Minorities apply to twice as many residency programs

[chronicidal]

According to AAMC data, among US medical students, Asians, blacks, and Hispanics apply to over twice as many residency programs on ERAS on average compared to white students. This holds for all the specialties that are big enough to have enough minority applicants to consider statistical comparisons valid (n>25-30 per group). I have no idea why. Speculation anyone?

Source: http://bit.ly/1zqsu9J

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[JP2740]

so?

 

[Psai]

I don't understand the table

 

[FIREitUP]

According to AAMC data, among US medical students, Asians, blacks, and Hispanics apply to over twice as many residency programs on ERAS on average compared to white students. This holds for all the specialties that are big enough to have enough minority applicants to consider statistical comparisons valid (n>25-30 per group). I have no idea why. Speculation anyone?

Source: http://bit.ly/1zqsu9J

1) Since when are asians minorities in the medical field?

2) Perhaps with blacks and hispanics, the less stringent admissions criteria leads to less strong students being accepted. these students would then need to apply to more programs to match because the didn't magically become better students after going to medical school.

 

[chronicidal]

so?

There are two ways of looking at implications: what are the causes, and what are the effects?

Causes: are minorities applying to more programs because they are advised to do so by faculty or peers, because they perceive that they are less competitive, because they fear they will be discriminated against, because they are more willing to go to different locations or caliber of programs, because they are more risk-averse, because they can afford it? These questions influence how to advise students applying to residencies.

Effects: when controlling for higher application number, are minorities matching at rates similar to whites, matching to their top choices as often, interviewing at as many places, spending as much money and time away from the fourth year curriculum?

1) Since when are asians minorities in the medical field?

Asians are typically defined as non-underrepresented minorities (NURM), where the "non" modifies "underrepresented" rather than "minority". Insofar as whites comprise the majority, Asians are a minority. There was a letter in JAMA this year that mentioned how grouping Asians with whites in workforce analyses is not really appropriate and sweeps under the rug the problems that Asians might face in particular in ascending the ladder of academic medicine. Source: http://bit.ly/1l2lRTG

 

[FIREitUP]

There are two ways of looking at implications: what are the causes, and what are the effects?

Causes: are minorities applying to more programs because they are advised to do so by faculty or peers, because they perceive that they are less competitive, because they fear they will be discriminated against, because they are more willing to go to different locations or caliber of programs, because they are more risk-averse, because they can afford it? These questions influence how to advise students applying to residencies.

Effects: when controlling for higher application number, are minorities matching at rates similar to whites, matching to their top choices as often, interviewing at as many places, spending as much money and time away from the fourth year curriculum?



Asians are typically defined as non-underrepresented minorities (NURM), where the "non" modifies "underrepresented" rather than "minority". Insofar as whites comprise the majority, Asians are a minority. There was a letter in JAMA this year that mentioned how grouping Asians with whites in workforce analyses is not really appropriate and sweeps under the rug the problems that Asians might face in particular in ascending the ladder of academic medicine. Source: http://bit.ly/1l2lRTG

thanks for citing the source. you're doing something similar by lumping asian people (over-represented) with blacks and hispanics (under-represented). i would say that asians are more dissimilar credential-wise when compared to blacks and hispanics than they are compared to whites.

 

[SplenoMegastar]

I will never understand why people start threads about race on this site. It always just ends up being super uncomfortable. If people here get rowdy over what percentage of FM docs are working in ERs then why the frick would this lead to a productive conversation.

 

[tima]

I will never understand why people start threads about race on this site.

OP has an agenda.

 

[WingedOx]

I will never understand why people start threads about race on this site. It always just ends up being super uncomfortable. If people here get rowdy over what percentage of FM docs are working in ERs then why the frick would this lead to a productive conversation.

God forbid that people talk about uncomfortable subjects. Doctors simply don't do such things.

 

[SplenoMegastar]

God forbid that people talk about uncomfortable subjects. Doctors simply don't do such things.

It's fine to talk about uncomfortable things when they're productive conversations, and it's a waste of time and frustrating when it's unproductive. For an example, read your post.

 

[WingedOx]

Please.

