Need advice on what my Sister should do

[Anrie]

Hello all! I'm asking for advice for what my sister should do based on her stats (She's knows about the negativity towards Pharmacy as a future career path, that's why she wanted me to post in place of her, but maybe with her stats she'll be fine? ). What do y'all think? Any helpful feedback/ advice is greatly appreciated! Also, not sure if I should have posted this her, but.. its pre-pharmacy related-ish?

Her Stats:

• 3.0 cGPA Undergrad with bachelor of science, Science GPA = 3.3 (No undergrad debt)
• She has a Masters of Public Health and a Masters of Health Informatics
• 100+ hours of Hospital volunteer
• 2 years of experience as Certified Phlebotomist (Part time)
• 2 years of experience as Certified Pharm Tech (Part time) at a hospital (not retail)
• She is on her 3rd year of experience as a Clinical Lab Scientist (Full time) -> She's been working as a CLS to save up money for grad school (She has saved up half the total tuition of 4 years PharmD program)
• She has a decent amount of potential letters of rec from her ideal pharmacy school's faculty, and most likely from her workplace(s)

Additional Information/ Concerns:
- She lives in socal and ideally, would like to continue being in socal
- She's currently 28, turning 29, potentially wants to have a family soon (she alrdy has a fiance if that matters) but is considering if pharmacy/ grad school in general is still worth it at her age
- With her stats, people tell her to go MD/DO, or atleast DO route , but the problem is, she never had a passion to be a Physician, she has not taken the mcat, and if she doesn't apply this year or next year to a grad school, she will need to retake pre-req classes b/c they will "expire" soon. In addition, w/ her GPA, she doesn't think its competitive enough for med school
- Her goal for if she went pharmacy was either a duel degree or to just pursue residency to go into Managed care, Informatics Pharmacist or regulatory pharmacist (idk if this needs residency, she didn't say)
- She's extremely anxious but hard-working and is considering additional certification/ masters/ other experience to ensure she will get into a residency program .
- Things she's interested in: drug-drug interactions, compounding, maybe industrial, minimal patient interaction, improving healthcare tech use among providers/ in the hospital, helping in patient quality of life in the background not directly, etc etc
- CLS and Phlebotomy were jobs she took on out of necessity for money, not passion.
- She has no research experience, so can't really say if she's truly interested in academia or industry
- Side note= Why did she take long to apply for grad school? She experienced a slight mental breakdown during undergrad that lowered her overall GPA to around 2.7, but raised her GPA not exactly by post-bac but through the pre-req classes she had to do for pharm school and CLS program.
- She's obtained lecture notes for 2 years of the PharmD program she wants to go into and have reviewed them already, so she knows she'll atleast have a head start for pharm school

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[Hels2007]

Why does she want to be a pharmacist if she is not interested in direct patient care? And if she cannot use her already excellent credentials in public health and health informatics to secure an interesting and well-paid job, newsflash: a PharmD won't help her either, because all the unicorn jobs come down to personality, not credentials. Sounds like she is trying to avoid facing the real world and wants to sit it out in the safe and familiar world of academia for as long as she can. I have a cousin like that... managed to do that well into her 40s... only to stay on as a professor later on. Before making a commitment to pharmacy school and taking on extra debt, I would suggest that she evaluate which jobs she is already qualified to do, why isn't she interested in them or why she is not seeking them. Otherwise she will be back in four years asking if a PhD in basket weaving would be a good option.

 

[BC_89]

1) If she knows about the negativity of pharmacy and debt to income ratio then why?

2) To answer the underlying question: Yes, she can get accepted somewhere if she applies broadly and outside of Cali.

3) If she has minimal satisfaction with patient interactions, pharmacy is going to be a rude awakening and best to venture elsewhere

4) Have her read the following hyperlinks:

Job Saturation: Is Pharmacy Worth It? Here's What You Need to Know - The $200 Challenge

** Job Saturation: Is Pharmacy Worth It? Here’s What You Need to Know ** Welcome to the $200 Challenge Link & Submission If you were redirected to this thread by the above link (set up by one of our active SDN users), please read the information below and submit your answer(s) if you have...

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If after all of this she is still interested and understand all sides of the coin, then go for it. We need excellent outliers not people simply running to pharmacy

 

[Pharmacy is a Scam]

Hello all! I'm asking for advice for what my sister should do based on her stats (She's knows about the negativity towards Pharmacy as a future career path, that's why she wanted me to post in place of her, but maybe with her stats she'll be fine? ). What do y'all think?

This is what raises a red flag for me. Why are you posting instead of her? Are you trying to shelter her from the negativity on this sub? If she can’t handle pessimism on an online forum then sorry to break it to you but she is not going to survive when interacting with real pharmacists.

