Not hearing back from schools

[Lolaaa]

So I haven't heard anything from any MD school that I applied for (including the ones in my state) even though I submitted my apps pretty early in the cycle. Is this a bad sign?

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[M&L]

No, it’s still too early . I applied the first day , and didn’t get first invite till end of September. Ended up with 5 interviews and 4 acceptances .

 

[Lolaaa]

No, it’s still too early . I applied the first day , and didn’t get first invite till end of September. Ended up with 5 interviews and 4 acceptances .

wow this gives me hope. Thank you!❤️

 

[LizzyM]

Schools may not get back to you until November, even if you applied early. Hang on, continue improving your application in preparation a second cycle if needed and don't worry about not hearing from schools until Thanksgiving.

 

[KnightDoc]

Medical can get thousands of applications but can only evaluate and review a few to several hundred a week at best when up to full speed. And full speed is not reached until after Labor day. Therefore it can 4-16 weeks (1-4) months for your application to be reviewed.

Additionally I always like to point out that Medical schools are deciding on the simple question: acceptance? Yes/no. Since every applicant starts as “non-accepted” a school in under obligation to contact with any information other than an interview invite, acceptance, or WL alternate.

Yup. I respectfully disagree with you every year when you say this, and I will do so more vociferously this year as an actual applicant.

We might start out as non-accepted, but we also start out as non-rejected. It's extremely frustrating, and more than a little obnoxious, for schools not to communicate rejections in a timely manner, if at all. That would cost them NOTHING, and give thousands of applicants at every school valuable insight into how they should be spending their time and where they should be focusing their attention, as well as planning the next few years of their lives.

Schools have the information from the very first day they look at the very first application. Through automated screening, they each make literally thousands of rejection decisions at the very beginning of the cycle. A select few schools crush our dreams early and let us get on with our lives. The rest leave us to twist in the wind, often for the entire cycle, for no reason at all, and with no benefit to them. Just stopping the incessant questions on SDN regarding stats and completion date on every school specific thread every single time anyone reports any action at all from an adcom is reason enough for them to push out Rs as soon as they are determined.

It's easy to tell us to assume the worst and chase our tails until we receive an acceptance, but that would be a huge waste of time for viable candidates who are likely to receive at least one acceptance. More importantly, there is absolutely no reason for these large institutions to play hide the ball with rejections, other than pure arrogance.

It doesn't take 4 months to decide what to do with the majority of a 5-10K pool for 100-200 spots. To quote your oft cited statistics, 80-90+% of the decisions are negative, and they aren't all made at the end of the cycle. In fact, a huge chunk of them are made pretty early on. Why on earth don't the schools share???

THIS is what leads to all the anxiety, not the fact that we are all super neurotic and need a few Xanax. Have I been reviewed yet? Have I already been rejected? If so, why not tell me? Because you don't have to? That's BS. How about treating me like a human being in return for my $100+? The process is inherently hyper competitive and nerve wracking. Why do schools go out of their way to make it even worse? Because they can and they are under no obligation not to? REALLY????

 

[Goro]

Yup. I respectfully disagree with you every year when you say this, and I will do so more vociferously this year as an actual applicant.

We might start out as non-accepted, but we also start out as non-rejected. It's extremely frustrating, and more than a little obnoxious, for schools not to communicate rejections in a timely manner, if at all. That would cost them NOTHING, and give thousands of applicants at every school valuable insight into how they should be spending their time and where they should be focusing their attention, as well as planning the next few years of their lives.

Schools have the information from the very first day they look at the very first application. Through automated screening, they each make literally thousands of rejection decisions at the very beginning of the cycle. A select few schools crush our dreams early and let us get on with our lives. The rest leave us to twist in the wind, often for the entire cycle, for no reason at all, and with no benefit to them. Just stopping the incessant questions on SDN regarding stats and completion date on every school specific thread every single time anyone reports any action at all from an adcom is reason enough for them to push out Rs as soon as they are determined.

It's easy to tell us to assume the worst and chase our tails until we receive an acceptance, but that would be a huge waste of time for viable candidates who are likely to receive at least one acceptance. More importantly, there is absolutely no reason for these large institutions to play hide the ball with rejections, other than pure arrogance.

It doesn't take 4 months to decide what to do with the majority of a 5-10K pool for 100-200 spots. To quote your oft cited statistics, 80-90+% of the decisions are negative, and they aren't all made at the end of the cycle. In fact, a huge chuck of them are made pretty early on. Why on earth don't the schools share???

THIS is what leads to all the anxiety, not the fact that we are all super neurotic and need a few Xanax. Have I been reviewed yet? Have I already been rejected? If so, why not tell me? Because you don't have to? That's BS. How about treating me like a human being in return for my $100+? The process is inherently hyper competitive and nerve wracking. Why do schools go out of their way to make it even worse? Because they can and they are under no obligation not to? REALLY????

Ahhh, so much entitlement, so little time.

Your experience with Admissions is exactly what? Other than being an applicant?

The process is indeed a negative one. You start out rejected. Med schools determine who to interview (vis and then decide who to accept.

The apps may be all in the Admissions computer at once starting, say, 8/15, but then human eyeballs have to vet them.

And to the OP, patience is a virtue, the need for instant gratification is not.

SDNers are strongly advised to not have the attitude of "I've sent in my applications...where are all my invites!"

 

[KnightDoc]

Ahhh, so much entitlement, so little time.

Your experience with Admissions is exactly what? Other than being an applicant?

The process is indeed a negative one. You start out rejected. Med schools determine who to interview (vis and then decide who to accept.

The apps may be all in the Admissions computer at once starting, say, 8/15, but then human eyeballs have to vet them.

And to the OP, patience is a virtue, the need for instant gratification is not.

SDNers are strongly advised to not have the attitude of "I've sent in my applications...where are all my invites!"

I hear you, and am afraid you are misreading my missive. No entitlement. Certainly not with respect to IIs. My expectation (honestly, not even an expectation anymore, since I have been conditioned to know better) is just for a little transparency and prompt communication. No reason to leave me hanging for a year (hoping for some good news) when I have been rejected within a month of applying. We literally start out as no decision, not rejected. After all, if we were rejected, there would be no reason to pay the fee or submit the application, or to accept any IIs, since we are already rejected!

I hear what you're saying about human eyeballs, but, let's face it, human eyeballs only spend a few minutes, if that, on a majority of applications at many schools prior to placement in the R pile. Of course, more time is spent on people receiving IIs, but that's not the majority of any pool. I don't need to be an admissions insider to know this. It's common sense, and is very inferable from studying the process from the outside, learning from knowledgeable people such as yourself, and observing how some schools do magically find a way to be communicative and transparent with their applicants.

It might take 4 months to make it through all applications, but it certainly does not take 4 months to reject the vast majority of people who are going to find themselves rejected. And, even then, some schools don't share that until the end of the cycle.

Yes, it's a sellers' market. And no, they don't owe us anything. That doesn't make any of this right, and there really is no reason for it.

