Neuropsychology Q's?

[IWillSurvive]

Hey everyone! I am new to this forum and would like some feedback on a few things. I am wanting to apply to neuropsychology pre-doctoral internships at VA sites in the future. Is anyone aware of what the mean for direct contact hours is for those applying to NP tracks? or even geropsychology tracks? I am expecting to be on the low--->average end, so if anyone has any information about what the range of direct hours might be, that would be great. Also, I am trying to find out what the breakdown of intervention/assessment hours are on average. I know alot of VA's require a greater amount of intervention hrs than assessment hours, which seems somewhat counterintuitive for assessment track people, but I also get why. Just curious if anyone knows if there is any flexibility in terms of the allocation of intervention and assessment hours.

Thanks so much!

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[Pragma]

You should be able to find some of this information via the APPIC match data that is published every year.

I believe most VAs have a minimum of 500 or so FTF hours. Past that, how they evaluate you depends on the supervisors doing the evaluating.

 

[WisNeuro]

For neuro specific tracks, most of the solid applicants I have reviewed had more assessment than intervention. Although they generally have a good amount of both. 500 combined is usually a bare minimum. I personally like to see a bare minimum of 150 intervention and bare minimum of 300 assessment. Keep in mind those are minimums. We evaluate the whole package. Someone could be on the lower end of hours, relative to the pool, but have varied experience and very good research exposure/productivity. I'll rate them exceedingly higher than the person with 1200 hours, mostly at one site, with almost no research exposure/productivity.

Just don't be like some applicants with a blind focus to accruing as many hours as possible without regard to the quality of those hours and other aspects of your application, which are just as, and sometimes more important.

 

[ClinicalTears]

For neuro specific tracks.. Someone could be on the lower end of hours, relative to the pool, but have varied experience and very good research exposure/productivity. I'll rate them exceedingly higher than the person with 1200 hours, mostly at one site, with almost no research exposure/productivity.

What would you say is good research exposure/productivity?

 

[WisNeuro]

For neuropsychology? A first author pub would be ideal. At a minimum, several poster/paper presentations at some of the big conferences (e.g., INS, AACN).

 

[ClinicalTears]

For neuropsychology? A first author pub would be ideal. At a minimum, several poster/paper presentations at some of the big conferences (e.g., INS, AACN).

Gonna just bump this.

Is it difficult to get a spot for a poster presentation at INS? I'm submitting two poster abstracts, but the research isn't really ground-breaking.

 

[Kadhir]

No, it's not hard. I mean, make it as good as you can so it's also worth your while, but it certainly does not need to be 'groundbreaking'. Remember that you can continue to work on the project and include updated results when you actually present the poster. It can't always happen, but aim to eventually make everything a paper.

 

[Riggs82]

Is this thread still active?

 

[ClinicalTears]

No, it's not hard. I mean, make it as good as you can so it's also worth your while, but it certainly does not need to be 'groundbreaking'. Remember that you can continue to work on the project and include updated results when you actually present the poster. It can't always happen, but aim to eventually make everything a paper.

Gotcha. This is my first time submitting to INS and my supervisor has gone on vacation. So I do not know if my abstract formatting is correct.

I mean, I have all the appropriate headers, but am not sure if I should have more content in the Objectives sections or Results/Conclusion. I have more in the objective section now because I try to set up the need for the study/poster.

Any advice is appreciated.

 

[bcliff]

For neuropsychology? A first author pub would be ideal. At a minimum, several poster/paper presentations at some of the big conferences (e.g., INS, AACN).

1 first author pub seems low to me -- Would you say that's a relatively middle-of-the-road standard? Also, when applying to internship, do those 500 hours include support/supervision/etc.? 300 FTF assessment hours seems like a lot of testing administration and not necessarily a lot of case conceptualization.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

1 first author pub seems low to me -- Would you say that's a relatively middle-of-the-road standard? Also, when applying to internship, do those 500 hours include support/supervision/etc.? 300 FTF assessment hours seems like a lot of testing administration and not necessarily a lot of case conceptualization.

Middle of the road sounds about right, depending on the internship site. There are plenty of trainees with no pubs, so having at least one as first-author sets the reviewer's mind at ease a bit. And in neuropsych, there are of course plenty of trainees with numerous pubs, many of which are first-authored. But they're going to be competitive most everywhere.

 

[Kadhir]

I mean, I have all the appropriate headers, but am not sure if I should have more content in the Objectives sections or Results/Conclusion. I have more in the objective section now because I try to set up the need for the study/poster.

Keep the objective concise- it's easy to let this eat up your word count. The most important things to communicate are what you did and what you found.

1 first author pub seems low to me -- Would you say that's a relatively middle-of-the-road standard? Also, when applying to internship, do those 500 hours include support/supervision/etc.? 300 FTF assessment hours seems like a lot of testing administration and not necessarily a lot of case conceptualization.

They do not include supervision and support hours. Support hours essentially count for nothing. You should have 500 FTF at a minimum. The appropriate split between assessment and intervention will depend on the focus of the individual applicant and the track to which they're applying.

 

[OneNeuroDoctor]

It is a long road for Neuropsychologist training and if you plan on applying for ABPP CN you need to be cautious about where you do you predoc and your postdoc training.
When you apply for review of your application for ABPP CN Candidacy Status it is a "Blind Review" is my understanding. I am unsure of how they do this, but my guess is they have a checklist: APA or NON APA Program, APA, APPIC or NON APA APPIC Predoctoral, Formal APA Postdoc or Formal NonAPA Postdoc, or NonFormal Non APA Postdoc. If you have APA Program, APA Predoc, Formal APA Postdoc the process is much more smoother rather than the other options. My guess is the reviewers do not know the applicants name or the program they graduated from during this process, but later on after reaching Candidate Status they may have this information.

It is really a test of perseverance from my experience having been recently approved for ABPP CN Candidacy Status with my Board Written Exam coming up in September. I've heard some nightmare stories where some have had to complete a second two-year postdoctoral neuropsychology training as they were not approved for Candidacy Status due to their original postdoctoral neuropsychology training not meeting standards. If you attend any of the workshops at NAN covering Board Certification some attendees are very frustrated and angry about the process. What I have learned is that it is near impossible to obtain University or Hospital-Based Neuropsychologist positions unless your are Board Certified by ABPP CN.

Unfortunately, under current State Psychologist guidelines many Psychologist may use the title Neuropsychologist and engage in Neuropsychologist practice without actually completing a two-year postdoctoral neuropsychologist fellowship. My guess is that eventually regulations for Neuropsychologist Practice will require Board Certification.

 

[Riggs82]

It is a long road for Neuropsychologist training and if you plan on applying for ABPP CN you need to be cautious about where you do you predoc and your postdoc training.
When you apply for review of your application for ABPP CN Candidacy Status it is a "Blind Review" is my understanding. I am unsure of how they do this, but my guess is they have a checklist: APA or NON APA Program, APA, APPIC or NON APA APPIC Predoctoral, Formal APA Postdoc or Formal NonAPA Postdoc, or NonFormal Non APA Postdoc. If you have APA Program, APA Predoc, Formal APA Postdoc the process is much more smoother rather than the other options. My guess is the reviewers do not know the applicants name or the program they graduated from during this process, but later on after reaching Candidate Status they may have this information.