 

[Anrie]

Oh, I didn't think it would be seen as sheltering, honestly, she assumed if she posted herself, all she would get as feedback is people continuing to tell her to give up pharmacy b/c its saturation and other problems, and settle with what shes in or go med school. But, I insisted that maybe thats not just the case and pretty much posted on her behalf, kind of like who's right kind of thing

 

[PharmtoCS]

Oh, I didn't think it would be seen as sheltering, honestly, she assumed if she posted herself, all she would get as feedback is people continuing to tell her to give up pharmacy b/c its saturation and other problems, and settle with what shes in or go med school. But, I insisted that maybe thats not just the case and pretty much posted on her behalf, kind of like who's right kind of thing

Now you have your answer. We’re just trying to tell the truth about the state of the profession.

Going into pharmacy right now is like intentionally trying to jump from a floating ship to a sinking one.

 

[mentos]

She saved up 100k in just 3 years?? That's more than what most pharmacists today are able to save. By the time she finishes pharmacy school, her salary (if there's any jobs left by then) would be 75% of what today's pharmacists make. I'd say keep doing what she's doing.

Remember that right now there are many unemployed pharmDs with 200k debt. Just read the threads in the main forum.

 

[APN-59 rph]

For the 5 billionth time......"The Pharmacist bubble has deflated" The "downhill run" is accelerating and approaching a crash........just say no....

 

[PharmtoCS]

She seems to have mentioned a passion for pharmacy but keep in mind that RETAIL still makes up the vast majority of jobs available to pharmacists and where most pharmacists end up. I am sure most retail pharmacists would kill to become a CLS instead so they don't have to be on their feet all day hearing LANE 1 and ONE PHARMACY CALL all day while being the verbal punching bag because people want their oxys 10 days early and you won't fill for them.

Keep in mind that SoCal is one of the most saturated regions of the country. Even if she goes to school there she will most definitely have to move away due to the lack of jobs. A lot of people from SoCal have had to move to places like Redding, Crescent City, out of state, etc. Some have settled bought houses and started in such places because they have given up on the hope of ever finding a decent job in the Greater Los Angeles Area. This was 5 years ago; the job market is probably far worse now with the new schools that have opened.

 

[rxkrafted]

You mention that earning a pharmacy degree is worth it at her age (28) and wants to start a family soon? Starting your career at 32-33 with over $200K in debt is not worth it considering it'll be even harder or impossible to find a job by the time she graduates.
Her stats are not really competitive for MD/DO in the U.S. but it could be worth a try if she kills her MCATs. However, it looks like her interests deter her from pursuing what physicians normally do.
She could do computer science or equivalent and try to break into informatics side of medicine since she already has credentials for that sort of stuff? I'm not entirely sure but pharmacy is definitely not an area you want to gamble with.

 

[deleted562805]

Oh, I didn't think it would be seen as sheltering, honestly, she assumed if she posted herself, all she would get as feedback is people continuing to tell her to give up pharmacy b/c its saturation and other problems, and settle with what shes in or go med school. But, I insisted that maybe thats not just the case and pretty much posted on her behalf, kind of like who's right kind of thing

Has she considered PA school? Even though her GPA for undergrad is lower, I think she would have a shot at PA school due to her years working in healthcare, and I think the PA school would look at her GPA in MPH and Health Informatics. Plus, PA jobs are in demand right now and you finish school in less time than pharmacy school and less liability than a physician.

 

[Pharmacy is a Scam]

Her Stats:
3.0 cGPA Undergrad with bachelor of science, Science GPA = 3.3 (No undergrad debt)

With her stats, people tell her to go MD/DO, or atleast DO route

She’s been getting terrible advice from whoever is giving her career input. You’d need a minimum 3.8 GPA and have gone to an elite undergrad university to have a decent shot at any respectable medical school. Furthermore, if you don’t have the grades and/or test scores (indicative of a strong academic background) then you’re not going to be successful even if you got into medical school because you’re going to be taking board exams every year starting year two which will dictate your future.

You can get away with lower GPAs but a lot of work/extracurricular/leadership experience for admission to pharmacy, nursing, PA or any of the allied health profession schools because there isn‘t the emphasis on scholastic achievement in these disciplines - simply pass your classes and pass the one licensing exam you take after you graduate and you’re all set to practice.

 

[rxkrafted]

Has she considered PA school? Even though her GPA for undergrad is lower, I think she would have a shot at PA school due to her years working in healthcare, and I think the PA school would look at her GPA in MPH and Health Informatics. Plus, PA jobs are in demand right now and you finish school in less time than pharmacy school and less liability than a physician.

I was also going to suggest that but I don't think she would be interested based on the information he provided so far...

