OMM used to shield sexual abuse

[CherryRedDracul]

So, is anybody else looking forward to practicing medicine in the "current year," where performing a necessary physical exam on the wrong #metoo female may land you in prison as a sex offender*, and not performing it to lose your house and your license?

Well, at least we get to help people!


*This is not in reference to the criminal case discussed in this thread but to something that could hypothetically happen in the current climate

There's this thing called "consent" that I was taught in medical school.

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[AORiverContra]

Dr. Larry Nassar was not a doctor

Look at what some in the media are saying...

 

[sab3156]

Dr. Larry Nassar was not a doctor

Look at what some in the media are saying...

This article is right about some stuff. AT Still was a nut job, and his ideas were nonsense and have no basis in scientific literature. Unfortunately, the DO schools revere this guy for no reason. I'm a first year DO student, and the "Osteopathic Skills" class is like a cult gathering. We had a lecture on the history of osteopathic medicine, and had to memorize lots of "important" dates in AT Still's life and "important" dates and figures in osteopathic medicine. Guess what? These dates will be tested on the COMLEX. So yeah, sometimes I feel like I'm living in a nightmare.

 

[prexies]

This article is right about some stuff. AT Still was a nut job, and his ideas were nonsense and have no basis in scientific literature. Unfortunately, the DO schools revere this guy for no reason. I'm a first year DO student, and the "Osteopathic Skills" class is like a cult gathering. We had a lecture on the history of osteopathic medicine, and had to memorize lots of "important" dates in AT Still's life and "important" dates and figures in osteopathic medicine. Guess what? These dates will be tested on the COMLEX. So yeah, sometimes I feel like I'm living in a nightmare.

Just an FYI, not all DO schools make their students learn all those dates, and they definitely were not tested on Level 1 or Level 2. That being said, those tests are still garbage.

Sent from my SM-G935V using SDN mobile

 

[sab3156]

Just an FYI, not all DO schools make their students learn all those dates, and they definitely were not tested on Level 1 or Level 2. That being said, those tests are still garbage.

Sent from my SM-G935V using SDN mobile

We were told that the dates will be tested. Were the professors incorrect? I'll be really happy if this is the case.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

This article is right about some stuff. AT Still was a nut job, and his ideas were nonsense and have no basis in scientific literature. Unfortunately, the DO schools revere this guy for no reason. I'm a first year DO student, and the "Osteopathic Skills" class is like a cult gathering. We had a lecture on the history of osteopathic medicine, and had to memorize lots of "important" dates in AT Still's life and "important" dates and figures in osteopathic medicine. Guess what? These dates will be tested on the COMLEX. So yeah, sometimes I feel like I'm living in a nightmare.

I have never heard of anyone having "important dates" in their COMLEX. I certainly did not. Maybe that was the case decades ago.

 

[Stagg737]

We were told that the dates will be tested. Were the professors incorrect? I'll be really happy if this is the case.

There are a few dates in the pool of questions for Level 1, though I didn't have any on my tests and I'm unaware of any classmates who did either. Last time I heard someone actually having it was a couple people 2 years ahead of me. Hopefully they're not in the question pool anymore, but idk. If they are, it's literally 1 or 2 questions out of a couple thousand to pull from.

 

[deleted831695]

This article is right about some stuff. AT Still was a nut job, and his ideas were nonsense and have no basis in scientific literature. Unfortunately, the DO schools revere this guy for no reason. I'm a first year DO student, and the "Osteopathic Skills" class is like a cult gathering. We had a lecture on the history of osteopathic medicine, and had to memorize lots of "important" dates in AT Still's life and "important" dates and figures in osteopathic medicine. Guess what? These dates will be tested on the COMLEX. So yeah, sometimes I feel like I'm living in a nightmare.

I have no idea where you go to school, because OMM is pretty chill, not long at all, and far from a "cult gathering" lol.

 

[Decicco]

Link: "Dr. Larry Nassar was not a doctor" LA Times

AOA defends Nassar:

the American Osteopathic Assn. released a statement to MLive.com, the Michigan news service, saying that intravaginal manipulations are indeed an approved, if rare, osteopathic treatment for pelvic pain.