Racial issues are ever-present in medicine, especially for those in practicing urban settings. Better to have a discussion in the safe (though occasionally sarcastic and trollish) SDN forums than pretend they don't exist. There ARE legitimately constructive intelligent discussions that happen on these forums before the first "I'm a suburban-raised white libertarian and pointing out racial disparities offends my political beliefs!" posts start popping up.

 

[JP2740]

There are two ways of looking at implications: what are the causes, and what are the effects?

Causes: are minorities applying to more programs because they are advised to do so by faculty or peers, because they perceive that they are less competitive, because they fear they will be discriminated against, because they are more willing to go to different locations or caliber of programs, because they are more risk-averse, because they can afford it? These questions influence how to advise students applying to residencies.

Effects: when controlling for higher application number, are minorities matching at rates similar to whites, matching to their top choices as often, interviewing at as many places, spending as much money and time away from the fourth year curriculum?



Asians are typically defined as non-underrepresented minorities (NURM), where the "non" modifies "underrepresented" rather than "minority". Insofar as whites comprise the majority, Asians are a minority. There was a letter in JAMA this year that mentioned how grouping Asians with whites in workforce analyses is not really appropriate and sweeps under the rug the problems that Asians might face in particular in ascending the ladder of academic medicine. Source: http://bit.ly/1l2lRTG

so?

 

[Dave89]

Please.

Racial issues are ever-present in medicine, especially for those in practicing urban settings. Better to have a discussion in the safe (though occasionally sarcastic and trollish) SDN forums than pretend they don't exist. There ARE legitimately constructive intelligent discussions that happen on these forums before the first "I'm a suburban-raised white libertarian and pointing out racial disparities offends my political beliefs!" posts start popping up.

Be careful about opening conversations about racial disparities. You may find that some racial realities undermine the myths that perpetuate White guilt.

 

[ACSurgeon]

More important than what's quoted above is reporting data after adjusting for normal metrics (step 1 score, publications, school attended, etc etc).

Not saying racism does or doesn't exist, but if this is gonna be brought up we should be objective in our analysis.

 

[WingedOx]

Be careful about opening conversations about racial disparities. You may find that some racial realities undermine the myths that perpetuate White guilt.

which is especially true with the people with near MDs applying to residency as was the topic of this thread...



But yes, "white guilt"

 

[Dave89]

which is especially true with the people with near MDs applying to residency as was the topic of this thread...



But yes, "white guilt"

It was a response to the last sentence of your last post. I will not continue this line of conversation unless others do.

 

[colbgw02]

I'm a suburban-raised white libertarian and pointing out racial disparities offends my political beliefs.

 

[chronicidal]

thanks for citing the source. you're doing something similar by lumping asian people (over-represented) with blacks and hispanics (under-represented). i would say that asians are more dissimilar credential-wise when compared to blacks and hispanics than they are compared to whites.

You're right. My real questions are actually two-fold:
1) Why do Asian medical students from US MD schools apply to twice as many programs as their white peers?
2) Why do black and Hispanic medical students from US MD schools apply to twice as many programs as their white peers?

I reckon that there are different answers for these questions, but I asked them as one question for brevity's sake.

Unless the answer boils down to, as others have suggested, white privilege.

 

[W19]

Are they taking my spot in residency, too?

 

[gapyearguppy]

You're right. My real questions are actually two-fold:
1) Why do Asian medical students from US MD schools apply to twice as many programs as their white peers?
2) Why do black and Hispanic medical students from US MD schools apply to twice as many programs as their white peers?

I reckon that there are different answers for these questions, but I asked them as one question for brevity's sake.

Unless the answer boils down to, as others have suggested, white privilege.

Why not group them up? The one thing that binds these three groups together outside of statistics and representation in medicine is that they're all racial minorities in the U.S. And I think that's an interesting concept to explore - but I don't know if bringing up white privilege on SDN where the majority of users are white is going to make for an interesting or civil conversation

 

[Lawgiver]

I will never understand why people start threads about race on this site. It always just ends up being super uncomfortable. If people here get rowdy over what percentage of FM docs are working in ERs then why the frick would this lead to a productive conversation.