It is really a test of perseverance from my experience having been recently approved for ABPP CN Candidacy Status with my Board Written Exam coming up in September. I've heard some nightmare stories where some have had to complete a second two-year postdoctoral neuropsychology training as they were not approved for Candidacy Status due to their original postdoctoral neuropsychology training not meeting standards. If you attend any of the workshops at NAN covering Board Certification some attendees are very frustrated and angry about the process. What I have learned is that it is near impossible to obtain University or Hospital-Based Neuropsychologist positions unless your are Board Certified by ABPP CN.

Unfortunately, under current State Psychologist guidelines many Psychologist may use the title Neuropsychologist and engage in Neuropsychologist practice without actually completing a two-year postdoctoral neuropsychologist fellowship. My guess is that eventually regulations for Neuropsychologist Practice will require Board Certification.

Thank you @OneNeuroDoctor, this is informative! I'm not sure for whom your message was intended, but I should ask you questions anyways if that's okay--CNs are hard to find!

I'm having a little frustration with finding academic pathways to becoming a clinical neuropsychologist. On a few of the SDN threads regarding becoming a CN, I gained that the consensus for becoming one is to follow the Houston Guidelines...well that's a great, but to an undergrad like me, I don't know what the heck a "vertical or horizontal" academic path is, nor where/how to find what the bar graphs in the guidelines represent. In other words, to me, the Houston Guidelines don't really map out how to get there clearly. Sure, it lists the courses, but who teaches them? Maybe I'm missing something; and (dare I say) perhaps no one knows for sure how to get there unless they have been through trial-and-error like the poor folks in the nightmare stories--probably because there are so many ways to get there. This isn't directed towards you by the way; I'm just venting to my fellow online psychology colleagues.

Here is what I've gathered about academic pathways between researching grad schools through Division 40 of the APA and from SN threads on CN:

My logic about this is telling me "well if I want to be a neuropsychologist, then go to a school that trains me to become one." So what I did was I populated a list of clinical psychology schools that offer neuropsych as a track/specialty/practicum...etc. Arguments against this method include: too much specialization in CN, and not getting enough foundational clinical psychology experience; institutions marketing neuropsych to gain more students and then failing them with a lack of APA- accredited internships and poor licensure rates after graduation.

So that leads me to not pursue grad schools that offer CN tracks, because I don't want to find that out after five to seven years of grad school (and a bazillion dollars later with my poor wife starving), but rather to apply to clinical psych PhD programs, and then upon acceptance, find a faculty member(s) with a CN background and research with them. My other conclusion is to finish a clinical psych PhD, then to pursue a APA-accredited CN internship. It sounds to me like the better plan is to follow what the ABPP-CN requires and use that as an academic guideline. I really do want to have a job when this is said and done! Hahaha! What do you think about all of this? And more importantly, what academic pathway did you take to get where you are?

 

[WisNeuro]

Riggs, the vertical path really just means that there is more than one way to get there, as in, you can get different foci at different stages (e.g., grad school vs internship). Perhaps the most important step is a 2-year postdoctoral fellowship in CN that adheres to HCG. But, to do so, you'll want to set yourself up well to be competitive for those slots. The HCG was not intended to be a rigid, step by step instruction manual.

First and foremost, get into a good, fully funded program, with good accredited match rates. You are a psychologist before you are a neuropsychologist. Ideally you'll be doing some research that has some neuro components. You should have some practica during grad school that allow neuro assessment. Find an internship that has a neuro rotation, and then get the 2 year postdoc.

 

[Riggs82]

Riggs, the vertical path really just means that there is more than one way to get there, as in, you can get different foci at different stages (e.g., grad school vs internship). Perhaps the most important step is a 2-year postdoctoral fellowship in CN that adheres to HCG. But, to do so, you'll want to set yourself up well to be competitive for those slots. The HCG was not intended to be a rigid, step by step instruction manual.

First and foremost, get into a good, fully funded program, with good accredited match rates. You are a psychologist before you are a neuropsychologist. Ideally you'll be doing some research that has some neuro components. You should have some practica during grad school that allow neuro assessment. Find an internship that has a neuro rotation, and then get the 2 year postdoc.

@WisNeuro thank you for your response. You'll have to forgive me, I am new to the neuropsych academic path and I'm having a hard time finding answers I can understand. I get that the Houston Guidelines aren't meant to be a step-by-step manual. I am just saying I think what they do give is too vague and may be one reason why folks (of whom OneNeuroDoctor had mentioned in his previous message) are having to repeat their two-year post doc training due to not meeting the ABPP-CN standards or the lack of ability to find a CN job. That's just scary, especially to a guy like me who is in his 30s and who is looking at being in his 40s when grad school is completed. But it is like you said: you are a psychologist before you are a neuropsychologist, as it says in Part II of the HCG:

Integration should begin with doctoral education and should continue through internship and residency education and training; this is the "vertical" dimension of education and training.

My fellow SDN-colleagues have warned in previous threads that some programs offering CN are a marketing tactic. I'm not sure if they mean a professional school or what, but one public school I've found has a clinical psychology program with a neuropsych specialty (as well as other specialties like health psychology and child and family...etc). This particular university says on their website they follow the HCG "vertical" in their program and the outcome stats show they have had 100% APA internships for the past five+ years. Now, after reading about the poor folks having to repeat their two year post grad, I'm not so sure. If it's one thing I've learned so far it's to double-check that everything is APA-accredited or I may not have a job in the field.

So in order to avoid unfortunate circumstances like these in the future, I gather that simply focusing on an APA-accredited clinical psychology programs (and APA internships) first, and from there is where I get confused. How does one set themselves up to be competitive for a post-doc fellowship in CN? Is it safe to say that most APA-clinical psych schools have neuropsych in their practica?

 

[WisNeuro]

@Riggs82 Generally, not many people are having to repeat neuro postdocs. I have only seen it happen when someone made a terrible decision in choosing an initial postdoc. Most reputable postdocs actually state whether or not they are HCG compliant these days. As for the Neuro track, not all are gimmicks. First and foremost, look into good clinical psych programs. If they have great accredited postdoc rates and EPPP pass rates, and also happen to have a neuro track (e.g., U of Houston), it's s safe bet. If it's a program that starts with Argosy/Alliant/Albizu, run away. As far as practica, look for places that have practica with AMC's or VAs, most will generally have neuro practica available.

 

[Riggs82]

@Riggs82 Generally, not many people are having to repeat neuro postdocs. I have only seen it happen when someone made a terrible decision in choosing an initial postdoc. Most reputable postdocs actually state whether or not they are HCG compliant these days. As for the Neuro track, not all are gimmicks. First and foremost, look into good clinical psych programs. If they have great accredited postdoc rates and EPPP pass rates, and also happen to have a neuro track (e.g., U of Houston), it's s safe bet. If it's a program that starts with Argosy/Alliant/Albizu, run away. As far as practica, look for places that have practica with AMC's or VAs, most will generally have neuro practica available.