- Things she's interested in: drug-drug interactions, compounding, maybe industrial, minimal patient interaction, improving healthcare tech use among providers/ in the hospital, helping in patient quality of life in the background not directly, etc etc

 

[DagS132]

Why doesn't she want to keep working as a CLS? That is a very respectable career and absolutely needed in all hospitals. The pay is good too and you can work your way up to 6 figures. Based on your post about her interests, cls is exactly what she has been looking for but didn't realize.

 

[BidingMyTime]

This is what raises a red flag for me. Why are you posting instead of her? Are you trying to shelter her from the negativity on this sub? If she can’t handle pessimism on an online forum then sorry to break it to you but she is not going to survive when interacting with real pharmacists.

Not to mention the negativity of interacting with real patients.

OP, sounds like your sister is having an early mid-life crisis and 2nd guessing her life choices. As I see it, there is absolutely no reason she should go back to school. It sounds like she has a decent job and no school debt, plus she wants to start a family. I think it is human nature to always imagine "what if", but the smart human will be able to rationally way the pros and benefits and not go chasing pipe dreams.

Her stats make it extremely unlikely she would ever be admitted to DO school (definitely not MD school), but pharmacy schools are literally taking anyone and everyone. She absolutely would be accepted into pharmacy school, that doesn't mean its a good option. She would graduate with a huge amount of debt, most likely have to move to get a job, and quite likely find she doesn't like the pharmacist job anymore than her current job. Her low stats mean she will really have to study hard at pharmacy school, which will make it a bad idea to start a family while in pharmacy school. I'm guessing she probably has more regular shifts as a CLS than she would as a pharmacist (maybe not depending on her current job), but she be aware that almost all pharmacists regardless of practice environment, work weekends and holidays, and when she starts out she will likely be floating if retail (which will more than likely be where she gets a job) or doing swing shifts in hospital. Sure many pharmacists successfully have families with those crazy hours....but if she already has a decent job, why spend time and money going back to school to get a job that may not be as good?

As for "passion", this doesn't exist, this is a ridiculous concept that school counselors made up. Extremely few people have a "passion" for their job. People who have a "passion" for something, do it for free, or even spend their own money for the chance to do it. Jobs pay people to them, precisely because nobody wants to do that work for free. If your wants a job that will be her "passion" she will forever be disappointed. Hobbies are what people are passionate about, not jobs. If you sister thinks pharmacy is going to be her "passion", she is setting herself up for a major disappointment.

Regardless of what your sister decides to do, she needs to learn the difference between a job and a "passion"--they are not the same thing, and there is no reason to expect them to be the same thing.

 

[LivingMyBestLife]

Not to mention the negativity of interacting with real patients.

OP, sounds like your sister is having an early mid-life crisis and 2nd guessing her life choices. As I see it, there is absolutely no reason she should go back to school. It sounds like she has a decent job and no school debt, plus she wants to start a family. I think it is human nature to always imagine "what if", but the smart human will be able to rationally way the pros and benefits and not go chasing pipe dreams.

Her stats make it extremely unlikely she would ever be admitted to DO school (definitely not MD school), but pharmacy schools are literally taking anyone and everyone. She absolutely would be accepted into pharmacy school, that doesn't mean its a good option. She would graduate with a huge amount of debt, most likely have to move to get a job, and quite likely find she doesn't like the pharmacist job anymore than her current job. Her low stats mean she will really have to study hard at pharmacy school, which will make it a bad idea to start a family while in pharmacy school. I'm guessing she probably has more regular shifts as a CLS than she would as a pharmacist (maybe not depending on her current job), but she be aware that almost all pharmacists regardless of practice environment, work weekends and holidays, and when she starts out she will likely be floating if retail (which will more than likely be where she gets a job) or doing swing shifts in hospital. Sure many pharmacists successfully have families with those crazy hours....but if she already has a decent job, why spend time and money going back to school to get a job that may not be as good?

As for "passion", this doesn't exist, this is a ridiculous concept that school counselors made up. Extremely few people have a "passion" for their job. People who have a "passion" for something, do it for free, or even spend their own money for the chance to do it. Jobs pay people to them, precisely because nobody wants to do that work for free. If your wants a job that will be her "passion" she will forever be disappointed. Hobbies are what people are passionate about, not jobs. If you sister thinks pharmacy is going to be her "passion", she is setting herself up for a major disappointment.

Regardless of what your sister decides to do, she needs to learn the difference between a job and a "passion"--they are not the same thing, and there is no reason to expect them to be the same thing.

Couldn't agree more. IT seems most people's PASSION (TM) (R) is for money and status. It's hard seeing these types of people living at home years after graduating pharmacy with no job. They truly got neither money nor status from obtaining a PharmD. I think getting a PharmD is still a great degree if you are okay with low income and living with your parents. Def not a good idea for anyone considering having children or a family. You would need a higher income for that kid of situation.

