PBS Frontline - For Profit Universities

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I'm not even sure the Argosy students are entirely without responsibility. It's super risky to attend a program that isn't yet APA accredited.

Yes... on the other hand, if no one was willing to attend an unaccredited program, no new programs, including university-based PhD programs, would be accredited, as the APA requires that programs graduate at least one person before even APPLYING for accreditation. Given that accreditation is usually a multi-year process, that means multiple years of students usually have to be willing to graduate from an unaccredited program. It's kind of a catch-22 in a way.

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Just as an FYI, Google Adsense cycles through paid banners, SDN doesn't select them.

Either way, it's still of note. That a for-profit school advertises so aggressively in our faces on this site is funny.
 
As for your (and many others') evaluation of the quality of PsyD training and education, what is this based upon?

I am wondering if anyone has any information on admissions standards for PsyD programs as opposed to PhD programs. My evaluation of a school is based, in large part, on that.

For example, and as an illustration of the basis of my personal feelings, I have a friend who scored an 1100 on her GRE. Her GPA, not that impressive, her research experience nil, but she had some clinical experience at her job. She likely would've had a very difficult time gaining admissions to a PhD program, but was accepted at both PsyD programs that she applied to.

I don't understand why a program that has lower admissions standards would be considered as rigorous and as preparatory as a school that has higher admissions standards. But I am VERY open to someone setting straight my feelings on this, if possible.
 
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Can we please make an effort to differentiate between PsyD/PhD/Online/For-Profit programs? There are for-profit online PsyD programs (Capella), for-profit online PhD programs (Walden), for-profit B&M PsyD programs (Argosy DC), not-for-profit online PhD programs (Fielding), unfunded not-for-profit B&M PsyD programs (Yeshiva/LIU), and fully-funded not-for-profit B&M PsyD programs (Rutgers). Might be some I've missed.

Like Jon Snow says, it is not an issue of for-profit or not-for-profit. I know students from both types of schools who are looking at 6-figure debts. Yeshiva, a not-for-profit B&M PsyD program, currently charges $1,465 per credit with very limited funding while Argosy DC, a for-profit B&M PsyD program, charges ~$1000 per credit. By comparison, Walden charges $470 per credit and you save even more by not having to move to a city with a high cost-of-living.

I believe the argument that most are trying to make relates to the quality of clinical training one can receive from an online school vs a B&M school. To lump both types of schools into an "inferior" PsyD degree is very unfair. There are excellent clinicians with PsyD degrees, perhaps the majority of those coming from B&M schools. They take part in the match with good success. Please stop attacking the PsyD degree based on your own misconceptions and ignorance.

The other argument, and perhaps what is underlying much of the vitriol, is the "saturation" of the field. Increasing debt and the increasingly competitive job market can certainly push our already low salaries down even further as debt-ridden students clamor for the first job they can get without negotiating or waiting for better opportunities.

Personally, I don't believe in online education for practice-heavy professions like nursing/clinical or counseling psychology/medical degrees. As for over-saturation, it's complicated.
 
Well that's PsyD programs for ya....Sometimes you just really don't get what you pay for!

Does not equal:

I'm not here just trying to bash and piss off PsyD students...




Admit your agendas. And to claim that there must be some validity to your claims because lots of people feel that way is the same excuse made for racist ideology. Of all people here on SDN, I know YOU couldn't possibly think with that logic.
 
Well just to give a counter example, I had 1500+ on my GRE, a very high GPA, excellent research experience, and a MA in psychology. I did get into (and currently attend) a PhD program but I was rejected from every PsyD program I applied to (although I did get interviews at 2/3).

Obviously my example is purely anecdoctal just like yours and doesn't really prove anything. But that's kind of my point, you can't tell much from individual stories.

In terms of actual numbers, the programs I applied to accepted about 10-20% of applicants.

I am wondering if anyone has any information on admissions standards for PsyD programs as opposed to PhD programs. My evaluation of a school is based, in large part, on that.

For example, and as an illustration of the basis of my personal feelings, I have a friend who scored an 1100 on her GRE. Her GPA, not that impressive, her research experience nil, but she had some clinical experience at her job. She likely would've had a very difficult time gaining admissions to a PhD program, but was accepted at both PsyD programs that she applied to.

I don't understand why a program that has lower admissions standards would be considered as rigorous and as preparatory as a school that has higher admissions standards. But I am VERY open to someone setting straight my feelings on this, if possible.
 
I'm not sure I see a huge difference between the for-profit and the not-for-profit programs. Take Alliant, Argosy, and Fielding as examples. All three are standalone programs. All three have mostly subpar EPPP scores and match rates along with high admittance rates, high tuition and hence, debt. I don't know which one of those is for profit and which ones are designated not for profit. It doesn't really matter; that's a tax designation. The functional reality is that all exist and flourish based on tuition payments. I think you can go in to university based Vail model programs and find the same issues (e.g., Yeshiva, FIT et al. . .).




That's, I think the major selling point of the psyD. It's the same applicant pool as the MSW, LPC, MFT progams (okay, not quite that bad). This all plays into each other. We have eroding lines between scopes of practice and eroding lines between student cohorts. We are driving down the quality of our doctoral level practitioners (~ 50% of new grads come from professional schools now) and the overall mental health practioner quality (moving towards LCSW and other 2 year degrees).

