Nepotism in Radonc

[stems]

Does anyone else think that the level of nepotism in radonc is high?

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[Gfunk6]

Yes, it is quite high. But when you have a small field of professionals, that tends to occur. The ramifications for medical students applying to residencies and then residents applying to jobs are high. I've frequently seen people who are "well connected" do much better for themselves then they would otherwise do in a pure meritocracy.

I don't think this is necessarily a bad thing overall, but it does mean that one should network aggressively to get what they want.

 

[Haybrant]

nowhere in medicine is nepotism stronger than in ophthalmology

 

[thecarbonionangle]

There's some incredible nepotism I saw on the trail this year.

 

[Leapfrog80]

There's some incredible nepotism I saw on the trail this year.

Completely agree and I think it's unfortunate. It exists not only in selection of residents but hiring attendings. What I find especially unfortunate is that certain programs continue to interview other candidates as if they are considering outsider when they already know who they intend to hire, based solely on family connection.

 

[vokey588]

There's some incredible nepotism I saw on the trail this year.

How do you know if there's nepotism without seeing the program's rank list? I'm just not sure how you can see nepotism without knowing whether a program ranked an inferior but well-connected applicant highly.

 

[BEASTMODEXRT]

Think harder.

 

[kristofer]

At one of my interviews, two faculty interviewed me at the same time. They were father and son. So, n=1.

 

[BEASTMODEXRT]

There's a program in NYC where one of the residents is the daughter of one of the attendings. In that same program this year, the chairman was interviewing his own son for a residency position.

 

[mpdoc2]

There's a program in NYC where one of the residents is the daughter of one of the attendings. In that same program this year, the chairman was interviewing his own son for a residency position.

Which program? Please tell us so that we in the field can give them ****.

 

[Leapfrog80]

There's a program in NYC where one of the residents is the daughter of one of the attendings. In that same program this year, the chairman was interviewing his own son for a residency position.

Yes, exactly. Was told the position will be going to the son. Not sure if that's true or not since I don't know the rank list. Another example, I've been told of another place where an attending position is 'guaranteed' to the son-in-law of one of the chairs or vice chairs. I can't say whether or not he deserves the position but what would bother me is that if the spot is going to him anyway, why bother having the charade of bringing in other candidates and wasting everyone's time to 'hide' the nepotism.

 

[Scatter]

There's a program in NYC where one of the residents is the daughter of one of the attendings. In that same program this year, the chairman was interviewing his own son for a residency position.

Oh em gee! That's pretty revolting. I'd be indignant.

 

[Neuronix]

There was an applicant a few years ago who had strong connections to a prominent program where they interviewed. It was assumed that they would have a free spot there, and yet they ended up at a different program. So I would reserve judgement for now.

 

[BEASTMODEXRT]

Which program? Please tell us so that we in the field can give them ****.

NY METHODIST HOSPITAL. BOOM. People came from all over the country and spend a lot of money only to hear whispers the son had it in the bag. The interview there was a complete waste of time. Cannot respect a department that allows this. Major nepotism going on. I found this incredibly deeply insulting

 

[Scatter]

That's major conflict of interest. Can ASTRO be petitioned to do something about this?

 

[radiaterMike]

That's major conflict of interest. Can ASTRO be petitioned to do something about this?

Not sure ASTRO could or should do anything. I would wonder whether any applicant would choose a program with their parent as faculty as their top choice. Regardless, that is life. Nepotism happens. In medicine and elsewhere.

With respect to the original post - "nepotism ' which I assume to mean ranking medical students known to program highly is a consequence of ranking known entities (that are liked) highly. This is not nefarious but rather a reflection of programs wanting people they know are good. So - be a good student and do aways where you want (and are likely) to match.

 

[BEASTMODEXRT]

There was an applicant a few years ago who had strong connections to a prominent program where they interviewed. It was assumed that they would have a free spot there, and yet they ended up at a different program. So I would reserve judgement for now.

Wether the person is ranked #1 or not is irrelevant in my opinion. The fact that this happened shows at least terrible lack of judgement in the leadership and at worst..... (you know what). This good old boy type system should not be happening.

 

[yoradonc]

I understand that everyone is stressed out about the rank list and matching, but, seriously, you likely have no idea what's going on. It's possible that person didn't even rank that program 1st, 2nd, 3rd.... etc. He may not even want to go there! You also don't know what considerations were taken into account given the situation - the program probably feels weird about it, too. I think it would be weird if he didn't get an interview there. And if you had those connections, you would feel the same way, too.

So take a chill pill, and if you don't match, it's nobody's fault but your own. And if you didn't rank the program because of that information, you may have shot yourself in the foot.

 

[BEASTMODEXRT]

I understand that everyone is stressed out about the rank list and matching, but, seriously, you likely have no idea what's going on. It's possible that person didn't even rank that program 1st, 2nd, 3rd.... etc. He may not even want to go there! You also don't know what considerations were taken into account given the situation - the program probably feels weird about it, too. I think it would be weird if he didn't get an interview there. And if you had those connections, you would feel the same way, too.

So take a chill pill, and if you don't match, it's nobody's fault but your own.

Oh yeah bro?

 

[BDUS]

There's a program in NYC where one of the residents is the daughter of one of the attendings. In that same program this year, the chairman was interviewing his own son for a residency position.

I also know of such a program where a resident is child of an attending (sigh). I worked side by side with child and mother and where my intern should have given the chance to do X procedure the mother said she wanted child to do it because she had not done it before...sigh

 

[mpdoc2]

ASTRO can't, but ACGME can certainly put a program that interviews for filled positions that are unfilled by name only on probation. If it is common knowledge and it if the person does match there, I highly recommend sending a letter to ACGME regarding this kind of action. This sort of stuff gets programs on probation.

