MS policy: students not permitted to work

[Oniononorion]

Hello all,

(I searched and was surprised to not be able to find anything on this so here goes)

I am a medical laboratory scientist (blood banker) of 6 years and will soon be applying to med school. The school’s policy is that nobody is permitted to work. My question is, what does this even mean?

I have never read or heard of anyone getting kicked out of med school for simply working a couple shifts a month if their grades are still excellent. Of course if I felt that I was struggling, I would have to pass on picking up shifts.

No doubt all schools treat this differently, but does anyone have any experience with the consequences of this type of policy? I couldn’t imagine they would skew their stats for the worse by kicking someone out for a couple shifts per month when they are performing excellently (if I am not performing excellently I won’t be working because my main goal is to be a knowledgeable physician).

I’m not asking the school because frankly I don’t want to give the impression that my focus is anywhere but succeeding in school (which is true).

TIA

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[deleted1011020]

Hello all,

(I searched and was surprised to not be able to find anything on this so here goes)

I am a medical laboratory scientist (blood banker) of 6 years and will soon be applying to med school. The school’s policy is that nobody is permitted to work. My question is, what does this even mean?

I have never read or heard of anyone getting kicked out of med school for simply working a couple shifts a month if their grades are still excellent. Of course if I felt that I was struggling, I would have to pass on picking up shifts.

No doubt all schools treat this differently, but does anyone have any experience with the consequences of this type of policy? I couldn’t imagine they would skew their stats for the worse by kicking someone out for a couple shifts per month when they are performing excellently (if I am not performing excellently I won’t be working because my main goal is to be a knowledgeable physician).

I’m not asking the school because frankly I don’t want to give the impression that my focus is anywhere but succeeding in school (which is true).

TIA

What would be the point of working?

 

[Oniononorion]

What would be the point of working?

Well ideally the thought will not even cross my mind, because I should have barely enough in savings to supplement a little bit to maintain our modest living standard (read: trying to live in a metro apartment without bugs or violent surroundings) while my wife works part time. However I have two children <4 years old and my wife will not make even close to what I currently make as she is HS diploma only. So you never know.

 

[deleted1011020]

Well ideally the thought will not even cross my mind, because I should have barely enough in savings to supplement a little bit to maintain our modest living standard (read: trying to live in a metro apartment without bugs or violent surroundings) while my wife works part time. However I have two children

Its going to be much more expensive if you don't succeed in an SMP. Id try to just pull loans to help support your family etc if possible. If not maybe someone can chime in on their experience working while doing an SMP but I don’t think youll find any.

 

[Oniononorion]

Its going to be much more expensive if you don't succeed in an SMP. Id try to just pull loans to help support your family etc if possible. If not maybe someone can chime in on their experience working while doing an SMP but I don’t think youll find any.

No SMP involved. Just the medical school’s policy, so MS1-4 only.

 

[Ultimax]

If its the school policy, its the end of argument. You cant possibly win considering that the school owns you till you graduate.

 

[Oniononorion]

True but I simply wonder if anyone has ever heard of any school that actually enforces this policy, considering so many students have even worked 20 hours / week through most of med school and done well.

 

[Cornfed101]

considering so many students have even worked 20 hours / week through most of med school and done well.

Lol, proof? I’ve never heard of anyone working 20 hours a week while in med school

 

[Oniononorion]

Well geez, I don’t know the people, it’s from non-reputable sources such as the student doctor network forums. The # of hours isn’t the point Mr. Letter of the Law, the OP is asking for instances where some disciplinary action has been taken due to ANY work for a school with a no-work policy.

 

[Doctoscope]

You haven't even applied to med schools yet and you're worrying about working in school? lol

 

[Goro]

Hello all,

(I searched and was surprised to not be able to find anything on this so here goes)

I am a medical laboratory scientist (blood banker) of 6 years and will soon be applying to med school. The school’s policy is that nobody is permitted to work. My question is, what does this even mean?

I have never read or heard of anyone getting kicked out of med school for simply working a couple shifts a month if their grades are still excellent. Of course if I felt that I was struggling, I would have to pass on picking up shifts.