Whats with the jab against MSW, LPC and MFT? You do realize some of those programs are extremely hard to get into right? And that some highly qualified ppl have no desire to get a doctorate?

People wrongly assume so much about those programs.
 
Can we please stop this thread from turning into another Phd vs. PsyD debate? There's already a discussion for that, and I really think the for profit university is a separate issue.
 
Pardon the length of my post, it sort of just kept getting longer as I wrote. I applaud anyone who reads it all.

I don't understand why a program that has lower admissions standards would be considered as rigorous and as preparatory as a school that has higher admissions standards. But I am VERY open to someone setting straight my feelings on this, if possible.

This is an issue of Supply v. Demand + some external moderators.

In a given market, the relationship between supply and demand will greatly impact the cost of the particular good/service. In a market with a high supply and a low demand, the good/service will have a lower cost compared to a market with a low supply and a high demand (assuming no external moderators like a rebate or tax are applied to good/service).

In our scenario, the total number of applicants (demand) far out-number the available slots in graduate school (supply), therefore the cost of securing a spot rises. An applicant will now need to offer more than before to secure a spot. Complicating matters are some external moderators (less gov't grants, poor economy, etc), which now raise the cost even more.

Some may argue that inflation has set in, which means the original cost (or in our scenario value of the applicant) has gone above what was previously needed, not because of a natural market adjustment (req. to do the same job are now higher), but because of external moderatoring factors. More simply, the 1200, 3.5 GPA, and 1 poster presentation applicant is now less competitive for higher slots, and thus the "bar" has been raised. There are still capable applicants with "lower" statistics, but this is still a relative comparison.

-------

The introduction of for-profit education has increased the supply side, which on the surface meets the market demand. The problem with this "solution" is the range of applicants that populate the application pool. There are still those 1st group candidates that will take the top positions. The 2nd group of candidates that pre-inflation were still "competitive" for good programs will take the less desirable next level slots (poor location, less funding, lower prestige, etc), but now the 3rd grouping that otherwise would have been rejected now have a place to go.

The 1st and 2nd group candidates are pretty homogenous in their applications, as they have the grades and research training, though there are some within-group variances. These within-group variances are at least partially responsible for their group placement. I'd argue "fit" is another contributing factor for group placement.

For instance, two candidates apply work with the prestigious Professor X. Applicant A has the typical background that has shown to do well in graduate school....good grades, 1200 or so on the GRE, research experience, etc. Applicant B has slightly higher marks AND is a better fit. The result is Applicant B takes the spot, and Applicant A gets bumped. Either applicant would probably have done fine with Professor X, but Applicant B was above and beyond the requirements. Applicant B is now relegated to a "lesser" (relative to Professor X) slot with Professor Y, though they both still get into decent programs.

Now lets look at that 3rd group. This 3rd group is quite different from the first two groups in regard to their background and training. The competitive nature of graduate psychology prior to the introduction of for-profit training did a decent of keeping standards high. The applicants in the first two groups generally have similar numbers, while the 3rd group typically doesn't. More importantly though, the 3rd group often approaches graduate training differently. The bifurcation within the field between the first two groups and the third group is not Ph.D. v. Psy.D., but instead it is the different approach to graduate training between two different types of applicants. Some people over-simplify this by splitting by training model (which many falsely attribute to be Ph.D. v. Psy.D.), but it is more complex than that. I posit that there are multiple models within graduate psychology that can produce solid clinicians (which encompass both Ph.D. and Psy.D. programs), but because some programs admit students who are not otherwise competitive. I'm not saying that all program types are good or bad or that some students with lower numbers won't fight the odds to be a good clinician, but increasing the variance of student you let in, decreases the likelihood that all of the students on the way out will be adequately trained.

For-profit institutions in particular capitalized on the variance within the 3rd group. They came in and not only offered a place for most applicants in the 3rd group, but they also changed the requirements of training. APA did a poor job of regulating these requirements, and like any business, the loop-holes were exploited.

We have also started to see the impact of an increased supply on the back-end of graduate school (internship imbalance, higher competitiveness for post-docs, lower pay for new graduates, etc). So now we have far more graduate students coming out AND they differ in their overall training.

In the end, we as a profession are left to deal with the fallout of under-regulated for-profit institutions, acred. standards that are not sufficient, a market that is flooded by too many providers (Masters and Doctoral level). and a gov't that is willing to overlook scope encroachment because the wrong people are offering up the right money to make it happen.
 
This is a really good point. When I was considering applying, I looked at every (and I mean every) accredited school on the APA website, and it seemed (to me, not an empirical study) that the Psy.D programs were employing mostly PhDs as professors, DCTs, Deans, etc etc. If the PhDs in academia and the 'real world' look down on the Psy.D as a world, as you suggest, Wapote, why are they training entire generations of them?