This kind of sex abuse started with A.T. Still:

the specter of violence and child abuse that Still conjured in his early writings continues to haunt the fringes of osteopathic medicine. These practices include intravaginal manipulation. Fisting. This was the "medical procedure" Nassar performed on so many young girls.

Osteopathic medicine focuses on the joints, muscles and spine. Historically, though, osteopathy — its original name — was closely associated with a set of esoteric massage styles that some researchers now consider ineffective or worse.

Dean of MSU College of Osteopathy defends Nassar: [link]

Dean William Strampel, the head of the [MSU] college of osteopathy, immediately wrote Larry an email and told him ‘Good luck, I’m on your side….’

Nassar's victim describes being mocked by Osteopathic dean:

And when my video testimony came out in the Indystar, graphically describing the abuse Larry perpetrated, disclosing horrific details to the world that no one was ever supposed to know, Dean Strampel forwarded that video to the MSU provost, and he mocked me. He called it the ‘cherry on the cake of his day.'

The AOA comes to Nassar's defense:

A small number of DOs who focus their practices on OMT are trained to do intra-pelvic procedures to address specific types of pelvic pain, although it is not at all common," the group said in a statement in response to inquiries about Nassar's techniques.

 

[begoood95]

Given that last thread...

 

[Pathman1000]

Thanks. Sometimes you guys make it too easy.

Typical obnoxious pimple popper

 

[JP2740]

In comes DO army defending Nasser like last thread

 

[DNC127]

*searches transfer policy of every MD school in the USA.*

 

[Anti-PD1]

But seriously, this could end up putting elements of OMM under public scrutiny for the first time.

 

[Peach Newport]

In comes DO army defending Nasser like last thread

No one defended Larry Nasser. No one. Not a single user.

However, YOU repeatedly accused DOs who defended osteopathic medicine of defending Larry Nasser, when they obviously weren’t.

What the DOs did was defend themselves from the assertion that OMM is an excuse to sexually assault people, a spurious, inflammatory, and extremely hurtful claim. See the difference?

Also, the article is biased, poorly researched, and strategically never mentions that osteopathic physicians overwhelmingly practice evidence-based medicine, OMM nobwithstanding. It’s more concerned with knocking down something associated with a bad man than on telling the truth. That’s what you call “bad reporting.”

 

[Decicco]

OMM is not evidence based (by any robust standard), the AOA defends sex abusers and vile practices like vaginal manipulation of children, and osteopathic schools deify child abusers like AT Still and (previously) Larry Nassar.

 

[Peach Newport]

OMM is not evidence based (by any robust standard), the AOA defends sex abusers and vile practices like vaginal manipulation of children, and osteopathic schools deify child abusers like AT Still and (previously) Larry Nassar.

*citation needed

 

[Mona nucleosis]

OMM is not evidence based (vs PT), the AOA defends sex abusers and dubious practices like vaginal manipulation of children, and osteopathic schools deify child abusers like AT Still.

99% of my class knows that OMM is a crock of **** and that the osteopathic leadership is a bunch of crooks.

The best we can do is to ignore all the drama; hide the DO after our name like such "Dr X, internal medicine"; and go on with our lives.

 

[Mona nucleosis]

*citation needed

If it was EBM, it would've already been a part of the MD curriculum.

 

[JP2740]

No one defended Larry Nasser. No one. Not a single user.

However, YOU repeatedly accused DOs who defended osteopathic medicine of defending Larry Nasser, when they obviously weren’t.

What the DOs did was defend themselves from the assertion that OMM is an excuse to sexually assault people, a spurious, inflammatory, and extremely hurtful claim. See the difference?

Also, the article is biased, poorly researched, and strategically never mentions that osteopathic physicians overwhelmingly practice evidence-based medicine, OMM nobwithstanding. It’s more concerned with knocking down something associated with a bad man than on telling the truth. That’s what you call “bad reporting.”

