New Doc - Need advice, please help!

[psychedout69]

I recently completed 10 years of schooling, and a year of practicum, 1 of internship, along with a year of post doc. (13 years total) For so long it seemed like there was no light at the end of the tunnel, and now I'm finally out....

At least I thought I was out....

I am $175k in debt on student loans. My student loan payment is $1200 a month. I'm trying to study for the EPPP, but the only way I can make ends meet is to work the only job I was able to get after graduation -- which is in a maximum secuity prison. The hours are long, the job is very dangerous, and to add insult to injury -- I only make around $50k/yr, which is humiliating for someone who has been through as much as I have education & experience wise.

Each day, I come home with the intention of studying for licensure, but each day I find myself physically and mentally exhausted. I have been at this job for almost a year now, and it has completely wrecked me. It's a hopeless environment, where the government requires that we do the job of 3 people, because they refuse to hire enough staff for obvious budgetary reasons.

To make things worse, since graduating -- I've noticed that most of the jobs I would be a great fit for require that you have graduated from an APA accredited school. Some even require that you've had an APA internship. I haven't got either on my resume, and it's too late for me to go back and do things over now. With the debt I have, and with the family I need to support -- I need to make money now.

Where do I go from here? Should I quit my job and focus on the EPPP (But risk bankruptcy and starvation), is there a way to get around the APA requirement so many jobs have these days? Should I bail out, and go into private practice for private pay clients?

Very discouraged after toiling for 13 years with the promise of a 6 figure salary, and a fun enjoyable job...

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[IT514]

Assuming your loans are federal, have you applied for income-based repayment?

 

[IT514]

Perhaps one motivation for licensure among others would be the National Health Service Corps loan repayment program. I know you need to be licensed for that, but I'm not sure about APA requirements. I'm guessing that they would vary on a site-by-site basis but I'm not sure. Worth looking into, anyway.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Assuming your loans are federal, have you applied for income-based repayment?

THIS.

IBR is a very very good deal for most people. It won't apply to private loans (so if you went above whatever the cap is/was when you took your loans), but it can help.

 

[erg923]

ITo make things worse, since graduating -- I've noticed that most of the jobs I would be a great fit for require that you have graduated from an APA accredited school. Some even require that you've had an APA internship. I haven't got either on my resume, and it's too late for me to go back and do things over now. With the debt I have, and with the family I need to support -- I need to make money now.

Not to use you as an example, but, for the benefit of future students on this board, perhaps you could speak about this and how your program did or DID NOT (seems more likley) address these issues with the students it was taking ten of thousands of dollars from every year...

There is generally NOT a way around this issue, espcially with the VA, DoD, and BOP, as these are hiring standards set at a national adminstrative level. . . thus individual HRs departments have no authority to overrule them or make exceptions.

 

[psychedout69]

Assuming your loans are federal, have you applied for income-based repayment?

Yes I have -- Here is something they don't ever tell you about in Grad school... They calculated my student loan payment after refi based on not just my income, but also my husband's income. My husband makes a much larger salary than mine, but they do not consider his substantial child support payments, mortgages, debts, etc -- They only look at your combined gross household income. Needless to say, if I would have known this beforehand -- We would have waited to get married until after I had refi'd!

Thanks for the response...

 

[psychedout69]

Not to use you as an example, but, for the benefit of future students on this board, perhaps you could speak about this and how your program did or DID NOT (seems more likley) address these issues with the students it was taking ten of thousands of dollars from every year...

There is generally NOT a way around this issue, espcially with the VA, DoD, and BOP, as these are hiring standards set at a national adminstrative level. . . thus individual HRs departments have no authority to overrule them or make exceptions.

Thanks for the response....

I take personal responsibility for racking up the debt, and making the decision to go the non-APA acred route. I needed to be able to work full time while in school to support my family, and the only online PHD programs I could find were of the non-APA variety, so I made that choice.

However, my program did very little to prepare us for how to best prepare for student loan debt payments, refinancing, etc... We were told that we would have very small student loan payments, and not to worry because we would be making 6 figure incomes, etc many times. Sadly, once you get out of school you realize that this is not the reality for most. Seems like everybody is cutting mental health right now, and the people I know who are employed are being worked like dogs doing crisis work for 60+ hours a week, etc.

