Medicine v. Psychology--a deliberation

[Manicsleep]

My old roomate got into a DO program w/ a 26. I'm still not sure how she swung it. I guess she was an outlier.

Anecdotal evidence...

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[loveoforganic]

The MCAT has two sections that require a firm grasp of concepts from gen chem, organic, physics, and gen bio. In those two sections, there's not too much direct "spit back" of that knowledge, but application of it. I.e. they give you a passage that teaches you a topic you generally wouldn't know about, but should be able to comprehend based on what you know, then apply that. The third section you don't really study for (verbal reasoning).

I don't know how that compares to GRE subject tests; haven't taken any.

As far as D.O. school admission stats, this is what SDN has compiled

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=598056

 

[krisrox]

The MCAT has two sections that require a firm grasp of concepts from gen chem, organic, physics, and gen bio. In those two sections, there's not too much direct "spit back" of that knowledge, but application of it. I.e. they give you a passage that teaches you a topic you generally wouldn't know about, but should be able to comprehend based on what you know, then apply that. The third section you don't really study for (verbal reasoning).

I don't know how that compares to GRE subject tests; haven't taken any.

As far as D.O. school admission stats, this is what SDN has compiled

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=598056

Thanks for the link! I do want to point out, though, that it's a couple years old, so stats would most likely be more competetive for this next year's entering class.

 

[Daftrage]

They've done it, likely, by working hard. The path is scripted. It's a very direct path from A to 6 figure income, probably one of the easier ways to accomplish it (guarantee it). It doesn't take elite ability to do it (see stats above). Therefore, it is an obvious accessible route. This is a good thing.

I don't think you have any comprehension to how difficult it is to get to the point of a practicing physician. Your first two years are very scripted and so are part of your 3rd and 4th year. But how scripted do you think it is when your on call and someone on your unit starts having chest pain. That is all your told. You have to compile a large deal of knowledge and quickly figure out what is going on because their life could be on the line and the treatment you choose could save their life or waste precious time they may need to survive. Where is the script for that? What in graduate psychology school compares to that?

In addition, until you have been through it you have no idea how difficult this process is. I worked with many Clinical Psychology PhD students for 2 years doing research in undergrad and my father in law is a practing psychologist with a PhD. We have talked at lengths at how our experience is much more intensive and requires more sacrifices. Find me another field that requires 12 years of post-highschool training and had to cap their work week at 80 hours because it was routine to exceed that.

 

[Manicsleep]

Yes, yes. 8,000 would give you about 200. That would be a large high school, no doubt. I wasn't trying to be precise. But, if we're going for precision, and we think about where medical students and PhD students are generally coming from, the bell curve shifts a bit. Socioeconomic status changes things. For example, if say both of someone's parents were professors, this would confer a significant advantage, regardless of raw ability, over someone coming from a home with uneducated parents. Regardless of that, I'm not sure exactly what your point is; it doesn't take a 130+ IQ to get through medical school.


That wasn't a joke; it was a notation of your poor grammar in the context of a feeble attempt to slam me. I'm not sure why you're hostile to my position. Is it because I said medical school is not elite? Is this is some sort of ego defense? The stats loveoforganic just posted support my contention. Getting in the door (finishing medical school, getting through residency) is nice, but that's only the beginning, and many, many people have accomplished that. They've done it, likely, by working hard. The path is scripted. It's a very direct path from A to 6 figure income, probably one of the easier ways to accomplish it (guarantee it). It doesn't take elite ability to do it (see stats above). Therefore, it is an obvious accessible route. This is a good thing.

Can you show me some public high schools in one city with 8000+ kids since they are so "run of the mill" as you say. Also 8K still wouldn't on average give you even 200 geniuses.