No doubt all schools treat this differently, but does anyone have any experience with the consequences of this type of policy? I couldn’t imagine they would skew their stats for the worse by kicking someone out for a couple shifts per month when they are performing excellently (if I am not performing excellently I won’t be working because my main goal is to be a knowledgeable physician).

I’m not asking the school because frankly I don’t want to give the impression that my focus is anywhere but succeeding in school (which is true).

TIA

The med school is trying to help you. Being a med student is a full time job, and I've seen first hand what happens to students who get too distracted. They FAIL.

I had one student who thought that he could still consult as an OMS I. He failed the fall semester and had to repeat the year.

If the school has a policy, and you violate it, actions do have consequences. They wouldn't necessary dismiss someone for violating the policy, more likely the student would receive a warning. IF said student violated the policy again, that would lead to a visit the to professionalism committee, and even possibly sanctions like a suspension, or mention of this in Dean's letter.

A dismissal wouldn't affect a school's stats.

 

[deleted1011020]

....Mr. Letter of the Law, the OP is asking for instances where some disciplinary action has been taken due to ANY work for a school with a no-work policy.

I really hope you have nothing identifying on your profile whatsoever because I'd imagine these kind of statements and attitudes are not exactly something schools or patients want.

 

[MusicDOc124]

I think you're underestimating med school. Where do you think you'll find the time? I knew 4 people who worked during med school. 1 failed out. 1 ONLY worked 1 shift/mo at a job they previous had for years full time, and that 1 shift was only after exams, and they stopped after first semester realizing the small amount of money wasnt worth it compared to free time after an exam after studying so much. The other 2 were PAs previously who also only worked 1-2 shifts per month during 1st year.

 

[dpmd]

Hello all,

(I searched and was surprised to not be able to find anything on this so here goes)

I am a medical laboratory scientist (blood banker) of 6 years and will soon be applying to med school. The school’s policy is that nobody is permitted to work. My question is, what does this even mean?

I have never read or heard of anyone getting kicked out of med school for simply working a couple shifts a month if their grades are still excellent. Of course if I felt that I was struggling, I would have to pass on picking up shifts.

No doubt all schools treat this differently, but does anyone have any experience with the consequences of this type of policy? I couldn’t imagine they would skew their stats for the worse by kicking someone out for a couple shifts per month when they are performing excellently (if I am not performing excellently I won’t be working because my main goal is to be a knowledgeable physician).

I’m not asking the school because frankly I don’t want to give the impression that my focus is anywhere but succeeding in school (which is true).

TIA

The policy is the policy and potential consequences could include dismissal. I worked some during med school (as a nurse doing registry so I could pick and choose when I wanted to work) so I understand why you would want to. It is easy for people not considering their finances to say just take more loans but especially with a high paying flexible option it is nice to have less overall debt at graduation. However, it isn't worth the risk of getting kicked out. If you can find an school without that policy then fine, but I wouldn't simply ignore it because they might not check. That is the pathway to other more worrisome dishonesty that we don't want in the field so I would fully support a school that punished violation of the policy with expulsion.

 

[Oniononorion]

I really hope you have nothing identifying on your profile whatsoever because I'd imagine these kind of statements and attitudes are not exactly something schools or patients want.

You’re misreading. I am referring to the fact that this person I replied to is asking for sources about a completely irrelevant detail and wasn’t directed at anyone else, yourself included. The whole point was that I wanted to know if there was any reason to suggest that the policy was more than a suggestion.

While I appreciate further discussion not directly related to my question, I am well aware that I will be knee deep in studying 50 hours plus in med school and that is not the advice I am looking for.

And I do not appreciate the notion that this question is a sign of unprofessionalism. That couldn’t be further from the truth. The reason I am concerned is that I want to be 100% honest with the school and I am trying to get my ducks in a row well in advance, and I as of yet am not sure how they handle this....ie, do schools consider these policies a suggestion; are they dogmatically enforced?

I think these are honest, ethical questions.

 

[Cornfed101]

You’re misreading. I am referring to the fact that this person I replied to is asking for sources about a completely irrelevant detail and wasn’t directed at anyone else, yourself included. The whole point was that I wanted to know if there was any reason to suggest that the policy was more than a suggestion.