I looked at some of those Alliant, Argosy, and Fieldman and I couldn't help but raise my eyebrow at a couple of them. Hahaha. As far as accredited postdoc rates, by that, do you mean internships? Lately what I've been doing is populating a list of programs from states all around my region in the US and from there I've been going straight to the Outcomes, Admissions, and Other Data and writing it all down. When you say EPPP pass rates, is that under the "Licensure" section of the university's outcome data?

 

[LETSGONYR]

I looked at some of those Alliant, Argosy, and Fieldman and I couldn't help but raise my eyebrow at a couple of them. Hahaha. As far as accredited postdoc rates, by that, do you mean internships? Lately what I've been doing is populating a list of programs from states all around my region in the US and from there I've been going straight to the Outcomes, Admissions, and Other Data and writing it all down. When you say EPPP pass rates, is that under the "Licensure" section of the university's outcome data?

Internship and postdoc are different animals altogether. For internship, it's really important to go to an APA-accredited site, preferably one that will provide you with significant neuropsychology experience, but if you have a really strong background it's not technically required.

For fellowship, APA accreditation isn't necessary (even though OND said otherwise). As WisNeuro said, most formal programs advertise that they conform to the Houston conference guidelines, which is really what you want. You can also try to secure a position through APPCN, which is an organization that tries to ensure high caliber training across sites (at a minimum, consistent with HCG). Doing that helps streamline the first step of the ABPP process (which is likely what OND was referring to... but it's not APA accreditation, it's APPCN. Very different.)

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[WisNeuro]

Oops, yes, I meant accredited internship match rates. As far as the EPPP rates, ASPPB used to post them, not sure if they do anymore.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

It can certainly be confusing, particularly at the grad school level. Rule of thumb is that most folks, at least currently, who go on to become neuropsychologists didn't have a formal track. However, they likely did have a neuropsychologist as an advisor (like myself), and/or completed a number of practica with neuropsychologist supervisors. It's not necessarily a bad thing to begin learning neuro principles early on, but if this happens, it must occur concurrently with training in general clinical psych. It can make things more or less difficult for the individual student, depending on how they learn.

Where the tracks become problematic is when they're created by lackluster training programs as a way of attracting applicants' attention. This is what folks in other threads were warning against, because "neuropsych" has become a trendy/sexy word in the doctoral psych training world for whatever reason. Basically, if the parent school is a good one, don't worry so much about whether it's a track, lab, or series of practica you'll be participating in; just be sure the training experiences can be had somewhere. If the parent school looks to be iffy (which can be elucidated to some degree by the factors WisNeuro and others have mentioned--accredited internship match rates, licensure rates, incoming class characteristics, etc.), then the neuropsych training--whether it's a track or not--may also be suspect.

As WisNeuro mentioned, there are generally few people who go through proper neuropsych training channels who have to repeat their postdoc, even if it's a more informal one. However, to guard against that, you can look into getting an APA-accredited and/or APPCN-member fellowship. If either of those standards is met, applying for board eligibility will be much easier; you'll essentially just check a box or two rather than having to spell out what courses you've taken, what supervision you've received, what types of patients you've seen, etc.

 

[Riggs82]

Internship and postdoc are different animals altogether. For internship, it's really important to go to an APA-accredited site, preferably one that will provide you with significant neuropsychology experience, but if you have a really strong background it's not technically required.

For fellowship, APA accreditation isn't necessary (even though OND said otherwise). As WisNeuro said, most formal programs advertise that they conform to the Houston conference guidelines, which is really what you want. You can also try to secure a position through APPCN, which is an organization that tries to ensure high caliber training across sites (at a minimum, consistent with HCG). Doing that helps streamline the first step of the ABPP process (which is likely what OND was referring to... but it's not APA accreditation, it's APPCN. Very different.)

Sent from my SM-G930V using SDN mobile

@LETSGONYR, thank you for your input! I am from the west coast of the US and I have a super-supportive wife who is willing to give up her career and move in order to support me in my academic pursuits --I'm one lucky guy! The problem is, clinical psychology programs that offer CN as a specialty in the pacific west region are rare, and according to the vast majority of opinions from my fellow SDN-ers, I run the risk of having too much training in CN, and not enough in the foundational clinical PhD training required for state licensure exams. There are a couple of schools here that say they adhere to HCG "vertical," but their licensure rates are horrible (one school reported a 63% licensure rate for their graduates, but to be fair, this could be because not all of their graduates had reported).

Needless to say, as much as I want to study the biological brain/behavior relationship, I will most likely stick to APA-accredited clinical psych schools with APA internships of which are closer to home, so I'm not uprooting my wife completely from her family and I can secure a job in less time. To me, pursuing CN seems more like a gamble in this area because this particular specialty is not well-regulated by western states. I don't know for sure if state licensure for CN even exists here, in addition to it taking a super long time (7+ years), which is to long to achieve for a guy in his mid-30s.

I think my safest bet is to stick to clinical psych schools, and if they happen to have neuropsych in their PhD practica, or there are neuro internships available, fantastic; I'll jump all over it.

 

[WisNeuro]

I don't know for sure if state licensure for CN even exists here, in addition to it taking a super long time (7+ years), which is to long to achieve for a guy in his mid-30s.

I think my safest bet is to stick to clinical psych schools, and if they happen to have neuropsych in their PhD practica, or there are neuro internships available, fantastic; I'll jump all over it.[/USER]

Juts to clarify, licensure for CN doesn't really exist anywhere. You get licensed as a psychologist, and some states will allow you to identify specialty areas if your training backs it up.

 

[Riggs82]

Oops, yes, I meant accredited internship match rates. As far as the EPPP rates, ASPPB used to post them, not sure if they do anymore.

Thank you. I'll look into ASPPB. That never even occurred to me.

 

[Riggs82]

Juts to clarify, licensure for CN doesn't really exist anywhere. You get licensed as a psychologist, and some states will allow you to identify specialty areas if your training backs it up.

Gotcha. As I was replying to @LETSGONYR I checked out a few of the licensing boards that stated exactly that...e.g. what titles a licensed psychologist can display...etc. It looks like once one achieves state licensure (easier said than done I'm sure) they need to also apply with the ABPP-CN board for the CN specialty--is that right?

 

[WisNeuro]

Gotcha. As I was replying to @LETSGONYR I checked out a few of the licensing boards that stated exactly that...e.g. what titles a licensed psychologist can display...etc. It looks like once one achieves state licensure (easier said than done I'm sure) they need to also apply with the ABPP-CN board for the CN specialty--is that right?

Well, no one HAS to apply for ABPP, but it is strongly encouraged as some states restrict billing for certain neuropsych codes to boarded individuals. Also, you will have a much easier time finding a job if you are board eligible/boarded. Sooner you do it, the better, for a variety of reasons.

 

[Riggs82]

It can certainly be confusing, particularly at the grad school level. Rule of thumb is that most folks, at least currently, who go on to become neuropsychologists didn't have a formal track. However, they likely did have a neuropsychologist as an advisor (like myself), and/or completed a number of practica with neuropsychologist supervisors. It's not necessarily a bad thing to begin learning neuro principles early on, but if this happens, it must occur concurrently with training in general clinical psych. It can make things more or less difficult for the individual student, depending on how they learn.