 

[LizzyM]

I suspect, although I have no first hand knowledge in this regard, that schools avoid sending rejection letters early in the season to avoid getting inundated with messages objecting to the decision and asking for a second review. There is also the ugly situation of rejecting someone only to find out that their relative (different last name) is a "big deal" who should have, at least, gotten a courtesy interview. I've also seen state schools that suddenly find OOS applicants very attractive after the state budget is finalized and the school finds itself with a gap in funding.

 

[KnightDoc]

I suspect, although I have no first hand knowledge in this regard, that schools avoid sending rejection letters early in the season to avoid getting inundated with messages objecting to the decision and asking for a second review. There is also the ugly situation of rejecting someone only to find out that their relative (different last name) is a "big deal" who should have, at least, gotten a courtesy interview. I've also seen state schools that suddenly find OOS applicants very attractive after the state budget is finalized and the school finds itself with a gap in funding.

With all due respect, these are not valid reasons to leave people hanging for months on end. If someone should receive a courtesy interview, why not give it to them? How does not communicating with them through a cycle mitigate this issue? If they are rejected early, it could be fixed. Not communicating until the end could end up having real costs in terms of losing whatever the VIP was bringing to the table!

Same thing with unhappy applicants. Either use some of the $100+ secondary fees to hire a $15/hour staffer to answer the phone, or just handle them in September or October via the same form e-mail you probably send in March or April, stating how wonderful they are, how it's you and not them, but the pool is so damn competitive that difficult decisions must be made, and, unfortunately, all decisions are final. Not wanting to have to deal with a few pissed off people until a class is seated is not a reason to screw over thousands of people who are entitled to know where they stand within a reasonable period of time once you know.

Finally, what state medical school budgets are finalized so last minute that schools have to adjust the IS/OOS mix mid cycle? These are four year decisions. Are they really made last minute like this based on transitory state budget issues? With all due respect, I'm just not buying this. Even if it's true, you're talking about a few students one way or the other on the margin. All schools literally have scores or hundreds of people on WLs for just this purpose. This is not a reason to sit on thousands of Rs for months on end.

 

[Damson]

With all due respect, these are not valid reasons to leave people hanging for months on end. If someone should receive a courtesy interview, why not give it to them? How does not communicating with them through a cycle mitigate this issue? If they are rejected early, it could be fixed. Not communicating until the end could end up having real costs in terms of losing whatever the VIP was bringing to the table!

Same thing with unhappy applicants. Either use some of the $100+ secondary fees to hire a $15/hour staffer to answer the phone, or just handle them in September or October via the same form e-mail you probably send in March or April, stating how wonderful they are, how it's you and not them, but the pool is so damn competitive that difficult decisions must be made, and, unfortunately, all decisions are final. Not wanting to have to deal with a few pissed off people until a class is seated is not a reason to screw over thousands of people who are entitled to know where they stand within a reasonable period of time once you know.

Finally, what state medical school budgets are finalized so last minute that schools have to adjust the IS/OOS mix mid cycle? These are four year decisions. Are they really made last minute like this based on transitory state budget issues? With all due respect, I'm just not buying this. Even if it's true, you're talking about a few students one way or the other on the margin. All schools literally have scores or hundreds of people on WLs for just this purpose. This is not a reason to sit on thousands of Rs for months on end.

your posts are getting longer and longer

it is most useful for the sdn community to see thoughtful but also succinct posts. it makes your point easier to digest for everyone

 

[LizzyM]

With all due respect, these are not valid reasons to leave people hanging for months on end. If someone should receive a courtesy interview, why not give it to them? How does not communicating with them through a cycle mitigate this issue? If they are rejected early, it could be fixed. Not communicating until the end could end up having real costs in terms of losing whatever the VIP was bringing to the table!

Same thing with unhappy applicants. Either use some of the $100+ secondary fees to hire a $15/hour staffer to answer the phone, or just handle them in September or October via the same form e-mail you probably send in March or April, stating how wonderful they are, how it's you and not them, but the pool is so damn competitive that difficult decisions must be made, and, unfortunately, all decisions are final. Not wanting to have to deal with a few pissed off people until a class is seated is not a reason to screw over thousands of people who are entitled to know where they stand within a reasonable period of time once you know.

Finally, what state medical school budgets are finalized so last minute that schools have to adjust the IS/OOS mix mid cycle? These are four year decisions. Are they really made last minute like this based on transitory state budget issues? With all due respect, I'm just not buying this. Even if it's true, you're talking about a few students one way or the other on the margin. All schools literally have scores or hundreds of people on WLs for just this purpose. This is not a reason to sit on thousands of Rs for months on end.

You can't give a courtesy interview in February if the person has been rejected in October. Rejection is non-reversible, or should be, and so a school is loath to do it too early for a number of reasons. Some "connected" applicants will want to get in on the strength of the application alone but when it gets to be December with no interview, then "uncle" pulls some strings.

I know of a state (that shall remain nameless) that was interviewing people in June for classes starting 6 weeks later because suddenly collecting some OOS tuition from people sounds like a plan.

Schools hate to burn bridges.... and prepare yourself, some will never let you know that you weren't admitted. I'm not saying it is right, just saying that it happens.

And don't get me started on the schools that admit 250 to fill the class (allowing for some applicants who go elsewhere) and keeping another 250 on the waiting list.... as if 80% of that pool have a snowball's chance in hell of getting off the list.

 

[KnightDoc]

You can't give a courtesy interview in February if the person has been rejected in October. Rejection is non-reversible, or should be, and so a school is loath to do it too early for a number of reasons. Some "connected" applicants will want to get in on the strength of the application alone but when it gets to be December with no interview, then "uncle" pulls some strings.

I know of a state (that shall remain nameless) that was interviewing people in June for classes starting 6 weeks later because suddenly collecting some OOS tuition from people sounds like a plan.

Schools hate to burn bridges.... and prepare yourself, some will never let you know that you weren't admitted. I'm not saying it is right, just saying that it happens.

And don't get me started on the schools that admit 250 to fill the class (allowing for some applicants who go elsewhere) and keeping another 250 on the waiting list.... as if 80% of that pool have a snowball's chance in hell of getting off the list.

I am fully aware that you are one of the "good" ones who generally has our interests at heart (as evidenced by your taking time to participate on SDN). I am also keenly aware of the environment created by the sellers' market. I agree with you that it's not right, and schools with more user friendly admissions offices somehow find a way to meet their obligations without jerking candidates around for a year.

If transparency became a thing, uncles would learn to pull strings in August instead of waiting until January. I actually totally understand the 100% seat coverage on the WL, in order to give the adcom infinite choices from which to fill vacancies in order to mold the class. In fact, that's the very reason there is no reason to leave the other 90% of the pool in limbo until the CTE date.

As far as rejection being irreversible, all I can say is that string pulling also isn't supposed to be a thing, so YMMV, but mistakes happen and obviously can be reversed for the right person who needs a courtesy interview before a final rejection. I also don't understand why any school would be trolling for OOS candidates 6 weeks before orientation. Since when do schools totally exhaust their WLs? In any event, the solution to that possibility is a bigger WL, not keeping 5,000 people in limbo for a year!