While I appreciate further discussion not directly related to my question, I am well aware that I will be knee deep in studying 50 hours plus in med school and that is not the advice I am looking for.

And I do not appreciate the notion that this question is a sign of unprofessionalism. That couldn’t be further from the truth. The reason I am concerned is that I want to be 100% honest with the school and I am trying to get my ducks in a row well in advance, and I as of yet am not sure how they handle this....ie, do schools consider these policies a suggestion; are they dogmatically enforced?

I think these are honest, ethical questions.

I don’t think it is unreasonable to ask the school how they would feel if you worked a small amount. The worst they can say is no, and then you know! I gawked at the 20 hours a week comment because that wouldn't be doable without a severe risk of failure, and it wouldn’t really matter if it were ethical because it would be unwise.

 

[dpmd]

You’re misreading. I am referring to the fact that this person I replied to is asking for sources about a completely irrelevant detail and wasn’t directed at anyone else, yourself included. The whole point was that I wanted to know if there was any reason to suggest that the policy was more than a suggestion.

While I appreciate further discussion not directly related to my question, I am well aware that I will be knee deep in studying 50 hours plus in med school and that is not the advice I am looking for.

And I do not appreciate the notion that this question is a sign of unprofessionalism. That couldn’t be further from the truth. The reason I am concerned is that I want to be 100% honest with the school and I am trying to get my ducks in a row well in advance, and I as of yet am not sure how they handle this....ie, do schools consider these policies a suggestion; are they dogmatically enforced?

I think these are honest, ethical questions.

Just to be clear, I don't think asking if they really mean their policy is unprofessional or unethical or whatever. It is a bit naive I suppose but that is ok. If they meant it as a suggestion they would state we advise students to not have outside jobs. In the absence of that kind of wording threat ot as a rule. Some rules are dumb and not following them isn't a big deal. You aren't at the right level to decide that though so it is best to follow even the rules you think are dumb.

 

[deleted480308]

You’re misreading. I am referring to the fact that this person I replied to is asking for sources about a completely irrelevant detail and wasn’t directed at anyone else, yourself included. The whole point was that I wanted to know if there was any reason to suggest that the policy was more than a suggestion.

While I appreciate further discussion not directly related to my question, I am well aware that I will be knee deep in studying 50 hours plus in med school and that is not the advice I am looking for.

And I do not appreciate the notion that this question is a sign of unprofessionalism. That couldn’t be further from the truth. The reason I am concerned is that I want to be 100% honest with the school and I am trying to get my ducks in a row well in advance, and I as of yet am not sure how they handle this....ie, do schools consider these policies a suggestion; are they dogmatically enforced?

I think these are honest, ethical questions.

You said you weren’t asking the school in the OP, am I missing how that would be professional?

 

[Oniononorion]

You said you weren’t asking the school in the OP, am I missing how that would be professional?

I’m a couple years prior to applying to this school and I will be very upfront with the school and directly talk to them about it once accepted and I will do whatever they tell me, whenever they tell me; now is simply the time to brainstorm, so there is nothing unprofessional about that.

 

[deleted480308]

I’m a couple years prior to applying to this school and I will be very upfront with the school and directly talk to them about it once accepted and I will do whatever they tell me, whenever they tell me; now is simply the time to brainstorm, so there is nothing unprofessional about that.

Nothing matters but what a school says at that point, carry on

 

[findoc]

I think most of those commenting here are individuals that can't relate to the stress that comes from needing to support a family. I've visited several schools in which medical students on a panel mention volunteering, tutoring, etc. for 10 hours a week during the first two years. Most students say yes you can have a "social life" while in medical school. Why not replace some of those hours with work?

Theoretically, if the school allows it, maybe you could do it. But my guess is that you'll burn out pretty quick.

 

[deleted480308]

I think most of those commenting here are individuals that can't relate to the stress that comes from needing to support a family. I've visited several schools in which medical students on a panel mention volunteering, tutoring, etc. for 10 hours a week during the first two years. Most students say yes you can have a "social life" while in medical school. Why not replace some of those hours with work?

