NYCOM vs SGU/Ross, Accepted --> Please advice

[IntelInside]

Ok so i have received acceptances from all 3 of these schools. And I was wondering if some people can tell me what their opinion is and why. A list of pro/cons would much appreciated. I also live in New York. Thank you

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[AdemTD]

If it really means that much to you to get the MD degree (which is not going to matter to your patients or colleagues), then go to the Caribbean and get the MD. But if you feel you can kill the USMLE, then go for it, otherwise getting into a competitive residency is going to be very hard being a graduate of Ross or SGU. Then again, if you don't want a highly competitive specialty, then by all means get your MD. I would personally go to the DO school, good luck to you!

 

[IntelInside]

I am leaning more towards Anesthesia or Surgery (hopefully Orthopaedic surgery) but even General Surgery. Anesthesia is probably my #1 though at this point in time, but it's subject to change. Any thoughts people?

 

[BabyKangaroo]

Whoa. Really? No-brainer.

 

[thethethe]

lol orthopedic surgery...

 

[Chocolate Bear]

My thought remains that I would go to school in the country where I wanted to practice. Want to be a U.S. doc? I'd stay in the U.S. Best of luck with the decision!

 

[AdemTD]

lol orthopedic surgery...

why is this funny to you?

 

[Semicolon]

Ok so i have received acceptances from all 3 of these schools. And I was wondering if some people can tell me what their opinion is and why. A list of pro/cons would much appreciated. I also live in New York. Thank you

I am leaning more towards Anesthesia or Surgery (hopefully Orthopaedic surgery) but even General Surgery. Anesthesia is probably my #1 though at this point in time, but it's subject to change. Any thoughts people?

My initial thought is that you're naive. I agree with BabyKangaroo; this is absolutely a no-brainer.

Especially if you want THOSE specialties...my friend, the Caribbean is NOT for you.

 

[JaggerPlate]

NYCOM. Hands down. Most of these discussions are about new DO schools vs SGU ... but established DO school vs SGU = DO. You should read up on some threads about increasing US MD and DO class sizes, and what it can mean for FMGs matching. If you want Gas or Ortho like you said ... DO no doubt. DOs match very well in ACGME Gas, and you can check out the AOA (DO only) ortho residencies at: http://opportunities.osteopathic.org

 

[countthestars]

Of course, being a NYCOM student, I say NYCOM. Reasons being: Location, Faculty, and 3rd and 4th year rotations.

I have a friend at SGU, a second year who's talking to me about their 3rd and 4th year placements. This said person really wants to rotate in NYC, but is pretty terrified they wont because many of these spots are going to the London based students. I'm not sure what the exact story is, but apparently, my friend honestly doesn't know where they are going to rotate at, which would totally bother me if I went there. I also hear of just how expensive it is to live in Grenda compile that with the cost of plane tickets back and forth, your looking at a pretty penny. For fin aid, you might not be able to get a US lender since you are going to a forgen school and such.

Now, with NYCOM, while I might not get my #1 most desired location for 3rd and 4th year, at least I know I will be able to stay in the NYC area. We have some amazing rotations AND many of the fellows at big name university centers stop by and give us lectures on their specialty. I love how we have integrated it all and many attending at NUMC, Downstate, ect come by and give us lectures.

With regard to ortho, at least as a DO you can apply to DO only residencies along with MD residencies. If you were to go to SGU, you wouldn't be able to apply to DO residencies. There is no system in place in case you wanted a fall back. During our Muscloskeletal system, we got taught by one of the big shots in the ortho field. He is a PD at a ortho residency in NYC. If you want, you can get early exposure to the filed. I remember him telling our class that he was having ortho residents over at our anatomy lab one day for them to practice surgery skills and that if any of us first years wanted to come by to let him know. I Don't think you will find the same thing at SGU.

And that is why I am going to say this is a no brainier. NYCOM hands down.