Oh look, another member of the lets keep our heads in the sand ignorance is more comfortable movement.

 

[GunnerBMS]

#checkyourprivilege

 

[BestDoctorEver]

Oh look, another member of the lets keep our heads in the sand ignorance is more comfortable movement.

You think people should use SDN to post about every advantage or disadvantage that every ethnic group has in life...

 

[jakeislove]

You're right. My real questions are actually two-fold:
1) Why do Asian medical students from US MD schools apply to twice as many programs as their white peers?
2) Why do black and Hispanic medical students from US MD schools apply to twice as many programs as their white peers?

I reckon that there are different answers for these questions, but I asked them as one question for brevity's sake.

Unless the answer boils down to, as others have suggested, white privilege.

Perhaps it's something simple; like being open to more geographic locations.

Everything isn't always about race.

 

[DrBowtie]

Perhaps it's something simple; like being open to more geographic locations.

Everything isn't always about race.

Or applying to every program in NY or California to be closer to family.

 

[touchpause13]

I wonder if that type of shot gun approach for applying to residency is promoted at the historically black or PR schools, those account for a huge amount of minorities in medicine so that could be a factor as well

 

[Jabbed]

1) What are average step scores / AOA membership by race? (AOA used as a proxy for grades)
2) Are there geographic preferences that determine application behavior?
3) What caliber of school does the average [insert racial group] attend?

It is interesting though that the difference in number of applications between whites and non-whites is so substantial in nearly EVERY specialty from family medicine to derm.

 

[Jabbed]

There are diversity quotas for residency programs correct?

 

[IMPD]

There are diversity quotas for residency programs correct?

No. The ACGME/AAMC are all working to create a more diverse workforce. Whether you believe that diversity by itself is a good thing, the evidence seems to suggest that populations do better when cared for by doctors who come from their community. It's an interesting piece of the world that I wish we understood better.

How close "to the community" do doctors have to be to provide that "better care"? I don't know.

Since I train folks from many racial and ethnic backgrounds, I really wish I had more evidence to guide my training and understanding of how to teach cultural competency and whether that really improves patient outcomes.

 

[Jabbed]

No. The ACGME/AAMC are all working to create a more diverse workforce. Whether you believe that diversity by itself is a good thing, the evidence seems to suggest that populations do better when cared for by doctors who come from their community. It's an interesting piece of the world that I wish we understood better.

How close "to the community" do doctors have to be to provide that "better care"? I don't know.

Since I train folks from many racial and ethnic backgrounds, I really wish I had more evidence to guide my training and understanding of how to teach cultural competency and whether that really improves patient outcomes.

How are the ACGME/AAMC working to create a more diverse workforce without using quotas?

 

[DrOwnage]

I have always heard that race has no bearing on selective acceptance into residency programs. It makes sense at this point in the game people shouldn't have preferential selection since you've made it to the end of the road. In my opinion, it has to do with strength of application. At my school the faculty will suggest (in actuality they force you) to apply to more residencies than one would like. But it is your personal choice to actually go to the interviews you receive. I agree with the theory that people who get in to medical school with lower credentials for "diversity" criteria required by the NBME will have a harder time than students who have worked consistently harder than them to get in. I see it at my school and I'm sure anyone else does. Look at the AMC criteria on completion of medical school based on race and entering credentials. It's not racism. It's just the way the system works, and how qualified the individuals are.

 

[chronicidal]

I have always heard that race has no bearing on selective acceptance into residency programs. It makes sense at this point in the game people shouldn't have preferential selection since you've made it to the end of the road. In my opinion, it has to do with strength of application. At my school the faculty will suggest (in actuality they force you) to apply to more residencies than one would like. But it is your personal choice to actually go to the interviews you receive. I agree with the theory that people who get in to medical school with lower credentials for "diversity" criteria required by the NBME will have a harder time than students who have worked consistently harder than them to get in. I see it at my school and I'm sure anyone else does. Look at the AMC criteria on completion of medical school based on race and entering credentials. It's not racism. It's just the way the system works, and how qualified the individuals are.

the NBME? the AMC? what are you talking about?

