Out of the country vet schools

[Hals]

While shadowing a vet recently I asked him his opinion on Vet Schools that are out of the country. He told me to avoid them if I can help it but he didn't really elaborate on that very much. It just seemed like he disapproved.

What is the general consensus on vet schools out of the US? Will it hurt your chances of getting hired in the future?

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[katashark]

I applied to Ross, St. Georges and University of Sydney (all AVMA accredited) this cycle. I talked with a vet that I work for, and she said that vet students from out of the country aren't as stigmatized as they used to be, and some residencies like having students with diverse learning backgrounds, such as those from international schools. With my low GPA, average stats for everything else, and experience living abroad, I decided to take the chance and see where it takes me. School is what you make of it. Do well, learn the stuff, and prove that you're the one that they should hire.

 

[kieradi721]

While shadowing a vet recently I asked him his opinion on Vet Schools that are out of the country. He told me to avoid them if I can help it but he didn't really elaborate on that very much. It just seemed like he disapproved.

What is the general consensus on vet schools out of the US? Will it hurt your chances of getting hired in the future?

As a tech, I work and have worked with numerous vets both from international and U.S. Schools and they've advised me to pursue international just as I would U.S. The standard of education and variety of learning experiences have come highly regarded. My chief of staff doctor has actually preferred the new doctors who were schooled internationally, in that they are not shy of clinical and technical experience and they are very knowledgeable in many aspects of the field. Another doctor has told me that in her experience, the internationally produced vets are much less hasty to feel like a case should be immediately referred to specialty. All of the international doctors I have worked with are brilliant and proficient. Each vet school worldwide has their strengths and weaknesses. I've applied to a few U.S., but mainly international. As my interest is surgery, and the consensus is that they have a stronger concentration on hands-on procedures while in school. Many U.S. doctors I work with have voiced feeling unprepared in that regard upon starting practice. The decision is more about yourself as a person and where you foresee succeeding. Just don't rule out international schools per a silly stigma.

 

[CalliopeDVM]

While shadowing a vet recently I asked him his opinion on Vet Schools that are out of the country. He told me to avoid them if I can help it but he didn't really elaborate on that very much. It just seemed like he disapproved.

What is the general consensus on vet schools out of the US? Will it hurt your chances of getting hired in the future?

The key isn't really where they are as much as whether or not they are accredited by the AVMA.........because if they're not accredited, it will be an expensive and lengthy bunch of hoops to get your license when you return to the US.

There are excellent (English language) vet schools around the world that are accredited (in Canada, the UK, Australia, NZ, and parts of the Caribbean). I don't know any vets that discriminate against graduates from international accredited schools.

 

[deleted676737]

I am applying to four vet schools this cycle, one of which is the University of Glasgow in Scotland.

All of the doctors I've worked with who've graduated from AVMA accredited international vet schools have been just as competent as those from US schools. That being said, like CalliopeDVM mentioned, what's important here isn't necessarily whether the school is inside of the US or not, but rather their accreditation status. You theoretically shouldn't have any more difficult a time finding work in the US if you attend an international school provided that it is AVMA accredited. There used to be some stigma surrounding students who chose to go to those schools, but it seems to have largely disappeared outside of older vets. Perhaps someone who has actually recently graduated from such a school and has been on the job hunt can chime in and share their experiences.

I can't recommend, however, attending a non-AVMA accredited international school. There are long, costly, and -- from what I have been told -- immensely difficult equivalency exams you will have to pass in order to be able to practice in the US (and that is in addition to the NAVLE and state boards), and it's not worth the risk.

 

[that redhead]

Now that Ross and SGU are accredited, there is less of a negative perception of their students. That being said, there still are some who look down on Caribbean graduates (came across a few in my job hunting this spring.) If you go internationally, accredited or otherwise, be prepared to answer the question "Why didn't you go to school in the US?" I've answered that plenty of times both as a student and as a veterinarian and I went to school in Canada. I just smile and say it was the only one I was accepted to (which is true) and still got a great education.

 

[DogtorCK]

The vets I've talked to say the Caribbean schools are stigmatized because they are for profit and cranking out "too many students." But certainly not the aavma accredited European ones. I think Glasgow has like the #3rd ranked program in the world or something, so definitely no issues there. A vet friend of mine studied in Australia (Sydney I think) and practices in Canada. He said there were no issues there. As long as it's accredited you're probably fine. I applied to SGU because they do tend to be more lenient, so if the options are "no vet school" or "maybe a stigmatized vet school" I'm certainly not passing up the opportunity to get that degree and do what I love.

Again as others have said, non accredited schools aren't recommended if you want to come back here to practice. I worked with s vet who went to Italy, so he was all about non accredited schools, but I think the hoops have increased tremendously when it comes to getting your certification to practice back in the states. I wouldn't risk it, personally.

 

[Devastating]

The vets I've talked to say the Caribbean schools are stigmatized because they are for profit and cranking out "too many students."

^ this along with some perception that these schools are somehow academically subpar due to their comparative leniency among vet school admissions, seems to be what stigmatizes them among some people--but one thing I've seen time and time again is "whether you go to Cornell or a Caribbean school, you will effectively get the same quality of education and will still learn all the necessary skills to be a vet."
It's an important thing to remember, and especially since schools like SGU have become accredited, this sentiment seems to be picking up. I noticed that the DVMs at one local clinic I applied to earlier this year (husband and wife) had both gone to one of the Caribbean schools.