 

[dominate]

I don't understand why it is a hard choice to decide to go to a U.S. D.O. school over a Carribean M.D. school. I guess if you want to practice in the Carribean, then go to the school, but if not, why would you even consider going to the Carribean. I might be ignorant on the Carribean schools... but I would think you would only go if you could not get into a U.S. school. All of the M.D.'s that I know have been very supportive of my decision to be a D.O. and have given me congrats on my acceptance..... they have a less than respectable view on Carribean schools. I will not personally criticise the Carribean schools because I do not know enough about them, but what makes them good enough to factor into this decision?

 

[countthestars]

While I don't want this to turn into another DO vs Caribbean MD debate,dominate, I think its pretty simple why people go to Caribbean vs DO. Frankly they don't want a DO next to their name. If its THAT big of a deal to them, then I say good riddance, I would not want a colleague that is unhappy about two stinking letters next to their name .

 

[Semicolon]

While I don't want this to turn into another DO vs Caribbean MD debate,dominate, I think its pretty simple why people go to Caribbean vs DO. Frankly they don't want a DO next to their name. If its THAT big of a deal to them, then I say good riddance, I would not want a colleague that is unhappy about two stinking letters next to their name .

Agreed.

 

[IntelInside]

Thanks for all your opinions guys, I was def. leaning towards NYCOM but this has solidified it.

 

[time2go]

NYCOM= 8, Carribean= 0, should we debate some more?? My vote goes for NYCOM as well, its crazy people would choose carribean over DO just for the letters

 

[countthestars]

Well, posting this question in a Pre-osteo forum will have its inherited biases. Perhaps posting this same question on Valuemd (where alot of Caribbean schools discuss things) might give you more votes for SGU

 

[dominate]

Agreed.

Thanks to both of you for the responses. I guess if the M.D. name is that important, then go for it.

 

[JaggerPlate]

Well, posting this question in a Pre-osteo forum will have its inherited biases. Perhaps posting this same question on Valuemd (where alot of Caribbean schools discuss things) might give you more votes for SGU

I agree that if you really don't want the DO, get the MD where you can. However, ValueMD is known for being very Caribbean biased. Unjustifiably so. I think this forum has a clear bias - posting in pre-DO - but I think people are fair and give valid reasons for their conclusions. Also, posting this in pre allo, despite a flame war, gets the same response. Also, ask residents and Caribbean students in clinicals/applying ... they will say the same thing.

 

[chocolaterie]

I would choose a US DO over any Carib school. People who are attached to a pair of initials have issues.
The doc I was shadowing at the mayo hospital has a fav anesthesiologist who is a DO. So they are making great progress out there.

Congrats on the acceptance!!

 

[phospho]

OP, did you hear about the crappy match this year? It's only getting worse for those FMGs/IMGs. There's a thread in allo discussing it, but this is a no brainer: go DO...

 

[bioman2006]

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[nlax30]

I agree. NYCOM. I just don't see the point in leaving the country only to come back.

Go check out some of the recent DO match threads if you're still curious.

 

[Just Joshin]

Anyone who would even ask this question hasn't been reading SDN the past few weeks. Did you guys even LOOK at the allo match results? Only 46% of Carribean students matched into residency. That means more than half were left without a residency. I'm sure some managed the scramble, but even that was brutal this year. It'll just get worse over the next few years.

I don't know why anyone would even entertain going offshore for med school these days. Even posters on the SGU thread on the Carribean forum say that if you have the choice, go DO.

 

[Hokie06]

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[DiverDoc]

Iv shadowed DOs and MDs along side each other in an extremely rural small town and in a huge metro area. Ive never seen/heard any discrepency by other physicians or patients. The ONLY people who see it as even mildly significant are pre-meds who dont know squat or people that used DO as a backup for statistical reasons and their too proud to admit that 'wow, this really IS medical school'.

As for your specific question....... D.O. I really have to say it?

look at a match list to calm your nerves

 

[time2go]

Anyone who would even ask this question hasn't been reading SDN the past few weeks. Did you guys even LOOK at the allo match results? Only 46% of Carribean students matched into residency. That means more than half were left without a residency. I'm sure some managed the scramble, but even that was brutal this year. It'll just get worse over the next few years.