Where the tracks become problematic is when they're created by lackluster training programs as a way of attracting applicants' attention. This is what folks in other threads were warning against, because "neuropsych" has become a trendy/sexy word in the doctoral psych training world for whatever reason. Basically, if the parent school is a good one, don't worry so much about whether it's a track, lab, or series of practica you'll be participating in; just be sure the training experiences can be had somewhere. If the parent school looks to be iffy (which can be elucidated to some degree by the factors WisNeuro and others have mentioned--accredited internship match rates, licensure rates, incoming class characteristics, etc.), then the neuropsych training--whether it's a track or not--may also be suspect.

As WisNeuro mentioned, there are generally few people who go through proper neuropsych training channels who have to repeat their postdoc, even if it's a more informal one. However, to guard against that, you can look into getting an APA-accredited and/or APPCN-member fellowship. If either of those standards is met, applying for board eligibility will be much easier; you'll essentially just check a box or two rather than having to spell out what courses you've taken, what supervision you've received, what types of patients you've seen, etc.

Great response, @AcronymAllergy thank you for clarifying!

I want to stick with the clinical psych program for grad school mainly because it is APA-accredited. My primary goal is to be a clinical psychologist for sure, but I also love to study everything about the brain-behavior relationship as well. At the same time, I have no desire to be a physician or a neuroscientist. On that, the Brain and Cognitive Sciences PhD program at my school sounds super fun, but it isn't APA-accredited.

The top clinical psych school to which I will apply after my junior year and GREs are complete is APA-accredited, and is right here at my alma mater. Now, keep in mind I'm just starting my junior year in 18 short days, and this semester will cover research methods and stats (yes I'm counting down the days because I'm stoked about it!). At any rate, I looked up my soon-to-be research methods professor, and she happens to be the only instructor I'm aware of at my school who has a neuropsychology background. Her CV shows a lot of work with fMRI, EEG; visual perception studies, head trauma, and more. Additionally, she is the director of a research lab and I think she is a Brain and Cognitive Sciences doctoral assistant prof. as well...I think this alone just made her my new mentor; she just doesn't know it yet! If I can hit it off with her (academically speaking of course) I wonder if I can do neuro training with her as part of my clinical practica while in their clinical psych program, assuming of course I made it that far. What do you think?

 

[Riggs82]

Well, no one HAS to apply for ABPP, but it is strongly encouraged as some states restrict billing for certain neuropsych codes to boarded individuals. Also, you will have a much easier time finding a job if you are board eligible/boarded. Sooner you do it, the better, for a variety of reasons.

Thank you, I'll keep this all in mind.

 

[WisNeuro]

While it is a good goal and thought to want to get into the grad program at your alma mater, there are a few cautions. One, some programs are wary of, and do not like to take students from their school. It's not universal, very idiosyncratic, but it does happen. Two, most applicants are applying to 10+ programs for grad school. Remember that most of these places are receiving well over 100 applications and are accepting class sizes between 5-10 people. Competition is pretty fierce and you'll need to be thinking more broadly to increase your chances.

 

[Riggs82]

@Riggs82 Generally, not many people are having to repeat neuro postdocs. I have only seen it happen when someone made a terrible decision in choosing an initial postdoc. Most reputable postdocs actually state whether or not they are HCG compliant these days. As for the Neuro track, not all are gimmicks. First and foremost, look into good clinical psych programs. If they have great accredited postdoc rates and EPPP pass rates, and also happen to have a neuro track (e.g., U of Houston), it's s safe bet. If it's a program that starts with Argosy/Alliant/Albizu, run away. As far as practica, look for places that have practica with AMC's or VAs, most will generally have neuro practica available.

Oh, and I've been meaning to ask: what is an AMC and a VA?

 

[WisNeuro]

AMC is an academic medical center, VA refers to a Veterans Affairs Medical Center.

 

[Riggs82]

While it is a good goal and thought to want to get into the grad program at your alma mater, there are a few cautions. One, some programs are wary of, and do not like to take students from their school. It's not universal, very idiosyncratic, but it does happen. Two, most applicants are applying to 10+ programs for grad school. Remember that most of these places are receiving well over 100 applications and are accepting class sizes between 5-10 people. Competition is pretty fierce and you'll need to be thinking more broadly to increase your chances.

Wow. I didn't realize it was taboo for grad schools to take undergrads from their own school. I suppose it makes sense to maximize the talent from everywhere. I guess I'm used to the whole "it's all about who you know" frame of mind. The main reason I want to go to grad school at my alma mater is because if I don't have to move my family away, I won't, but my wife is mentally prepared to move if I get accepted somewhere else.

I have been working on a list of schools in states from all over the western region. I have 12 universities so far, and about three or four clinical psych PsyD schools as well. As soon as my junior year is up, I will take the GREs and begin applying, with the clinical psych PhD programs as the top priority.

 

[Riggs82]

AMC is an academic medical center, VA refers to a Veterans Affairs Medical Center.

So an AMC is a university clinic, like at a medical school?

 

[WisNeuro]

So an AMC is a university clinic, like at a medical school?

Not necessarily. A lot of programs will have their own, in-house clinic. They may also have a relationship of some sort with an AMC, which many times is a hospital that also does a good deal of research, for external practica.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Yep, like WisNeuro said, in-house/university clinics and academic medical centers are two different things. The former typically provides services to students, and sometimes to individuals in the community, at discounted rates. The latter are often large, advanced teaching and research hospitals providing a plethora of medical and other services. Think something like Duke University Medical Center or Johns Hopkins.

As for the professor of your upcoming class, establishing a relationship and possibly working in their lab as an undergrad would both be great opportunities. Like WisNeuro mentioned, it won't necessarily increase your chances of getting in to grad school there (although it could, if you do a great job and depending on the department's policies and atmosphere), but it also sounds like it'd be very relevant experience regardless.

 

[psych.meout]

Wow. I didn't realize it was taboo for grad schools to take undergrads from their own school. I suppose it makes sense to maximize the talent from everywhere. I guess I'm used to the whole "it's all about who you know" frame of mind. The main reason I want to go to grad school at my alma mater is because if I don't have to move my family away, I won't, but my wife is mentally prepared to move if I get accepted somewhere else.

I have been working on a list of schools in states from all over the western region. I have 12 universities so far, and about three or four clinical psych PsyD schools as well. As soon as my junior year is up, I will take the GREs and begin applying, with the clinical psych PhD programs as the top priority.

I understand the logic and empathize with your desire to not uproot your wife too much, but you should be wary of regionally restricting your applications. This is a frequent kiss of death for applicants, especially as their regional restrictions are often in highly sought after areas, e.g. NYC/New England, Chicago, California, etc. The more desirable the area, the more applicants in general and the more highly qualified applicants you are going to be competing against. It's already incredibly difficult to get into funded, APA-approved programs, but you're only hurting your chances by restricting your programs by location.

