I was wondering how much does a pathologist earn in the US? Ive heard of so many different numbers and i dont know to count on which one... Is it hard to find a job?
Pathologist salary
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It's very likely that all the different numbers you have heard are correct. There is no uniform salary. Academic salaries can range from low $100k to much higher and private practice can range from higher $100s to much much higher.
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Academic salaries range from 75K (academic instructor) to 5million (head of dermpath at Columbai) http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local...columbia_dermatology_professor_tops_nonp.html
After further research he is a dermpath trained dermatologist which means he is probably a higher caliber of personality so I don't know if he counts.
After further research he is a dermpath trained dermatologist which means he is probably a higher caliber of personality so I don't know if he counts.
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The peer reviewed literature is almost always a more authoratative source than an internet discussion forum, and you are encouraged to use that.
To answer the question about what is a typical starting salary, a JAMA analysis of academic physicians shows that in 1999 a pathologists salary at the 20th percentile was $110,000, the median salary was $139,000 and the 80th percentile was $183,000. This information can be found in Pubmed, PMID 10974694. The 20th percentile salary would be the approximate salary for a new assistant professor.
They data are 10 years old, and should be adjusted for inflation. Also, these are academic salaries. Private practice will almost always be higher. More recent information will be found in the AAMC annual salary survey which most medical schools have in the library.
You should note that radiologists and anesthesiologists have earned a higher salary compared to pathologists for at least the last 25 years. The listed salary is actually total compensation, which would include base salary and bonuses. Total compensation does not include the costs of fringe benefits.
To answer the question about what is a typical starting salary, a JAMA analysis of academic physicians shows that in 1999 a pathologists salary at the 20th percentile was $110,000, the median salary was $139,000 and the 80th percentile was $183,000. This information can be found in Pubmed, PMID 10974694. The 20th percentile salary would be the approximate salary for a new assistant professor.
They data are 10 years old, and should be adjusted for inflation. Also, these are academic salaries. Private practice will almost always be higher. More recent information will be found in the AAMC annual salary survey which most medical schools have in the library.
You should note that radiologists and anesthesiologists have earned a higher salary compared to pathologists for at least the last 25 years. The listed salary is actually total compensation, which would include base salary and bonuses. Total compensation does not include the costs of fringe benefits.
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My point is is that there really isn't one answer. There is a wide range of salaries dependant on innumeruable variables.
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What do you mean by "higher caliber of personality"? What kinds of general things are true of personalities in pathology? Thanks.
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The thing I would worry about with pathology isn't even the salary. It's the job market. I've had numerous new grads lament to me about how hard it is to find a job anywhere- let alone at a desirable location. One guy who graduated from a top academic program couldn't find a job for nearly a year.
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While not 100% true across the board, pathologists tend to be introverted types who enjoy wearing scurbs every day, listening to headphones at work and rarely going to education conferences. Dermatology types tend to be the type who dress like bananna republic models, go to every conference, be outgoing extroverted perfectionists and in general are just much more alpha. They also tend to be in the insanely hot and charming group which is rare in medicine. That is the thing about derm, is that it is so competitive that if you make it into a harvard or elite california program, you are not only extremely academically accomplsihed, have done uber research, and got awesome letters of recommendatio. You also must be insanely hot and charming. There has to be some weed out criteria and since all derm applicants rock every single category it comes down to intangibles, like how hot or pleasant you are to be around.
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If by "insanely hot" you mean incredibly superficial, arrogant, bleach-blonde and just kind of all around weird, then yes, that describes most of the derm people I know at my home school.
Okay, so that was in half-jest (but really, only half). I couldn't help myself. Especially since this is of course degenerating into another "the job market sucks and we're all going to be miserable" thread.
...exit stage left...
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I was laughing when I was reading your post.
Anyways...I think you got so excited while you typed the post that you forgot to check for typos
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I saw one of my attendings eating lunch in his office the other day. He inhaled both of those pieces of bread like he hadn't eaten in three days. Then he washed it down with a styrofoam cup of some coffee that had been 3rd-time-brewed. He had a taut face and looked real hungry. Then he turned to his scope and started signing out again.