 

[LizzyM]

I didn't say the waitlist was exhausted... only that the school specifically wanted OOS candidates when they hadn't any of those on the waitlist.

I've been a volunteer in admissions for >20 years. I don't make the rules that the office operates under and I don't even know when my school sends rejection letters, etc. I don't get a say in those policies but it has made me more aware of how these policies affect applicants and has shaped the policies I do have some say over in grad admissions. My thanks to everyone who participates here and gives me a look at the process from the applicants' points of view.

 

[KnightDoc]

I didn't say the waitlist was exhausted... only that the school specifically wanted OOS candidates when they hadn't any of those on the waitlist.

I've been a volunteer in admissions for >20 years. I don't make the rules that the office operates under and I don't even know when my school sends rejection letters, etc. I don't get a say in those policies but it has made me more aware of how these policies affect applicants and has shaped the policies I do have some say over in grad admissions. My thanks to everyone who participates here and gives me a look at the process from the applicants' points of view.

Okay, so the OOS WL was exhausted!!

For the record, my posts are nothing more than advocacy for those adversely impacted, as reflected by the numerous posts on SDN. Specifically, all the "complete date, stats?" posts every time adcom activity is posted on a school specific thread. While I don't necessarily consider myself rejected everywhere until notified otherwise, I'm also realistic enough to know where I stand at most schools that I don't believe I'm clinging to false hope anywhere.

The process is hyper competitive and nerve wracking. People who are overly optimistic with respect to the quality of their application really deserve to know where they stand once that has been determined by the schools, rather than being left to cling to false hope because some school doesn't want to risk prematurely rejecting someone connected to a VIP, or because a school can't figure out how to properly construct a WL.

People also complain that it takes a year to go from initial submission to final decision for those on WLs after the PTE deadline, but I totally get why that's unavoidable. Not communicating rejection decisions promptly, OTOH, is inexcusable. Schools do it because they can, and because they honestly don't give a crap about these candidates. They focus their time and energy on the candidates they do care about, and neglect the masses whose application fees actually fund their admission process.

Every school doesn't act this way, which is all the evidence needed to prove things don't have to be this way. I have no doubt you'd fix it if you could.

 

[KnightDoc]

you are missing the reality entirely.

You all start non accepted or effectively as rejected. Let me repeat that, you all start as effectively rejected.

Now understand this. You all start as unaccepted and remain in that status. And there is no obligation for a school unless a school invites you for an interview or accepts you. In other words, there is no reason to notify you of the same status you had before even submitted the application. That is in fact how this all works, schools are deciding on these thousands of non-accepted applicants on which ones to accept.

And in the reality of all this, the actuality of this, the only reason you feel left hanging, frustrated, etc, is your expectations. You can scream and shout all you want on how this isnt how the admissions process should treat applicants, they should contact us, keep us informed, let us know, etc. Now why you have that expectation is a real question. If I apply for a job nowadays, or send a text/message on a dating app, or try out for a acting roles, do I have some sort of "right" or expectation for a rejection? I will strongly suggest you need to reevaluate your expectations.

A few more thoughts
1) medical schools are now getting thousands more applications with little growth in staff, little increase in budget, and especially no extra time to deal with them.
2) it does indeed take up 4 months or more to fully process applications with evaluation and review. I have repeatedly explained how the process works but applicants still somehow believe differently.
3) The system is perfectly fair. each school is free to find the best people, in their opinion, who will make good physicians. Oh you mean fairness to the applicants? Simple, you can apply or not, your choice. Once you apply you have agreed to the terms and conditions that each school dictates. Schools are trying to produce doctors for further trainer and applicants are the raw material for that process. That is truly the reality of this process. I am not passing judgment on whether it is good or bad. It is simply the reality you face.

A few responses to your thoughts:
1) Medical schools are now getting hundreds of thousands more dollars in application fees as a result of the surge in applications. They should consider using that money to properly resource their admissions function to provide applicants with the attention they deserve.

2) I have no doubt it takes 4 months (or more) to get through ALL of the applications, but it certainly does not take that length of time to get through EACH of them. Rejection decisions (actual, final ones, not the theoretical, preliminary one we all start out with that magically changes to an II for between 5-30+% of us, depending on the school and IS or OOS status) are made continuously throughout this 4 month window, many times in after as little as a few minutes of review, if that.

3) I am absolutely not questioning the fairness of the system. I am questioning the contempt and callous disregard with which these hallowed paragons of virtue that preach humanism, empathy and compassion treat their applicants, by unnecessarily leaving them twisting in an intense, anxiety inducing process, sometimes for up to a year.

Many employers absolutely do let candidates know whether or not they have been chosen to proceed in an application process. Regardless, that is an entirely different process, involving dozens or hundreds of candidates for a single position. This is different. It's thousands of applicants for hundreds of IIs. Negative decisions are continuously made and not communicated, for no reason other than schools have no requirement to communicate, and they choose not to do the right thing.

Again, call it what you want, but, if I really believed I was "starting as" rejected, everywhere, I wouldn't waste my time or money sending in applications. The fact that anyone ever receives an II or A anywhere betrays the fallacy of that statement. You can call it starting out rejected if you like, but, to me, if it's not a final decision, it's not a decision at all. I think I start out with no decision at all, until one is communicated to me. I am pretty sure my characterization is more accurate, given how many times per week things change for all of us throughout the US MD universe.

Either way, let's say you are right, and we all start out as rejected. Later, our apps are reviewed, and that status is either confirmed or changed. Some people aren't reviewed for 4 months, or more. Others are reviewed 4 minutes after reviews begin. If our rejection is confirmed, we should be informed, and told that it won't be changing this cycle.

Why? Because otherwise, we all know that it will change for around 15% of all applicants at each school, and we applied in the hope, if not expectation, that we might be among that 15%. If it's not going to happen for us, that is valuable information that one could argue we have a right to know. Why is that so difficult, or unreasonable? Sellers' market? That should not be the catch all for every obnoxious thing admissions offices do!

 

[yokiguz]

As an applicant, I understand what KnightDoc is getting at. For example, I was extremely happy to get an R from Mayo this week (as opposed to hearing nothing for months). It would be great for schools who have already decided to reject me to just send me the email now. I also understand with admissions it is not as simple as R or II, but if a school decides to send me the R based on a screen/algorithm I'd much rather hear early.

 

[KnightDoc]

As an applicant, I understand what KnightDoc is getting at. For example, I was extremely happy to get an R from Mayo this week (as opposed to hearing nothing for months). It would be great for schools who have already decided to reject me to just send me the email now. I also understand with admissions it is not as simple as R or II, but if a school decides to send me the R based on a screen/algorithm I'd much rather hear early.

THIS^^^^^. The alternative, at many schools, is that you are rejected, not in the general "we all start out rejected" sense, but actually rejected. Not 4 months from now, but now, or last month, or next month, and they just don't tell you because they no longer care about you, and their attention is focused elsewhere.