Now I'm focussed on how to better my current situation and move forward, rather than dwell on the past. Getting out of the prison system is a huge incentive for me to pass the EPPP, but it's difficult because I'm working 60+ hours per week, and they don't allow me any study time during the days.

I think priority 1 should be finding a new job, so I can regain my sanity. I have already fulfilled my postdoc time, and had my hours signed off on -- But I don't see many jobs out there for unlicensed PHD Psych's. Does anybody have any suggestions on where I should look?

 

[psychedout69]

THIS.

IBR is a very very good deal for most people. It won't apply to private loans (so if you went above whatever the cap is/was when you took your loans), but it can help.

Thanks for the reply...

As stated above -- If you are married, and your partner makes a large income, IBR can actually become a nightmare. They don't consider any of your bills, etc -- and require you to submit your household gross income. The result can be a payment much larger than anything you would think to prepare for, when the president is out there on TV telling people he has capped their student loan payments at 10% of disposable income, or whatever -- that is an absolute lie.

 

[KillerDiller]

Yes I have -- Here is something they don't ever tell you about in Grad school... They calculated my student loan payment after refi based on not just my income, but also my husband's income. My husband makes a much larger salary than mine, but they do not consider his substantial child support payments, mortgages, debts, etc -- They only look at your combined gross household income. Needless to say, if I would have known this beforehand -- We would have waited to get married until after I had refi'd!

Thanks for the response...

I could be wrong about this, but I was under the impression that if you do not file your taxes jointly this upcoming year, then only your income will be used to calculate the IBR payments. You will likely have to pay more in taxes (or get less back, depending on the overall financial picture), but may very well save in the long run by doing it this way. Something to check into anyway.

 

[KillerDiller]

We were told that we would have very small student loan payments, and not to worry because we would be making 6 figure incomes, etc many times.

This wasn't even the case before the current recession. It's shameful that your school told students this. I'm really sorry to hear it.

 

[JeyRo]

I recently completed 10 years of schooling, and a year of practicum, 1 of internship, along with a year of post doc. (13 years total) For so long it seemed like there was no light at the end of the tunnel, and now I'm finally out....

At least I thought I was out....

I am $175k in debt on student loans. My student loan payment is $1200 a month. I'm trying to study for the EPPP, but the only way I can make ends meet is to work the only job I was able to get after graduation -- which is in a maximum secuity prison. The hours are long, the job is very dangerous, and to add insult to injury -- I only make around $50k/yr, which is humiliating for someone who has been through as much as I have education & experience wise.

Each day, I come home with the intention of studying for licensure, but each day I find myself physically and mentally exhausted. I have been at this job for almost a year now, and it has completely wrecked me. It's a hopeless environment, where the government requires that we do the job of 3 people, because they refuse to hire enough staff for obvious budgetary reasons.

To make things worse, since graduating -- I've noticed that most of the jobs I would be a great fit for require that you have graduated from an APA accredited school. Some even require that you've had an APA internship. I haven't got either on my resume, and it's too late for me to go back and do things over now. With the debt I have, and with the family I need to support -- I need to make money now.

Where do I go from here? Should I quit my job and focus on the EPPP (But risk bankruptcy and starvation), is there a way to get around the APA requirement so many jobs have these days? Should I bail out, and go into private practice for private pay clients?

Very discouraged after toiling for 13 years with the promise of a 6 figure salary, and a fun enjoyable job...

https://www.facebook.com/#!/groups/103614556354580/

Prison work can be rough. I did it for 1 month a long time ago as a contractor.

 

[psychedout69]

I could be wrong about this, but I was under the impression that if you do not file your taxes jointly this upcoming year, then only your income will be used to calculate the IBR payments. You will likely have to pay more in taxes (or get less back, depending on the overall financial picture), but may very well save in the long run by doing it this way. Something to check into anyway.

I believe this is true. I read about this extensively before doing my refi... I think the problem becomes -- IBR requires that you submit your tax returns annually so they can adjust your payment based on income. What are they going to do the following year when you file joint again?