I started out applying to just a few US schools this year, but as far as Caribbean goes I will definitely be applying to St. Georges in future attempts and am looking into Dublin, Glasgow, Edinburgh, Sydney as well.

 

[jmo1012]

"whether you go to Cornell or a Caribbean school, you will effectively get the same quality of education and will still learn all the necessary skills to be a vet."
.

This is 110% the truth. And guess what? We train right along side the US students during 4th year, and those schools would absolutely not allow us to pass on if we weren't competent and intelligent (and occasionally that really does happen, and then the schools have to determine the next best course of action). Wanda are not waved and magic does not occur, a student has to earn the degree every time.

 

[Trilt]

^ this along with some perception that these schools are somehow academically subpar due to their comparative leniency among vet school admissions, seems to be what stigmatizes them among some people--but one thing I've seen time and time again is "whether you go to Cornell or a Caribbean school, you will effectively get the same quality of education and will still learn all the necessary skills to be a vet."
It's an important thing to remember, and especially since schools like SGU have become accredited, this sentiment seems to be picking up. I noticed that the DVMs at one local clinic I applied to earlier this year (husband and wife) had both gone to one of the Caribbean schools.

I started out applying to just a few US schools this year, but as far as Caribbean goes I will definitely be applying to St. Georges in future attempts and am looking into Dublin, Glasgow, Edinburgh, Sydney as well.

The Ross and SGU students I've worked with so far during fourth year have all been waaaay smarter than me.

 

[wheelin2vetmed]

Wands are not waved and magic does not occur, a student has to earn the degree every time.

Wait...what? I know Hogwarts doesn't exist but I was pretty sure there was lots of magic at vet school.

Withdrawing my VMCAS tomorrow.

 

[DVMDream]

As my interest is surgery, and the consensus is that they have a stronger concentration on hands-on procedures while in school. Many U.S. doctors I work with have voiced feeling unprepared in that regard upon starting practice. The decision is more about yourself as a person and where you foresee succeeding. Just don't rule out international schools per a silly stigma.

This is just false. Sorry, but there is NO vet school that is going to give you the hands-on experience with surgery you are thinking of. Having attended both an international school and US school... I have much more surgery experience at the US school than my friends do at the international one (obviously this will vary depending upon which schools you are discussing). You also have to remember cultural differences though. So the US regularly does spaying and neutering where the UK and other countries don't do that near as much. My international friends have needed to go other places to obtain some decent spay/neuter experience. They didn't get a junior surgery course like I did and many US schools do.

But since your interest is surgery, I highly doubt you care so much about spay/neuter. And how much spay/neuter you do in vet school will have no bearing on you getting into surgical residencies. The surgeries that you would be doing as a surgeon you will be lucky if you get to hold and hand instruments while the surgery is occurring. This is true at all schools. There is a flow where the clinician is usually doing the surgery, the resident is assisting, there may be an intern helping to assist/hold/suction and the student might get to hold/hand instruments.

I wouldn't be basing your school choice off of how much "hands-on" experience you will get with surgery because of your surgery interest. Because the truth is, it doesn't matter where you go... US or international.. you won't be getting that much "hands on" when it comes to surgery outside of spay/neuter. Except for at the schools that still do terminal surgeries then you might get to do some additional things with that.



Bottom line, you will get a good education anywhere that is accredited.... the "hands-on" stuff varies from school to school. When it comes to "hands-on surgery experience" you will want a school with terminal surgeries then, because that is going to give you the most and best "hands on" experience.

 

[pinkpuppy9]

This is just false. Sorry, but there is NO vet school that is going to give you the hands-on experience with surgery you are thinking of. Having attended both an international school and US school... I have much more surgery experience at the US school than my friends do at the international one (obviously this will vary depending upon which schools you are discussing). You also have to remember cultural differences though. So the US regularly does spaying and neutering where the UK and other countries don't do that near as much. My international friends have needed to go other places to obtain some decent spay/neuter experience. They didn't get a junior surgery course like I did and many US schools do.

But since your interest is surgery, I highly doubt you care so much about spay/neuter. And how much spay/neuter you do in vet school will have no bearing on you getting into surgical residencies. The surgeries that you would be doing as a surgeon you will be lucky if you get to hold and hand instruments while the surgery is occurring. This is true at all schools. There is a flow where the clinician is usually doing the surgery, the resident is assisting, there may be an intern helping to assist/hold/suction and the student might get to hold/hand instruments.

I wouldn't be basing your school choice off of how much "hands-on" experience you will get with surgery because of your surgery interest. Because the truth is, it doesn't matter where you go... US or international.. you won't be getting that much "hands on" when it comes to surgery outside of spay/neuter. Except for at the schools that still do terminal surgeries then you might get to do some additional things with that.


Bottom line, you will get a good education anywhere that is accredited.... the "hands-on" stuff varies from school to school. When it comes to "hands-on surgery experience" you will want a school with terminal surgeries then, because that is going to give you the most and best "hands on" experience.

Just to add on for the poster-it will never be the same as live, but a lot of clubs (specifically the surgery club here) seem to host cadaver labs where you can learn surgical techniques. It usually isn't anything too crazy (I don't think you'll be doing cruciate repairs as a first year in a club), but it's just an opportunity to look for. Some schools also have colic teams where you may witness surgery, wildlife clinics where you may witness/participate in surgery, etc. It could be worth asking about on tours or on interview days if there's a student panel. I agree with DVMD that it seems most students don't experience too much more than a spay/neuter unless they're lucky. If a complicated surgery is brought to a teaching hospital, there is no way a student would be doing it.