 

[AM77]

Has she considered looking into other healthcare professions other than pharmacy such as PA school? The good news is anyone can get accepted to pharmacy school these days. Even West Coast University is willing to accept applicants with 2.8 GPA which is really sad and pathetic in my opinion. The bad news is that you will rack up $200,000+ in student loan debt with no guarantee of finding a full time job. Even if you’re lucky enough to land one, you’ll be poor for many years because of your student loans. Secondly, the pharmacy job market today isn’t like how it was ten years ago. Literally, a local Kaiser hospital in SoCal posted one pharmacist job opening recently and received 300+ applications. You’ve got it. Not 3, not 30, but 300+ pharmacists applying for a single job opening. You mentioned that she would like to continue being in SoCal. The very bad news is that we have 14 Pharmacy schools in California and SoCal is oversaturated.

 

[mentos]

Has she considered looking into other healthcare professions other than pharmacy such as PA school? The good news is anyone can get accepted to pharmacy school these days. Even West Coast University is willing to accept applicants with 2.8 GPA which is really sad and pathetic in my opinion. The bad news is that you will rack up $200,000+ in student loan debt with no guarantee of finding a full time job. Even if you’re lucky enough to land one, you’ll be poor for many years because of your student loans. Secondly, the pharmacy job market today isn’t like how it was ten years ago. Literally, a local Kaiser hospital in SoCal posted one pharmacist job opening recently and received 300+ applications. You’ve got it. Not 3, not 30, but 300+ pharmacists applying for a single job opening. You mentioned that she would like to continue being in SoCal. The very bad news is that we have 14 Pharmacy schools in California and SoCal is oversaturated.

That single job opening was most likely already filled before it was posted. They only have to post it for legal reasons.

 

[Sleepingdoc]

Couldn't agree more. IT seems most people's PASSION (TM) (R) is for money and status. It's hard seeing these types of people living at home years after graduating pharmacy with no job. They truly got neither money nor status from obtaining a PharmD. I think getting a PharmD is still a great degree if you are okay with low income and living with your parents. Def not a good idea for anyone considering having children or a family. You would need a higher income for that kid of situation.

How much money do you think is needed to have family/children and living independently? Pharmacist make a decent amount... lets not make it sound like pharmacists are living under a bridge.

 

[DagS132]

How much money do you think is needed to have family/children and living independently? Pharmacist make a decent amount... lets not make it sound like pharmacists are living under a bridge.

im pretty sure the other person was also taking into account the increased student loans and the average lower pay along with whatever living expenses. Of course you can get out of pharmacy school with no student loans the situation would be significantly different.

 

[PharmtoCS]

How much money do you think is needed to have family/children and living independently? Pharmacist make a decent amount... lets not make it sound like pharmacists are living under a bridge.

They could very well be living under a bridge if they can't find a job in this saturated market and Sallie Mae goes after them for owing $200k+ in student loans.

 

[LivingMyBestLife]

How much money do you think is needed to have family/children and living independently? Pharmacist make a decent amount... lets not make it sound like pharmacists are living under a bridge.

Pharmacists that ARE FULLY EMPLOYED make a decent amount. Not many new grads are fully employed and many many many are back at home with their parents working jobs not directly related to pharmacy. This is often the case with laid off older pharmacists as well. Pharmacy is not the golden opportunity it once was.

 

[Sleepingdoc]

Pharmacists that ARE FULLY EMPLOYED make a decent amount. Not many new grads are fully employed and many many many are back at home with their parents working jobs not directly related to pharmacy. This is often the case with laid off older pharmacists as well. Pharmacy is not the golden opportunity it once was.

Pharmacists are able to find jobs... maybe not in the most suitable-convenient place... in the middle of metropolitan areas 5 minutes from home... but it requires more research and putting yourself out there maybe driving half an hour/1 hour or so... Networking also plays an important role.

 

[DagS132]

Pharmacists are able to find jobs... maybe not in the most suitable-convenient place... in the middle of metropolitan areas 5 minutes from home... but it requires more research and putting yourself out there maybe driving half an hour/1 hour or so... Networking also plays an important role.

2 questions for ya. 1. Did you recently graduate? 2. Are you working as a pharmacist right now?

 

[mentos]

Pharmacists are able to find jobs... maybe not in the most suitable-convenient place... in the middle of metropolitan areas 5 minutes from home... but it requires more research and putting yourself out there maybe driving half an hour/1 hour or so... Networking also plays an important role.

Have you read the job market forum? Many unemployed pharmDs out there. This one thread has many examples, there are many other threads about unemployed pharmacists.

2019 new grads: How has the job search been going for you?

This is the year that many on this forum have predicted to be the “tipping point” for pharmacy. Curious to hear what you’ve experienced or heard your classmates experience in your job searches so far. What have your schools of pharmacy been telling you about the job market?

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