A sample of universities faculty attended in two Southern California Professional Schools:

Core and Adjunct Faculty one Alliant Campus(non profit)

University of Cincinnati (2)
University of Texas
University of Michigan
University of Illinois at Urbaba-Champaign
University of New Mexico
University of California, Santa Barbara
California School of Professional Psychology, Los Angeles
Southern Illinois University
Catholic University
Boston University
Pacific Graduate School of Psychology
Indiana University of Pennsylvania

Argosy Core faculty one campus(for profit)

University of Miami
Ohio University
University of Massachusetts
University of Minnesota
California School of Professional Psychology(4)
Loma Linda University
University of Chicago
Catholic University

Nearly all listed are PhDs. Most of these programs are APA. I know Alliant requires APA program for clinical psychology faculty, not sure of Argosy. I think that it is easy to attract people to Southern California to teach. I do not think that they pay instructors well. Alliant pays $1200.00 per unit for adjunct faculty. The tradition of CSPP was that the instructors were all practicing psychologists. Even top notch instructors, unfortunately, can be encouraged to pass students by the institution. I see this as a problem. Fortunately, people are weeded out in other ways. They do not finish their dissertation, they receive poor evaluations of clinical work. Unfortunately, they end up on a lot of debt to find they are not suited for clinical psychology.
 
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I feel like a lot of MA programs are also business-like and charge way too much money. I earned my MA at CUNY and am now in a counseling PhD program. I really wanted to go to the New School of NY, but their MA program cost over 1200/credit.
I know someone who went there, and I guess they make false promises...They accept about 50 MA student and tell them if they do well, they stand a chance of getting into the PhD program, so everyone works really hard and competes with one another, and in the end they pick the 5 who kissed up the most. My friend was lucky enough to get in, but is pretty unhappy due to the cost. She is not done and already has over 100,000 in debt!! She said if she had to do it again, she would not go to the New School. She stated that she thinks people go to schools like this because they really want a doctorate, but cannot get into anywhere else, or just want to stay in the city. A lot of students at NS even borrow a ton of money to pay for city rent.:eek:
 
Some? Maybe. Most, no. And, it's been used as a way of backdooring into being a fully functioning psychotherapist. Now, it's just blatant. . . here's an alterative shorter, easier path to being a mental health professional, now to the point of positions hiring for MSW or PsyD/PhD. That's just wrong.

backdooring really?

So lets take my fiance for example. Who spent her entire undergrad career performing research while working on her psych degree. By the time it came around to app to schools, she realized research was not her thing and she wanted to work with families exclusively in a therapy setting. So she goes to a great MFT program and was taught all the skills to do the job effectively.

She graduated w/ honors and a 4.0. 5 national conference presentations, 2 first author publications and 4 second author research projects. Hundreds of hours of clinical work a 1440 GRE and a 750 Psych GRE.

Is she not qualified to do these jobs?

Posts like yours come from ignorant ppl who assume things. I'd like to see your qualifications against hers or lets see how your PhD stands up to her masters degree when it comes to building a successful practice and treating patients.

If you want to do research, possibly teach then go get your PhD. If all you really want to do is provide therapy then a masters degree is fine.

Saying that they are not qualified to do the job of a PhD holder is nothing short of an ignorant comment.
 
Yes, and some PhD programs that aren't doing so hot on the research end use their MA programs (in a professional school like manner) to pay for the PhD program. Ugly business, that.

tons of traditional universities do this

John Jay does this w/ their forensic psych program, which is the best one in the world. Is that ugly practice?

You live in a fantasy land.
 
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I am wondering if anyone has any information on admissions standards for PsyD programs as opposed to PhD programs. My evaluation of a school is based, in large part, on that.

For example, and as an illustration of the basis of my personal feelings, I have a friend who scored an 1100 on her GRE. Her GPA, not that impressive, her research experience nil, but she had some clinical experience at her job. She likely would've had a very difficult time gaining admissions to a PhD program, but was accepted at both PsyD programs that she applied to.

I don't understand why a program that has lower admissions standards would be considered as rigorous and as preparatory as a school that has higher admissions standards. But I am VERY open to someone setting straight my feelings on this, if possible.


I pretty much agree. I'll admit it people... I don't think PsyDs GENERALLY (as in most) are not as well trained or competitive as GENERALLY (MOST) Ph.D. programs. Also, I would like to mention something about class sizes. A class that has 6 students is going to be better educated and have more one on one time with a professor than a class with 30 students. Its as simple as that. I'm just skeptical of the value on which I could place on a PsyD's degree vs that of a PhD. Also, speaking of admission stats... a school that generally accepts people with 3.6 or so vs a school that accepts someone with a 3.0 or a 3.2... How can you say that is on par? I don't get it. Sounds like MA, LCSW, LPC and MFT applicants to me.


Professional schools, whether they are Ph.D. or PsyD aren't generally as good as programs affiliated with universities.

Also, with the whole supply and demand debate, yeah... they opened more schools to let in more people to make a profit? How is this good? Now there is an excess number of psychologists who were previously unable to get into programs due to their unacceptable applications. I would rather there be fewer psychologists that are rigorously trained than too many that aren't trained well enough.

Also, in clinical psychology, practice is influenced by empirical research and the most up to date knowledge. If you are in a program (like MANY PsyD programs) that doesnt have a rigorous (or any) research training in their program, how could they be seen as equal to someone who is well trained in both research and clinical practice when it comes to new interventions and research findings post graduation? I feel like lacking in that research foundation leads up a rocky road to someone who is unable to implement new knowledge of the field into their practice that is from the latest research.
 