DO army is here

 

[Peach Newport]

If it was EBM, it would've already been a part of the MD curriculum.

No crap, I was taking about the part about the AOA “defending child abusers.”

 

[Mona nucleosis]

No crap, I was taking about the part about the AOA “defending child abusers.”

First excerpt in the OP

 

[Peach Newport]

First excerpt in the OP

That’s a false equivalence and you know it.

 

[NeurologyHopeful2018]

MSU medical school has changes its name to "Larry Nassar School of Osteopathic Medicine"

 

[Peach Newport]

Seems like there's a pretty big difference between "intravaginal manipulations can be used for pelvic pain" and "it's okay to do intravaginal manipulations on patients without their consent and without a medical indication and Larry Nassar is a great dude"

Not to mention the fact that the statement’s been taken completely out of context.

 

[DNC127]

OMM is not evidence based (by any robust standard), the AOA defends sex abusers and vile practices like vaginal manipulation of children, and osteopathic schools deify child abusers like AT Still and (previously) Larry Nassar.

Yo I think OMM is just as cooky as the next person, but lets not pretend like all of medicine is evidence based. Take the field of Orthopaedics for example. Literally tons of ortho procedures have almost zero EBM behind them, and some have been proven to be equal to or worse in outcome to conservative therapy. In 2011 the AAOS published their rotator cuff guideline which quickly went under fire because all the recommendations had NO EBM behind them and it was pretty much just an opinion based guideline[1]. The problem is that sometimes people are too prideful to admit when something doesn't work... as seen with OMM and other practices of medicine.

However, I agree with your points of DO schools worshiping AT Still, and now one DO school (MSU) defend sexual predators. We had a lecture where they talked about Still digging up graves of indians to study anatomy, and then tried to justify it with basically "it was for the greater good"... I almost choked.

1. http://www.arthroscopyjournal.org/article/S0749-8063(12)00217-4/fulltext

 

[Lawpy]

 

[Mona nucleosis]

That’s a false equivalence and you know it.

-A guy gets convicted for over 150 sexual assaults
-he says "that was legitimate OMM"
-AOA immediately backs him up with "that OMM is legit"

I dont see any false equivalence in that. I see it as them directly backing Nassar

 

[Decicco]

Not to mention the fact that the statement’s been taken completely out of context.

No, the AOA was responding directly to accusations against Larry Nassar. Quoted:

"A small number of DOs who focus their practices on OMT are trained to do intra-pelvic procedures to address specific types of pelvic pain, although it is not at all common," the group said in a statement in response to inquiries about Nassar's techniques.

There is no evidence for this technique. People who use osteopathy in order to justify digitally "manipulating" a woman's vagina are sex abusers. This is what the AOA should have said.

 

[med2345]

Ive successfully face palmed and cringed while reading this entire thread

 

[Lawpy]

Ive successfully face palmed and cringed while reading this entire thread

I'm just busy eating popcorn

 

[Peach Newport]

Goddam it. Everyone stop.

The issue of OMM’s efficacy is NOT the issue here. That’s a subject for a another thread.

The issue is that right now, there are *some* people who are, for whatever reason, trying equate the practice of OMM with sexual assault. This is a seriously inflammatory allegation to make.

@JP2740, you’re being a bully and you know it.

@Decicco, there is a massive gulf between performing a questionably efficacious technique on genitals and sexual assault. That gulf consists of little things like chaperones, informed consent, communication, and sterile practices.

 

[Decicco]

@Decicco, there is a massive gulf between performing a questionably efficacious technique on genitals and sexual assault. That gulf consists of little things like chaperones, informed consent, communication, and sterile practices.

Osteopathic vaginal manipulation of children is not "questionably efficacious," it's bull**** and everyone knows it. Those (including the AOA) who claim otherwise are giving cover to sex abusers like Larry Nassar. This isn't theoretical, this actually happened.