This is going to be increasingly problematic if you're interested in going into neuropsychology, as the mentors and programs that would put you on the best path forward for getting the research, training, internship, and post-doc necessary for boarding might not be available at those programs in your region. Even if they are available, they might be in a highly sought after geographic area or studying a "hot" topic, thereby attracting even more competition.

And don't forget how important "fit" is. Just, because a program is APA-approved, has neuropsych-related courses (e.g. psychopharmacology, neuroanatomy), and has mentors with neuropsych-research foci doesn't mean it's the right one for you. It would be just miserable to have to work for several years with someone with whom you don't mesh well or in a lab in which you hate the focus.

Furthermore, this type of regional restriction will make things even more difficult later on when you go to apply for internships and/or post-doc fellowships. You'll encounter all the aforementioned problems of geographically restricting your grad program. I'm not saying that you can't restrict your geographic focus and still get into a good, funded, APA-approved grad program with a good "fit." I'm just saying that you would be making an already difficult and stressful process even worse for yourself by doing so. It could also be the difference of getting admitted straight out of undergrad and/or the first time you apply vs. having multiple application cycles and/or taking a gap year to beef up your CV.

 

[Riggs82]

I understand the logic and empathize with your desire to not uproot your wife too much, but you should be wary of regionally restricting your applications. This is a frequent kiss of death for applicants, especially as their regional restrictions are often in highly sought after areas, e.g. NYC/New England, Chicago, California, etc. The more desirable the area, the more applicants in general and the more highly qualified applicants you are going to be competing against. It's already incredibly difficult to get into funded, APA-approved programs, but you're only hurting your chances by restricting your programs by location.

This is going to be increasingly problematic if you're interested in going into neuropsychology, as the mentors and programs that would put you on the best path forward for getting the research, training, internship, and post-doc necessary for boarding might not be available at those programs in your region. Even if they are available, they might be in a highly sought after geographic area or studying a "hot" topic, thereby attracting even more competition.

And don't forget how important "fit" is. Just, because a program is APA-approved, has neuropsych-related courses (e.g. psychopharmacology, neuroanatomy), and has mentors with neuropsych-research foci doesn't mean it's the right one for you. It would be just miserable to have to work for several years with someone with whom you don't mesh well or in a lab in which you hate the focus.

Furthermore, this type of regional restriction will make things even more difficult later on when you go to apply for internships and/or post-doc fellowships. You'll encounter all the aforementioned problems of geographically restricting your grad program. I'm not saying that you can't restrict your geographic focus and still get into a good, funded, APA-approved grad program with a good "fit." I'm just saying that you would be making an already difficult and stressful process even worse for yourself by doing so. It could also be the difference of getting admitted straight out of undergrad and/or the first time you apply vs. having multiple application cycles and/or taking a gap year to beef up your CV.

But how will a grad school know if am regionally restricting all of my applications? If I live in California and want to go to a grad school in Idaho, how is that a "kiss of death" for acceptance into grad school? By all means, if I were to get accepted in Texas, I would take it. The bottom line is, my biological clock is ticking, and my wife and I don't know how long her father will be around. If I can get into a grad school that is as close to home as possible, I will take it.

As for CN, I've pretty well decided at this point that it's too much of a gamble (especially in my region) and I'll stick with APA-accredited clinical psych programs with a high licensure rate.

 

[Riggs82]

I understand the logic and empathize with your desire to not uproot your wife too much, but you should be wary of regionally restricting your applications. This is a frequent kiss of death for applicants, especially as their regional restrictions are often in highly sought after areas, e.g. NYC/New England, Chicago, California, etc. The more desirable the area, the more applicants in general and the more highly qualified applicants you are going to be competing against. It's already incredibly difficult to get into funded, APA-approved programs, but you're only hurting your chances by restricting your programs by location.

This is going to be increasingly problematic if you're interested in going into neuropsychology, as the mentors and programs that would put you on the best path forward for getting the research, training, internship, and post-doc necessary for boarding might not be available at those programs in your region. Even if they are available, they might be in a highly sought after geographic area or studying a "hot" topic, thereby attracting even more competition.

And don't forget how important "fit" is. Just, because a program is APA-approved, has neuropsych-related courses (e.g. psychopharmacology, neuroanatomy), and has mentors with neuropsych-research foci doesn't mean it's the right one for you. It would be just miserable to have to work for several years with someone with whom you don't mesh well or in a lab in which you hate the focus.

Furthermore, this type of regional restriction will make things even more difficult later on when you go to apply for internships and/or post-doc fellowships. You'll encounter all the aforementioned problems of geographically restricting your grad program. I'm not saying that you can't restrict your geographic focus and still get into a good, funded, APA-approved grad program with a good "fit." I'm just saying that you would be making an already difficult and stressful process even worse for yourself by doing so. It could also be the difference of getting admitted straight out of undergrad and/or the first time you apply vs. having multiple application cycles and/or taking a gap year to beef up your CV.

Also, how could I possibly know what states or regions grad schools are targeting? I couldn't wait for a response because this is just ridiculous and it sounds like you're making this grad school thing a lot harder than it needs to be. You expect me to believe that a grad school committee would look at a students packet showing superior GRE scores, recs, and then go "Ohp!...he's from the next state over...toss his out...." I suppose maybe if they have 12 students that are all neck and neck and the same exact scores, that could be true, but I'm not going to worry too much about the region I'm from as being a kiss of death-- that I cannot control. I understand that universities and professional schools want talent from all over and seek diverse student populations, but how could an applicant possibly have any control over that? One rolls the dice no matter where he or she applies. Excelling the best I can as an undergrad, getting those GRE scores and GPA up, as well as obtaining as much research experience as I can; that I can control.

As far as the internships, one of the first things I look for on clinical psychology PhD websites are the Student Admissions, Outcomes, and Other data, and check out the percentages of their APA-accredited internships. Now, I realize there are probably some confounding variables involved so they aren't always accurate, but if they have eight PhD candidates with all eight gaining internships listed on their most recent years, then the school is clearly doing something right and therefore region shouldn't really be an issue.

If I don't get accepted to schools in my region, than I will push farther east. I'm sure you mean well, but as a guy who lives in the pacific west, I'm not going to apply to somewhere in Vermont unless I've first exhausted schools that are close by. I'm married and I have to compromise with my wife because she is sacrificing her career for this.

 

[erg923]

Also, how could I possibly know what states or regions grad schools are targeting? I couldn't wait for a response because this is just ridiculous and it sounds like you're making this grad school thing a lot harder than it needs to be. You expect me to believe that a grad school committee would look at a students packet showing superior GRE scores, recs, and then go "Ohp!...he's from the next state over...toss his out...." I suppose maybe if they have 12 students that are all neck and neck and the same exact scores, that could be true, but I'm not going to worry too much about the region I'm from as being a kiss of death-- that I cannot control. I understand that universities and professional schools want talent from all over and seek diverse student populations, but how could an applicant possibly have any control over that? One rolls the dice no matter where he or she applies. Excelling the best I can as an undergrad, getting those GRE scores and GPA up, as well as obtaining as much research experience as I can; that I can control.