I pretty much agree. I'll admit it people... I don't think PsyDs GENERALLY (as in most) are not as well trained or competitive as GENERALLY (MOST) Ph.D. programs. Also, I would like to mention something about class sizes. A class that has 6 students is going to be better educated and have more one on one time with a professor than a class with 30 students. Its as simple as that. I'm just skeptical of the value on which I could place on a PsyD's degree vs that of a PhD. Also, speaking of admission stats... a school that generally accepts people with 3.6 or so vs a school that accepts someone with a 3.0 or a 3.2... How can you say that is on par? I don't get it. Sounds like MA, LCSW, LPC and MFT applicants to me.


Professional schools, whether they are Ph.D. or PsyD aren't generally as good as programs affiliated with universities.

Also, with the whole supply and demand debate, yeah... they opened more schools to let in more people to make a profit? How is this good? Now there is an excess number of psychologists who were previously unable to get into programs due to their unacceptable applications. I would rather there be fewer psychologists that are rigorously trained than too many that aren't trained well enough.

Also, in clinical psychology, practice is influenced by empirical research and the most up to date knowledge. If you are in a program (like MANY PsyD programs) that doesnt have a rigorous (or any) research training in their program, how could they be seen as equal to someone who is well trained in both research and clinical practice when it comes to new interventions and research findings post graduation? I feel like lacking in that research foundation leads up a rocky road to someone who is unable to implement new knowledge of the field into their practice that is from the latest research.

very good points
 
backdooring really?

So lets take my fiance for example. Who spent her entire undergrad career performing research while working on her psych degree. By the time it came around to app to schools, she realized research was not her thing and she wanted to work with families exclusively in a therapy setting. So she goes to a great MFT program and was taught all the skills to do the job effectively.

She graduated w/ honors and a 4.0. 5 national conference presentations, 2 first author publications and 4 second author research projects. Hundreds of hours of clinical work a 1440 GRE and a 750 Psych GRE.

Is she not qualified to do these jobs?

Your argument seems to become invalid when another person also knows someone who is incompetent but got into an MFT program and is working as a therapist.
 
I think what he means is the MA/MS programs are often set up to "cover" doctoral programs, BUT when a program pushes the MA/MS as a "stepping stone" in their doctoral program, that can get squirrelly. The New School has been mentioned a few times for doing this, though I haven't heard it first hand....so don't take that as fact.
 
Also, with the whole supply and demand debate, yeah... they opened more schools to let in more people to make a profit? How is this good? Now there is an excess number of psychologists who were previously unable to get into programs due to their unacceptable applications. I would rather there be fewer psychologists that are rigorously trained than too many that aren't trained well enough.

Trust me, I agree with you that the increase in supply is bad for the field if there is a large variance in the quality of applicants. I've written extensively about how to address the supply v. demand issue, but there is a slim to none chance that my suggestions would ever be put into practice (limit program admission numbers to the average # of APA-acred placements they make over a 3 year period, raise supervision/training requirements so students don't get "farmed out", etc).
 
I pretty much agree. I'll admit it people... I don't think PsyDs GENERALLY (as in most) are not as well trained or competitive as GENERALLY (MOST) Ph.D. programs. Also, I would like to mention something about class sizes. A class that has 6 students is going to be better educated and have more one on one time with a professor than a class with 30 students. Its as simple as that. I'm just skeptical of the value on which I could place on a PsyD's degree vs that of a PhD. Also, speaking of admission stats... a school that generally accepts people with 3.6 or so vs a school that accepts someone with a 3.0 or a 3.2... How can you say that is on par? I don't get it. Sounds like MA, LCSW, LPC and MFT applicants to me.

Are you saying that applicants with a terminal master's degree are somehow less than competitive? Independent of where they apply, it seems that you have a strong bias against those with prior clinical education and training. There are applicants who have gone to terminal master's programs in order to gain experience and boost their overall GPA and are qualified (e.g. have a high GPA) enough to apply to competitive doctoral programs.

I think that your points on the degree mill PsyD programs around the country are absolutely correct...especially how they harm the profession as a whole.

If you want to do research, possibly teach then go get your PhD. If all you really want to do is provide therapy then a masters degree is fine.

I think it is possible to provide therapy with a master's level degree, but...the doctoral degree is superior. And it is superior because of the research training that is involved in learning about mental illness.

Saying that they are not qualified to do the job of a PhD holder is nothing short of an ignorant comment.

A master's level clinician and a psychologist are NOT equal. The latter has more training in the treatment of mental illness. But apart from that, I feel that the mentality and approach they take to assessing and conceptualizing cases is completely different. Sure, there may be exceptions where a master's level clinician may be better than a psychologist, but that is only the exception IMO.

I'm a bit surprised at the dismissive tone I'm sensing toward MA holders from some individuals with doctoral degrees. The fact is that master's level clinicians exist and there are good master's level clinicians. No doubt psychologists are higher in the hierarchy, but I think it's important to recognize the good that MA holders can offer.
 