 

[Peach Newport]

Osteopathic vaginal manipulation is not "questionably efficacious," it's bull**** and everyone knows it. Those (including the AOA) who claim otherwise are giving cover to sex abusers like Larry Nassar. This isn't theoretical, this actually happened.

Once again you’re totally ignoring literally the only important part of what I said.

 

[Decicco]

Once again you’re totally ignoring literally the only important part of what I said.

I re-read what you wrote. What made Larry Nassar a child sex abuser isn't that he wasn't being "sterile" or that he was a poor "communicator" or that he didn't have a proper "chaperone." What made him a child sex abuser is that he performed sex acts on children under the cover of osteopathy.

 

[Jim Hopper]

No, the AOA was responding directly to accusations against Larry Nassar. Quoted:


There is no evidence for this technique. People who use osteopathy in order to justify digitally "manipulating" a woman's vagina are sex abusers. This is what the AOA should have said.

From the other thread:

OMM used to shield sexual abuse

The annual clinical breast exam and prostate exam both have little to no efficacy in screening for cancer. Yet most primary care/obgyn MDs I know do one or both routinely. This problem isn't unique to osteopathy.

From UpToDate:
View attachment 228395
View attachment 228396

There's minimal evidence for the long term efficacy of most treatment modalities (including invasive procedures) for relief of low back pain over placebo, yet those are still performed regularly. If a treatment is believed to be efficacious (even if there isn't solid evidence of it), is explained to a patient, and the patient approves, are you really going to call that assualt/harassment? Because that's the argument JP is making. If so, then you better consider other procedures and techniques outside of OMT, like epidurals for chronic LBP, to be assault as well. Again, that's not what this guy did. He legitimately abused his power to directly harm his patients. That is a very different argument than saying a treatment is assault because there isn't sufficient and definitive evidence for it's use.

Btw, more recent guidelines than 18 years ago from numerous groups have stated that there is insufficient evidence to recommend pelvic manual exams in most asymptomatic patients yet many OB's still do it. Even ACOG who still recommends them as regular screening for ovarian cancer and 1 or 2 other conditions (which we have other tests for) is reviewing their recommendation because of the results of the USPSTF findings.

Article: Medscape: Medscape Access

Current USPSTF recommendations:
Final Update Summary: Gynecological Conditions: Periodic Screening With the Pelvic Examination - US Preventive Services Task Force

So they've found there's no clinical based evidence for use of DRE for cancer screening. Are the MDs who still digitally penetrating men's anuses for prostate cancer detection sexual abusers now? Are the MD OBGYNs sexual abusers for ignoring updates in EBP when they perform pelvic examinations on asymptomatic patients? See how ridiculous blanket statements like yours are.

The quote in the article seemed to come from a question like "is intravaginal OMM ever used?" and they responded by claiming that there are rare instances where intravaginal OMM can be tried to relieve specific pelvic pain. As has been previously pointed out, this should be done gloved, with a chaperone, and in under 5 minutes. No one, not even the AOA, is condoning what Nassar did specifically; which is performing his "OMM" un-gloved, with no chaperones, and in excess of 20 minutes at a time for his obvious sexual indulgence.

I don't think there is likely any real benefit to be had from most OMM in general, especially anything related to cranial, Chapman's points, and intravaginal techniques. But that's not to say they cannot be attempted in a clinical, professional manner if they get consent beforehand and follow proper protocols. Labeling them as automatic sexual predators is uncalled for and isn't helping anything. As much as this forum loves any opportunity to create an MD = gods and DO = quacks thread, blatantly ignoring that most modern DOs engage in OMM strictly in order to pass their exams and then forget about it, or equating the actions of 1 sick individual to the entire osteopathic profession suggests you have an agenda to push.

 

[Peach Newport]

I re-read what you wrote. What made Larry Nassar a child sex abuser isn't that he wasn't being "sterile" or that he was a poor "communicator" or that he didn't have a proper "chaperone." What made him a child sex abuser is that he performed sex acts on children under the cover of osteopathy.

No, but the other 2 things you’re conveniently leaving out - lack of a chaperone and informed consent - are pretty damn important to this case.