Externships (aka going other places like DVMD said) can help, too. The student who externed where I worked did spays, neuters, laser tag removals, dentals, and assisted with anything more complex.

 

[kieradi721]

This is just false. Sorry, but there is NO vet school that is going to give you the hands-on experience with surgery you are thinking of. Having attended both an international school and US school... I have much more surgery experience at the US school than my friends do at the international one (obviously this will vary depending upon which schools you are discussing). You also have to remember cultural differences though. So the US regularly does spaying and neutering where the UK and other countries don't do that near as much. My international friends have needed to go other places to obtain some decent spay/neuter experience. They didn't get a junior surgery course like I did and many US schools do.

But since your interest is surgery, I highly doubt you care so much about spay/neuter. And how much spay/neuter you do in vet school will have no bearing on you getting into surgical residencies. The surgeries that you would be doing as a surgeon you will be lucky if you get to hold and hand instruments while the surgery is occurring. This is true at all schools. There is a flow where the clinician is usually doing the surgery, the resident is assisting, there may be an intern helping to assist/hold/suction and the student might get to hold/hand instruments.

I wouldn't be basing your school choice off of how much "hands-on" experience you will get with surgery because of your surgery interest. Because the truth is, it doesn't matter where you go... US or international.. you won't be getting that much "hands on" when it comes to surgery outside of spay/neuter. Except for at the schools that still do terminal surgeries then you might get to do some additional things with that.



Bottom line, you will get a good education anywhere that is accredited.... the "hands-on" stuff varies from school to school. When it comes to "hands-on surgery experience" you will want a school with terminal surgeries then, because that is going to give you the most and best "hands on" experience.

I'm not making a blanket statement. And I'm not saying vet students at some schools are regularly operating, either. I know very well that's not the case. I'm simply giving insight I've obtained from years of working with doctors from upenn, ncstate, davis, rvc, Ross, Ohio, Glasgow, Edinburgh, virginia md, and auburn, as well as being friends with individuals in both in and out of state schools at the moment. The general consensus in my conversations with these doctors is that they USUALLY, not always, prefer internationally educated vets for reasons I don't feel necessary to elaborate on; mostly because I know how sdn conversations lead to unnecessary debates (which actually had me hesitant to voice my input to begin with, since it seems any opinions that vary from those of certain individuals' seem to be tackled).

This is all personal preference on these doctors' behalf, and certainly speaks no certainty to any vet or school's standard of education or their graduates' potential. I don't discredit any school or location. My intent was to assist the individual poster in viewing their application process in the same, unbiased light as I view my own. I also have no clouded judgment regarding a surgical residency in the future; as I'm well aware of the hurdles and and individual competency necessary to land a spot in such a program. I'd never be silly enough to believe that any vet school would be a shoe-in for that.

Moral of the story: (as previously stated) the experience is what you make of it. You become the doctor you strive to be through hard work and perseverance, not solely by way of the institution that prints your degree.

Good luck everyone! ️

 

[pinkpuppy9]

I'm not making a blanket statement. And I'm not saying vet students at some schools are regularly operating, either. I know very well that's not the case. I'm simply giving insight I've obtained from years of working with doctors from upenn, ncstate, davis, rvc, Ross, Ohio, Glasgow, Edinburgh, virginia md, and auburn, as well as being friends with individuals in both in and out of state schools at the moment. The general consensus in my conversations with these doctors is that they USUALLY, not always, prefer internationally educated vets for reasons I don't feel necessary to elaborate on; mostly because I know how sdn conversations lead to unnecessary debates (which actually had me hesitant to voice my input to begin with, since it seems any opinions that vary from those of certain individuals' seem to be tackled).

This is all personal preference on these doctors' behalf, and certainly speaks no certainty to any vet or school's standard of education or their graduates' potential. I don't discredit any school or location. My intent was to assist the individual poster in viewing their application process in the same, unbiased light as I view my own. I also have no clouded judgment regarding a surgical residency in the future; as I'm well aware of the hurdles and and individual competency necessary to land a spot in such a program. I'd never be silly enough to believe that any vet school would be a shoe-in for that.

Moral of the story: (as previously stated) the experience is what you make of it. You become the doctor you strive to be through hard work and perseverance, not solely by way of the institution that prints your degree.

Good luck everyone! ️

I don't think anyone would necessarily debate with you on that....it's usually when someone says the opposite that you get heat. I am curious to hear the reasoning behind it though, especially if it's more than the institution itself as the reason

 

[kieradi721]

Just to add on for the poster-it will never be the same as live, but a lot of clubs (specifically the surgery club here) seem to host cadaver labs where you can learn surgical techniques. It usually isn't anything too crazy (I don't think you'll be doing cruciate repairs as a first year in a club), but it's just an opportunity to look for. Some schools also have colic teams where you may witness surgery, wildlife clinics where you may witness/participate in surgery, etc. It could be worth asking about on tours or on interview days if there's a student panel. I agree with DVMD that it seems most students don't experience too much more than a spay/neuter unless they're lucky. If a complicated surgery is brought to a teaching hospital, there is no way a student would be doing it.

Externships (aka going other places like DVMD said) can help, too. The student who externed where I worked did spays, neuters, laser tag removals, dentals, and assisted with anything more complex.