As far as the internships, one of the first things I look for on clinical psychology PhD websites are the Student Admissions, Outcomes, and Other data, and check out the percentages of their APA-accredited internships. Now, I realize there are probably some confounding variables involved so they aren't always accurate, but if they have eight PhD candidates with all eight gaining internships listed on their most recent years, then the school is clearly doing something right and therefore region shouldn't really be an issue.

If I don't get accepted to schools in my region, than I will push farther east. I'm sure you mean well, but as a guy who lives in the pacific west, I'm not going to apply to somewhere in Vermont unless I've first exhausted schools that are close by. I'm married and I have to compromise with my wife because she is sacrificing her career for this.

Settle down. This is stats and probabilities 101. The region you have been talking about applying is popular. Higher number of applicants. Higher number of applicants means smaller probability of admission.

 

[psych.meout]

Also, how could I possibly know what states or regions grad schools are targeting? I couldn't wait for a response because this is just ridiculous and it sounds like you're making this grad school thing a lot harder than it needs to be. You expect me to believe that a grad school committee would look at a students packet showing superior GRE scores, recs, and then go "Ohp!...he's from the next state over...toss his out...." I suppose maybe if they have 12 students that are all neck and neck and the same exact scores, that could be true, but I'm not going to worry too much about the region I'm from as being a kiss of death-- that I cannot control. I understand that universities and professional schools want talent from all over and seek diverse student populations, but how could an applicant possibly have any control over that? One rolls the dice no matter where he or she applies. Excelling the best I can as an undergrad, getting those GRE scores and GPA up, as well as obtaining as much research experience as I can; that I can control.

As far as the internships, one of the first things I look for on clinical psychology PhD websites are the Student Admissions, Outcomes, and Other data, and check out the percentages of their APA-accredited internships. Now, I realize there are probably some confounding variables involved so they aren't always accurate, but if they have eight PhD candidates with all eight gaining internships listed on their most recent years, then the school is clearly doing something right and therefore region shouldn't really be an issue.

Calm down, you're completely misunderstanding what I wrote. As Erg alluded to, this isn't about where you're from, it's about basic probability and demand. You're applying to a region with very popular programs and whose demand is further increased by factors unrelated to the programs themselves, especially geography. The Pacific coast states are really popular, as are the adjacent states, because they are so close to the coastal states.

The same goes for internship placement and post-doc fellowships, the more desirable and populous the area, the more competition and demand there will be for those placements. A program listing a high match rate isn't a guarantee of an APA-approved placement simply because you attended the program. It's based on the individual, and geographically restricting your applications will hamstring your chances, regardless of the quality of your program.

If I don't get accepted to schools in my region, than I will push farther east. I'm sure you mean well, but as a guy who lives in the pacific west, I'm not going to apply to somewhere in Vermont unless I've first exhausted schools that are close by. I'm married and I have to compromise with my wife because she is sacrificing her career for this.

See, this is what I was talking about. No one is saying that you can't apply to popular or highly selective programs in a given region, but only applying to them is going to make your very slim chances of admission (look up the stats, funded, APA-approved programs max out at admitting less than about 16% of applicants, most are less than 10%) even worse and will likely result in you not receiving any offers and having to reapply. And if time is such a factor, as you've already implied, do you really want to wait another year to start grad school, especially if the reason you didn't get admitted the first time was that you geographically restricted yourself?

You seem to be mainly focused on location and speed to licensure, which might not be the best strategy. For example, you spent so much time here inquiring about neuropsych and boarding, but dropped it fairly quickly once you deemed it to be too much of a "gamble." If you're this quick to drop something in which you're ostensibly so interested, maybe you need to take some time to think about your overall life goals and plans.

 

[Riggs82]

Settle down. This is stats and probabilities 101. The region you have been talking about applying is popular. Higher number of applicants. Higher number of applicants means smaller probability of admission.

"Settle down" says a random stranger from out of nowhere. Did you read all of what I said or just scratch the surface? I too can put the word "psychologist" under my online username using the pulldown menu--and I can also be a well written and precocious middle-school aged boy from eastern Uganda who was lucky enough to get the internet working in the cafe of my small village today. You should come visit! We have a Yahtzee tournament right after Tostada Tuesdays--omg--winner of the tournament gets a Nintendo t-shirt with Luigi on the front (couldn't afford Mario)! I know, I know....tostadas are of Mexican origin, but my village is trying something new and we are really hoping they catch on...we need the business...

So, about this stats and probabilities 101 thing: I haven't taken stats yet because the local militia won't allow us to have textbooks; they frown upon learning so I have to sneak my books into the basement of a brothel....super hard to concentrate in there. In the stats and probabilities texts or in lecture for 101, does it say specifically: "you should be wary of regionally restricting your applications...this is a frequent kiss of death for applicants, especially as their regional restrictions are often in highly sought after areas" and then is NYC,New England, Chicago, California specifically listed in lecture or text?

Let's just say, I sat with a box, a little stick, and a string for three months and finally caught a rare but majestic Ugandan unicorn-Pegasus named Sebastian, who flew me across the great blue seas to California where I finished my bachelors, and then upon completion I didn't apply to any of the previous writer's aforementioned areas, but rather to grad schools in Montana, Idaho, Wyoming, Colorado, Nevada, New Mexico, and Arizona instead--is it taught in stats and probabilities 101 that I will be statistically unlikely to be accepted to any of these programs because they are all in the same region and I live in California? 'Cause if it is, I want to go to school there--that's what I call thorough! I want to see that journal article that says "Phd Program Administrators are.... Psychic?"

(Grad school panel mulling over hundreds of applicants)

Dr. Steve: (breathes a sigh of relief) Finally! We are down to three applicants and we have eight slots to fill. This gent (patting papers on table in front of him) and these two young ladies all look promising...Dr. Tatiana, you're not gonna believe this..317 total on revised GRE, 3.8 GPA, outstanding and kind words on their letters of recs....all three rescued buses full of babies from a certain death and volunteered at hospice care centers and saved elderly ladies from choking, ALL have the same exact amount of research experience...This is a tough decision...I don't know what we're gonna do.

Dr. Tatiana: Hmmm....where are they from?

Dr. Steve: (flips through paperwork) he is from the next state over, but....(puts packet up to forehead) I......feel....like.....ah...lost it...NO WAIT... he might... be....applying to other programs that are only restricted to this region...and.........(grabs the other two packets) Yep. Just as I thought. The areas are all in highly desirable area---

Dr. Tatiana: ---toss them all out.

Dr. Steve: but we have like eight slots left....

Dr. Tatiana: we can't have people from any regional state matriculating at this institution.

Dr. Steve: sigh. (throws packets in shred pile).

This, Dr. Random Guy, is what the previous writer makes this sound like. My point? The details of grad school selection processes are none of my business. All I can do is the best I can in undergrad, test like hell, and present my best self on paper when I apply, the rest is up to them. Worrying about whether they are only accepting candidates from XYZ states is only added stress that I don't need, nor can I control. Applying for grad schools is a shake of the Yahtzee cup full of dice no matter where one applies from. I have no scientific data to back this up, but my best guess is that people from the western region probably want to go to schools in the east (e. g...Yale, Harvard, Penn State, John Hopkins, West Point Military Academy..) just as badly as folks from the east and mid-west want to come here to the west to study. Additionally, when a guy like me is married to a lady who is willing to sacrifice her career so her husband (that's me) can go to school for clinical psychology, he has to compromise.