 

[Pragma]

I believe this is true. I read about this extensively before doing my refi... I think the problem becomes -- IBR requires that you submit your tax returns annually so they can adjust your payment based on income. What are they going to do the following year when you file joint again?

I would assume that you DON'T file joint again until the situation is better and take the tax hit to help yourself here in the short term with the monthly payments.

 

[erg923]

I believe this is true. I read about this extensively before doing my refi... I think the problem becomes -- IBR requires that you submit your tax returns annually so they can adjust your payment based on income. What are they going to do the following year when you file joint again?

There is no provision that you have to. My parents have never filled joint returns...

 

[psychedout69]

Wondering if anybody else is considering not doing the clinical thing, and going for a more profitable field? I have several friends who only have Masters degrees in Psych, and they are doing the IO Psych niche, making 6 figures quite easily with low stress, and no insane patients trying to kill them daily.

Anybody else here considering IO Psych as a way to maximize profit?

Any other creative ways to use the Psych PHD to maximize profit outside of the typical private practice scenario that takes time to build, and entrepreneurial drive I may not have?

Thanks!

 

[erg923]

Wondering if anybody else is considering not doing the clinical thing, and going for a more profitable field? I have several friends who only have Masters degrees in Psych, and they are doing the IO Psych niche, making 6 figures quite easily with low stress, and no insane patients trying to kill them daily.

Anybody else here considering IO Psych as a way to maximize profit?

Any other creative ways to use the Psych PHD to maximize profit outside of the typical private practice scenario that takes time to build, and entrepreneurial drive I may not have?

Thanks!

you want to maximize your earning potential without an entrepreneurial drive?

 

[roubs]

I don't think it's viable to suddenly transition into I/O psych with an non-accredited online clinically oriented degree. Also if you have no business experience you will be severely outclassed. But I dunno, if you have several friends with only a MA/MS raking in the 6 figures then please ask them how you can copycat. It seems a little bit magical to me.

I'm really sorry you got sold a lemon of an education with ridiculous promises. Reputable programs should not make salary promises. My cohort may have had a couple people who brought with them the early career six figure salary fantasy. They were promptly smacked around with facts. Just because something is possible for someone doesn't make it the norm. You'd think people with statistical training could set aside that particular delusion.

edit: Lurkers considering making a move that the OP made would do well to read and re-read the original post until they absorb some kind of lesson from this person's experience.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

The result can be a payment much larger than anything you would think to prepare for, when the president is out there on TV telling people he has capped their student loan payments at 10% of disposable income, or whatever -- that is an absolute lie.

...no love for Obama here, trust me...this is a re-election talking point, not an actual solution to runaway tuition inflation.

Anybody else here considering IO Psych as a way to maximize profit?

Any other creative ways to use the Psych PHD to maximize profit outside of the typical private practice scenario that takes time to build, and entrepreneurial drive I may not have?

You are in for a world of hurt if you think I/O work an easy way to make 6-figures. That world is far more picky about where you went, who you know, and what you've done in the industry. I did I/O related work for a few years and the top people were Harvard/Wharton-level standouts w. 2-3+ years of prior experience at elite consulting firms. They worked harder/smarter/faster than the competition, and their goal wasn't 6-figure....it was 9-figure. You can be mediocre at your job, but you'll make far less and work more than 40hr a week. Doing clinical work isn't really harder than working at a middle of the road firm...it's just different.

 

[AnnoyedByFreud]

Wondering if anybody else is considering not doing the clinical thing, and going for a more profitable field? I have several friends who only have Masters degrees in Psych, and they are doing the IO Psych niche, making 6 figures quite easily with low stress, and no insane patients trying to kill them daily.

Anybody else here considering IO Psych as a way to maximize profit?

Any other creative ways to use the Psych PHD to maximize profit outside of the typical private practice scenario that takes time to build, and entrepreneurial drive I may not have?

Thanks!

You might want to consider a field where you'll have rx authority, if you're still interested in clinical work. That's if you have an interest in the more medical side of things... but then you'd have to go back to school. Maybe consider moving to NM or LA and becoming a prescribing psychologist? Although, I don't know if you can do that if you didn't go to an APA accredited program.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

You might want to consider a field where you'll have rx authority, if you're still interested in clinical work. That's if you have an interest in the more medical side of things... but then you'd have to go back to school.