Many people take the hint after a while, but others keep clinging to hope, because they haven't heard and, you know, everyone has a n=1 story of someone receiving a late II. It keeps them from doing what they need to do, either by focusing on schools that want them, or by doing what they should be doing to have better applications in a future cycle. It's cruel, and it's unnecessary, in the vast majority of cases, for the vast majority of applicants.

 

[LizzyM]

With regard to fees, the sad fact is that those secondary fees don't go to the admissions office. They go to the medical school's general fund or even the university's fund. Then sometime in the late winter or spring the admissions office, along with every other unit of the medical school submits a budget for the fiscal year starting in July or September. The largest portion of that budget is staffing and hiring freezes at the institution level can mess things up, even if you've budgeted for a new clerk or receptionist to handle the increase in calls and emails. Just giving you a look from the other side. The admissions office is not autonomous.

How many of you would have wanted to have been informed within 2 business days of your application being sent to the medical school that you had been rejected? It could be done for at least 40% of the applicants that come through at most schools. I, for one, don't have the stomach to do that for grad applicants and I acknowledge receipt and hold the application for at least a week (of course, grad admissions has a shorter cycle).

Keep doing whatever you'll do to prepare for another cycle or whatever you'll do if you are, in the end, not going to medical school next summer. If you end up in the minority of applicants who matriculate somewhere, great! But if you end up in the majority, you are better prepared for whatever you are going to do next year.

 

[KnightDoc]

With regard to fees, the sad fact is that those secondary fees don't go to the admissions office. They go to the medical school's general fund or even the university's fund. Then sometime in the late winter or spring the admissions office, along with every other unit of the medical school submits a budget for the fiscal year starting in July or September. The largest portion of that budget is staffing and hiring freezes at the institution level can mess things up, even if you've budgeted for a new clerk or receptionist to handle the increase in calls and emails. Just giving you a look from the other side. The admissions office is not autonomous.

How many of you would have wanted to have been informed within 2 business days of your application being sent to the medical school that you had been rejected? It could be done for at least 40% of the applicants that come through at most schools. I, for one, don't have the stomach to do that for grad applicants and I acknowledge receipt and hold the application for at least a week (of course, grad admissions has a shorter cycle).

Keep doing whatever you'll do to prepare for another cycle or whatever you'll do if you are, in the end, not going to medical school next summer. If you end up in the minority of applicants who matriculate somewhere, great! But if you end up in the majority, you are better prepared for whatever you are going to do next year.

With regard to budgets and fees, with all due respect, so what? The fees are going into the same pot that funds the budget, whether it's at the admissions office level, med school level, or university level. My point still applies. Drowning in applications while also drowning in application fees is no reason to be unable to function effectively. If this is not the case, fee rebates should be issued if the school is unable to employ the funds as intended.

With respect to quick rejections, no, of course no one wants that, but, it's honest and transparent if a decision has been made. TBH, if schools weren't so hungry for those fees that are apparently used for things other than processing applications, they could issue their automated rejections immediately upon receipt of the primary, as some of the more ethical schools do.

Such rejections are undoubtedly disappointing to receive, but they do impacted applicants a great service by signaling potential issues with an application early in the cycle, rather than stringing candidates along as part of an illusion that a deeper review is being performed than is actually the case. Yet another example of questionable conduct from institutions that wouldn't tolerate the same from candidates.

Your last bit of advice is gold but, as you know from your participation on SDN, overly optimistic premeds find it impossible to follow. Especially with all the supportive posts and n=1 success stories that provide hope and encouragement while you are already sitting on a pile of Rs that you don't release.

 

[Damson]

I got a DO interview during the summer, 2 months prior to matriculation date, when the next cycle had already started. It's useful for the school to hold on to applications so that if the class doesn't quite fill at the end, they can do last-minute interviews and acceptances.

That's worth a year of waiting for the premed vs. getting R within a week.

Other schools like to hold on to applications in order to bump the candidates that show interest.

 

[KnightDoc]

I will say one last thing on this: you can argue all you want about What should be and how schools should react. I am simply telling you what it is, how schools can and will behave, and how you need to adjust expectations in order to psychologically and emotionally survive this process. That is the equation here. There is no one forcing you to apply and have to face this Perceived gauntlet of abuse to applicants. But if you choose to apply this is what to expect. Banging your head against the wall About it will not make it any easier

You're absolutely right. I'm just venting and advocating for change. I'm fully aware of the charms of the sellers' market. Believe me, it would be impossible for any school to fail to meet my lofty expectations here!

 

[deleted1017120]

The major difference between gonnif's examples and applying to medical school is the application fees.

Regardless of how schools will act, KnightDoc's argument relies on an expectation that is the result of paying for a service. The idea is that schools have a certain ethical standard to meet in terms of how they treat paying applicants if we are being asked to fork over $100 (for the average school) just to have them look at our application. Courtesy, professionalism, prompt communication. I don't think it's being overly-entitled to expect these things if we are paying so much money to, in all likelihood, only get the most cursory look at our application before it is (metaphorically) shredded.

Also, giving general advice of "always prepare as if you aren't getting into school!" doesn't make a lot of difference in the real world. There are many opportunities that are missed because of the "what-if", even if you are trying to plan for the worst-case scenario. If it is assumed that you will drop everything and attend medical school should you get an acceptance, then there are many professional and personal opportunities in life that you absolutely cannot commit to while you're waiting for decisions to come in.

I got a low waitlist spot last year, and if I had known that earlier than April, I would have taken advantage of multiple professional opportunities that I could have completed before next year's matriculation time, but because I couldn't 100% commit to them, I missed out.

 

[Goro]

The major difference between gonnif's examples and applying to medical school is the application fees.

Regardless of how schools will act, KnightDoc's argument relies on an expectation that is the result of paying for a service. The idea is that schools have a certain ethical standard to meet in terms of how they treat paying applicants if we are being asked to fork over $100 (for the average school) just to have them look at our application. Courtesy, professionalism, prompt communication. I don't think it's being overly-entitled to expect these things if we are paying so much money to, in all likelihood, only get the most cursory look at our application before it is (metaphorically) shredded.

Also, giving general advice of "always prepare as if you aren't getting into school!" doesn't make a lot of difference in the real world. There are many opportunities that are missed because of the "what-if", even if you are trying to plan for the worst-case scenario. If it is assumed that you will drop everything and attend medical school should you get an acceptance, then there are many professional and personal opportunities in life that you absolutely cannot commit to while you're waiting for decisions to come in.

I got a low waitlist spot last year, and if I had known that earlier than April, I would have taken advantage of multiple professional opportunities that I could have completed before next year's matriculation time, but because I couldn't 100% commit to them, I missed out.

Flaw in thinking #1) The bolded is mistaken in that it is treating med school admissions as a consumer. Applying to medical school is not like buying a garden hose at WallyWorld, or getting a handyman to fix your screen door. You are paying a fee for a service, meaning, applying to medical school.

What's that, you ask? But you pay a fee to have your taxes done? True, but that service comes with extras. Med school apps do not.