Also, why do you keep posting about medicine not having to require genius? Who are you correcting? I see not a single comment that states genius is required to get in to medical school. If you were correcting me, I was stating that because several people do something, it doesn't make it a low bar. For example, given the world population there are well over a 100 million geniuses. Nonetheless, it isn't a low bar. Same goes with running a marathon etc. Also, medical school is a very high bar. It takes intelligence, social skills, determination and physical fortitude (you can be fat, but you better be willing to stay awake for 30 hours every 4th day).

The stats support that med schools are scripted, easy to accomplish and don't require creativity? Or was your contention something else entirely?

You are actually correcting grammar on a forum? U r crazee funee!!!

Ego defense? LOL. Diagnosing over the internet again? Bad psychologist! Bad! BTW, do you often find yourself making associations that other people don't make? Like the genius-medicine thing?

Ahhh high school classes with 8000 kids are "run of the mill" to you, medicine is easy, scripted and doesn't require creativity and you like to correct grammar/diagnose on forums. I like you psychologist types.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

I'm sorry but the Mcat is significantly harder then the GRE. Open up a GRE practice book and a Mcat practice book. While again this is comparing apples to oranges. The mcat tests arguable things which are hierarchic in nature ( 1 thing happens and then another thing happens or step 1 to step 2 to step 3.) The Gre does not possess such.
So I would plainly say that again. For one person the Psych GRE might be the worst thing ever and the mcat might be easier for them.
But in most cases if you can do well on the mcat ( Mcat success is almost completely based off of self study) then you can do well on the GRE.

 

[twilson]

Can we get back to the OP's original question instead of continuing a pointless debate on which is harder to do or get into?

 

[Daftrage]

Snow,

It appears to me that you are on the outside looking in. Just because you round with a team, which I am assuming is a psych team, doesn't mean you know what it is like to be a medical student/physician. You have no more knowledge of what it takes to be a physician than a nurse, tech, ect. There is a huge difference in looking through that glass and living in it.

Things are also not scripted. During medicine my reading consisted of giving me a book and tell me to read for 3 hours a night. I was also asked to prepare whatever a topic relating to a medical issue with one of my patients. That was my instruction and I was required to pick my issue, do my research, and prepare a presentation to the team. I did this every other day for days.

I don't want to tell you where the people I know went to school because it would kind of pin point me, but it was a good, accredited school with a good reputation. All of those I worked with graduated in 4-5 years and found an internship. 2 went to clinic, 1 went to a university and 1 splits his time as a part time clinic and part time teaching at a college. One of them seriously considered going to medical school but decided he could not go through the long grueling process. Those were his words not mine.

 

[somedude14]

This thread has gotten ridiculous. I still don't see why all these medical students are bashing Jon Snow. He's been an advocate for medical school even over clinical psychology.

It is amusing to read some of these internet attacks though

 

[Manicsleep]

Snow,

It appears to me that you are on the outside looking in. Just because you round with a team, which I am assuming is a psych team, doesn't mean you know what it is like to be a medical student/physician. You have no more knowledge of what it takes to be a physician than a nurse, tech, ect. There is a huge difference in looking through that glass and living in it.

Things are also not scripted. During medicine my reading consisted of giving me a book and tell me to read for 3 hours a night. I was also asked to prepare whatever a topic relating to a medical issue with one of my patients. That was my instruction and I was required to pick my issue, do my research, and prepare a presentation to the team. I did this every other day for days.

Agreed. I have been taught by psychologists.
I have also had psychologist faculty colleagues who taught med students, residents and fellows. No matter how skilled the psychologist, they will never understand what it means to be a med student, resident or practicing physician.

Some them are bitter and wish they would/could have been physicians but most understand that their world is relatively different. Also they are the elite of their own field while the psychiatrists that they deal with are "run of the mill" but often times their equals.

 

[Manicsleep]

I still don't understand your hostility. I agreed 8K would be a very large high school. Where I grew up 5000-6000 wasn't unheard of.

"Run of the mill" --> That phrase doesn't mean what you think it means grasshoppa!

You made a comment about there being millions of geniuses, I suggested that there are many in your average middle and high schools (by the implied definition you are using. . . I disagree on the "genius" label).

