NY Methodist ranking their children to match

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mpdoc2

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I heard the chairman of NY Methodist radiation oncology ranked his son to match. I also heard that the daughter of another attending is a resident there. If this is the case the ACGME and the DIO at NY Methodist should be notified of this funny business.
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Yeah, his son matched there.

Something is rotten in the state of Denmark.
 
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Gfunk6 said:
Obviously he was the most qualified candidate . . .
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To me it's ridiculous if they get away with this. Obviously the program will have the reputation of residents who could only get in to the field because of nepotism.
 
You should definitely personally report this. Let us know how it turns out.
 
This is a tempest in a tea-pot. Maybe he is qualified. Maybe he isn't.
 
mpdoc2 said:
Odds are he wasn't qualified. The goal is to stop nepotism in medicine which is getting out of hand in Medicine and especially Radonc.
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Given that greater than 50% of USMGs match I'm presuming he's qualified. Not sure exactly how you'd define that anyway, but I'd say, he passed Step I and II and will graduate medical school. Is someone who is the offspring of a chair inherently unqualified?
 
I agree that at best this is a bit sketchy and a red flag for future medical students looking into this and program and employers who may hire their graduates but as somebody mentioned above as long as he passed usmle step 1 and graduates from medical school how can you prove that he isn't qualified?

Of course at least at this moment matching into radiation oncology is ultra competitive but just because that may be the case it doesn't mean that an average medical student isn't educated, intelligent, enough or otherwise doesn't have what it takes to become a competent radiation oncologist. In an ideal world the best and brightest physicians would practice as a family physician in rural America and provide much needed and broad services from peds, to ob/gyn, to minor surgical procedures to thousands of underserved patients and the below average physician would go into dermatology but we all know the opposite happens more frequently.

Ranking is subjective and I'm sure every program ranked at least some students with lower scores, less publications, etc higher than others because they were a "better fit." What better fit than a 50% DNA match with the chair of the department (now I'm just being ridiculous I know).
 
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Ray D. Ayshun said:
Given that greater than 50% of USMGs match I'm presuming he's qualified. Not sure exactly how you'd define that anyway, but I'd say, he passed Step I and II and will graduate medical school. Is someone who is the offspring of a chair inherently unqualified?
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I think it's fairly obvious when I say "qualified" I mean their most qualified candidate.By qualified I certainly don't mean that they meet the minimum requirements to be a physician. It does a big dis-service to the community to rank students who are better with a lower rank to make sure your son can be at that program. Also whats the point of interviewing other people if your just going to rank your son/daughter to match. And unfortunately because this can't be proven it's not an NRMP violation.
 
mpdoc2 said:
It does a big dis-service to the community to rank students who are better with a lower rank to make sure your son can be at that program.
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Are you confident that this is what happened here? How can you know who is "better"? Each institution gets to decide what its priorities are.
 
Lamount said:
Are you confident that this is what happened here? How can you know who is "better"? Each institution gets to decide what its priorities are.
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I believe the post by WVXRT above expresses my frustration more eloquently than I can. Yes, I'm fairly confident that this is what happened. Being the chairman's kid should not be part of your "priorities". If I was a current or former resident at NY Methodist I would be pretty pissed about this.
 
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If this were Harvard I might feel a little bit different. However, this is New York Methodist we are talking about. Nothing against them as a program, but they don't always match the top tier of applicants. It is entirely believable that this kid was in the top tier and matched them very high because he wanted to train with his dad. There would be nothing wrong with that scenario.

Admittedly, it is also very plausible that he was not a good applicant and his father matched them higher than he should. That would be quite unacceptable.

Without definitive evidence either way I'm not sure what this call to action is about.
 
It is really interesting to read the closed "nepotism in rad onc" thread knowing the conclusion to all of this. Has anyone changed their mind after seeing that the chairman's matched?
 
Ray D. Ayshun said:
If he were "qualified," should he be precluded from matching at Methodist because it would give the wrong impression?
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Why? Because our field is competitive? I'm honestly surprised how upset people are without actually knowing the facts. None of us got where we are now without some unfair help, even if we don't appreciate or realize it.
 