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The above post made my day.
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does he wash the oculars with his tears?
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This is becoming an epically fantastic thread.
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You *saw* an attending, or was the attending you...or you're making up a hypothetical situation that could happen to all of us? Rather sad...honestly.
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"bread-breather's lung" or gluten-sensitive pneumoconiosis
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That made me literally LOL, GeoLeoX. Strong work!
/I'm glad that I haven't seen any attendings that hungrily inhale plain white bread for their lunch...
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Good old SDN, always good to lighten one's mood when one is up at 2 am worrying about going broke.
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glad to see some humor back in the forum.
Those numbers from 1999 seem to be extremely off, even after including inflation. Lots of factors have made pathology much higher paying these days. My mom is a FMG pathologist with 6-ish years experience and she makes over $200k for 4 days a week. Everyone she knows is also around that pay level. She attributes it to greater awareness of the lifestyle benefits, and greater emphasis on accurate diagnosis due to lawyers and such.
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I have 25+ years experience and I don't recall a time when there was not great emphasis on accurate diagnosis. I don't see where that would come into play.
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The listed salary ranges are for academic pathologists. Physicians in private practice typically earn more.
Now I must rush off to help resuscitate one of the faculty who just inhaled a piece of bread.
Well, I took it to mean that physicians are running more tests in general, and a pathologist can be very helpful in a malpractice situation. Maybe I misinterpreted--what do I know, I'm just starting out as a student. Anyways, the salary trend seems to be real. When she was in residency, lots of pathologists she knew were making $100k even in private practice.
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Seems rather low. My private group hired me out of the navy w/3 years post residency experience ( and a limited clinical background of 3 years) for 100k in 1988 and that was pretty cheap for the time. As a partner we made 500-700k. You MUST be talking about academics.
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In canada at a hospital its around 300-350
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I agree with everyone else.
Meaning, the pay really can be anything from peanuts to golden eggs. I dunno what the job market's like for a good ol' surgical pathologist, but only a few years ago it seemed like there were a decent number of available jobs being advertised -- if you were willing to relocate, and possibly take a slide mill job for a while. Most of my contemporaries seemed to be getting initial offers from the low-to-mid $100,000 range in the academic setting to maybe mid $200,000 range in the private setting? I suppose that could all have been lies, or they were just lucky (unlucky?), I dunno.
Personally I went into the relatively niche subspecialty of forensic path, and my impression has always been that it doesn't generally correlate particularly well with the majority of anatomic path salaries. In fact, some forensic/ME offices have been arguing to push salaries up to that of the average pathologist in their state/region. (That said, fresh out of fellowship forensic path jobs were generally listing from low $100k's to upper $100k's.)
Meaning, the pay really can be anything from peanuts to golden eggs. I dunno what the job market's like for a good ol' surgical pathologist, but only a few years ago it seemed like there were a decent number of available jobs being advertised -- if you were willing to relocate, and possibly take a slide mill job for a while. Most of my contemporaries seemed to be getting initial offers from the low-to-mid $100,000 range in the academic setting to maybe mid $200,000 range in the private setting? I suppose that could all have been lies, or they were just lucky (unlucky?), I dunno.
Personally I went into the relatively niche subspecialty of forensic path, and my impression has always been that it doesn't generally correlate particularly well with the majority of anatomic path salaries. In fact, some forensic/ME offices have been arguing to push salaries up to that of the average pathologist in their state/region. (That said, fresh out of fellowship forensic path jobs were generally listing from low $100k's to upper $100k's.)
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I find it really amazing that one can earn 5,000,000 a year doing pathology (i.e. the dermpath guy from Columbia). That's pretty amazing salary for a widgit job (i.e. paid per unit produced). That salary rivals elite college football coaches, B-level actors, semi-successful rockstars and CEOs of not that interesting corporations. It doesn't come close to what elite Americans make (i.e. Bill Gates, Lebron James, Lady Gaga, Howard Stern, Oprah, Tiger Woods, Madonna, George Soros, Steven Spielberg, Larry Ellison, Steve Jobs etc and others that have the ability to create products, ideas, experiences that will be consumed by millions) as they can earn 9 figure income and are "worth" a number with three commas in it.