Implied defintion? There is nothing implied about a normative distribution. It is a mathematical equation. Ask one of your psychiatry colleagues to teach you some statistics.

The creativity issue is a tangent. But, now that you mention it, most of medicine relies on convergent reasoning. The classes generally don't consist of lots of open ended questions. It is a knowledge cram (medical school). It isn't easy to accomplish in that it takes lots of time and hard work, but it is accessible because it is scripted (somewhat uniform in terms of admittance requirement) and does not require elite ability to gain entrance. These qualities make it among the easier paths to attaining a high income level. . . because other fields don't have the same average incomes/high starting incomes coming out of school (or whatever the barrier of entry is) and it's not always immediately clear how to achieve a high salary. For example, lawyers can make a lot of money, but the average income is well below that of a physician. The barrier of entry in terms of intellectual aptitude is about the same. Getting to the big dollars is more of a challenge. And, the competition level to get there is significantly harder. Do you really disagree with that?

Yes, i disagree. You keep focusing on medical school classes but you have no concept of call. There is very little uniformity in medical school classes. They are actually very diverse (40% non science majors etc) and the minimal numerical qualities are just a part of the picture. These qualities make medicine so successful.
Lawyers don't have the same intellectual aptitude. It is probably higher than that of a clinical psychologist but there are a lot of really poor schools around the country (my wife is an attorney) that will let just about anyone in. Passing the bar exam is not nationalized.
So if you have passed the bar on your first try and done well in a competetive state it is a very high likelyhood that you will achieve a salary similar to that of a physician or higher.

If I had it to do over again, I'd probably go to medical school. Performing at the same chunk of the bell curve as I am currently would yield more money for me as a physician. Further, the competition level is substantially lower. Doing it this way (my way) is an unnecessary struggle given the presence of the medical school route. I'm not saying it's particularly difficult or that I'm especially elite. I'm not. But, I see advantages to the medical school route that would afford some interesting opportunities that require a bit more effort/sacrifice to attain from the angle I have taken.

Ahh grasshopper, lets not talk about your chunks.

 

[psich]

There's no reason to bash anyone here. It's clear that peoples' opinions differ regarding medicine and medical school. A caustic attitude does nothing to help the discussion and I think this thread is taking a detour that may do more harm than good. Let's agree to respect each other's opinions and move on.

 

[somedude14]

This thread was originally based on a question of career paths. If I was debating between medicine and clinical psych I would see how angry and bitter med students come off and that may sway my decision

 

[Daftrage]

Well I have not tried to be caustic and don't really think that my comments are. I also recognized that Snow is showing my field respect in some ways, I just disagree with his view of what medical school is. I feel I have more experience in this in that I am actually in this process and he is not and has not.

 

[Manicsleep]

I am just really euphoric that the world cup is on.
Possibly some potent potables persuading my posts.

Read my first few posts and you can see where I stand. However, its funny that the psychologists don't regulate on themselves though but are very quick to point out mistakes by medical posters. Just an observation.

Any english people out there?
Go USA!

 

[Manicsleep]

Your implied definition = top 2.5% of the population as measured by IQ tests = genius. I disagree that the word genius should be applied in that manner. Take creativity as an example. There have been many very creative scientists. A long time ago, a researcher decided to follow "geniuses" over time (children that scored > 2 SD above the mean on an IQ test). The most successful one tested, a fellow that won the nobel prize in physics was not followed because he scored around 1.5 SD above the mean on the IQ test. Who was the "genius" again? Hmm. . .

Don't care if you disagree. I am not debating how the word genius should or shouldn't be used. My point has nothing to do with success of genius in real world. Because you use anecdotal evidence out of some test doesn't mean anything to me. It has been shown that higher IQ is positively correlated with success. Its not everything but it certainly helps. But thats not the point.