Theoretically, if the school allows it, maybe you could do it. But my guess is that you'll burn out pretty quick.

i'm a family man

 

[Cornfed101]

i'm a family man

+1

 

[deleted1011020]

I think most of those commenting here are individuals that can't relate to the stress that comes from needing to support a family. I've visited several schools in which medical students on a panel mention volunteering, tutoring, etc. for 10 hours a week during the first two years. Most students say yes you can have a "social life" while in medical school. Why not replace some of those hours with work?

Theoretically, if the school allows it, maybe you could do it. But my guess is that you'll burn out pretty quick.

Lets say he makes $100 per hour and decides to work once a week for 8 hours through two 4 month semesters.

Thats about 25k gross. Youre telling me youd put it all on the line for 25k rather than just pull the loan? The situation im giving is literally the best case for OP and likely not even close to that. People in similar situations make it work and I say its best for them to go to the financial aid office and try to shift things around to avoid working. The period when theyre building the foundation for their career as a physician is not the time to take on risks.

 

[NITRAS]

I really think you over-estimate how many medical students work.
Remember, you are not out of the rat race when you get into medical school On the contrary, that is when you start the real rat race.

You don't get a marketable skill until you qualify for a medical license, which happens after one or two years of residency. Until then, you are simply accruing large amounts of debt (assuming you don't have the cash to pay for school, which I assume you don't). A small, but not zero, percentage of people fail. You don't want to be that story of the guy who went $300k in debt and failed out. Things like Step 1 scores will follow you your entire training career, and can really limit your career choices.

I struggled a lot of medical school. I'm a smart guy. 94% on MCAT, and really did well in residency. I do a good job as a doctor. Much better to tighten your budget, have your wife work a few more hours when the kids sleep.

 

[findoc]

Perhaps the better decision is to figure out how your wife can work from home? Could she pick up some web coding or graphic design skills? Those allow for flexibility and working remotely or by freelance. Check out Udemy, there are lots of practical classes she could take.

 

[kraskadva]

OP - I can't answer your question about what the school would do regarding a policy violation, but probably not something you want to deal with.
But I also understend the need for more income than can be provided through loans. (and for all you people saying just get another loan - often that's not an option with the federal loans if your school's fin aid dept won't approve the COA increase, which is not infrequent. And private loans should be an absolute emergency last resort for anyone)
I personally worked part time (5-15 hrs/wk) on campus through M1/2 and I have a friend who's doing at least 1 12hr nurshing shift/week all the way through. It's not easy and if you have the option to not, then don't, but it is possible.

So...options:
-Have a frank discussion with the school. Admitting financial need is not going to be detrimental to you and they should be able to help you work around the issue if they're going to uphold that policy. Maybe that's giving you a waiver to work a few shifts a month. Maybe it's scholarships or COA increases. But they should offer something.
-Apply to other schools where that's not a restriction (and also because there's no guarantee you'll get in to that particular one). Many schools don't regulate this.
-Strongly encourage your wife to get some certification or degree that will allow her to increase her earning potential. It sounds like you have some time before you apply, so also time for her to get more qualifications.
-If none of the above happen (or likely even if they do) apply for medicaid for your wife/kids, as well as food stamps. You will almost certainly be eligible once you stop working and you will not be the only medical student using social support by a long shot. Just those 2 programs can be the difference of a couple grand a month and help make things manageable.

 

[findoc]

Good point. Don't let your wife make so much that you don't qualify for WIC and food stamps! With a couple kids, you will probably get $500 a month in free food.

 

[kraskadva]

Good point. Don't let your wife make so much that you don't qualify for WIC and food stamps! With a couple kids, you will probably get $500 a month in free food.

The income cutoff for a family is higher than you'd imagine. And with a family of 4 (even if only 3 qualify), it's likely >$1000/mo

 

[jamaica jan sun princess]

I really hope you have nothing identifying on your profile whatsoever because I'd imagine these kind of statements and attitudes are not exactly something schools or patients want.

(Make implications about how good (or bad) someone will be as a doctor, contingent on what they post.)

This even has a name - "Burnett's Law" (based on the creator of SDN, @Lee , or, at least, his name). It is, paraphrased, "(something), and, because of this, you'll be a horrible doctor".

 

[deleted1011020]

Point taken. I went ahead and removed my post.