A chaperone is EXTREMELY important. Like, basic medical ethics important. How can you play down the importance of a chaperone in this case?

 

[JP2740]

Goddam it. Everyone stop.

The issue of OMM’s efficacy is NOT the issue here. That’s a subject for a another thread.

The issue is that right now, there are *some* people who are, for whatever reason, trying equate the practice of OMM with sexual assault. This is a seriously inflammatory allegation to make.

@JP2740, you’re being a bully and you know it.

@Decicco, there is a massive gulf between performing a questionably efficacious technique on genitals and sexual assault. That gulf consists of little things like chaperones, informed consent, communication, and sterile practices.

I’ve seen your OMM. It was a legit video on YouTube of one of the DO quacks doing it. He literally grabbed the lady by the you know what, and moved her leg. I’ve been a resident for 3 years I shouldn’t feel that uncomfortable watching a “medical procedure”

 

[prexies]

I’ve seen your OMM. It was a legit video on YouTube of one of the DO quacks doing it. He literally grabbed the lady by the you know what, and moved her leg. I’ve been a resident for 3 years I shouldn’t feel that uncomfortable watching a “medical procedure”

if you're referring to the video posted in that other thread, that guy was a physical therapist, not a DO.

 

[Robotfishbrain]

DO student here -- ooph I wish the AOA would just be taken over by the ACGME already.

Also, this thread is a wonderful microcosm for every SDN thread ever. People talking past each other, users projecting their own insecurities and ignorance, and no one moving an inch on their position. Great stuff! I hope for my study break entertainment's sake that this thread doesn't get locked.

 

[el_duderino]

The AOA needs to stop existing, and the LCME needs to take over accreditation of DO schools.

 

[Jim Hopper]

I’ve seen your OMM. It was a legit video on YouTube of one of the DO quacks doing it.

"DO quacks" you're proving my point. Heads-up guy, the man in the video has PT after his name, not DO.

He literally grabbed the lady by the you know what, and moved her leg.

Are you a physician or a schoolboy? Grabbed the lady by the what? Vulva? No. He palpated for the pubic tubercle which is more closely associated with the mons pubis, and then monitored that point while he manipulated her leg into a position that would ease the originating muscles. He never once touched her vagina or vulva. IDK about the effectiveness for pelvic flood dysfunctions, but you know almost all of the adductor muscles originate from the pubic tubercle or pubic rami, right? Ever heard of a pulled groin? Strained adductor muscles.

https://i.imgur.com/791vhqT.png

I’ve been a resident for 3 years I shouldn’t feel that uncomfortable watching a “medical procedure”

Better not look up videos on prostate milking/massage then.

Prostate Massage Therapy: What are the Benefits? (written by an MD)

 

[AlMedNY23]

Thought I would chime in, as a current DO medical student...

What Larry Nassar did was wrong. He abused the trust that was bestowed upon him. He misused his medical license. He damaged several souls along the way. No medical professional, MD or DO, should condone his behavior. No medical school should condone his behavior, and the guys at the top (AOA) especially should not condone his behavior in any way shape or form. It is appalling, and he deserves what he got.

As for many who are now equating Osteopathic Medicine/OMT with Larry Nassar, that is not fitting. Have there not been MDs in the past who have abused their power and/or done heinous crimes? Sure there are. As a medical community, we are only as strong as our weakest link. Supporting someone who damages our profession and what we have worked hard to achieve only taints the true work we do every day to save and improve patients' lives.

OMT however does have its benefits. In my institution, OMT is taught partly by a physical therapist as well. Why? Because PTs also learn some of the same techniques in their training. Are you suddenly going to de-legitimize the field of physical therapy as well? Probably not. OMT definitely needs to be further researched. Certain aspects like cranial OMT and others need to go. I have not heard of intra-vaginal manipulations until now, and I don't think any physician should be performing such procedures. If the poor aspects of OMT were extracted out, we would be left with a set of proven techniques that removes restriction in the musculoskeletal system. Are you telling me that OMT does not have practical use in the fields of PM&R, neuromuscular medicine, pain medicine, non-surgical orthopedics, and sports medicine? Many of the qualified medical students and DO physicians who are coming out today know that OMT is to be used as an additional tool when conventional methods are not working or to prevent more invasive procedures. It is not meant to replace but to support sound medical treatment.