I agree. . . ABA (behavioral analysts), social workers, MFTs, LPCs all have great roles and lots to offer. But, the scope expansion isn't good for the field, nor are these degrees designed or adequate for practicing independently as psychologists. And, let's face it, that's what they're doing/trying to do.

If you are talking about providing psychotherapy independently, this has been a done deal for a long time. Nearly every state allows the independent practice of clinical social work or counseling by masters level clinicians. Most state licensure laws clearly state that the scope of practice includes the diagnosis and treatment of mental and emotional disorders. This is something psychology should have fought hard against 30 years ago. I know that scope of practice does not equal scope of competence, but I know many very competent masters level clinicians. If psychology had done a better job protecting turf, we would not be fighting about there being too many psychologists today as there is clearly a societal need for psychotherapy and mental health parity is just around the corner.
 
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I agree. . . ABA (behavioral analysts), social workers, MFTs, LPCs all have great roles and lots to offer. But, the scope expansion isn't good for the field, nor are these degrees designed or adequate for practicing independently as psychologists. And, let's face it, that's what they're doing/trying to do.

Agreed; and this is happening, at least in part, because we as a field have done a fairly terrible job of advocating the differences in acquired skills and knowledge between mid-level and doctoral-level practitioners.

Also, as great as the advent of manualized treatment has been for the field, it's also opened up all sorts of new problems--sure, a master's level individual can competently apply the techniques of CBT for depression. Why, then, can they not simply diagnose MDD? And if they can diagnose MDD, why then can they not go on and diagnose the various anxiety disorders, or developmental disorders, or eating disorders, etc.?

What advantage, exactly, does doctoral education provide in the practice of psychology, over and above what is attained en route to a master's degree in the field? This is the main question to which we must provide a clear and coherent response. Then, after providing said response, we must go about widely disseminating and supporting it.
 
I know that scope of practice does not equal scope of competence....

This is my biggest issue. With the loose wording of most state laws, non-doctoral practitioners are taking advantage of their "scope of practice" and expanding into areas that aren't remotely in an area of competency. I am sure it happens at the doctoral level too, but it seem rampant at the MA/MS level:

  • Addiction counselors doing therapy (outside of sub abuse....which is not surprising considering the co-morbidity rates out there)
  • Differential diagnosis.....how?
  • Most everything in Health Psychology
  • Pastoral counseling that pushes over to therapy
  • Assessment....of pretty much anything.
I don't mean to pick on non-doctoral practitioners, but just scrolling through the local directories on Psychology Today is down right scary.
 
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If you look at that list, another scary trend is that many master's -level folks are obtaining mail order PhDs so they can be called "doctor"
 
If you look at that list, another scary trend is that many master's -level folks are obtaining mail order PhDs so they can be called "doctor"

Licensed at the Master's level since many cannot be licensed at the doctoral level....talk about possible confusion to the patient.

As an aside, I work with (and have worked with) many great non-doctoral therapists/clinicians, and I have the utmost respect for them. They practice ethically and within their scope. My frustration is directed towards those practitioners who practice outside of their scope, use interventions that are not supported by the research, and mislead their patients in regard to their areas of expertise.
 
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As a social worker- I have similar arguments made about "degree mills" and the cost they have on the employment market... What I have observed is that this "flooding of the market" several people have discussed is highly specific to certain regions of the country... There is desperate need for mental health professionals in rural and impoverished areas...So I guess if you are concerned about not finding a job you might consider expanding your search... just a thought.
 
To comment on those nurses and the phD lady

The nurses are suing bc they didn't recieve adequate education and thus cannot find jobs. There peds rotation consisted of a daycare and tehy never stepped foot in the hospital. I mean really? shouldnt that raise flags with you if your training to be a nurse and you go to a daycare to learn of children? NO offencse but it's no wonder these people were at these colleges and not a legitimate nursing school

To the phD lady - again REALLY?? You weren't concerned that your program was not APA accredited? Like come on? it didn't dawn on you to call the APA and inquire as to whether your school was on the right track to gaining APA?

I understand that these schools can be a scam, but this is a free country, and those who go there are not forced - albeit maybe coerced - to go to these instituitions - it is there choice ultimatly, and they should take responsibility for there poor decisions, not blame others
 
I understand that these schools can be a scam, but this is a free country, and those who go there are not forced - albeit maybe coerced - to go to these instituitions - it is there choice ultimatly, and they should take responsibility for there poor decisions, not blame others

Well there are consumer protection laws and false advertising laws that are designed to protect people from being ripped off. I agree that people who do stupid things need to take some personal responsibility for their actions, but that doesn't mean that people who seek to prey on them shouldn't be punished.

Note that I'm not necessarily saying that professional schools should be sued or that anyone going to one is stupid. I'm just objecting to the idea that it's ok for an organization to be dishonest as long as they are only targeting people you view to be stupid.
 
I think that it's bad enough that PsyDs are being churned out left and right, but now I've seen some Ph.D.s being churned out in the same fashion. I think that a lot of these institutions are truly flooding the market with under-qualified people.

Really, which ones are producing under-qualified people, and what are you basing that on?

Provide some data to back up your point, because without any evidence to back your position, you're just parroting what someone else told you.