I don't know why anyone would even entertain going offshore for med school these days. Even posters on the SGU thread on the Carribean forum say that if you have the choice, go DO.

what was the osteopathic % for the match into allo

 

[Chocolate Bear]

what was the osteopathic % for the match into allo

Whatever the % was, the number doesn't reflect the whole situation, given the AOA match, personal preferences (applying, taking USMLE, etc.). So take with salt.

 

[Taus]

Whatever the % was, the number doesn't reflect the whole situation, given the AOA match, personal preferences (applying, taking USMLE, etc.). So take with salt.

In addition to the previous points made, the % matched stat for DO's is also negatively scewed in one more major way:

It only looks at PGY-1 year matches, so people like myself who are doing an AOA internship followed by an AGCME advanced residency are counted in the "un-matched" category. This is significant b/c there are many DO's going into AGCME specialties such as PM&R (~100/yr) and Anesthesia where this comes into play.

 

[MossPoh]

While there is inherent bias in questioning pre-DOs over the two, I still feel DO is the better choice. You are looking at one major difference and that is the letters after your name when you are done. If you were to eradicate that and simply look at the educational experience and opportunities afforded to you then NYCOM is the all around winner. I looked into SGU and Ross. I know friends that went there and people that were successful there, but many of them would rather not do it again. Medical school is tough enough as is, let alone when you throw in distance, slightly to significantly lower standards of living, and the stigma of being a FMG. You can bend match data however you want, but pound for pound I still think the vast majority of DO matches will be better. The truth is, you can't look at the outliers or the ones that were superstars and expect to be one of them. There are always people that beat the odds. You have to look at the overall odds and where people end up across the board. Most of us aren't going to be the best. We will be somewhere in the middle. Which school affords the best chances for students in the middle of the pack?

 

[EastCoaster78]

In addition to the previous points made, the % matched stat for DO's is also negatively scewed in one more major way:

It only looks at PGY-1 year matches, so people like myself who are doing an AOA internship followed by an AGCME advanced residency are counted in the "un-matched" category. This is significant b/c there are many DO's going into AGCME specialties such as PM&R (~100/yr) and Anesthesia where this comes into play.

I was withdrawn after matching a dual accredited program in the Osteo match, and was also piled in with the "unmatched" status, sent a survey to fill out and what not. So I assume everyone withdrawn for matching AOA is counted as unmatched in the outcomes.

 

[Chocolate Bear]

I was withdrawn after matching a dual accredited program in the Osteo match, and was also piled in with the "unmatched" status, sent a survey to fill out and what not. So I assume everyone withdrawn for matching AOA is counted as unmatched in the outcomes.

Exactly. A lot of people don't know this, thus misinterpreting the data. *sigh*

 

[Just Joshin]

what was the osteopathic % for the match into allo

It was 64%, but it's higher than that because a lot of DO's matched into the second year of allo residency instead of first since for the first year, they chose to do an osteo internship. So those people aren't being counted in the 64%. Also, some of the osteo students who signed up for the match ended up matching in the osteo match which was in February and so they were automatically withdrawn from the allo match because of that. So we have no way of knowing how many of those students actually would have matched in allo had they not also signed up for the osteo match. All we know is that the number of osteo students who matched into allo residencies was higher than 64%.

 

[time2go]

In addition to the previous points made, the % matched stat for DO's is also negatively scewed in one more major way:

It only looks at PGY-1 year matches, so people like myself who are doing an AOA internship followed by an AGCME advanced residency are counted in the "un-matched" category. This is significant b/c there are many DO's going into AGCME specialties such as PM&R (~100/yr) and Anesthesia where this comes into play.

could you describe ehat the internship entails....do you have to do this before your residency......so if i wanted to do internal medicine i would have to do the internship and then do the 3 yrs of residency needed for internal medicine...how exactly does this work?

 

[Revilla]

could you describe ehat the internship entails....do you have to do this before your residency......so if i wanted to do internal medicine i would have to do the internship and then do the 3 yrs of residency needed for internal medicine...how exactly does this work?