We know the statistics that only about 5-7% of DO physicians use OMT in their practice. Do not seek to discredit the DO education nor training. We all took the same premedical classes. We take all the same classes as our MD counterparts. Many of us take two sets of boards for each step. We go into the same residency and fellowship programs. We consult one another as attendings. We have DOs in prominent positions of power throughout the country. The international practice rights of DOs have expanded to over fifty nations. DOs account for 25% of the United States Physician workforce.

Summary:
-Larry Nassar's acts are WRONG and should not be supported by anyone in the medical community
-AOA's response was inadequate
-OMT has its merits, but should be more refined to exclude less useful/questionable therapies
-Don't equate the acts of one individual with an entire profession
-We're all in this together

 

[Peach Newport]

I’ve seen your OMM. It was a legit video on YouTube of one of the DO quacks doing it. He literally grabbed the lady by the you know what, and moved her leg. I’ve been a resident for 3 years I shouldn’t feel that uncomfortable watching a “medical procedure”

A YouTube video that makes you feel uncomfortable does not justify your behavior. You should know better than to make the insulting generalizations You’re making.

"DO quacks" you're proving my point. Heads-up guy, the man in the video has PT after his name, not DO.



Are you a physician or a schoolboy? Grabbed the lady by the what? Vulva? No. He palpated for the pubic tubercle which is more closely associated with the mons pubis, and then monitored that point while he manipulated her leg into a position that would ease the originating muscles. IDK about the effectiveness for pelvic flood dysfunctions, but you know almost all of the adductor muscles originate from the pubic tubercle or pubic rami, right? Ever heard of a pulled groin? Strained adductor muscles.

Better not look up videos on prostate milking/massage then.

Prostate Massage Therapy: What are the Benefits?

Wait - that video was just a guy monitoring the tenderpoint above the pubic symphysis? THAT’S what made this user so uncomfortable? Wow. Physical therapists (not even DOs) do that kind of thing every day.

I thought from his/her reaction the guy was actually touching her genitals.

 

[Anti-PD1]

Wth. Distilled,

1) Sexual assault is bad

2) Larry Nassar sexually assaulted girls under the guise of OMM, also covered by MSU

3) Whether or not OMM is proven, the vast majority is not intra-pelvic

4) Intra-pelvic OMM doesn't have robust evidence for use. If it were performed, as with any sensitive procedure, open communication, sterile technique, and a chaperone would be employed

5) Intent matters

6) The AOA has not denounced Nassar yet

7) MD = DO

-An MD student

 

[jw3600]

Mother ****er. Can the AOA keep their stupid mouths shut until I match in March? Then they can build the creep a statue with him holding the shocker for all I care. This is ridiculous. As if DO bias in matching ACGME isn’t already palpable enough.

 

[deleted831695]

MSU medical school has changes its name to "Larry Nassar School of Osteopathic Medicine"

You're not funny.

and now one DO school (MSU) defend sexual predators.

What the former Dean wrote in an email after he supposedly believed the initial Title IX investigation cleared Nassar does not equate to MSU-COM defending sexual predators FFS. Everyone here is disgusted at what unfolded, deeply saddened by what the Nassar survivors had to endure (though that's an inkling to what they had to experience), and ready to stand in solidarity and ensure this never occurs again.

 

[username456789]

Typical obnoxious pimple popper

Your continued hatred of derm is adorable.

 

[el_duderino]

Thought I would chime in, as a current DO medical student...

Question: are you taught "vaginal manipualation"? How are you taught to do this, and what do you use it for?

 

[AlMedNY23]

Question: are you taught "vaginal manipualation"? How are you taught to do this, and what do you use it for?

I've never encountered it thus far, and I can't imagine it being taught in the curriculum.