I appreciate the information, as it's very useful. My comments on debating and heat were not directed at you. I've read your posts in numerous threads and have yet to see you use a condescending or argumentative tone, which (as I am sure you're aware of) is very much appreciated from pre-vet posters!

 

[DVMDream]

I'm not making a blanket statement. And I'm not saying vet students at some schools are regularly operating, either. I know very well that's not the case. I'm simply giving insight I've obtained from years of working with doctors from upenn, ncstate, davis, rvc, Ross, Ohio, Glasgow, Edinburgh, virginia md, and auburn, as well as being friends with individuals in both in and out of state schools at the moment. The general consensus in my conversations with these doctors is that they USUALLY, not always, prefer internationally educated vets for reasons I don't feel necessary to elaborate on; mostly because I know how sdn conversations lead to unnecessary debates (which actually had me hesitant to voice my input to begin with, since it seems any opinions that vary from those of certain individuals' seem to be tackled).

This is all personal preference on these doctors' behalf, and certainly speaks no certainty to any vet or school's standard of education or their graduates' potential. I don't discredit any school or location. My intent was to assist the individual poster in viewing their application process in the same, unbiased light as I view my own. I also have no clouded judgment regarding a surgical residency in the future; as I'm well aware of the hurdles and and individual competency necessary to land a spot in such a program. I'd never be silly enough to believe that any vet school would be a shoe-in for that.

Moral of the story: (as previously stated) the experience is what you make of it. You become the doctor you strive to be through hard work and perseverance, not solely by way of the institution that prints your degree.

Good luck everyone! ️

Yes, I realize you aren't saying that vet students at some schools are regularly operating. I am saying that if you really think that some of those international schools are providing actual hands on surgery experience (even just spays/neuters), you are going to be disappointed. I am not trying to say it to be mean or rude, but to just get out the information. My friends who are attending one of the schools you stated above are able to obtain at school 1/2 of a spay and 1/2 of a neuter as part of the actual curriculum. What the UK schools do that the US schools do not is what is called EMS. This is required clinical experience that the student must obtain on their own dime away from school at other clinics. Some students will fill a few EMS slots with spay/neuter experiences elsewhere. Cyprus seems to have been a big place for people that I am friends with to go. So, they don't actually get much surgery experience at all as part of the curriculum, they have just made it a point to get that experience themselves (which you can do at any school). I can't chime in on the other international school, but I believe it is similar. The UK doesn't do much spay/neuter surgery, it is a big cultural difference compared with the US.

Compare that to the two spays and two neuters I got to do as part of the curriculum at the school I am now at. That doesn't include the splenecotmy, jejunal resection and anastamosis, the gastropexy, gastrotomy, and liver biopsy that I have also been able to do... as part of the curriculum.

I am not trying to "tackle you" or anything, but when you post this:

I've applied to a few U.S., but mainly international. As my interest is surgery, and the consensus is that they have a stronger concentration on hands-on procedures while in school. Many U.S. doctors I work with have voiced feeling unprepared in that regard upon starting practice.

That to me is saying that because of your interest in surgery, you have decided to apply to more international schools. And you have done so because "they have a stronger concentration on hands-on procedures while in school". I am only trying to pass on actual first-hand experience from my point of view. Because I have attended both international and US. I have friends still at international. I know what the schools told us directly in regards to obtaining surgery experience.

 

[pinkpuppy9]

I appreciate the information, as it's very useful. My comments on debating and heat were not directed at you. I've read your posts in numerous threads and have yet to see you use a condescending or argumentative tone, which (as I am sure you're aware of) is very much appreciated from pre-vet posters!

Oh I understand! I was just making sure that you knew that when it comes to the international schools, people just don't appreciate the negative stereotypes (usually those are about the Caribbean schools though). Do you mind sharing why your bosses preferred international grads? I'm curious

 

[DVMDream]

Be nice and give personal experience and explain how things work at a specific school so that people have that information= condescending and argumentative...

I about give up with pre-vets these days... can't give them any advice or even attempt to be nice.

 

[kieradi721]

Yes, I realize you aren't saying that vet students at some schools are regularly operating. I am saying that if you really think that some of those international schools are providing actual hands on surgery experience (even just spays/neuters), you are going to be disappointed. I am not trying to say it to be mean or rude, but to just get out the information. My friends who are attending one of the schools you stated above are able to obtain at school 1/2 of a spay and 1/2 of a neuter as part of the actual curriculum. What the UK schools do that the US schools do not is what is called EMS. This is required clinical experience that the student must obtain on their own dime away from school at other clinics. Some students will fill a few EMS slots with spay/neuter experiences elsewhere. Cyprus seems to have been a big place for people that I am friends with to go. So, they don't actually get much surgery experience at all as part of the curriculum, they have just made it a point to get that experience themselves (which you can do at any school). I can't chime in on the other international school, but I believe it is similar. The UK doesn't do much spay/neuter surgery, it is a big cultural difference compared with the US.

Compare that to the two spays and two neuters I got to do as part of the curriculum at the school I am now at. That doesn't include the splenecotmy, jejunal resection and anastamosis, the gastropexy, gastrotomy, and liver biopsy that I have also been able to do... as part of the curriculum.

I am not trying to "tackle you" or anything, but when you post this:



That to me is saying that because of your interest in surgery, you have decided to apply to more international schools. And you have done so because "they have a stronger concentration on hands-on procedures while in school". I am only trying to pass on actual first-hand experience from my point of view. Because I have attended both international and US. I have friends still at international. I know what the schools told us directly in regards to obtaining surgery experience.