Internship is basically your first year of residency. So for internal med, you'd do one year of internship and two more years of residency, for a total of three years.

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Taus]

could you describe ehat the internship entails....do you have to do this before your residency......so if i wanted to do internal medicine i would have to do the internship and then do the 3 yrs of residency needed for internal medicine...how exactly does this work?

No, it's only for the few fields that require a separate internship before starting the actual residency regardless of MD or DO. This includes PM&R, Derm, Anesthesia, Radiology, Optho, etc.

It's extremely rare for DO's to have to do an extra year before starting a 3 year IM, Peds, etc residency. It wasn't always this way, but you really don't need to worry about it these days.

 

[Taus]

Internship is basically your first year of residency. So for internal med, you'd do one year of internship and two more years of residency, for a total of three years.

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

You are correct, but there are exceptions such as in the fields I mentioned in the previous post

 

[ILikeFood]

In addition to the previous points made, the % matched stat for DO's is also negatively scewed in one more major way:

It only looks at PGY-1 year matches, so people like myself who are doing an AOA internship followed by an AGCME advanced residency are counted in the "un-matched" category. This is significant b/c there are many DO's going into AGCME specialties such as PM&R (~100/yr) and Anesthesia where this comes into play.

Huh. I didn't know you could do that. Is this a way to get out of the "extra" year in the big five?

 

[ILikeFood]

No, it's only for the few fields that require a separate internship before starting the actual residency regardless of MD or DO. This includes PM&R, Derm, Anesthesia, Radiology, Optho, etc.

It's extremely rare for DO's to have to do an extra year before starting a 3 year IM, Peds, etc residency. It wasn't always this way, but you really don't need to worry about it these days.

Oh nevermind, I just saw this post

 

[Eudjinn]

how is this even a question?

U.S. medical school vs. FMG ....

caribbean is a good "hail mary" at becoming a doc, but why would anyone want to gimp their future opportunities while having a better option?

 

[engineeredout]

You're crazy. NYCOM is a great school. I don't feel like searching the forum but a carrib student posted a thread not long ago saying DO >>>>>>>> Carribean.

 

[AngryBaby]

I was withdrawn after matching a dual accredited program in the Osteo match, and was also piled in with the "unmatched" status, sent a survey to fill out and what not. So I assume everyone withdrawn for matching AOA is counted as unmatched in the outcomes.

Exactly. A lot of people don't know this, thus misinterpreting the data. *sigh*

The NRMP's match data includes a separate designation for applicants that have withdrawn from the match. These grads are not included in the "unmatched" category.

http://www.nrmp.org/data/advancedatatables2009.pdf

Table 4

 

[rkaz]

The NRMP's match data includes a separate designation for applicants that have withdrawn from the match. These grads are not included in the "unmatched" category.

http://www.nrmp.org/data/advancedatatables2009.pdf

Table 4

That table is an excellent resource. So basically 93% of USMD graduates who enter the match did match, while 70% of DO graduates who went through the MD match also matched, compared to 50% of US citizens of international medical schools. Although it would still be useful to point out that some schools, like SGU, may have better match results compared to other international schools. It's really great to have some factual information like this, rather than just listening to people's biased hearsay. Thanks for posting this.

I hope the people who didn't match were able to scramble into something. Based on that table, the match results don't look so good for the graduates who applied one or more years out of school.

 

[bioman2006]

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[bioman2006]

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[bioman2006]

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[rkaz]

Regarding SGU and the other Carib schools, is true that they will exclude students from sitting for the boards if they don't have a certain GPA? Not just a passing average, I mean...Ross likes to boast their 99% USMLE pass rate for students with a 2.9 GPA or higher. Say if DO schools were to only allow students with >2.9 GPA to take the USMLE and COMLEX and then go apply for a residency...just how much higher would the match rate be in that case?