But still people like the Columbia and the UCSF dermpathers are pretty remarkable, though hardly in the tier or elite Americans.
But still people like the Columbia and the UCSF dermpathers are pretty remarkable, though hardly in the tier or elite Americans.
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I don't necessarily mean this to be an insulting comment, but I think you may have one of the best track records for "where the hell did that come from?" and "WTF?" posts of any SDNer.
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Don't you think it is remarkable that one can pull 5million a year for stamping out widgits? That's real wealth compared to most physicians but isn't even in the ballpark of what elite people earn (Snoop Dog, Dr. Dre, `Eminem, Jay-z, Cameron Diaz, Mark Zuckerberg, Sergey Brin, The Clintons, Obama etc.... who are worth hundreds of millions to or potential to billions).
Leboit's salary is holding steady at 1.853 million for 2009.
I wonder if there are any private practice pure dermpath labs and how much their pathologists make?
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Dermpath Diagnostics is a private pure dermpath lab. The branch in Dallas is run by Clay Cockerell. I don't know how much he makes, but according to several friends who have spent some time at his sign out sessions, he literally signs out more than a THOUSAND cases in a day, at least sometimes. This is not an exaggeration. I simply could not believe this but several reliable sources confirmed it. He uses the pitcher/catcher method and views each slide for a few seconds for most cases. I am not saying that I agree with or favor this style; I am just reporting the second hand account that I have heard.
Anyway, I don't know how much of a cut he gets of the profit from that practice, but just imagine how many 88305's they are billing per year...
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The numbers I've heard are more like 600 hundred per day, but I wouldn't be surprised if he does >1000 some days. He finishes the regular cases by late morning, then does around 75 consult cases per day after that, then plays golf almost every afternoon. This is directly from people who have been there.
I've also heard that his fellows often catch mistakes that he makes. Not too surprising considering that he diagnoses almost everything at 2x. If I had a mole biopsied in Texas, I'd make sure it went elsewhere.
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Pure "private practice lab",eh? Dermpath Diagnostics is a division of Ameripath which is a wholly owned subsidiary of---Quest diagnostics. They split off from Ameripath as a separate division several years ago.
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Looking at their website, that hardly seems like private practice and looks more like reference lab work. I am sure those dermpathers do well but they probably only get a small fraction of what they sign-out. I am talking about a dermpath lab owned by by a small group who also signs-out the cases.
Not university based does not equal private practice. Working in a community hospital for a pathology group owned by ameripath, APP or anyone else is not private practice. Private practice is the cottage industry of medicine where small groups of doc own and run their own practices. At a local path society meeting I met a young pathologist who thought he was joining a private practice in the Midwest with a 3 year partnership track. Well after 2 years the group was sold to Ameripath and the partners received a huge windfall. He got nothing. He stayed on for a few years and said it was a pretty miserable experience with Ameripath expecting him to go out and pitch for new outpatient business. Plus although he made a decent salary, it was far less than what a partner in a true private practice would make. He explained Ameripath's business model involved them taking the first 23% of all revenue from the hospital based group. Any profit over that was split 50-50. So in essence he was getting paid about 40% of what he would be making if it was private practice. But I guess you can hope that they can drive more biopsies your way. But still you have to work twice as hard to make the same amount. Seems like a bad situation to me. He finally got out and was finally able to get a job with a true private practice.
But back to the point at hand. If a private practice dermpath guy really could sign-out 1000 cases in a day, that would be generating about 120,000 in global revenue (figuring about 120 for PC/TC on an 88305). That would be serious cash and put you around 25 million a year. Now we are talking real money. Approaching elite american status. That would be so totally bitching for a widgit job.
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Yes, that was the calculation that my friends came up with when trying to estimate how much money Cockerell might be making per year.
But good point to both mikesheree and pathstudent for pointing out my error: Dermpath Diagnostics is a subsidiary not an independent private practice. I forgot about that. I think that Cockerell and Ackerman were part owners/founders of Dermpath Diagnostics, or something like that. I have always been a bit confused on that part of the story.