NP programs are everywhere and the path to a secure 6-figure income is much easier. The type of work may not be for everyone...so definitely talk to professionals in the area.

 

[Sanman]

At the end of the day, private practice is your best chance at a decent income after licensure. While many places (VA, BOP, DoD) have national standards that cannot be changed, even most hospitals or other reputable agencies will not consider you for a position coming from a non-APA accredited program and will certainly not pick you if there is a candidate with APA credentials competing for the job (which there will be if it pays a remotely decent salary). You can try I/O or maybe the non-profit programs world, but most of these will require more entrepreneurial spirit and business sense than a private practice.

To a related issue, will your state even license you without any APA accreditation if you do pass the EPPP? Better to check now than after you out yourself through the trouble.

 

[erg923]

I think we had a similar question about "going I/O" not too long ago and I asked the person what they know about I/O psych and what unique skills could they bring to the table?

I think we heard crickets after that

 

[futureapppsy2]

I'm sorry you're in this situation, truly, but why would you think your loan payments would ever be "small" with six-figure debt?

 

[Sanman]

I'm sorry you're in this situation, truly, but why would you think your loan payments would ever be "small" with six-figure debt?

I'm curious if that is $175k in principle or $175k including interest. While IBR is great if you never make your anticipated income, it also adds significant interest vs paying higher interest loans off early, if I am not mistaken.

 

[JeyRo]

I'm sorry you're in this situation, truly, but why would you think your loan payments would ever be "small" with six-figure debt?

Two words: compound interest. You'd be surprised about the difference a half-dozen or so extra percentage points of interest can make in monthly payments. A few years ago students could get out of school paying less than two percent interest on their student loans. I've heard of students now (undergrads included) with double-digit effective interest rates being carried on six figure loans.

 

[JeyRo]

I'm curious if that is $175k in principle or $175k including interest. While IBR is great if you never make your anticipated income, it also adds significant interest vs paying higher interest loans off early, if I am not mistaken.

One potential backdoor I'd consider if I was in her shoes - prison work might qualify her for the Public Service Loan Forgiveness program (although I'm not sure). That way her utterly monstrous loan principal might go away in 10 years, including whatever interest gets compounded in.

However, that's a big roll of the dice, of course (e.g., betting that the government will keep it's promises, which is a bet I wouldn't easily take). But if I had that kind of principal and monthly payments (and that kind of income), I'd probably do my best to try and arrange it.

 

[ClinicalABA]

Honestly, I think your most prudent course would be to do whatever you can to get that License. My experience was that a solid week or two of 8 hours/day repeatedly taking practice exams and going through study guides worked. Yes, you don't like your job and you are tired at the end of the day, but you really should just plan on a few really crappy weeks and get this test over with. Given the limitations you indicated (on-line program, no APA-accreditation at any level of training, self-described lack of "entrepreneurial drive") the license might not make a giant financial impact, but it will likely increase your job options.

I'd caution you to think very carefully before investing more time or money into additional training. There is a behavioral/economic principal known as "escalation". In more colloquial terms- "throwing good money after bad". In more behavioral terms, it's "a form of resistance to extinction arising from experiences with past investments that were variably reinforced."* You've invested 13 years of study and $175K, and aren't getting the reinforcement you want. While the tendency might be to continue to display similar behaviors (e.g. more study, such as through a I/O or Rx program), doing so might get you to point where it is not possible to ever recoup your investment of time and money, as you can only earn so much for so long. As painful as it may be, you really might be better off maximizing what you can do with your online, non-accredited, ridiculously expensive degree (I don't write that last sentence to be mean or arrogant- I include it in case there is anyone reading this who might be considering a similar path. Honestly folks, if there were reliable shortcuts to a doctoral degree and six figure incomes, why the heck do you think any of us would have quit our days jobs and spent 5+ years at a bricks and mortar school, with no guarantees of anything?).