I believe you're a knowledgeable person who could provide a lot of insight and assistance, should you rethink the tone you use in future posts. I've seen this said to you before, so I know I'm not just being defensive as a result of overactive VMCAS hormones

 

[battie]

Okay. You're the one that said the following (direct quote):

As my interest is surgery, and the consensus is that they have a stronger concentration on hands-on procedures while in school.

Then you say this:

The general consensus in my conversations with these doctors is that they USUALLY, not always, prefer internationally educated vets for reasons I don't feel necessary to elaborate on; mostly because I know how sdn conversations lead to unnecessary debates (which actually had me hesitant to voice my input to begin with, since it seems any opinions that vary from those of certain individuals' seem to be tackled).

I feel the first is what DVMD was referring to. She refuted it as false because no matter what school (state-side or international), you will get the same basic surgery training if you go through the basic curriculum. If you are going to make your second statement, the burden of proof is on you to support your first statement. If you're going to say, "...for reasons I don't feel necessary to elaborate on...", that seems super argumentative to me (like saying, "I believe this because someone told me X. But I'm not going to tell you X").

Discussions on SDN rarely lead to "unnecessary debates" unless someone refuses to accept that they are wrong in the information they have given here. Most debates here are pretty decent as it can be pretty educational.

 

[DVMDream]

I believe you're a knowledgeable person who could provide a lot of insight and assistance, should you rethink the tone you use in future posts. I've seen this said to you before, so I know I'm not just being defensive as a result of overactive VMCAS hormones

My tone isn't the issue. It is the inability for you to read positive intent. My post was nothing but additional information for you. You chose to read into it more than what was there. I can't change that.

 

[pinkpuppy9]

My tone isn't the issue. It is the inability for you to read positive intent. My post was nothing but additional information for you. You chose to read into it more than what was there. I can't change that.

Maybe it was the "NO" at the beginning? You and I butt heads over a lot of stuff and I don't think you came across as rude

 

[kieradi721]

My tone isn't the issue. It is the inability for you to read positive intent. My post was nothing but additional information for you. You chose to read into it more than what was there. I can't change that.

In all actuality, maybe I've misconstrued your tone (and if that's the case, I apologize for that and thank you for your intent) but as I've stated before, I've seen people interpret your dialogue just as I have tonight (which has to count for something, right?) You may not realize how you come across, but that's none of my business. There are arguments on this site day in and day out...people asking how to block one another...and so on. That's what we get for joining a conglomeration of passionate and intelligent people! Or for the lack of clarity in social media communication Letting this drop...No hard feelings!

 

[DVMDream]

Maybe it was the "NO" at the beginning? You and I butt heads over a lot of stuff and I don't think you came across as rude

Heck if I know.

Whatever, the information is there. They can either choose to acknowledge it or decide that because I rustled their jimmies somehow that suddenly all that information is no longer valid. I really don't care.

 

[pinkpuppy9]

In all actuality, maybe I've misconstrued your tone (and if that's the case, I apologize for that and thank you for your intent) but as I've stated before, I've seen people interpret your dialogue just as I have tonight (which has to count for something, right?) You may not realize how you come across, but that's none of my business. There are arguments on this site day in and day out...people asking how to block one another...and so on. That's what we get for joining a conglomeration of passionate and intelligent people! Or for the lack of clarity in social media communication Letting this drop...No hard feelings!

I suddenly feel like I've been missing out on some good reading

 

[DVMDream]

In all actuality, maybe I've misconstrued your tone (and if that's the case, I apologize for that and thank you for your intent) but as I've stated before, I've seen people interpret your dialogue just as I have tonight (which has to count for something, right?) You may not realize how you come across, but that's none of my business. There are arguments on this site day in and day out...people asking how to block one another...and so on. That's what we get for joining a conglomeration of passionate and intelligent people! Or for the lack of clarity in social media communication

Letting this drop...No hard feelings!

I don't think I have seen anyone ask how to block someone on this site in quite some time, if ever.

There aren't arguments here day in and day out. Some discussions turn into debates, but there is a difference between a debate and an argument, that it seems a lot of the newcomers aren't recognizing.

Typed words can be hard to convey tone. Which is why we repeatedly keep saying, "Assume positive intent".

Always, always, always assume positive intent on this forum and generally in life. It makes your life so much better overall. Assume people have positive intentions. Trust me, I honestly never have negative intentions with any of my posts, but I am also not going to sneeze out unicorn glitter into my posting or place an emoticon in every paragraph, just to make people feel the happy vibes.

If I am taking the time to respond, give personal experience, explain how things work, etc... I am doing so to be nice. I am doing so to help. I have better things to do with my time than to post just to be an asshat.

 

[DogtorCK]

Yes, I realize you aren't saying that vet students at some schools are regularly operating. I am saying that if you really think that some of those international schools are providing actual hands on surgery experience (even just spays/neuters), you are going to be disappointed. I am not trying to say it to be mean or rude, but to just get out the information. My friends who are attending one of the schools you stated above are able to obtain at school 1/2 of a spay and 1/2 of a neuter as part of the actual curriculum. What the UK schools do that the US schools do not is what is called EMS. This is required clinical experience that the student must obtain on their own dime away from school at other clinics. Some students will fill a few EMS slots with spay/neuter experiences elsewhere. Cyprus seems to have been a big place for people that I am friends with to go. So, they don't actually get much surgery experience at all as part of the curriculum, they have just made it a point to get that experience themselves (which you can do at any school). I can't chime in on the other international school, but I believe it is similar. The UK doesn't do much spay/neuter surgery, it is a big cultural difference compared with the US.