Believe me, I am no champion of professional programs, but take some responsibility and at least specify in what way they are under-qualified or more appropriately inadequately trained.

But with the market being flooded with so many psychologists who vary greatly in their abilities and education, we are being underpaid to fill the shoes of other professionals. I think there should be better regulations and standards out there to differentiate between different providers. I think that because the APA isn't doing the best for lobbying our profession, many of us are forced to take jobs that are low paying and could be serviced by LPCs or LCSWs.

No one is forcing us to take ANY job. If you want to criticize the APA, that's cool, how would you fix the problem? Do you think it's only a lobbying problem?

It appears that you are suggesting that the problem is that the abilities of the professionals graduating these programs and education offered enjoy too much diversity... what would you do to eliminate that, and do you believe that would be healthy for the profession?

I don't think ALL PsyD programs are necessarily bad, but LOTS are truly just degree mills.

Define lots, and if you are suggesting that APA accredited programs are, in fact, degree mills: Then how are you defining degree mill? Because it seems that many of those who attend these schools do, in fact, pass the EPPP and get licensed.

If they weren't putting out so many people who just pay for a degree, I think we would be in a better position as qualified psychologists. In all reality, not everyone should be able to be a Clinical Psychologist. If you aren't able to get into a qualified Ph.D. program, then paying for your degree shouldn't be a last resort, and unfortunately that is the situation that has caused a flooding in the market.

So who is the ultimate arbiter of the minimum requirements to be eligible for a degree in psychology? Is there a minimum IQ score or perhaps it's some other criterion that makes someone suitable for psychology? Is the GRE and an undergraduate GPA sufficient screening to determine suitability for a career in psychology, or should we be looking to give MMPI's and PAI's to all potential psychologists prior to admission?

Interesting discussion...

Mark
 
Whats with the jab against MSW, LPC and MFT? You do realize some of those programs are extremely hard to get into right? And that some highly qualified ppl have no desire to get a doctorate?

People wrongly assume so much about those programs.

I agree. I was offered admission into a handful of PhD programs, but I chose a highly ranked Masters program instead. It fit better with my life goals. That decision may sound insane to those who want a PhD, but I don't regret it at all.
 
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I agree. I was offered admission into a handful of PhD programs, but I chose a highly ranked Masters program instead. It fit better with my life goals. That decision may sound insane to those who want a PhD, but I don't regret it at all.


You shouldn't... believe me, there are days that I've woken up and said, "what are you doing?!?" In the end though, I made the right decision, and that's all you can do for yourself as well.

Good luck! You'll be done a lot sooner than the rest of us!

Mark
 
The most important thing that I took away from the Frontline is that the student loan situation right now is EXACTLY THE SAME AS THE HOUSING BUBBLE SITUATION we're picking up the pieces from now.

To me, taking out student loans for a masters or PsyD, while knowing that psychologist salaries have dropped, is akin to taking out a $500,000 mortgage a few years ago when you know you can't pay it off.

I don't understand how anyone could watch that Frontline, do a little research of their own, and still think that it's smart to take out a bunch of loans. I know we all have to make choices to fit our lives and wants, but seriously.

We all want to live our dreams, but a little fiscal forethought would likely be of great benefit.
 
The most important thing that I took away from the Frontline is that the student loan situation right now is EXACTLY THE SAME AS THE HOUSING BUBBLE SITUATION we're picking up the pieces from now.

That is an excellent anology. People get caught up in the hype, which is a purposeful outcome sought by the banks/schools. Prospective home owners enter a bank wanting to take out a $250k 30-yr fixed rate loan because they crunched the numbers, and after they are sold by the hype, they leave the bank with a $500k 5-yr ARM with a teaser rate and a world of hurt coming for that 6th year.

Student loans are around 7%...which can really add up, and all of those teaser rates the banks offered came with costly adjustments (interest rate, jumbo payment, etc). I know when I was considering programs I had to figure out what amount of debt I would consider acceptable (undergraduate + graduate). Even fully-funded students can acquire debt, particularly those in high cost of living areas.

Keep in mind that most people under-estimate how much education + housing + etc costs, so add 10-20% to the number you think it will cost. Take that new number and put it in a loan calculator and project out total cost over 10, 15, and 30 years....THEN use that number in your considerations for graduate school.

As for the non-APA choice...that was just a bad idea from the get-go. Nothing is final until the ink is dry, and while I feel bad for those students in Dallas, it was a risk they took and lost.

To bring it back to the practices of for-profit instituions....they can be unethical. "Finding the pain" is definitely coercive. The for-profit goals are almost counter to that of traditional education, and the state of the profession is suffering because of it.
 
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That's the thing with for-profit schools. Until I watched that, I always thought "Well, at least the student is paying for them out of their own pocket." No, apparently they aren't because over 50% are just defaulting on their loans. So, really we're paying for them.
 
That's the thing with for-profit schools. Until I watched that, I always thought "Well, at least the student is paying for them out of their own pocket." No, apparently they aren't because over 50% are just defaulting on their loans. So, really we're paying for them.


Yes, I think that's the dirty little secret of this whole thing... It's obvious that for those who have a desire to secure profit without caring about outcomes have an opportunity to fleece the government of thousands of dollars. However that's like killing the golden goose. Regional accreditation has even been given a price tag, $10 million dollars is what the accreditation is worth, and once that status is purchased you basically have purchased a license to print money.