 

[napoleondynamite]

Is the problem that the son was granted an interview? Unless I'm mistaken, the match hasn't happened yet.

If the kid is qualified for a radonc position at this program, should they be disqualified from an interview because of the family relationship? I personally don't think so.

As someone above stated, programs nearly always give preference to known quantities - be it their own medical students or those who have rotated through and are well known and well liked.

It's not as if this program is interviewing a chiropractor for a radonc residency - they are interviewing a medical student who is interested in radonc and for all you know is every bit as qualified as you are.

If I were the kid's Dad and on faculty, I personally would worry about how it would look so would try to encourage my kid to train elsewhere..they would probably learn better from other people too..but if my kid was qualified for consideration and wanted to train at my program, I would not close the door on them just because others might raise their eyebrows.

I had more than one interview that I felt was money and time wasted because the program had basically decided who they were going to match. But having been on the other end of the process now I can tell you that surprises happen every year, despite perceived promises by either programs or candidates.

In this scenario, it sounds like the only thing you are confident about is that the kid was given an interview. He has not matched. Even if he did, he may have every right to. I don't see any "proof" of wrongdoing.

 

[mpdoc2]

Is the problem that the son was granted an interview? Unless I'm mistaken, the match hasn't happened yet.

If the kid is qualified for a radonc position at this program, should they be disqualified from an interview because of the family relationship? I personally don't think so.

As someone above stated, programs nearly always give preference to known quantities - be it their own medical students or those who have rotated through and are well known and well liked.

It's not as if this program is interviewing a chiropractor for a radonc residency - they are interviewing a medical student who is interested in radonc and for all you know is every bit as qualified as you are.

If I were the kid's Dad and on faculty, I personally would worry about how it would look so would try to encourage my kid to train elsewhere..they would probably learn better from other people too..but if my kid was qualified for consideration and wanted to train at my program, I would not close the door on them just because others might raise their eyebrows.

I had more than one interview that I felt was money and time wasted because the program had basically decided who they were going to match. But having been on the other end of the process now I can tell you that surprises happen every year, despite perceived promises by either programs or candidates.

In this scenario, it sounds like the only thing you are confident about is that the kid was given an interview. He has not matched. Even if he did, he may have every right to. I don't see any "proof" of wrongdoing.

You'd really be something else if you don't think having a daddy who is chair wouldn't influence your probably of getting accepted in the field. His dad will probably get him hired somewhere else. But realistically nepotism happens everywhere including medicine. It's probably worst in a small field like ours. The only thing we can do is to call it out when we see it.

 

[BEASTMODEXRT]

You'd really be something else if you don't think having a daddy who is chair wouldn't influence your probably of getting accepted in the field. His dad will probably get him hired somewhere else. But realistically nepotism happens everywhere including medicine. It's probably worst in a small field like ours. The only thing we can do is to call it out when we see it.

someone gets it. thank you

 

[napoleondynamite]

Of course it will influence him. That wasn't my point. You guys are going to the other extreme by suggesting he should be eliminated from the process. My point is that he hasn't been selected to match at the program you are insulting and you do not know all of the details. If the kid is qualified, why should he be eliminated from the interview process just because is Dad is the Chair? Is that just as unfair?

 

[OTN]

I can't imagine ASTRO doing a thing. They don't even care if residents can find jobs after training, why would they bother wasting their time with something that affects only a few people a year? I think they should, but it doesn't mean they will.

 

[BEASTMODEXRT]

My intention is to shift attention to the program and the chair, not the son. I don't care about the kid. I do think that i am in the right to feel this way; this is not a personal attack. Clearly I am not the only one who finds this behavior extremely frustrating (see previous other posts). Think about it from the perspective of applicants who went to interview (sometimes they may have even chosen this program over another one). I just find these sort of practices by PDs and chairs extremely shady and in my opinion it should not be allowed.

 

[jjborden101]

I am interested in getting a small group of soon to graduate and recent grads to discuss issues similar to these in an anonymous manner. SDN has become an unsafe and intolerant forum to discuss important issues. PM me.

 

[Gfunk6]

SDN has become an unsafe and intolerant forum to discuss important issues. PM me.

Huh?

 

[RadRadRad]

If I was chair of NY Methodist and my son/daughter was interested in radonc, I'd be using my connections to get them a spot at MSKCC, MGH, Yale, or some other top tier east coast program.

 

[medgator]

If I was chair of NY Methodist and my son/daughter was interested in radonc, I'd be using my connections to get them a spot at MSKCC, MGH, Yale, or some other top tier east coast program.

Obviously.

You forgot the second part of that

"And I would keep a spot at my program for him/her as a backup."

 

[ramsesthenice]

I have to agree with Napoleon on this one. It might be shady, it might not. If under qualified people are getting spots that is BS and shouldn't happen. But at the same time, if a PD or chairs son/daughter is really qualified for a spot is it any more fair for them to be disqualified for that spot? And where do you draw the line? Programs tend to give preference to home students and away rotations. You want them to be disqualified too? Maybe a better system would be to get rid of personal information and interviews all together and have programs only look at peoples board scores, grades, and research and have a formula rank them so there is no bias in the system at all? Of course no one would lobby for that nor should they.

GFunk is right, people will always go with what/who they know. There will always be some amount of bias in who gets matched or hired. Even still, if you are qualified, you will match somewhere. Probably somewhere really good too. Don't let the stress of the match get to you too much.

 

[mpdoc2]

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