Compare that to the two spays and two neuters I got to do as part of the curriculum at the school I am now at. That doesn't include the splenecotmy, jejunal resection and anastamosis, the gastropexy, gastrotomy, and liver biopsy that I have also been able to do... as part of the curriculum.

I am not trying to "tackle you" or anything, but when you post this:



That to me is saying that because of your interest in surgery, you have decided to apply to more international schools. And you have done so because "they have a stronger concentration on hands-on procedures while in school". I am only trying to pass on actual first-hand experience from my point of view. Because I have attended both international and US. I have friends still at international. I know what the schools told us directly in regards to obtaining surgery experience.

Is Cyprus accredited? Is there a difference in the experience provided by accredited vs nonaccredited international schools? I feel like the international school I've read about boast more hands on experience on their websites than what you've indicated (not more than US, more than 1/2 spay and 1/2 neuter)

 

[Minnerbelle]

I don't think I have seen anyone ask how to block someone on this site in quite some time, if ever.

Clearly this must be because you've been blocked by the users posting such info in this mysterious blocking feature such that you can't see those posts ;P

Here's a unicorn glitter fart for ya, in case you didn't get my giggly jokey tone.

 

[CalliopeDVM]

Is Cyprus accredited? Is there a difference in the experience provided by accredited vs nonaccredited international schools? I feel like the international school I've read about boast more hands on experience on their websites than what you've indicated (not more than US, more than 1/2 spay and 1/2 neuter)

Cyprus vet school is not accredited (there's a list on the AVMA website https://www.avma.org/ProfessionalDe...leges-accredited_results.aspx?college=Foreign). There are far too many vet schools to say whether there's a difference between accredited and non-accredited schools - there will be more difference for some and very little difference for others. The issue with non-accredited schools isn't that you necessarily will get a worse education, it's that you will need to spend several years and probably over $10,000 to get licensed in the US when you return.

 

[DVMDream]

Is Cyprus accredited? Is there a difference in the experience provided by accredited vs nonaccredited international schools? I feel like the international school I've read about boast more hands on experience on their websites than what you've indicated (not more than US, more than 1/2 spay and 1/2 neuter)

I have no idea if there even is a vet school in Cyprus. That's just where they went to obtain the surgery experience, at a spay/neuter facility there. You can do this while attending any vet school.

 

[DogtorCK]

I have no idea if there even is a vet school in Cyprus. That's just where they went to obtain the surgery experience, at a spay/neuter facility there. You can do this while attending any vet school.

Oh oh oh, sorry. Which schools did they attend? I assumed you meant they went to school there because Cyprus is so far from UK. I mean, I'm all the travel, I've heard it's beautiful there, but that's pretty intense. I feel like this must be an exaggeration, but perhaps it's something for us to keep in mind and ask about at our interviews if we can't find the exact curriculum on their websites.

 

[Minnerbelle]

Is Cyprus accredited? Is there a difference in the experience provided by accredited vs nonaccredited international schools? I feel like the international school I've read about boast more hands on experience on their websites than what you've indicated (not more than US, more than 1/2 spay and 1/2 neuter)

I don't think Cyprus is a school (correct me someone if I'm wrong), but somewhere people go on elective rotations to get experience?

If you just go by what the standard surgical curriculum gives you, you really won't learn much at all at most schools domestic or international... So it honestly doesn't matter. Outside of schools with terminal surgery labs, I have not heard of a single one out of the AVMA accredited foreign or domestic schools that gives significantly better surgical training as a part of the core curriculum. Sure they boast about how they prioritized "hands on learning" or whatever... But they don't really. It makes me eye roll when I see that advertised.

I actually graduated from a US school with the standard 2 spays in junior year as the only live surgeries being done as a part of the core curriculum. Some students literally only get those two surgeries plus maybe a couple of neuters or whatever during community practice core rotation before they graduate if they don't search out opportunities to get experience. Those are the people more likely to end up as "dud" new grads that practice owners are frustrated with.

I mean, with such few surgical experiences, of course they're under confident. But more than that, if you hire someone who wasn't motivated and didn't take the self initiative to learn to be competent in school... Likely that person is not going to be the most go getter, confident, self learner in practice. That is likely your boss' experience. Many of the foreign school grads are the go getter types to begin with, particularly those who went to them due to not being able to go to a school stateside, because to get to where they are, they've had to fight extra hard all along and have that quality about them. It's not that their school's curriculum is better. I can assure you there are horrible students in every school that will make that school look bad. I have seen multiple disastrous Rossies too, along with the many awesome ones.

Even with just sticking with elective rotations affiliated with my vet school (I didn't do humane alliance or go to externships for surgery outside of my school), I graduated with around 100 solo surgeries, where 20+ were not spay/neuters. When employers see my surgical experience, esp as all my experiences WERE done through my school, it makes them think my school has a fabulous surgical training program. When employers see a classmate of mine who has done 2 spays, 1 dog neuter, and half a cat neuter, they get outraged at the school for their horrible curriculum. Same school, same opportunities, it's just a matter of what you make of it.

 

[DVMDream]

Oh oh oh, sorry. Which schools did they attend? I assumed you meant they went to school there because Cyprus is so far from UK. I mean, I'm all the travel, I've heard it's beautiful there, but that's pretty intense. I feel like this must be an exaggeration, but perhaps it's something for us to keep in mind and ask about at our interviews if we can't find the exact curriculum on their websites.