Even assuming that the education is a good product, worthy of paying for, the college has no interest in graduating students, as a matter of fact that does not play into their business model beyond having another marketing tool. If (as DeVry has claimed, (Kim, 2007) http://digitallibrary.usc.edu/assetserver/controller/item/etd-Kim-20070808.pdf ) graduates find a job within 6 months of graduation, then DeVry will leverage that to increase profits, however given the number of defaults among these schools is much higher than traditional universities (DOE, 2010 http://www2.ed.gov/offices/OSFAP/defaultmanagement/cdr.html) cash flow is king as long as it doesn't endanger their ability to generate cash. For example ITT, DeVry, and University of Phoenix had default rates in excess of 9%, where as the same Harvard cohort was at 0.4% and University of Texas - Austin 2.7%. Even commuter schools like University of Texas - San Antonio have better rates, with the professional schools having more than 50% more defaults and for a LOT more money.

Actually, counter to what Cara said, if a school has a greater than 40% default rate, they lose their government loan privileges (aka their license to print money.) You can be sure that as long as they are not coming close to this number, graduating students isn't the highest priority. However student success can be a profitable outcome, as long as student success is a profitable outcome, these universities will support that outcome. After all, this is about profit first.

Mark
 
Barmak Nassirian (sp?) said though that those are the official rates, which only count if the defaults occur within a very specific time frame. He estimates that the real numbers are much higher.
 
Barmak Nassirian (sp?) said though that those are the official rates, which only count if the defaults occur within a very specific time frame. He estimates that the real numbers are much higher.

True, but we have to select a metric of some sort to use, as the official numbers are documented, that's the best evidence we have available. I agree the real numbers of actual defaults are probably much higher. Perhaps what needs to change is the metric that is being used. Although, we'll just bail this ineffective system out like every other system. Now that .gov has taken over the entire student loan market (save one little lender exempted in a sweetheart congressional deal to buy health care votes) we can expect the brunt of the cost of student loans to be placed squarely on the back of the American tax payer and that the cost of providing these loans to rise dramatically. Being that .gov will be the only game in town you won't be able to take your business elsewhere, and fortunately all the dishonest fraudsters will close up shop and go to rip off the gullible private sector another way rather than mess with government guaranteed loans.... ummm ya... Medicare anyone?

Mark
 
True, but we have to select a metric of some sort to use, as the official numbers are documented, that's the best evidence we have available. I agree the real numbers of actual defaults are probably much higher. Perhaps what needs to change is the metric that is being used. Although, we'll just bail this ineffective system out like every other system. Now that .gov has taken over the entire student loan market (save one little lender exempted in a sweetheart congressional deal to buy health care votes) we can expect the brunt of the cost of student loans to be placed squarely on the back of the American tax payer and that the cost of providing these loans to rise dramatically. Being that .gov will be the only game in town you won't be able to take your business elsewhere, and fortunately all the dishonest fraudsters will close up shop and go to rip off the gullible private sector another way rather than mess with government guaranteed loans.... ummm ya... Medicare anyone?

Mark

Would you elaborate a bit? To my eyes it looks like you're sounding the alarm about the "bubble" and the government plan while also predicting that this sector will right itself?
 
Would you elaborate a bit? To my eyes it looks like you're sounding the alarm about the "bubble" and the government plan while also predicting that this sector will right itself?

To be honest, I am not sure where we'll end up, but I think the road that we're on looks like it's going be a little bumpy. I am certainly concerned that things don't look pretty and I normally am cautious when we resort to sole source solutions, even when it is the federal government.

I am cautious and yet, yes, I am still optimistic that the system is self-correcting enough to withstand an awful lot. The two models of education both share quite a lot, and at the same time are very dissimilar. The fact remains that most education in this country is tax payer subsidized at some level. Question is, which system is more effective and efficient at delivering education? That I don't pretend to know the answer to, but I do see actions that concern me when it comes to private individuals milking government programs.

Mark
 
Sooo, possible solutions to these schools? Or they here to stay? At the very least, cutting off federal loans for their students would be nice...
 
Hey, it's me again. The Fielding student. I'm sorry that my schedule hasn't afforded me the time you folks seem to have to hang out on this "wanna-be" Dr. chatter board," but some of us actually work with patients, publish articles and strive to advance the field. So, forgive me for not being able to designate much time to what I like to call the "chatter of fools."

Why are you on here? To discuss psychology, perhaps like Freud and his colleagues did in their Wednesdy gatherings in the late 19th century. Or, do you do it to placate your deepest, most personal fears and insecurities. I would suggest, no, not suggest, STATE, that the latter is true for a great many of you. (NOT all of you; by the time I am done, you will know who I mean).