The point is that you spout off with preposterous posts. Your "run of the mill" high schools are not 10,000 people in population. I have NEVER seen a high school like this. You then followed this by saying that you meant a high school with only 8k population and I asked you to produce one and you said that 5-6k schools are common where you are from. I asked you to produce a city where this was commonplace and you didn't.

You keep throwing out numbers and evidence that are false. Then you claim to be an "elite" clinical psychologist.
You perceive me not allowing your falsehoods to paint the landscape concerning medicine to be hostility. Climb over that green monster.

As far as the rest of your post.
You thinking i'm wrong may just be a compliment.
I am not about to be side tracked into a lawyer vs medicine debate.
The average clinical psychologist is not the same as the average psychiatrist. It may not be PC on this forum but its the absolute truth.
You can't get a medical degree online and legally practice. That says it all.

 

[PickMePickMe]

This thread was originally based on a question of career paths. If I was debating between medicine and clinical psych I would see how angry and bitter med students come off and that may sway my decision

Agreed. I'm honestly disgusted by some of the comments that actively attack individual posters and disparage other professions by pulling invalid comparisons. And yes, it definitely gives an ugly face to the group and confirms some negative stereotypes.

 

[Buzzwordsoldier]

This thread has gotten ridiculous. I still don't see why all these medical students are bashing Jon Snow. He's been an advocate for medical school even over clinical psychology.

It is amusing to read some of these internet attacks though

It truly is the age of fallen heroes. Our kinder, gentler J.Snow has been old school out-Snowed by manicsleep. Manicsleep -- perhaps the name explains the seeming lack of social graces and double standards (I especially like "Whatever your experience as a professor, you don't know a thing about the challenges you'd face being on call. I, however, I know about the stresses of being a PhD since my parents had PhDs."). Social skills may be necessary for success in med school and beyond, but I think manicsleep's been skipping those classes.

 

[Manicsleep]

Say whatever you want.
I won't have my profession disparaged unfairly.

Hypocrisy is beautiful though.

No self policing. Consistent berating of medicine. Out of context posting.

So I am not really up for it.
"On average" it is more difficult to become a doctor than a psychologist. As psychiatrists, we are psychologists AND physicians. If you have a problem with that, too bad. The earth is round, evolution is real etc etc etc.

It is kind of like politics. What is considered liberal these days is really center-right. When a "pro-medicine" position is posited here, it is really a pro-psychology position with some medical viewpoints thrown in.

I used to be pro-psychology. I wanted psychology prescribing rights. Another one bites the dust.

Nice use of emoticons though.

 

[futureapppsy2]

As psychiatrists, we are psychologists AND physicians. If you have a problem with that, too bad. The earth is round, evolution is real etc etc etc

Mental health training alone does not equal psychology. Therapy training alone does not equal psychology. They are very important aspects of psychology, yes, but psychology training is--or should be--a lot broader than that, even in clinical programs (advanced research design, stats, test construction, understanding of social and developmental psych phenomena, etc., etc). Psychiatrists are no doubt well-trained in the treatment of psychiatric/psychological and medical disorders, but that is not all of psychology or even all of clinical psychology.

No self policing

Have you read any other debate thread on this form? There's PLENTY of self-policing here. Even on this thread, there are psych students agreeing with you that the MCAT is more difficult than the GRE, agreeing that med school is harder to get into, etc.

 

[jnine]

I've been following at home, interested to learn a bit more about all this and enjoying the discussion. It's clear that Manicsleep is unable to carry on this conversation. Sure he's more than capable, but it's obvious that he wants to press buttons and irritate people more than anything else. Maybe a professional wants to pick up where he left off.

 

[Daftrage]

Your implied definition = top 2.5% of the population as measured by IQ tests = genius. I disagree that the word genius should be applied in that manner. Take creativity as an example. There have been many very creative scientists. A long time ago, a researcher decided to follow "geniuses" over time (children that scored > 2 SD above the mean on an IQ test). The most successful one tested, a fellow that won the nobel prize in physics was not followed because he scored around 1.5 SD above the mean on the IQ test. Who was the "genius" again? Hmm. . .