Flaw in thinking #2) But we're not talking about the real world...we are talking about a process in which some 60% of the applicants never get an acceptance in the cycle. Thus, it is only wise thinking in that one has a Plan B. In fact, Plan B is asked about in interviews. The people who say "I'm going to keep on applying until I'm 80!" are displaying the mistaken belief that determination is favored over wisdom. Or they're just outright immature. As the wise @gyngyn once pointed out, "every surgeon enters the OR with a backup plan".

You could have asked for a deferral had you been accepted, or in reality, what professional opportunities are worth more than an acceptance to med school? There aren't that many situations were you would have been sued for breach of contract. You surely weren't going into the military, either? Anyway, even if your logic is correct, it's also irrelevant to the point at hand.

 

[BioPsychotic]

No wonder depression and suicidal ideation rates among medical students are so high. Students have the soul sucked out of them before opening a single anatomy textbook.

When a system is broken, everyone has a role to play in fixing it.

Some measures to increase transparency could go a long way.

 

[DoctorFate]

I'm with @KnightDoc. I think letting applicants know when they are actually rejected (as opposed to the ostensible notion that everyone is rejected) would be very beneficial to us and it's the "right" thing to do. I think everyone here is in agreement that there's no legal obligation for schools to do this, just that it would be nice for them to. Last cycle, I appreciated those schools that responded promptly.

Honestly, what I'm getting from this thread is the medical schools treat applicants terribly, and most adcoms, including many on SDN, are completely fine with that and even rationalize it through ostensible sayings such as "everyone starts off rejected", flawed consumer analogies, and remarks about entitlement. But I think we all already knew that, and I doubt SDN discussions will cause any change whatsoever so I'm not really going to bother arguing haha. Sucks, but it is what it is.

 

[deleted1017120]

Flaw in thinking #1) The bolded is mistaken in that it is treating med school admissions as a consumer. Applying to medical school is not like buying a garden hose at WallyWorld, or getting a handyman to fix your screen door. You are paying a fee for a service, meaning, applying to medical school.

What's that, you ask? But you pay a fee to have your taxes done? True, but that service comes with extras. Med school apps do not.

Flaw in thinking #2) But we're not talking about the real world...we are talking about a process in which some 60% of the applicants never get an acceptance in the cycle. Thus, it is only wise thinking in that one has a Plan B. In fact, Plan B is asked about in interviews. The people who say "I'm going to keep on applying until I'm 80!" are displaying the mistaken belief that determination is favored over wisdom. Or they're just outright immature. As the wise @gyngyn once pointed out, "every surgeon enters the OR with a backup plan".

You could have asked for a deferral had you been accepted, or in reality, what professional opportunities are worth more than an acceptance to med school? There aren't that many situations were you would have been sued for breach of contract. You surely weren't going into the military, either? Anyway, even if your logic is correct, it's also irrelevant to the point at hand.

1) You state that applying to medical school is "not like buying a consumer product", which is of course true. The application fee is for the service of having our application reviewed for admittance. With that said, you didn't state any reason that we, as the individuals paying for a service, shouldn't reasonably expect a baseline level of service quality due to how much we pay for this service.

2) Yes, every applicant should have a Plan B. The issue that I see is that it would be far more feasible to make/act upon a more robust Plan B if applicants knew their fate further ahead of time. The ultimate issue is that it seems like an ethical lapse to have schools know that a given applicant is going to end up a rejection but just sit on them for months; this can drastically affect an actual human being's life for the next year or more in order to not reject them for some fairly shallow reasons.

Also, I am, in fact, in the military currently.

 

[BioPsychotic]

To not have expectations is a privilege. The application process is a real thing that affects people’s lives in real ways.

Some of you may serve on AAMC’s advising boards as physicians. Keep these discussions in mind when you do.

Debating an issue that affects thousands of people who we entrust to heal our country is definitely not a waste of time.

 

[deleted1017120]

Based on the logic of, "this discussion won't change anything, so stop talking about it", what is the point of any discussion? Why are we all on a long-post forum?

The point of public discourse is, of course, multi-faceted. It is often just a way for people to complain about stuff in a shared space, vent off emotional frustration, and relate to each other. However, it's also important so that people can share opinions, learn new things, and adjust their own viewpoints. It may help ADCOMS on these boards to hear the experiences of applicants, and as BioPsychotic said, it may give them more insight into how they should change admissions processes if they are in a position to do so. Conversely, these discussions help applicants see what the experience is from the institutional side and adjust their understanding accordingly.

The least helpful comments are the ones that boil down to, "this is how it is, discussion is a useless waste of time, take it or leave it". These sentiments come from a place of privilege and are almost always used to prop up the status quo so that the people that currently benefit the most can continue to do so.

The entire point of long-post forums like these is to have discussions. I don't see why people think that the best answer to a nuanced discussion is, "it isn't gonna change, why are you talking about it anyway?".

 

[DoctorFate]

Based on the logic of, "this discussion won't change anything, so stop talking about it", what is the point of any discussion? Why are we all on a long-post forum?

The point of public discourse is, of course, multi-faceted. It is often just a way for people to complain about stuff in a shared space, vent off emotional frustration, and relate to each other. However, it's also important so that people can share opinions, learn new things, and adjust their own viewpoints. It may help ADCOMS on these boards to hear the experiences of applicants, and as BioPsychotic said, it may give them more insight into how they should change admissions processes if they are in a position to do so. Conversely, these discussions help applicants see what the experience is from the institutional side and adjust their understanding accordingly.

The least helpful comments are the ones that boil down to, "this is how it is, discussion is a useless waste of time, take it or leave it". These sentiments come from a place of privilege and are almost always used to prop up the status quo so that the people that currently benefit the most can continue to do so.

The entire point of long-post forums like these is to have discussions. I don't see why people think that the best answer to a nuanced discussion is, "it isn't gonna change, why are you talking about it anyway?".

I would definitely agree with you, except the adcoms here are completely unreceptive to our comments and their rationalizes seem like weak excuses to us applicants. I'm sure they would say the same thing in different words too lol. It seems likely no one is changing anyone's mind here.

 

[Damson]

Would a "your application is still being considered" or "your application is on hold until further notice" make you guys feel any better?

Why would you want a swift and early rejection notice, which would bar the schools from offering you an interview later on?

I just gave an anecdotal account that one school didn't give me an interview until 2 months pre-matriculation, which turned into an acceptance.

 

[deleted1017120]

Would a "your application is still being considered" or "your application is on hold until further notice" make you guys feel any better?

Why would you want a swift and early rejection notice, which would bar the schools from offering you an interview later on?

I just gave an anecdotal account that one school didn't give me an interview until 2 months pre-matriculation, which turned into an acceptance.

I don't think the issue is if they are genuinely waiting to consider us later.

I think the issue is that it is pretty clear that many schools know that they are going to reject a given applicant much earlier than they actually notify them, or they just don't notify them at all.