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ramsesthenice said:
Why? Because our field is competitive? I'm honestly surprised how upset people are without actually knowing the facts. None of us got where we are now without some unfair help, even if we don't appreciate or realize it.
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some much more than others...
 
mpdoc2 said:
some much more than others...
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Believe me I know that. My dad is a farmer, not a doctor. I have my own loans for undergrad and med school. There were no legacy points for me. No MCAT review courses. No DIT to prepare for step 1.

I'm not going to pretend though, I still didn't get here completely on my own. Further, I would have used any of those above advantages if I could.

I realize taking review courses and being able to study (and party) because someone didn't have a job while they were a student because mom and dad paid for everything is not quite the same as having a dad for a PD. But let's not deny we have all gotten opportunities others didnt and used them.
 
ramsesthenice said:
Believe me I know that. My dad is a farmer, not a doctor. I have my own loans for undergrad and med school. There were no legacy points for me. No MCAT review courses. No DIT to prepare for step 1.

I'm not going to pretend though, I still didn't get here completely on my own. Further, I would have used any of those above advantages if I could.

I realize taking review courses and being able to study (and party) because someone didn't have a job while they were a student because mom and dad paid for everything is not quite the same as having a dad for a PD. But let's not deny we have all gotten opportunities others didnt and used them.
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I'm glad you already said that paying for a review course is slightly different than having daddy chairman accept you. This sort of stuff happens in 3rd world countries all the time, where daddy gets their kids into medschool and residency. I just hope it won't be so blatantly obvious here.
 
It's fine to care a little, but I always ask 'what's up, what's under the surface' when someone cares TOO MUCH about anything, including this.

There's very little that is strictly objective in any of this process, and this really isn't that different. Harvard filled like 6 out of 7 spots this year with their own home students.

Different people are lucky enough to get easy projects on a random away and get a first author in before ERAS for very little work where others spend months on a project and have nothing to show for it. Even the 'objective' markers, or one would think, are not really black and white merit issues.
 
I'd be more annoyed if the chairman used connections to get his son in a program where I would actually want to train. As Ramsesthenice stated, nobody really knows what the situation is, but it is apparent that he didn't steal a spot at a top program.
 
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It seems to me that some people on this forum have a bit too much time on their hands mixed with some deep insecurities. As an applicant who matched into radiation oncology this year, it is despicable to me that you would take the time to directly target a future colleague who you know absolutely nothing about. It is immature and speaks to your lack of professionalism and judgement. You may feel bold and proud that you are bringing this "issue" to light but in reality you are hiding behind a screen name and have the pleasure of protecting your identity while you blatantly try to defame another physician's name. It is childish and you should be ashamed of yourself for allowing your emotions to get the best of you. The proper way to have dealt with this is privately if you felt so strongly about it. Instead you made a mockery of yourself by trying so frantically to get attention on a public online forum and frankly its pathetic.
 
live4today said:
It seems to me that some people on this forum have a bit too much time on their hands mixed with some deep insecurities. As an applicant who matched into radiation oncology this year, it is despicable to me that you would take the time to directly target a future colleague who you know absolutely nothing about. It is immature and speaks to your lack of professionalism and judgement. You may feel bold and proud that you are bringing this "issue" to light but in reality you are hiding behind a screen name and have the pleasure of protecting your identity while you blatantly try to defame another physician's name. It is childish and you should be ashamed of yourself for allowing your emotions to get the best of you. The proper way to have dealt with this is privately if you felt so strongly about it. Instead you made a mockery of yourself by trying so frantically to get attention on a public online forum and frankly its pathetic.
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Actually I made this thread because of the frustration of another user who PM'd me regarding this.
 
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live4today said:
It seems to me that some people on this forum have a bit too much time on their hands mixed with some deep insecurities. As an applicant who matched into radiation oncology this year, it is despicable to me that you would take the time to directly target a future colleague who you know absolutely nothing about. It is immature and speaks to your lack of professionalism and judgement. You may feel bold and proud that you are bringing this "issue" to light but in reality you are hiding behind a screen name and have the pleasure of protecting your identity while you blatantly try to defame another physician's name. It is childish and you should be ashamed of yourself for allowing your emotions to get the best of you. The proper way to have dealt with this is privately if you felt so strongly about it. Instead you made a mockery of yourself by trying so frantically to get attention on a public online forum and frankly its pathetic.
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Ok. MPdoc and I clearly don't see eye to eye on this. But I don't think this thread was childish or pathetic. This is a safe place to vent frustration. These conversations can be productive.
 