I'm not sure what you're asking here.

 

[DVMDream]

Cyprus isn't like a required thing to do. Clinical EMS is required at UK schools. EMS is completed during school breaks. You can obtain EMS anywhere with a few exceptions. Some of the UK students simply chose to go to Cyprus for some of their EMS. So, yes it counted towards something the school requires, but you don't have to go there. You could do the same spay/neuter experience in the US or elsewhere. Or you could just decide you don't want to use your EMS for spay/neuter experience and do something else entirely.

 

[DVMDream]

I don't think Cyprus is a school (correct me someone if I'm wrong), but somewhere people go on elective rotations to get experience?

If you just go by what the standard surgical curriculum gives you, you really won't learn much at all at most schools domestic or international... So it honestly doesn't matter. Outside of schools with terminal surgery labs, I have not heard of a single one out of the AVMA accredited foreign or domestic schools that gives significantly better surgical training as a part of the core curriculum. Sure they boast about how they prioritized "hands on learning" or whatever... But they don't really. It makes me eye roll when I see that advertised.

I actually graduated from a US school with the standard 2 spays in junior year as the only live surgeries being done as a part of the core curriculum. Some students literally only get those two surgeries plus maybe a couple of neuters or whatever during community practice core rotation before they graduate if they don't search out opportunities to get experience. Those are the people more likely to end up as "dud" new grads that practice owners are frustrated with.

I mean, with such few surgical experiences, of course they're under confident. But more than that, if you hire someone who wasn't motivated and didn't take the self initiative to learn to be competent in school... Likely that person is not going to be the most go getter, confident, self learner in practice. That is likely your boss' experience. Many of the foreign school grads are the go getter types to begin with, particularly those who went to them due to not being able to go to a school stateside, because to get to where they are, they've had to fight extra hard all along and have that quality about them. It's not that their school's curriculum is better. I can assure you there are horrible students in every school that will make that school look bad. I have seen multiple disastrous Rossies too, along with the many awesome ones.

Even with just sticking with elective rotations affiliated with my vet school (I didn't do humane alliance or go to externships for surgery outside of my school), I graduated with around 100 solo surgeries, where 20+ were not spay/neuters. When employers see my surgical experience, esp as all my experiences WERE done through my school, it makes them think my school has a fabulous surgical training program. When employers see a classmate of mine who has done 2 spays, 1 dog neuter, and half a cat neuter, they get outraged at the school for their horrible curriculum. Same school, same opportunities, it's just a matter of what you make of it.

It makes me eye roll too.

Question for you: How did you list your surgery experience on your resume?

 

[Minnerbelle]

It makes me eye roll too.

Question for you: How did you list your surgery experience on your resume?

For my first job out of school, I put it in the "job description" part of electives I listed. That way it showed that I did do surgery in my electives rather than just having the name of the elective.

An example of how I listed surgical experience from one of my electives:

 Performed multiple surgeries from open to close, including routine spay/neuter of cats and dogs, pyometra surgery, cherry eye surgery, and an abdominal exploratory with resection and anastomosis

 Performed 3 dentals with radiography and multiple teeth extractions, with 4 gingival flaps and 2 firmly rooted deciduous canine extractions


I don't do this anymore now that I've built up enough credentials as a veterinarian that I don't have to, and can have a more normal CV. But I felt like it made me more hireable for my first job, because my goal there was to make me stand out from everyone else who was just graduating. I made sure to list skills I had or experiences directly applicable to my future job that others might not have. And I have to say, a majority of places I sent my CV out to called back for an interview so apparently it wasn't seen as obnoxious.

I also definitely stated in my interviews that I felt comfortable enough with spays/neuters/cystotomies/anesthesia that I was fairly self sufficient. That it would be great to have someone in the building during my surgery days, but that I would be ready to be let loose to have surgery days. And that I felt comfortable starting out with not too crazy dentals and do know how to properly extract teeth, but would like to have someone in the building that I would be able to interrupt here and there to ask for some assistance.

 

[Trilt]

For my first job out of school, I put it in the "job description" part of electives I listed. That way it showed that I did do surgery in my electives rather than just having the name of the elective.

An example of how I listed surgical experience from one of my electives:

 Performed multiple surgeries from open to close, including routine spay/neuter of cats and dogs, pyometra surgery, cherry eye surgery, and an abdominal exploratory with resection and anastomosis

 Performed 3 dentals with radiography and multiple teeth extractions, with 4 gingival flaps and 2 firmly rooted deciduous canine extractions.

I wish we had the ability to get that much surgical experience in our curriculum! And hands-on dental - I'm super jealous. Is that like a community medicine rotation or something?

I'm mentally adding up all the surgery opportunities I can think of that are actually in our 4th year, and the only thing really guaranteed is if you go through GP, you'll definitely get a couple more spay/neuters. Otherwise you might do some tiny lumpectomies or a castration on st sx, might get to do an enucleation on ophtho, etc.

 

[shortnsweet]

Well this thread escalated quickly.

 

[Devastating]

Looking at the list of accredited international schools, I notice that St George's status is "Accredited with minor deficiency (Standard 10-Research Programs)". What does this mean? (The school in the Netherlands also has this listed but with multiple different "deficiencies")

 

[shortnsweet]

Looking at the list of accredited international schools, I notice that St George's status is "Accredited with minor deficiency (Standard 10-Research Programs)". What does this mean? (The school in the Netherlands also has this listed but with multiple different "deficiencies")

Means it's conditional. They have a certain amount of time to fix it or they get put on Probation.