 

[DoctorFate]

There are two separate issues going on in this thread
1) The inability of the system to treat applicants with timely notifications and decisions on their applications that’s reducing your stress and anxiety.
2) The setting of appropriate applicant expectations within the reality of the current system.

As to the first, the individual members of the Adcom have very little influence in changing the structure of the system to give applicants early and timely notifications on their applications. As I have said numerous times throughout This forum, Mission of a medical schoo is to produce doctors for further training; applicants are merely the raw material in this production system. This is a reality should it be? Not for me to judge I just try to explain the reality.

As to the second, as an advisor my job is to help applicants make it through this process. And as I have said from the very start of every cycle applicants need to adjust expectations to the point that everyone should assume they will be rejected.

And as for the comment concerning privilege of expectations I find it quite astounding. Everybody in this process starts without being accepted to medical school. Most people who complete this process will not be accepted to medical school. you are in the same exact place when you started, you have lost nothing. You can only go up to being an excepted student. Why anyone would set their expectations on a matter of “hope” for anything for that matter he’s not living in the reality of the world. You do not plan on hopes you did not set your lives on expectations that the data Show your are unlikely to receive As the majority of applicants will not geta seat. So please stop using the idea of “I hope to get into medical school” as a way to plan your life. Until you have an actual acceptance in your hand all of this is theoretical at best.

For those of you who think I’m being harsh this is precisely the entire philosophy of Zen in a nutshell

So just wondering. Let's say your GPA is a 3.8+ and your MCAT is 517+. Now you have an 88% chance of being accepted to medical school. As such, should everyone in that position assume they'll be accepted since that is now the much more likely outcome?

 

[Goro]

I would definitely agree with you, except the adcoms here are completely unreceptive to our comments and their rationalizes seem like weak excuses to us applicants. I'm sure they would say the same thing in different words too lol. It seems likely no one is changing anyone's mind here.

Well, we're just reporting the news, not making it.

Perhaps when you get to be a med school Dean, you can change the policies of your school, and then advocate with LCME to institute an early Reject reporting policy.

SDNers are also advised to remember that entering the medical field is a decade-long exercise in delayed gratification.

 

[LizzyM]

So just wondering. Let's say your GPA is a 3.8+ and your MCAT is 517+. Now you have an 88% chance of being accepted to medical school. As such, should everyone in that position assume they'll be accepted since that is now the much more likely outcome?

You buy some raffle tickets to win an ice cream maker. There aren't that many tickets sold other than the ones you bought... in fact, you hold 9 of the 10 tickets. Do you buy 7 quarts of heavy cream on the way to the drawing?

 

[KnightDoc]

Just my two cents as a nobody - this thread is kind of comical to me because it’s a pointless argument between two groups with completely opposite interests. Applicant wants to get in, medical school admissions is the gatekeeper.

I agree with KnightDoc that it’s not fair to leave applicants without an explanation, especially after they’ve paid for this service. I also agree with Gonnif that it’s a seller’s market, that they can get away with whatever they want, and that complaining is like banging your head against a wall. However, I don’t think this morally justifies the practice at all.

So, what exactly does one do? Well, complaining on SDN isn’t going to do anything. What they’re doing is legal, and changing the law would require sustained effort. The app cycle is inherently ephemeral. After you get into med school, you don’t give a **** anymore about the minor inconvenience that you didn’t hear back from some of your schools. The only other solution I can think of is to have all applicants go “on strike” for a cycle, and good luck organizing that.

So yeah, it’s unfair, but at the same time it’s more a minor inconvenience than it is an egregious human rights violation. And honestly it’s a privilege enough to be able-minded, educated and in the position of applying to medical school. There are worse things going on in this world that we could focus our energy toward than a minor inconvenience in the admissions process toward one of the most desirable careers.

Everything you said is absolutely correct. My posts are not about changing any laws. They are about trying to pressure some schools, through whoever is connected to them who either post or lurk on SDN, to practice a little of what they preach and treat applicants with the dignity and respect they treat their colleagues, students, patients, etc., instead of relying on a supply/demand imbalance for med school admissions to just do whatever the hell they want.

 

[deleted1017120]

There are two separate issues going on in this thread
1) The inability of the system to treat applicants with timely notifications and decisions on their applications that’s reducing your stress and anxiety.
2) The setting of appropriate applicant expectations within the reality of the current system.

As to the first, the individual members of the Adcom have very little influence in changing the structure of the system to give applicants early and timely notifications on their applications. As I have said numerous times throughout This forum, Mission of a medical schoo is to produce doctors for further training; applicants are merely the raw material in this production system. This is a reality should it be? Not for me to judge I just try to explain the reality.

As to the second, as an advisor my job is to help applicants make it through this process. And as I have said from the very start of every cycle applicants need to adjust expectations to the point that everyone should assume they will be rejected.

And as for the comment concerning privilege of expectations I find it quite astounding. Everybody in this process starts without being accepted to medical school. Most people who complete this process will not be accepted to medical school. you are in the same exact place when you started, you have lost nothing. You can only go up to being an excepted student. Why anyone would set their expectations on a matter of “hope” for anything for that matter he’s not living in the reality of the world. You do not plan on hopes you did not set your lives on expectations that the data Show your are unlikely to receive As the majority of applicants will not geta seat. So please stop using the idea of “I hope to get into medical school” as a way to plan your life. Until you have an actual acceptance in your hand all of this is theoretical at best.

For those of you who think I’m being harsh this is precisely the entire philosophy of Zen in a nutshell

This is an egregious misunderstanding of what it means to be an applicant.

The financial costs to applying alone mean that just by virtue of applying, you end up worse off than you were before you did. This is only (theoretically) alleviated if you get an acceptance. Even though the majority of the pre-med and medical communities are extremely well-off, the cost is still absurd even for them; applicants are encouraged to apply to around 15+ schools, which results in thousands of dollars of fees.

Not only this, but the opportunity cost to applying is incredible steep as well. Not only are applicants unable to commit to many serious opportunities (as described above), but when advising applicants, people always say that they should be working on their application during the season as if they are going to be rejected. This always includes things like, "take classes to improve your GPA", "study for/retake the MCAT", "volunteer more", "get more research experience", "get more experience working in the medical field". All of these either 1) directly cost a lot of money, 2) take time away from making money or committing to any kind of serious career or academic advancement, or 3) keep an applicant stuck in a job/other position that isn't fruitful as a meaningful long-term option should medical school fail as an option.

The entire process of applying to medical school asks applicants to sink an incredible amount of money and time into the process that gets you basically nothing if you fail to get into medical school. It's a massive risk for an all-or-nothing reward. That can hardly be construed as "losing nothing" if you get rejected.

 

[DoctorFate]

This is an egregious misunderstanding of what it means to be an applicant.

The financial costs to applying alone mean that just by virtue of applying, you end up worse off than you were before you did. This is only (theoretically) alleviated if you get an acceptance. Even though the majority of the pre-med and medical communities are extremely well-off, the cost is still absurd even for them; applicants are encouraged to apply to around 15+ schools, which results in thousands of dollars of fees.