I assume this is a small program. Was there only one spot this year?

I think everybody would agree that it would be absolutely unethical to invite a dozen or more students from all over the country knowing that they don't have the time or money to waste on an interview for a spot that doesn't exist...

If this were the case and it could somehow be proved (highly doubt it) that the spot was guaranteed beforehand then I'd report this myself!
 
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oldking said:
I assume this is a small program. Was there only one spot this year?

I think everybody would agree that it would be absolutely unethical to invite a dozen or more students from all over the country knowing that they don't have the time or money to waste on an interview for a spot that doesn't exist...

If this were the case and it could somehow be proved (highly doubt it) that the spot was guaranteed beforehand then I'd report this myself!
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Is there such thing as a guaranteed spot? I suspect it's common that a home program will rank their students to match in order to prevent them from falling, with the knowledge that the applicants may choose another program. Given the way the NRMP works, though, it's never truly guaranteed on any side as "guaranteed" doesn't exist until after the match process. Could NY Methodist have not entered the match, and then accepted this particular applicant during the SOAP process?
 
Ray D. Ayshun said:
Is there such thing as a guaranteed spot? I suspect it's common that a home program will rank their students to match in order to prevent them from falling, with the knowledge that the applicants may choose another program. Given the way the NRMP works, though, it's never truly guaranteed on any side as "guaranteed" doesn't exist until after the match process. Could NY Methodist have not entered the match, and then accepted this particular applicant during the SOAP process?
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SOAP is part of the match so you can't do one without the other. I believe that a program cannot opt out of the match. This can only be done on an institutional level (I.e. all programs). The SOAP programs for 2015 were listed in another thread.

As annoying as this situation may be to some, I'll reiterate that facts are lacking with respect to how the applicant and program were ranked. Even if there were a match violation (pre-arranged ranking) this will be hard to prove and pursuing punitive measures likely fruitless and pointless. Unfortunately favoritism and nepotism are part of life and you will encounter it your entire career in schooling, post graduate training, academics and PP. It would have been ideal to avoid this situation as another poster suggested, but perhaps this match was the best one for the program and applicant. As others pointed out the culture in this program is unique and clearly not for every applicant.
 
mpdoc2 said:
I heard the chairman of NY Methodist radiation oncology ranked his son to match. I also heard that the daughter of another attending is a resident there. If this is the case the ACGME and the DIO at NY Methodist should be notified of this funny business.
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--speaking as someone who knows him, and as his friend, I'm pretty appalled at the comments on this threat. First off, most of you are going into a field that requires understanding of people's life circumstances without judgement. You are all more of a poor reflection of radiation oncology than him or his father. His resume is actually quite impressive. Did research at sloan, volunteered overseas, and excelled academically and in his extra curriculars. He also interviewed at many of the same programs as any of you so excuse my vernacular but **** off. this is life. No one got him Into medical school, he took his own steps, and earned his spot. Just because his father was a hard working immigrant and earned a spot As a chairman doesn't make his son less deserving than any of you who probably have rich parents and were granted everything you wanted in life. Grow up, people have unfair advantages In every walk of life. I can speak for their family that they've done much good to the world, they dont need your approval or respect. As someone going into medical oncology I hope to never work with any of you.
 
hisfriend said:
--speaking as someone who knows him, and as his friend, I'm pretty appalled at the comments on this threat. First off, most of you are going into a field that requires understanding of people's life circumstances without judgement. You are all more of a poor reflection of radiation oncology than him or his father. His resume is actually quite impressive. Did research at sloan, volunteered overseas, and excelled academically and in his extra curriculars. He also interviewed at many of the same programs as any of you so excuse my vernacular but **** off. this is life. No one got him Into medical school, he took his own steps, and earned his spot. Just because his father was a hard working immigrant and earned a spot As a chairman doesn't make his son less deserving than any of you who probably have rich parents and were granted everything you wanted in life. Grow up, people have unfair advantages In every walk of life. I can speak for their family that they've done much good to the world, they dont need your approval or respect. As someone going into medical oncology I hope to never work with any of you.
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Ditto to the last part. If you had read a few more of the posts, I think you might've seen that the majority didn't agree with the OP.
 