I think you're wrong.



. . .also wrong.

The only sure shot of besting a physician for a lawyer is big law (in terms of income). To do that requires, generally attendance at a top 15 law school. The barrer of entry for a top 15 law school is far greater than your average medical school. Of course, there are other paths to money for a lawyer and many from average law schools can do very well, but that path requires things like networking/politics which are not necessary to make a 6 figure income as a physician.

As far as your ranking of the professions, that's your general impression, but I don't think it has much of a place in reality. It's not really relevant in any case. I think, at equal levels of aptitude, that medicine has the biggest payout at the mean level. Now, if you're an uber smart physician and you go into a geeky discipline (e.g., neurology), the uber smart lawyer may best you many times over in terms of earnings. But, the elite are not what we're talking about here.

If you can be average in medicine or average in law or average in clinical psychology, the best choice is medicine because it is an easier path. Graduate last in your class in medical school, screw around in residency (but still finish) at some podunk hospital and you will make 6 figures. Graduate last in your class in law school and screw around on clerk ships = unemployed. Same thing for psychology.

I really disagree in regards to your comparison of lawyers. Not real sure where this comes from anyway but that is a huge oversimplification. What do you even mean by "big law?" Are you meaning corporate, tax, medical malpractice, ect. And I can promise you that you don't need to graduate from a top 15 school. I have a friend who is graduating from a school that is no where near top 15 and has a job starting out next year for 85,000 in tax law. That is his starting income and most associates who put in 5 years are making >125,000. This is in one of the poorest states of the country.

You are also incorrect about someone who screws around in medical school and residency just magically landing a six figure income job. Your reputation is huge in medicine. Over 80% of physicians will find a job withing 200 miles of their residency. If you suck in medical school and in residency, people within 200 miles will know. That job will not be easy to find. And if you don't think that you can get fired in residency you are also mistaken. And getting fired can be dang close to a death sentence because very few programs would ever consider you, which means you are essentially left to do a desk job for insurance companies.

I am not attacking you, I just think you have the simplistic view of the route to becoming a physician. I think it is a good route that does have a brighter, more stable future than almost all fields. You just don't understand how difficult it is to actually achieve.

 

[Manicsleep]

People keep saying I am nasty. I just don't go for this hidden, weak aggressiveness. You have something to say, say it.

Apparently, you do. Further, you seem to see it as disparagement. Curious.

Weak.
I care how my field is portrayed. That is different than caring if you don't understand something or caring about you in general. Still curious?

Seem to be. . .What did you say. . . it's a matter of statistics?

Nice, thats a little bit better in terms of aggression, my daughters puppy might look twice.

The answer is that its semantics.
The statistical part is how many people out of a population would be geniuses. You are trying to make this into a semantic argument even though initially you argued the statistical part. You were wrong, I was right.
I won't go over with this again with you.

You need to take a course but read up on this first. Don't get anything the hard science guys get though.

No, I didn't. In agreeing with the results of my sloppy word choice in an online forum (~ a couple of hundred), I conceded that 8,000 students would be required to hit that number, not that I meant 8000 when I made the statement, I didn't.

No, I didn't. Because, it's a boring tangent. But, many big cities have high schools of this size.

Now that we are down to 5-6k as far as schools go, you still back off. 6k schools are not "run of the mill" high schools in the United States. The point here has nothing to do with schools. It is that you make statements that are falsehoods and then concede some lame point about them. You need to accept that you are wrong.

Actually, I claimed the opposite. Pay attention, lad.

You claim to be the opposite of elite? Really?
I think your memory is going.

My training has been very good, at least in my view. I have trained with some of the most well known researchers and clinicians in the country (in my area of expertise) including both physicians and other researchers.

Opposite --> That word does not mean what you think it means.

Unless its a new definition of "good" the kids are saying these days. Kinda like "not good as in good but good as in bad" You know, the "opposite" of RunDMC.