Whetherby, I have heard very similar things to what you are saying. I agree that while 2x is great, even the best people will eventually miss something at that power. But what do I know...I am just a resident. ;-)
I'm sure he's making well into the millions, but nowhere close to 25M. Ameripath takes a large portion, plus they do doctor-billing so they probably only collect a fraction of the bill for many of their cases.
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Salaries in private groups do vary based on the area of the country that you are working in. They will also be related to payer mix of the group based on the patient population base that you serve (ie the percentage of patients with medicare, medicaid, private insurance, self-pay, and charity cases that the group does). Pathologists have less control over that payer mix than other specialties (usually you have to accept all the insurances that the hospital you serve accepts, no matter what their percentage of reimbursement). It is also affected by how effective the billing company of the group is at collecting maximum of the charges that you are due. All of these things contribute to the value of the practice which is usually how the salaries are based. It is to your benefit to find out information like that about a private group before you join.
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Since when has salary been about value to society?
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Absolutely they are far more valuable. If they weren't, then Urban Meyer, mack brown, and pete carroll wouldn't have been paid 5 million a year.
Is Paul Macartney (worth about a billion) more valuable than a doctor? Absolutely. He gave so much to the world.
The question you should ask is why do doctors earn 10x what grade school teachers earn. Who is more valuable a first grade teacher or an oncologist who spends 100K to give a chemo to a 75 year old so they can live to be 75 and 6 months instead of 75 and 4 months?
People that can create (Steve Jobs, Tom Cruise, Lady Gaga, Michael Jordan) are infinitely more important than your grind it out widgit maker doctors and they are paid accordingly.
What you should be asking is why are doctors paid so much more than ditch diggers and mailmen. What would you rather have roads and mail or some guy that will give you Tarceva so you can live an extra couple months with massive side effects at the end of your life.
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On the other hand, without physician involvement in the "improvement" of health care over the years, maybe none of those in the sports/entertainment industries are ever born, or live past X. Value isn't just about one person's, or even an entire society's, perception -- nor do I think an individual's income is the only or the best measurement of their value to the whole. Everyone plays their role, but not every role is easy or cheap to get into, nor entirely appreciated by everyone else.
At least, often not until they go on strike. We were without baseball for a while, which was bothersome but I'm not sure it made much difference to the world at large. We were without writers for a while too, which I'm not sure would have been noticed were it not in the news at the time. But have nurses go on "strike" and hospitals screech to a halt, even with some nurses staying around for patient care. Pilots? Teachers? I dunno, perhaps a better estimation of value should include viewing the world abruptly without?
At least, often not until they go on strike. We were without baseball for a while, which was bothersome but I'm not sure it made much difference to the world at large. We were without writers for a while too, which I'm not sure would have been noticed were it not in the news at the time. But have nurses go on "strike" and hospitals screech to a halt, even with some nurses staying around for patient care. Pilots? Teachers? I dunno, perhaps a better estimation of value should include viewing the world abruptly without?
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I recently made a similar argument to a friend who dared to say that pathologists were not real doctors.
One way to view the value of pathologists is to consider what would happen to general patient care and management if there were no pathologists. How many other specialties (there are a few) will be missed to the same extent as pathologists?
Unfortunately, working behind the scenes may sometimes translate to relatively less "value" and lower pay.
The same thing applies on the global scale. The more people are able to physically see and/or appreciate what you do (whether it is dunking, putting, acting, holding a patient's hand or removing a tumor, etc), the more monetary "value" they attach to you. In addition, the extent to which you are perceived to generate pleasure or deplete stress, determines how much people are willing to pay for your services.
The average salaries paid in a particular industry or line of work are, in general, directly proportional to how much money is generated in those industries (basically, how much money can you get others to pay you to observe you at work or make use of what you can provide). Furthermore, within each industry/specialty, your relative salary is often tied to how much you are SEEN or PERCEIVED to have contributed to the pot of gold. Unfortunately, the more your role is taken for granted, the less you are likely to be paid, but if all the custodial staff in our hospitals went on strike for just one month (and were not replaced), we would see just how superficial some of our "value" systems can be.
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