I'm not sure of the details/series of events that led to this particular match at NY Methodist, but from my personal experience (working closely with the applicant in question both on away rotations as well as meeting on the interview trail), there is no doubt in my mind that he is highly qualified (and likely had the potential to match at many other programs), quite principled, and actually a very, very nice person. I truly enjoyed the time that I spent with him, and I look forward to having him as a colleague in the future.
 
beamseyeview said:
I'm not sure of the details/series of events that led to this particular match at NY Methodist, but from my personal experience (working closely with the applicant in question both on away rotations as well as meeting on the interview trail), there is no doubt in my mind that he is highly qualified (and likely had the potential to match at many other programs), quite principled, and actually a very, very nice person. I truly enjoyed the time that I spent with him, and I look forward to having him as a colleague in the future.
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If this is in fact the case I wish him the best of luck also. I hope future faculty take threads like this into account when accepting their own children. Their children would be better served going to a program where the conflicts of interest are not related to the bloodline.
 
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OK, not to add wood to the flame but the son has 2 publications with his dad, both in which his dad is lead author.
 
In medicine we are now required to declare financial conflicts of interests. For those of you who've ever had an article published or a poster accepted at ASTRO, you know what I'm talking about. For others, surely you must have seen a COI slide preceding virtually every speaker at national conferences. The presence of a conflict of interest DOES NOT AUTOMATICALLY IMPLY sinister or nefarious intentions. However, the audience should be aware of such conflicts so that they could make their own individual value judgments. For instance, if a speaker tells me that he has a paid position on a medical device company scientific board and then proceeds to tell me how said device is superior to everything else in the market, I will understandably give greater scrutinity to his data and conclusions.

In a similar way, this NY Methodist issue should have either been disclosed *OR* the chairman should have taken the high road and said that, "my son is qualified enough to get into Rad Onc on his own merits and doesn't need to live with the stamp of 'nepotism.'" Obviously neither was done. If I had ever seriously considered a Rad Onc position at NY Methodist during this cycle and I paid for my flight, accommodations, and expenses for an interview, I would be incensed with this result.

Furthermore, you have an apparently highly qualified candidate unnecessarily "stamped" with a label which is unfair given that he could have probably gotten in elsewhere.

It is illogical to state that "just because nepotism happens somewhere, it is permissible for it to happen everywhere." Similarly, the "rank" of the program is utterly irrelevant to this issue.
 
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Ray D. Ayshun said:
If he were "qualified," should he be precluded from matching at Methodist because it would give the wrong impression?
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No of course not. But speaking purely for myself, I would not have ranked a program where my father is the chairman.
 
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live4today said:
It seems to me that some people on this forum have a bit too much time on their hands mixed with some deep insecurities. As an applicant who matched into radiation oncology this year, it is despicable to me that you would take the time to directly target a future colleague who you know absolutely nothing about. It is immature and speaks to your lack of professionalism and judgement. You may feel bold and proud that you are bringing this "issue" to light but in reality you are hiding behind a screen name and have the pleasure of protecting your identity while you blatantly try to defame another physician's name. It is childish and you should be ashamed of yourself for allowing your emotions to get the best of you. The proper way to have dealt with this is privately if you felt so strongly about it. Instead you made a mockery of yourself by trying so frantically to get attention on a public online forum and frankly its pathetic.
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I think your response is unnecessarily harsh and also makes unfair assumptions about the OP. He is not 'targeting' a future colleague, nor do I see any defamation here. It seems he wants more light shed on the opaque process of residency matching. It is natural for these type of questions to be raised when a father matches his own son. I'm sure the chairman and son at NY Methodist can take the heat otherwise they wouldn't have put themselves into this situation. They did this knowingly. I just hope despite all the questions being raised, everyone keeps an open mind.
 