Not only this, but the opportunity cost to applying is incredible steep as well. Not only are applicants unable to commit to many serious opportunities (as described above), but when advising applicants, people always say that they should be working on their application during the season as if they are going to be rejected. This always includes things like, "take classes to improve your GPA", "study for/retake the MCAT", "volunteer more", "get more research experience", "get more experience working in the medical field". All of these either 1) directly cost a lot of money, 2) take time away from making money or committing to any kind of serious career or academic advancement, or 3) keep an applicant stuck in a job/other position that isn't fruitful as a meaningful long-term option should medical school fail as an option.

The entire process of applying to medical school asks applicants to sink an incredible amount of money and time into the process that gets you basically nothing if you fail to get into medical school. It's a massive risk for an all-or-nothing reward. That can hardly be construed as "losing nothing" if you get rejected.

Exactly my thoughts. Many adcom responses here seem rather cavalier about the whole ordeal, as if it doesn't cost several thousand dollars and hundreds of hours of time just to apply (not even including the tens of thousands of dollars and hours one spends as a pre-med). Makes it rather hard to take up the attitude "dw, just chill and quit being neurotic".

 

[KnightDoc]

Would a "your application is still being considered" or "your application is on hold until further notice" make you guys feel any better?

Why would you want a swift and early rejection notice, which would bar the schools from offering you an interview later on?

I just gave an anecdotal account that one school didn't give me an interview until 2 months pre-matriculation, which turned into an acceptance.

TBH, the fact that one school did such a bad job deciding how many and who to invite in for interviews that it had to reopen its process mere weeks before matriculation is not a reason to keep thousands of applicants in the dark at all schools across the country once decisions have been made.

The solution to that issue is to replace the dean of admissions, and for the school to be more realistic with respect to who receives IIs, so that it doesn't burn through its entire WL before it has seated a class.

 

[KnightDoc]

And as for the comment concerning privilege of expectations I find it quite astounding. Everybody in this process starts without being accepted to medical school. Most people who complete this process will not be accepted to medical school. you are in the same exact place when you started, you have lost nothing. You can only go up to being an excepted student. Why anyone would set their expectations on a matter of “hope” for anything for that matter he’s not living in the reality of the world. You do not plan on hopes you did not set your lives on expectations that the data Show your are unlikely to receive As the majority of applicants will not geta seat. So please stop using the idea of “I hope to get into medical school” as a way to plan your life. Until you have an actual acceptance in your hand all of this is theoretical at best.

For those of you who think I’m being harsh this is precisely the entire philosophy of Zen in a nutshell

Not true -- those people not receiving FAP have literally lost thousands of dollars, as well as scores or hundreds of hours of time, depending on how many schools they applied to. This is before taking stress into account.

It's not a theoretical exercise. A sizable minority ARE accepted, so it's not crazy to begin planning to attend medical school up to a year before you actually matriculate. That said, a ton of people who will not be matriculating within the next year don't actually know that until a few weeks before school starts. And this is while schools have in many cases made that determination many months before.

There is no reason for it, other than schools can do whatever they want. Being Zen about being treated like garbage is not a great way to go through life. Maybe the schools should consider stopping treating candidates to become their raw ingredient so poorly?

 

[KnightDoc]

You buy some raffle tickets to win an ice cream maker. There aren't that many tickets sold other than the ones you bought... in fact, you hold 9 of the 10 tickets. Do you buy 7 quarts of heavy cream on the way to the drawing?

Depends on how badly you are craving ice cream, doesn't it? After all, 9 times out of 10, doing so will mean you don't have to wait until you get home! Plus, you get to share!! Plus, even the 10th time, you can still do whatever one does with 7 quarts of heavy cream.

 

[DoctorFate]

Not true -- those people not receiving FAP have literally lost thousands of dollars, as well as scores or hundreds of hours of time, depending on how many schools they applied to. This is before taking stress into account.

It's not a theoretical exercise. A sizable minority ARE accepted, so it's not crazy to begin planning to attend medical school up to a year before you actually matriculate. That said, a ton of people who will not be matriculating within the next year don't actually know that until a few weeks before school starts. And this is while schools have in many cases made that determination many months before.

There is no reason for it, other than schools can do whatever they want. Being Zen about being treated like garbage is not a great way to go through life. Maybe the schools should consider stopping treating candidates to become their raw ingredient so poorly?

Schools treat candidates that they actually plan on accepting quite well. The ones they don't accept don't matter to them. So they treat the other applicants like the trash they plan tossing their apps into haha.

 

[LizzyM]

Does the NCAA still use the tag line, "Most of our athletes are going pro in something other than sports." ? I imagine that students who play D-1 college football or basketball are hoping to be drafted into the pros. If they are not, they have the option of working on their speed and skills, maybe taking a position in a league outside of the US, or giving up on the dream.

 

[Goro]

We fully get that one has worked hard and is paying a large amount of money to apply to med school. We get that.

But until you show me the gun that was put to your head that forced you to be a pre-med AND apply to med school, you don't get any sympathy from me. You CHOSE this pathway.

 

[HockeyAndBanjos73]

So, all of this to say, it's too early for me to be sweating it if I haven't heard anything, right? Lol.

 

[LindaAccepted]

So, all of this to say, it's too early for me to be sweating it if I haven't heard anything, right? Lol.

It's too early for you to be sweating, but never too early for you to be planning...

 

[deleted1017120]

The thousands of dollars spent on application fees are nearly trivial to the price of medical school that you’re applying for. If you are already understanding that you were going to be having probably an excess of $250,000 of loans or more Pale in comparison to the $5000 or less she will spend in total with interview costs. If you do not see it that way then you were looking at this process incorrectly. I stand by my statement this is all theoretical until you have an acceptance in hand.

I will add one other thing one of my favorite quotes “you can have anything you want you can’t have everything you want.” For those who say they took A fee to several years of their lives To prepare for medical school instead of something else that’s their choice. That’s the opportunity cost. And again no one is forcing anyone to apply to medical school.

Medical school tuition is readily covered by guaranteed public loans, not to mention any other financial aid or scholarships.

Application fees are not. Those have to come out of one's own pocket. Not only this, but debt to pay for medical school is a much more reliable investment than the money spent just to be considered for medical school entrance.

 

[KnightDoc]

The thousands of dollars spent on application fees are nearly trivial to the price of medical school that you’re applying for. If you are already understanding that you were going to be having probably an excess of $250,000 of loans or more Pale in comparison to the $5000 or less she will spend in total with interview costs. If you do not see it that way then you were looking at this process incorrectly. I stand by my statement this is all theoretical until you have an acceptance in hand.

I will add one other thing one of my favorite quotes “you can have anything you want you can’t have everything you want.” For those who say they took A fee to several years of their lives To prepare for medical school instead of something else that’s their choice. That’s the opportunity cost. And again no one is forcing anyone to apply to medical school.

You are, of course, correct, and this is why we all subject ourselves to the process. The fact remains, however, that people's lives are in limbo during the application year.