This is obviously conjecture and probably flawed, but I wonder if the Carib schools limit their residency applicants to the 80th percentile just to inflate their resulting match statistics. If DOs did the same thing, I would bet that their match rate would be much higher than 70%.

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

You may possibly have some sort of point here... I see what you are saying, that because international schools select who can take the USMLE, the students thus have higher scores and may do better than they would have in the match if everyone had not taken the USMLE.

However, on the other hand, one could also argue that there may be 'inflation' on the DO side of things as well. I don't know about all schools, but I know that the school I plan to matriculate into (AZCOM) screens people for the COMLEX (though I don't know if they have any say over the USMLE). Possibly the students who aren't ready for the COMLEX may also realize that they probably aren't interested in the USMLE as well. (I am guessing there are only a few DO schools that screen like this, I don't know.)

Another speculation is that there may also be 'inflation' (as you put it) in the DO NRMP match in the sense that students with lower stats may choose to only go through the DO match as opposed to the MD match. (I realize this is a very unfair assumption, though possibly some truth to it.) Thus the students who went into the MD match either were confident in their stats not to even have applied for the DO match... else their stats were really poor and they didn't match into any of their DO choices, and probably may not match into their MD residency choices either. Or a third option is that they had reasonable stats, only applied to very competitive DO residencies (and didn't match there), and then went through the MD match process for less competitive specialities.

Ok, all this is just making my head spin. Obviously there are several possibilities and (possibly erroneous) assumptions here, so I don't really know if we can make any conclusions out of this. If there is any sort of 'inflation' then it may go both ways.

 

[bioman2006]

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[EastCoaster78]

The NRMP's match data includes a separate designation for applicants that have withdrawn from the match. These grads are not included in the "unmatched" category.

http://www.nrmp.org/data/advancedatatables2009.pdf

Table 4

whoa now...i was withdrawn, however i still recieved a "did not match" e-mail, and recieved the "unmatched applicants" survey. i am pretty sure they count us as unmatched even if we are withdrawn for matching AOA or dually accredited programs.

you could look at those tables like this:
osteopathic:
matched 69.9%
withdrew 24.6%
no list 5.4%
total= 99.9%

or

matched 69.9%
unmatched 30.1%

but wait, the withdrew applicants and no list applicants make up the majority of that 30%. most of them either matched in the osteopathic match or prematched. the group of us DO's participating in the NRMP is self selective to begin with. ie. if a student didnt do well on boards ect. they wouldnt bother trying. they apply soley through the AOA match. so i wouldnt be suprised if we had >90% match total, if u didnt count the withdrawn and no list applicants.

i could be wrong, contact the NRMP and check it out...

 

[time2go]

after clicking on that link i realized that their are only about 30 derm residencies per year?!?!?! i would think we need more derm doctors around why arent there more positions for residency

 

[nlax30]

whoa now...i was withdrawn, however i still recieved a "did not match" e-mail, and recieved the "unmatched applicants" survey. i am pretty sure they count us as unmatched even if we are withdrawn for matching AOA or dually accredited programs.

you could look at those tables like this:
osteopathic:
matched 69.9%
withdrew 24.6%
no list 5.4%
total= 99.9%

or

matched 69.9%
unmatched 30.1%

but wait, the withdrew applicants and no list applicants make up the majority of that 30%. most of them either matched in the osteopathic match or prematched. the group of us DO's participating in the NRMP is self selective to begin with. ie. if a student didnt do well on boards ect. they wouldnt bother trying. they apply soley through the AOA match. so i wouldnt be suprised if we had >90% match total, if u didnt count the withdrawn and no list applicants.

i could be wrong, contact the NRMP and check it out...

I think looking at the actual numbers helps clear some of it up. Out of 2875 TOTAL DO students they have data on 2015 were considered "active" applicants and 706 withdrew. And then out of those 2015 active ones 607 were listed as unmatched. And the total number of unmatched there is less than the total of No Ranks and Withdrew so definitely looks like they separated it out somehow.

Guess it would be nice to see what their criteria were for including someone in the unmatched or withdrew categories, especially if it seems like they considered you "unmatched".