hisfriend said:
--speaking as someone who knows him, and as his friend, I'm pretty appalled at the comments on this threat. First off, most of you are going into a field that requires understanding of people's life circumstances without judgement. You are all more of a poor reflection of radiation oncology than him or his father. His resume is actually quite impressive. Did research at sloan, volunteered overseas, and excelled academically and in his extra curriculars. He also interviewed at many of the same programs as any of you so excuse my vernacular but **** off. this is life. No one got him Into medical school, he took his own steps, and earned his spot. Just because his father was a hard working immigrant and earned a spot As a chairman doesn't make his son less deserving than any of you who probably have rich parents and were granted everything you wanted in life. Grow up, people have unfair advantages In every walk of life. I can speak for their family that they've done much good to the world, they dont need your approval or respect. As someone going into medical oncology I hope to never work with any of you.
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Please. Your argument has nothing to do with the situation. My father was a hard working inmigrant too and i doubt most people on this forum are rich with everything granted to them in life. Just because the chairman is part of a good family who helped many other people doesn't make it okay, and even if the opposite is true, and the family was wealthy and privileged and took advantage of others, it doesn't make it worse. It is what it is. For most of us, we will never know the full details so I choose to give the program the benefit of the doubt and wish this applicant well. Don't judge us for raising eyebrows, it is an unusual scenario that they invited upon themselves.
 
Agree with the sentiment here. It was a mistake for the applicant and the chair to be colluding like this. It speaks to the character of both parties.

This is a wonderful article, a very worthwhile read: http://www.newsweek.com/certified-medical-controversy-320495. The older generation of physicians is self absorbed and care about one thing, the bottom line even when it conflicts with ethics and causes enormous stress on their peers. The chickens are coming home to roost, and older physicians that have driven medicine into the ground will be exposed. If someone went digging I suspect more would turn up at NY methodist. Our field is being threatened by people with the same ethics resulting in infighting and a lack of fair employment that will accelerate unless our generation can come up with ways to take control back. I dont know the solution, but the conversation must happen. Also, I heard it is up to $600/yr for ABR now; really?
 
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I think it is worth mentioning that it is impossible for a candidate, regardless of how qualified they are, to match at a program where a relative works without enduring speculation and sniping from forums such as this. I tend to agree with live4today, though I would certainly phrase my argument less aggressively. I applied to this field as a complete outsider... and it was hard. During the application season, I would have killed to have an "in" to a department just so that I wouldn't have been so anxious about not matching. As such, being honest with myself, I never begrudged those with connections because I would certainly have availed myself of any connections if I had the opportunity.

The world is the way it is. People do favors for friends and loved ones (which is probably wrong)... but people also choose known quantities over unknowns (which isn't wrong). While I guess it is to be expected that there would be questions whirling around a father ranking his son... I don't think that one should be proud to speculate that a candidate is unqualified SOLEY because they are related to a faculty member. Even if you have a specific reason to think that someone is unqualified, don't gossip. It is unbecoming.
 
I find this thread disturbing. Is this really where we want to evolve as an SDN community? Are we going to next start calling out individual physicians for what we perceive as incorrect treatment decisions?

Look, I really do understand why people are upset..I get it. But I also understand that NONE of us knows the whole story.

As a resident, I found myself constantly questioning the clinical decisions of my attendings or other referring physicians. I asked myself what I would do if I were them. That is a healthy and educational attitude for a resident.

Now as an attending and as a colleague, my attitude of questioning has changed somewhat. I tend to give others the benefit of the doubt. When a case is presented in tumor board, it is easy to have 20/20 vision or to look at a case in hindsight and know exactly what one should do. But when you are in the midst of uncertainty along a clinical course and making decisions along the way, well - things aren't as clear-cut sometimes. After you have walked that road as the actual decision-maker, I like to think that you look at your colleagues decisions in a different light.

It's fine to question..but to slander folks individually without knowing all of the information is I think unjust. The perceived harm that some of you have experienced on the interview trail is extremely frustrating and disappointing. We could debate favoritism on a lot of levels (geographical, pedigree, etc etc). I'm not excusing it..I'm simply saying that what makes one candidate more appealing in the eyes of a program is not usually boiled down to just one thing. It is the easy reaction to finger point after the match and play gotcha, but I would hope we can rise above that.
 
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