It makes no sense to plan to not be in med school the following year, when around 40% of us will, in fact, be matriculating. That leaves 60+% who hope, dream, whatever, and will be bitterly disappointed. Some are realistic about their prospects, many are not. Stringing some along is unavoidable, as WLs are inevitably overpopulated, and classes aren't finalized until shortly before (or after) school begins.

That leaves a huge chunk of the 60+% whose fate is sealed anytime from late summer to early winter of the application year, and who do not receive the courtesy of a prompt communication of that fact, for no discernible reason. The process is not cost-free to them.

Things change through agitation. Working conditions in sweat shops (or Amazon warehouses ), or even residencies. Everything doesn't always have to be as it was because of the sellers' market. Availability of MARs and NARs. Maybe someone should look into federal legislation regarding the time med schools have to communicate admissions decisions (or even just negative ones) once made? I'm sure the schools would love that, and I'm equally sure they'd find a way to address the concern if it ever found its way onto Chuck Schumer's or Nancy Pelosi's radar.

Not telling people where they stand is wrong. Why do you insist on defending it, just because we want to be doctors and lack the market power to force change on our own? We are supposed to demonstrate ethics, empathy, etc. though ECs, MMIs, etc. while the schools that train us for entry into the profession are under no obligation to act in any way other than their selfish self interest? Nothing but the absolute height of hypocrisy.

 

[deleted1084643]

You are, of course, correct, and this is why we all subject ourselves to the process. The fact remains, however, that people's lives are in limbo during the application year.

It makes no sense to plan to not be in med school the following year, when around 40% of us will, in fact, be matriculating. That leaves 60+% who hope, dream, whatever, and will be bitterly disappointed. Some are realistic about their prospects, many are not. Stringing some along is unavoidable, as WLs are inevitably overpopulated, and classes aren't finalized until shortly before (or after) school begins.

That leaves a huge chunk of the 60+% whose fate is sealed anytime from late summer to early winter of the application year, and who do not receive the courtesy of a prompt communication of that fact, for no discernible reason. The process is not cost-free to them.

Things change through agitation. Working conditions in sweat shops (or Amazon warehouses ), or even residencies. Everything doesn't always have to be as it was because of the sellers' market. Availability of MARs and NARs. Maybe someone should look into federal legislation regarding the time med schools have to communicate admissions decisions (or even just negative ones) once made? I'm sure the schools would love that, and I'm equally sure they'd find a way to address the concern if it ever found its way onto Chuck Schumer's or Nancy Pelosi's radar.

Not telling people where they stand is wrong. Why do you insist on defending it, just because we want to be doctors and lack the market power to force change on our own? We are supposed to demonstrate ethics, empathy, etc. though ECs, MMIs, etc. while the schools that train us for entry into the profession are under no obligation to act in any way other than their selfish self interest? Nothing but the absolute height of hypocrisy.

This comment screams “I need a gap year or three to get some perspective.”

 

[LadyDustyBlue]

Just my two cents as a nobody - this thread is kind of comical to me because it’s a pointless argument between two groups with completely opposite interests. Applicant wants to get in, medical school admissions is the gatekeeper.

I agree with KnightDoc that it’s not fair to leave applicants without an explanation, especially after they’ve paid for this service. I also agree with Gonnif that it’s a seller’s market, that they can get away with whatever they want, and that complaining is like banging your head against a wall. However, I don’t think this morally justifies the practice at all.

So, what exactly does one do? Well, complaining on SDN isn’t going to do anything. What they’re doing is legal, and changing the law would require sustained effort. The app cycle is inherently ephemeral. After you get into med school, you don’t give a **** anymore about the minor inconvenience that you didn’t hear back from some of your schools. The only other solution I can think of is to have all applicants go “on strike” for a cycle, and good luck organizing that.

So yeah, it’s unfair, but at the same time it’s more a minor inconvenience than it is an egregious human rights violation. And honestly it’s a privilege enough to be able-minded, educated and in the position of applying to medical school. There are worse things going on in this world that we could focus our energy toward than a minor inconvenience in the admissions process toward one of the most desirable careers.

^ I agree.

Applying to these medical schools and agreeing to pay a fee to allocate time to consider whether you’re worth their time in training you isn’t actually that bad. And they’re within their right after garnering a reputation and providing excellent training to take whatever time it takes to figure out who they want to mold/shape into their kind of standard of excellent medical education. We all certainly took a good amount of time sizing up which medical school we decided to talk to & on whatever amount of hubris took our chances (for the record, I’m still pre-med but this is my mentality).

For example, an exceptional professional violinist who charges $$$ per 30 minutes for a trial lesson doesn’t automatically have to agree to train you well enough to be Juilliard material or whatever you want to be good enough for (a band? To be a solo string player who gigs? A teacher? A community orchestra violinist?). They can reject or not call you back b/c of whatever reason.

Besides, plenty of people spend a lot of money on different things they think is valuable or will give them a leg up. You could spend hundreds of thousands of $ on recording equipment and start a band and get famous or produce music that way! Maybe you end up training yourself — forget the mentor or classical music or w/e — and maybe you’d get the same or better results!

Your investments have risks and being a world-renowned/certified badass in music or whatever medical specialty you get into, unfortunately, takes time & takes $$ to show you want to be a part of a system or the vision you want to be a part of.

I think what few authorities/adcoms in this matter are saying is that the process is more complex than simply saying “no”in a few weeks/days. People are complicated and someone could potentially drop out of “XYZ-amazing school of your dreams” & give you a shot. Isn’t that why you paid a fee, to give to whatever full-extent of time to still be considered?

It’s also moot to be like, “I wish they’d already just reject me or let me know”. I can see why adcoms want people to continue to make use of their time like they’re more than just a med school applicant — YOU ARE.

If you don’t get in now/later, there’s a reason (maybe more) for that, but you should always be prepared for a life beyond medicine. You’ll have to figure that out even if you managed to become a medical doctor.

So just wondering. Let's say your GPA is a 3.8+ and your MCAT is 517+. Now you have an 88% chance of being accepted to medical school. As such, should everyone in that position assume they'll be accepted since that is now the much more likely outcome?

This is one of those cases where you may literally paralyze yourself with anxiety due to overanalyzing, thinking that data alone will make up for the fact that sometimes, a so-called “lesser applicant with lower stats” sometimes gets into prestigious schools like “X-Great School”. Be the best applicant you can be, and know that even if you have an amazing application, everyone else probably does. And that’s the scary part you can’t hide behind or logic. Did that stop you from applying? Nope.

And speaking as a fellow pre-med & on a different note, I mean, I think being told to “have a plan B” in case you don’t get in is understandable. Everyday, people apply to medical school knowing the odds/costs. You should always keep your options open, to whatever degree you see fit, but know that you’re not the only one hoping for the best. Sometimes you have you expect the worst & be prepared for that too.

For those of you who don’t know yet whether it’s an A, R, or a WL, I hope that you still find things to do than watch this thread, or feed off each others’ neuroses. There’s got to be a better way to cope.

 

[LizzyM]

And again no one is forcing anyone to apply to medical school.

"Have you met my Tiger Mom?"