 

[RJGOP]

I would just like to ask why the hell anyone cares that minorities are applying to more residency programs? So what?

As much as people are lead to believe, Blacks, Hispanics, Asians etc. are no longer discriminated against, in fact, in some cases they're are preferred to reinforce 'diversity' crap.

This doesn't prove that they are discriminated against. They just happen to apply more broadly for whatever reason.

 

[mcloaf]

As much as people are lead to believe, Blacks, Hispanics, Asians etc. are no longer discriminated against

What planet do you live on?

 

[josephpx]

who cares..

 

[PL198]

What planet do you live on?

yeah man minorities have it so hard with all the scholarships & lack of responsibility they have. oh the horror!

 

[Dave89]

Uh, oh.

 

[PlutoBoy]

yeah man minorities have it so hard with all the scholarships & lack of responsibility they have. oh the horror!

 

[WhippleWhileWeWork]

 

[mcloaf]

yeah man minorities have it so hard with all the scholarships & lack of responsibility they have. oh the horror!

Ah yes, SDN's Bill O'Reilly Jr. with insightful and well-considered social commentary as always.

 

[WhippleWhileWeWork]

Oh look, another member of the lets keep our heads in the sand ignorance is more comfortable movement.

To be fair, it's not as if an honest critical conversation can even be had. Sociology classes in this country had a bowel movement and gave us definitions and constructs that end the discussion before it can even start.

Only whites can be racists.
Whites either understand their privilege or they don't.
The amount that can be done to make reparations approaches infinity.

 

[RJGOP]

What planet do you live on?

I live on planet Earth. You live on planet 'brainwashed by liberal rhetoric.'

 

[Dave89]

I live on planet Earth. You live on planet 'brainwashed by liberal rhetoric.'

It's not as simple as "liberal" vs. "conservative."

 

[mcloaf]

I live on planet Earth. You live on planet 'brainwashed by liberal rhetoric.'

About the level of response I expected.

 

[PL198]

Ah yes, SDN's Bill O'Reilly Jr. with insightful and well-considered social commentary as always.

so instead of showing how minorities have it so hard in medical school, you just say that. pretty typical

 

[chronicidal]

so instead of showing how minorities have it so hard in medical school, you just say that. pretty typical

A review for you: http://1.usa.gov/1EamLYA

"URM students experienced less supportive social and less positive learning environments, were subjected to discrimination and racial harassment, and were more likely to see their race as having a negative impact on their medical school experiences than non-URM students. Academic performance on standardized exams was worse, progress less timely, and attrition higher for URM students as well."

 

[Dave89]

A review for you: http://1.usa.gov/1EamLYA

Some deconstruction is in order.

"URM students experienced less supportive social and less positive learning environments

I can only speak for today's environment, but any implication that this is an issue now is nothing but hogwash.

There are multiple clubs in my school advocating on the behalf of anyone but Whites, and there have been dozens of emails sent on behalf of "social justice", "diversity", and URM groups.

were subjected to discrimination and racial harassment

I would like to see the definitions used for these terms. Professional victims tend to have lower thresholds.

Academic performance on standardized exams was worse,

No kidding. Take a look at the racial differences in the MCAT scores of matriculating students.

progress less timely, and attrition higher for URM students as well."

Hmmm... makes you wonder whether there's a reason why certain groups are URM even with the benefits of said status.

 

[chronicidal]

When controlling for MCAT, blacks, Hispanics, and Asians all do worse on Step 1 than whites. Sources: http://1.usa.gov/13uHQMp http://bit.ly/1rfY1Z2 http://bit.ly/1x9jkLu

Would it be appropriate here to suggest checking one's privilege?

 

[PL198]

anyone that says check your privilege is unquestionably a douche. everyone has varying degrees of "privilege" so that stupid campaign is just a spotlight to detract away from the real factors at play. there are privileges URMs have that white kids don't, vice versa.

 

[redpanda]

there are privileges URMs have that white kids don't, vice versa.

Care to elaborate on some of these privileges which are so widely enjoyed by our large URM population?
Like being viewed as getting into medical school on the strength of their academic merits perhaps?