BTW you wanted me to point out falsehoods right?

Falsehoods? Name one. Hint: You can't, because I didn't make any.

 

[Daftrage]

Almost any professional job, if you get fired, you're in big trouble. That's not a uniquely medical issue.




. . . or perhaps, you have a simplistic view of what it takes to be successful in psychology (or other fields). I'm not saying becoming a physician is easy. I'm saying for effort expended, level of talent required, it is a field that has a stability in terms of route and access to good jobs (6 figures +) that other fields at equal levels of talent and effort do not enjoy. Sure, you can fail as a physician. I've tested plenty of medical students who weren't quite bright enough, not quite sane enough, or not persistent enough, to be in medical school. That is a horrible outcome because of the student loans. Get to year 3 of medical school and bomb out? Ouch! But, that's a very low percentage of people.

Regarding law, the field is saturated. Big law is defined by the size of firms. These are the firms that hire, traditionally, 1st year lawers at $150,000 a year plus. Law is a much more risky venture than medical school even if you have superior ability. You have a friend starting at 85K, that's nice. I have a friend that graduated from a middle tier law school who makes 500K+. But, that's not a straight line path. His skills are political and in his ability to present (trial lawyer). This is a game that physicians don't have to play.

I didn't say getting fired was uniquely medicine. You made it seem like you could be terrible for your entire medical school and residency and still land a 6 figure job. That is another huge oversimplification and many of those people are the ones who burn out and never get a job in medicine.

My friend is going to a firm with 10 lawyers. I don't consider that a big firm, esp if I compare it to the other law firms in the area. Most of the big firms where I am from only pay around 60,000 starting out and you have to work very hard for at least 4-5 years to make a serious income. My wife is looking for a job as a newly minted JD so I have a firm grasp on what you make starting out at different firms and your statement of going into big law from a top 15 school is another huge oversimplification and not accurate. Many lawyers make greater than 6 figures after 5 years (standardizing the extra year of med school and a 4 year residency) who are not at a big firm and didn't graduate from a top 15 school.

I am not oversimplifying other fields. My wife is in law school and I am in medical school. I know both of these fields well. I worked in a clinical psychology program for 2 years doing an Honors Thesis this gave me a good look at what that field takes.. What I have realized from all of these experiences is that I can gain an idea of what it takes to be in anther field but you have no idea until you live it. That is something I don't think you realize.

 

[PickMePickMe]

Hey OP, I would now like to propose that you apply for medicine instead of clinical psychology. Can you imagine being an allied health professional and having to work with MDs who will always look upon your work as a subset of a psychiatrist's duties and consider your training to have been inferior to theirs? And pull the "you-have-no-idea-what-medicine-is-like" card whenever you correct them, while asserting they know enough about your work because of their undergraduate thesis/parents?

Judging by this thread, I'd say you'd have no problem excelling in the verbal reasoning section of the MCAT.

 

[psich]

“The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits.” – Albert Einstein

I think that we can add arrogance to that list, too.

Jon, please don’t engage these people. Their behavior alone speaks to their character.

 

[AlaskanJustin]

What I see is that there are lots of smart, good people in many roles that overlap in providing healthcare and advancing our state of knowledge. There are several routes to existing in this world. The most straight forward route is to get an MD because it is the most organized. The risks to that route include lots of debt, boredom from focus on barely relevant material for large chunks of time, and lack of formal research education (if that is your interest). Another good route would be the MD, PhD. That is a whole other animal and is a higher hurdle. But, it pays for medical school (and the PhD) at a reasonable level at many locations. I think the PhD in clinical psychology can be an effective route. Certainly, the material is interesting and useful. There is potential for good money. But, it's like any academic degree. A PhD is a very different animal than a professional degree like the MD. There is risk. If you do it correctly, there is no debt. The finances between the degrees must be carefully considered. So, if you're a student considering medicine or clinical psychology, consider the finances, know that clinical psychology will be a more difficult route (depending on your goals) in some respects in ways that it will be challenging to assert control (supply and demand issues within the field, insurance reimbursement problems, etc. . .).