P.S. The invitation is still on for Tostada Tuesdays.

 

[MAClinician]

@Riggs82 people are trying to give you constructive feedback on your questions and clarify any misconceptions you may have. The tone of your last few responses comes off as snarky, inflexible, and unappreciative. That is not a good habit to have if you plan to apply to clinical psychology programs, where faculty are likely to give you constructive feedback you may not like. No one here said you would never get in to a West Coast program, just warned you to not restrict yourself geographically. There are many factors at play. Lots of people want to become clinical psychologists but it doesn't always mean they will reach their goal, or that their goal is appropriate. For the record, APA only accredits clinical, counseling and school psychology programs. Experimental programs such as Brain and Cognitive Sciences, Developmental, or Applied would not get accredited by APA.

 

[erg923]

"Settle down" says a random stranger from out of nowhere. Did you read all of what I said or just scratch the surface? I too can put the word "psychologist" under my online username using the pulldown menu--and I can also be a well written and precocious middle-school aged boy from eastern Uganda who was lucky enough to get the internet working in the cafe of my small village today. You should come visit! We have a Yahtzee tournament right after Tostada Tuesdays--omg--winner of the tournament gets a Nintendo t-shirt with Luigi on the front (couldn't afford Mario)! I know, I know....tostadas are of Mexican origin, but my village is trying something new and we are really hoping they catch on...we need the business...

So, about this stats and probabilities 101 thing: I haven't taken stats yet because the local militia won't allow us to have textbooks; they frown upon learning so I have to sneak my books into the basement of a brothel....super hard to concentrate in there. In the stats and probabilities texts or in lecture for 101, does it say specifically: "you should be wary of regionally restricting your applications...this is a frequent kiss of death for applicants, especially as their regional restrictions are often in highly sought after areas" and then is NYC,New England, Chicago, California specifically listed in lecture or text?

Let's just say, I sat with a box, a little stick, and a string for three months and finally caught a rare but majestic Ugandan unicorn-Pegasus named Sebastian, who flew me across the great blue seas to California where I finished my bachelors, and then upon completion I didn't apply to any of the previous writer's aforementioned areas, but rather to grad schools in Montana, Idaho, Wyoming, Colorado, Nevada, New Mexico, and Arizona instead--is it taught in stats and probabilities 101 that I will be statistically unlikely to be accepted to any of these programs because they are all in the same region and I live in California? 'Cause if it is, I want to go to school there--that's what I call thorough! I want to see that journal article that says "Phd Program Administrators are.... Psychic?"

(Grad school panel mulling over hundreds of applicants)

Dr. Steve: (breathes a sigh of relief) Finally! We are down to three applicants and we have eight slots to fill. This gent (patting papers on table in front of him) and these two young ladies all look promising...Dr. Tatiana, you're not gonna believe this..317 total on revised GRE, 3.8 GPA, outstanding and kind words on their letters of recs....all three rescued buses full of babies from a certain death and volunteered at hospice care centers and saved elderly ladies from choking, ALL have the same exact amount of research experience...This is a tough decision...I don't know what we're gonna do.

Dr. Tatiana: Hmmm....where are they from?

Dr. Steve: (flips through paperwork) he is from the next state over, but....(puts packet up to forehead) I......feel....like.....ah...lost it...NO WAIT... he might... be....applying to other programs that are only restricted to this region...and.........(grabs the other two packets) Yep. Just as I thought. The areas are all in highly desirable area---

Dr. Tatiana: ---toss them all out.

Dr. Steve: but we have like eight slots left....

Dr. Tatiana: we can't have people from any regional state matriculating at this institution.

Dr. Steve: sigh. (throws packets in shred pile).

This, Dr. Random Guy, is what the previous writer makes this sound like. My point? The details of grad school selection processes are none of my business. All I can do is the best I can in undergrad, test like hell, and present my best self on paper when I apply, the rest is up to them. Worrying about whether they are only accepting candidates from XYZ states is only added stress that I don't need, nor can I control. Applying for grad schools is a shake of the Yahtzee cup full of dice no matter where one applies from. I have no scientific data to back this up, but my best guess is that people from the western region probably want to go to schools in the east (e. g...Yale, Harvard, Penn State, John Hopkins, West Point Military Academy..) just as badly as folks from the east and mid-west want to come here to the west to study. Additionally, when a guy like me is married to a lady who is willing to sacrifice her career so her husband (that's me) can go to school for clinical psychology, he has to compromise.

P.S. The invitation is still on for Tostada Tuesdays.

First of all: WTF?

Second: Are you dense? Or just bad at math?

 

[psych.meout]

"Settle down" says a random stranger from out of nowhere. Did you read all of what I said or just scratch the surface? I too can put the word "psychologist" under my online username using the pulldown menu--and I can also be a well written and precocious middle-school aged boy from eastern Uganda who was lucky enough to get the internet working in the cafe of my small village today. You should come visit! We have a Yahtzee tournament right after Tostada Tuesdays--omg--winner of the tournament gets a Nintendo t-shirt with Luigi on the front (couldn't afford Mario)! I know, I know....tostadas are of Mexican origin, but my village is trying something new and we are really hoping they catch on...we need the business...

So, about this stats and probabilities 101 thing: I haven't taken stats yet because the local militia won't allow us to have textbooks; they frown upon learning so I have to sneak my books into the basement of a brothel....super hard to concentrate in there. In the stats and probabilities texts or in lecture for 101, does it say specifically: "you should be wary of regionally restricting your applications...this is a frequent kiss of death for applicants, especially as their regional restrictions are often in highly sought after areas" and then is NYC,New England, Chicago, California specifically listed in lecture or text?

Let's just say, I sat with a box, a little stick, and a string for three months and finally caught a rare but majestic Ugandan unicorn-Pegasus named Sebastian, who flew me across the great blue seas to California where I finished my bachelors, and then upon completion I didn't apply to any of the previous writer's aforementioned areas, but rather to grad schools in Montana, Idaho, Wyoming, Colorado, Nevada, New Mexico, and Arizona instead--is it taught in stats and probabilities 101 that I will be statistically unlikely to be accepted to any of these programs because they are all in the same region and I live in California? 'Cause if it is, I want to go to school there--that's what I call thorough! I want to see that journal article that says "Phd Program Administrators are.... Psychic?"

(Grad school panel mulling over hundreds of applicants)

Dr. Steve: (breathes a sigh of relief) Finally! We are down to three applicants and we have eight slots to fill. This gent (patting papers on table in front of him) and these two young ladies all look promising...Dr. Tatiana, you're not gonna believe this..317 total on revised GRE, 3.8 GPA, outstanding and kind words on their letters of recs....all three rescued buses full of babies from a certain death and volunteered at hospice care centers and saved elderly ladies from choking, ALL have the same exact amount of research experience...This is a tough decision...I don't know what we're gonna do.