*From: Goltz, S.M. (1992). A sequential learning analysis of decisions in organizations to escalate investments despite continuing costs or losses. Journal of Applied Behavior Analysis, 23(3), 561-574.

 

[JeyRo]

Oh, and one other thing the OP might consider:

http://studentaid.ed.gov/PORTALSWebApp/students/english/specialconsolidation.jsp

Goes away at the end of June, so if you get all the paperwork in now you might qualify. Not sure. Don't know if it would help you, or if you qualify (I'm guessing you would qualify - most students with big debt loans these days carry a mix of government and private debt).

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

I'd caution you to think very carefully before investing more time or money into additional training. There is a behavioral/economic principal known as "escalation". In more colloquial terms- "throwing good money after bad".

*slightly tangential*

I have never seen it framed as escalation, though I am mostly familiar with these ideas through the work of Kahneman and some popular Game theorists. Either way...this is definitely a consideration, particularly if $$ and not the ability to provide clinical work is the primary objective. I personally would strongly consider getting licensed since the OP is 95% of the way there.

 

[psychedout69]

To a related issue, will your state even license you without any APA accreditation if you do pass the EPPP? Better to check now than after you out yourself through the trouble.

Yes they will, I researched this in advance -- thankfully This is the case with most states, but if someone is reading this and deciding on a program to pursue -- Do your research in advance. Even once licensed, folks like myself without the APA acred can't work most government/military related jobs, etc that require it.

 

[psychedout69]

I think we had a similar question about "going I/O" not too long ago and I asked the person what they know about I/O psych and what unique skills could they bring to the table?

I think we heard crickets after that

It seems to be a field that most weren't interested in while I was in school. Now that I'm out, and have friends reporting good success on that side of the industry, it just made me think a little... Thanks for the replies!

 

[psychedout69]

I'm sorry you're in this situation, truly, but why would you think your loan payments would ever be "small" with six-figure debt?

I was told it would be a managable percentage of *my* disposable income. Never once did anyone mention that they would consider our combined household gross income. Others should definitey learn from this lesson.

Thanks!

 

[psychedout69]

One potential backdoor I'd consider if I was in her shoes - prison work might qualify her for the Public Service Loan Forgiveness program (although I'm not sure). That way her utterly monstrous loan principal might go away in 10 years, including whatever interest gets compounded in.

However, that's a big roll of the dice, of course (e.g., betting that the government will keep it's promises, which is a bet I wouldn't easily take). But if I had that kind of principal and monthly payments (and that kind of income), I'd probably do my best to try and arrange it.

Thanks for this reply. It does qualify me, and I have considered it. I think I'd lose my sanity and my marriage if I stayed in this position for 10 years, however. I don't think it's a viable option.

 

[psychedout69]

*slightly tangential*

I have never seen it framed as escalation, though I am mostly familiar with these ideas through the work of Kahneman and some popular Game theorists. Either way...this is definitely a consideration, particularly if $$ and not the ability to provide clinical work is the primary objective. I personally would strongly consider getting licensed since the OP is 95% of the way there.

This is good advice. Thanks for the support. I've been studying for several months now on and off, and need to buckle down and get this done. No excuses.

 

[Shatani]

I think priority 1 should be finding a new job, so I can regain my sanity. I have already fulfilled my postdoc time, and had my hours signed off on -- But I don't see many jobs out there for unlicensed PHD Psych's. Does anybody have any suggestions on where I should look?

Not all prison work is that bad. I have three friends who work in prisons and they actually like their jobs a lot. is there a possibility of taking the prison experience you already have and transitioning to a more favorable environment? maybe minimum security or something of that nature?

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Not all prison work is that bad. I have three friends who work in prisons and they actually like their jobs a lot. is there a possibility of taking the prison experience you already have and transitioning to a more favorable environment? maybe minimum security or something of that nature?

Agreed, and you may have a good bit more negotiation "leverage" once licensed as well.

 

[JeyRo]

Agreed, and you may have a good bit more negotiation "leverage" once licensed as well.

I think it's worth thinking about. When you have loans of approaching 200K and income in the mid five-figures (and training unaccredited at all levels) the only real escape hatch I can see is the PSLF program via prison work....