I like this for the most part. Mostly concise, could be tightened a little and maybe add a line or two, but for the most part says precisely what I try to tell people. Not everyone is the type of person that can do one or the other, let alone both. Yes I recognize everyone seems to have an anecdote of a person that can, but those are the exceptions.

People ask me, why did I not do medicine, I mean hell I beat the punch and got in, I would be through year one by now. My most honest answer is not wanting to be stuck with anymore debt than I already have. There are SO MANY fine prints when it comes back to loan reimbursements etc. Me for instance would have to do the residency and post-doc specialty training, THEN go back to my state of residence and work 4-6 years doing something most likely unrelated to my speciality... by the time I could do what I want I would be in my mid 30s making rubbish.

Anyways the last bit of what you posted is nice.

 

[Daftrage]

Snow,

I have been respectful with you. Just because Manic is harsh on you don't take it out on me. My logic in the last statement, if you actually care to try and follow, is that I have been involved in other graduate fields in various ways. In doing so I have gained a certain knowledge of that process. But the kicker, and pay attention here, is that this knowledge is extremely limited because I have never actually been through it myself. That is the ONLY way you ever know what it takes, absolutely nothing else will suffice. Unlike you, I am not coming here saying I know what it takes to get through a clinical psychology program like you are with medicine. If that wasn't clear before (which looking back at that post I could see some confusion) it should be now. I don't know what your field is like to practice, you don't know mine, and neither one of us knows law. Will you agree with that or would you like to insist that you know what medical school is like more than I do?

And I agree with your last paragraph. That sounds much better than medical school and residency being a cookie cutter path with low risks.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Thankfully the medical people I work with on a daily basis are better informed and act like professionals, unlike some of the posters in here. I'm currently traveling, though I'll comment when I have some time later in the day/week.

 

[passionist]

One interesting cross-over option is becoming a psychiatric nurse practitioner. The job options and roles for this career track continue to expand, it attracts an interesting array of individuals and it has the potential to be both lucrative and flexible in ways that used to be true of clinical psychology. It definitely incorporates elements of medicine and psychology as they've been defined traditionally.

But... like most master level practitioner, psychiatric nurse practitioner(PMHNP) are not allowed to do psychological testing. They are still marginalized in inpatient setting and hired mainly for medication management/diagnosis. PMHNPs are reimbursed at the rate of social worker for psychotherapy (1/2 of what psychologists would make per hour.) I also know very few PMHNP in private practice. Can they get trained in at psychoanalytic institutes though to increase their psychotherapy skill? Do the institutes only admit MD/PsyD/PhD?
You said that flexibility is used to be true for clinical psych? Not anymore?

I don't think PMHNP can do anything more than clinical psych except medication management, physical assessment, and ability to order tests, labs etc? So if psychologist get prescriptive authority, they will become extinct very fast (unless they can prove the quality of DNP curriculum to the public)?

 

[loveoforganic]

I disagree. Physicians can do everything nurses do, but nurses are still hired because they're more cost effective playing certain roles. I doubt psych nurses would disappear regardless of the success of the rxp movement.

 

[passionist]

I disagree. Physicians can do everything nurses do, but nurses are still hired because they're more cost effective playing certain roles. I doubt psych nurses would disappear regardless of the success of the rxp movement.

My point is that hospitals and patients probably prefer RxP because of their ability to do psych testings and their more advanced training in psychotherapy (and higher reimbursement rate). I don't think psych NP will become extinct but there will be less demand.

 

[docma]

This offers an interesting alternative view on how psychology has failed to see what nursing has seen about how to enter the behavioral health care market. I think nurse practioners will continue to maintain an important niche in community health practice that psychologists overlooked (and that clients welcome)

http://www.psychotherapy.net/interview/Nick_Cummings