 

[shortnsweet]

Also, OP, being an international grad has not affected my working in the US. I have matched through the VIRMP twice now, both times at my first or second choice position. I did, however, go to an AVMA accredited school. Stigmas still exist for international schools, but they exist for US schools too, so take it with a grain of salt.

 

[Minnerbelle]

I wish we had the ability to get that much surgical experience in our curriculum! And hands-on dental - I'm super jealous. Is that like a community medicine rotation or something?

I'm mentally adding up all the surgery opportunities I can think of that are actually in our 4th year, and the only thing really guaranteed is if you go through GP, you'll definitely get a couple more spay/neuters. Otherwise you might do some tiny lumpectomies or a castration on st sx, might get to do an enucleation on ophtho, etc.

This actually brings up a good point.

One thing I will say about choosing schools based on hands on curricula. If you feel that is very important to you, choose a school that allows for the maximum number of weeks of elective rotations during clinics. Cause if your school only allows 4 weeks or whatever, and the rest is core rotations that aren't designed to give you a ton of experience, you have only 4 weeks to try and get hands on experience. Compare that to schools that allow like 14-18 weeks! Other things to consider are schools that have robust community medicine programs that let you be the primary doctor/surgeons on your cases. A couple of well known ones are Davis and Tufts in that regard. I'm sure there are others, but those are the ones I keep hearing about.

I mean... "Hands on learning" first year is cute and all dandy... But practicing a few physical exams and knot tying, or shadowing 4th years on their rotations here and there when you barely know a butthole from the ear isn't going to help you nearly as much as getting excellent opportunities during your clinical year(s). It might make the first couple of years funner, but it doesn't mean you'll be a better doctor. The more things are a part of core curricula, which has to be available for every student in your class, the less you personally will get from it.

 

[dyachei]

But practicing a few physical exams and knot tying, or shadowing 4th years on their rotations here and there when you barely know a butthole from the ear isn't going to help you nearly as much as getting excellent opportunities during your clinical year(s).

I don't agree with you here. Yes, get excellent opportunities during your clinical year and make sure you have time for external rotations. However, physical diagnosis skills are very practice based as is knot tying. I think even not knowing anatomy very well it helps tie anatomy to what you will be doing on a daily basis in clinical vet med. Sometimes having the clinical application makes it click more for certain students and I wouldn't dismiss that as "cute and dandy". Physical diagnosis is a very important skill and should be practiced for as long as possible.

 

[Minnerbelle]

I don't agree with you here. Yes, get excellent opportunities during your clinical year and make sure you have time for external rotations. However, physical diagnosis skills are very practice based as is knot tying. I think even not knowing anatomy very well it helps tie anatomy to what you will be doing on a daily basis in clinical vet med. Sometimes having the clinical application makes it click more for certain students and I wouldn't dismiss that as "cute and dandy". Physical diagnosis is a very important skill and should be practiced for as long as possible.

Obviously those are important skills, and as far as I've seen, most schools do have them incorporated early on.

I just think it's deceiving when people say you should go to this or that school because of it. One, because most of the time, it's not actually very unique at all to that school. Two, because I think it's far less important than having stronger curricula during your final year(s).

 

[shortnsweet]

Obviously those are important skills, and as far as I've seen, most schools do have them incorporated early on.

I just think it's deceiving when people say you should go to this or that school because of it. One, because most of the time, it's not actually very unique at all to that school. Two, because I think it's far less important than having stronger curricula during your final year(s).

I have seen a very clear difference in my students who have had more time in clinics (2 yrs vs 1) and the ones who had more externship time.
Makes me appreciate my 38 weeks of EMS that much more.

 

[pinkpuppy9]

Obviously those are important skills, and as far as I've seen, most schools do have them incorporated early on.

I just think it's deceiving when people say you should go to this or that school because of it. One, because most of the time, it's not actually very unique at all to that school. Two, because I think it's far less important than having stronger curricula during your final year(s).

I see what both you and dy are saying. As a first year who is about to start 'junior' rotations, I really am looking forward to tying in the stuff I just learned. Sitting in lectures/reading a book doesn't always do it for me. We just had a whole bunch of endocrinology thrown at us, and it will help me a lot actually seeing it. Same for anatomy-I got lucky and have an orthopedic sx rotation next quarter. Assuming I get to see things, that may help anatomy click more as well. However, I do feel like I'll be in over my head when it comes to the surgical skills clinic and maybe even if I'm asked to do/know certain things that haven't been covered yet. We also only have 1 years of clinics, so interpret that as you will. I'd like to have more time in clinics once I (theoretically...) know more.

 

[shortnsweet]

Wait...what? I know Hogwarts doesn't exist but I was pretty sure there was lots of magic at vet school.

Withdrawing my VMCAS tomorrow.

Hogwarts exists...It's Glasgow. Look at the pictures man. Our school colors even matched Gryffindor.

 

[kieradi721]

Hogwarts exists...It's Glasgow. Look at the pictures man. Our school colors even matched Gryffindor.

Is it true that they had taken overhead shots of the main campus for the movie?

 

[shortnsweet]

Is it true that they had taken overhead shots of the main campus for the movie?

I know they at least used the cloisters for some scenes.