Dr. Tatiana: Hmmm....where are they from?

Dr. Steve: (flips through paperwork) he is from the next state over, but....(puts packet up to forehead) I......feel....like.....ah...lost it...NO WAIT... he might... be....applying to other programs that are only restricted to this region...and.........(grabs the other two packets) Yep. Just as I thought. The areas are all in highly desirable area---

Dr. Tatiana: ---toss them all out.

Dr. Steve: but we have like eight slots left....

Dr. Tatiana: we can't have people from any regional state matriculating at this institution.

Dr. Steve: sigh. (throws packets in shred pile).

This, Dr. Random Guy, is what the previous writer makes this sound like. My point? The details of grad school selection processes are none of my business. All I can do is the best I can in undergrad, test like hell, and present my best self on paper when I apply, the rest is up to them. Worrying about whether they are only accepting candidates from XYZ states is only added stress that I don't need, nor can I control. Applying for grad schools is a shake of the Yahtzee cup full of dice no matter where one applies from. I have no scientific data to back this up, but my best guess is that people from the western region probably want to go to schools in the east (e. g...Yale, Harvard, Penn State, John Hopkins, West Point Military Academy..) just as badly as folks from the east and mid-west want to come here to the west to study. Additionally, when a guy like me is married to a lady who is willing to sacrifice her career so her husband (that's me) can go to school for clinical psychology, he has to compromise.

P.S. The invitation is still on for Tostada Tuesdays.

Wow.

 

[Dirkwww]

"Settle down" says a random stranger from out of nowhere. Did you read all of what I said or just scratch the surface? I too can put the word "psychologist" under my online username using the pulldown menu--and I can also be a well written and precocious middle-school aged boy from eastern Uganda who was lucky enough to get the internet working in the cafe of my small village today. You should come visit! We have a Yahtzee tournament right after Tostada Tuesdays--omg--winner of the tournament gets a Nintendo t-shirt with Luigi on the front (couldn't afford Mario)! I know, I know....tostadas are of Mexican origin, but my village is trying something new and we are really hoping they catch on...we need the business...

So, about this stats and probabilities 101 thing: I haven't taken stats yet because the local militia won't allow us to have textbooks; they frown upon learning so I have to sneak my books into the basement of a brothel....super hard to concentrate in there. In the stats and probabilities texts or in lecture for 101, does it say specifically: "you should be wary of regionally restricting your applications...this is a frequent kiss of death for applicants, especially as their regional restrictions are often in highly sought after areas" and then is NYC,New England, Chicago, California specifically listed in lecture or text?

Let's just say, I sat with a box, a little stick, and a string for three months and finally caught a rare but majestic Ugandan unicorn-Pegasus named Sebastian, who flew me across the great blue seas to California where I finished my bachelors, and then upon completion I didn't apply to any of the previous writer's aforementioned areas, but rather to grad schools in Montana, Idaho, Wyoming, Colorado, Nevada, New Mexico, and Arizona instead--is it taught in stats and probabilities 101 that I will be statistically unlikely to be accepted to any of these programs because they are all in the same region and I live in California? 'Cause if it is, I want to go to school there--that's what I call thorough! I want to see that journal article that says "Phd Program Administrators are.... Psychic?"

(Grad school panel mulling over hundreds of applicants)

Dr. Steve: (breathes a sigh of relief) Finally! We are down to three applicants and we have eight slots to fill. This gent (patting papers on table in front of him) and these two young ladies all look promising...Dr. Tatiana, you're not gonna believe this..317 total on revised GRE, 3.8 GPA, outstanding and kind words on their letters of recs....all three rescued buses full of babies from a certain death and volunteered at hospice care centers and saved elderly ladies from choking, ALL have the same exact amount of research experience...This is a tough decision...I don't know what we're gonna do.

Dr. Tatiana: Hmmm....where are they from?

Dr. Steve: (flips through paperwork) he is from the next state over, but....(puts packet up to forehead) I......feel....like.....ah...lost it...NO WAIT... he might... be....applying to other programs that are only restricted to this region...and.........(grabs the other two packets) Yep. Just as I thought. The areas are all in highly desirable area---

Dr. Tatiana: ---toss them all out.

Dr. Steve: but we have like eight slots left....

Dr. Tatiana: we can't have people from any regional state matriculating at this institution.

Dr. Steve: sigh. (throws packets in shred pile).

This, Dr. Random Guy, is what the previous writer makes this sound like. My point? The details of grad school selection processes are none of my business. All I can do is the best I can in undergrad, test like hell, and present my best self on paper when I apply, the rest is up to them. Worrying about whether they are only accepting candidates from XYZ states is only added stress that I don't need, nor can I control. Applying for grad schools is a shake of the Yahtzee cup full of dice no matter where one applies from. I have no scientific data to back this up, but my best guess is that people from the western region probably want to go to schools in the east (e. g...Yale, Harvard, Penn State, John Hopkins, West Point Military Academy..) just as badly as folks from the east and mid-west want to come here to the west to study. Additionally, when a guy like me is married to a lady who is willing to sacrifice her career so her husband (that's me) can go to school for clinical psychology, he has to compromise.

P.S. The invitation is still on for Tostada Tuesdays.

uhhhhh what...

 

[Kadhir]

The details of grad school selection processes are none of my business.

I have no scientific data to back this up

Got it, ok. Good luck.

 

[psych.meout]

First of all: WTF?

Second: Are you dense? Or just bad at math?

Clearly, he should be study-buddies with this guy.
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/thr...dits-for-the-uniniated-in-math.1215857/page-3

 

[LETSGONYR]

He wasn't saying that geographical restrictions are a "kiss of death" in the sense that a program will know that you're restricted and will resent/not accept you, but rather that when you limit yourself to a popular area, you risk not getting accepted anywhere because there is stiff competition for those spots. That happens to a lot of applicants.

 

[psych.meout]

He wasn't saying that geographical restrictions are a "kiss of death" in the sense that a program will know that you're restricted and will resent/not accept you, but rather that when you limit yourself to a popular area, you risk not getting accepted anywhere because there is stiff competition for those spots. That happens to a lot of applicants.

Exactly. Admissions committees are not going to care where you are from or that you've applied to many/only programs in the same region? How would they even know, unless you tell them? The only case where I can see geographical restrictions hurting your chances with committees themselves is if you mention in your personal statements or interviews that you're only applying to those programs, because they're in that geographical area. Then, you're basically telling them that your priority is location, not match with the program and faculty. Why would they choose you over someone who is a much better match with the program and a faculty member(s), regardless of where the other applicant lives and/or went to undergrad?

 

[Riggs82]

First of all: WTF?

Second: Are you dense? Or just bad at math?

erg923 That response to you was meant to be completely comical and nothing more. Oh come on man, you know you had that coming. Hahaha. That was some bad timing to pop out of nowhere and tell me to "settle down" followed up by a weak lesson on stats...

That's like two people in public having a healthy debate and then having a complete stranger walk up after he heard only the last sentence with zero context and butting in like: "woa...woa...woa............woa.....settle down. It's stats, bro."