What a joke, I have looked at comments made by the same few of you over the last several years, and it most certainly evidences my hypothesis. You trash this school and that school, or this degree or that degree, and you never, ever say where you go to school. Moreover, some of you write precisely the same thing, every time you "get up to bat," whether the issue is "bash a PsyD program" or "make myself feel better about myself feel better by degrading Fielding, yes, my school. In one case, an esteemed "two year- senior member," who apparently has a "following" or "fan base," states over and over "not everyone has the right to be called a psychologist". How axiomatic, not! Who are you? Who gave you permission to proclaim rights for anyone other than yourself? Who are you kidding, yourself? I suggest you, and several others like you, are insecure, paranoid and belong in a differnet school of higher learning - they call it High School. Moreover, what clinical psychology programs are you in, what pubs have you authored recently? OH, that's right, this fourm is your publisher.

I am sure there are several of you out there who would agree with my critique. Don't be spineless. Like all egotists, these wannabes simply regurgitate the same, baseless information time and time again. I would like to make a recommendation to the one's of you I've exposed in my post. Figure out what is eating you!! You know what I mean, stuff like being teased in high school because you were losers, or not having the ability to stand up for yourselves and discover your own beliefs, or the even darker aspects of your personalities that engages your crowd mentality and deep selfishness which yields deep immaturity. "Come on, let's all throw rocks and hide behind Mr. John O. Therapist. Do you like that name? I have taken the liberty to take two or three profile names, and turn them into one antogonist name that represents the top two or three biggest wannabes on the board.

In the final analysis, the fact that clinical psychology is merely a soft science that will never make anyone rich, on its own, remains. The individuals who will succeed are the same people who have succeeded all their lives. I am talking about applying innate skills, such as character, passion, creativity and ingenuity and the ability to write. You know, the kinds of students that attend Fielding (which has an acceptance rate of somewhere around 18%, DOES not market or advertise for its clinical psychology program, that is NOT-for-Profit, AND, that has created and built the first media psychology program anywhere in the world, which has turned into a joint endavor with USC - LA. And, it's not going away.

Also, I must share one more piece of information with you. The APA looks to Fielding to offer respecialization programs for those who have PhD degrees in another disciplines of psychology, and put them through a respecialization program that lasts 3 years. Not only is it highly sought after by professionals from around the globe, but it allows students who who work toward their first PhD to learn, intreact and study with an excellent mixture of students. In my cluster: here is where master's degrees were earned: Oxford, Columbia, Bucknell Universtiy, Dickinson College, University of Michigan (PhD in Evolutionary Psychology), Case Western Universtiy, Williams, and Swarthmore. This is a very typical cross-section of our students.

Next time, not sure when, I will finally explain the reasons why Fielding has not done well in the Match for internships. To give you a hint, Fielding didn't require it before this year. Remember, Fielding students are, on average 43 years old. So, we either have our own practices, or know others that do, or create our own internship modlels. Moroever, most Fielding students go to Fielding for a reason; they are bound to a geographical location. As a result, they chose not to compete in the Match. This year the rules have changed. So, look out, you will be working with us, and for us, at some point to boot.

MFP :thumbup::):luck::eek: YOU!
 
Hey, it's me again. The Fielding student.
What a joke, I have looked at comments made by the same few of you over the last several years, and it most certainly evidences my hypothesis. You trash this school and that school, or this degree or that degree, and you never, ever say where you go to school. Moreover, some of you write precisely the same thing, every time you "get up to bat," whether the issue is "bash a PsyD program" or "make myself feel better about myself feel better by degrading Fielding, yes, my school. In one case, an esteemed "two year- senior member," who apparently has a "following" or "fan base," states over and over "not everyone has the right to be called a psychologist". How axiomatic, not! Who are you? Who gave you permission to proclaim rights for anyone other than yourself? Who are you kidding, yourself? I suggest you, and several others like you, are insecure, paranoid and belong in a differnet school of higher learning - they call it High School. Moreover, what clinical psychology programs are you in, what pubs have you authored recently? OH, that's right, this fourm is your publisher.


MFP :thumbup::):luck::eek: YOU!




Even if I found your argument compelling, the fact that it's incredibly hypocritical makes it worthless.

Using the "I'm better than you" argument will not win you (or Fielding) many followers.
 
Sooo, possible solutions to these schools? Or they here to stay? At the very least, cutting off federal loans for their students would be nice...

Yeah, I think that in order to deal with the major issue here, which seems to be supply/demand, we have to cut off the excess supply. If students going to schools that are charging high tuition, etc. etc. can't get federal loans, maybe that will help.

Maybe no federal loans to schools without APA-accred?

(I can feel apppsy yelling, "then how will any schools get APA-accred???")

Well, maybe they'll have to fund students until then?
 
Hey, it's me again. The Fielding student. I'm sorry that my schedule hasn't afforded me the time you folks seem to have to hang out on this "wanna-be" Dr. chatter board," but some of us actually work with patients, publish articles and strive to advance the field. So, forgive me for not being able to designate much time to what I like to call the "chatter of fools."

Why are you on here? To discuss psychology, perhaps like Freud and his colleagues did in their Wednesdy gatherings in the late 19th century. Or, do you do it to placate your deepest, most personal fears and insecurities. I would suggest, no, not suggest, STATE, that the latter is true for a great many of you. (NOT all of you; by the time I am done, you will know who I mean).

What a joke, I have looked at comments made by the same few of you over the last several years, and it most certainly evidences my hypothesis. You trash this school and that school, or this degree or that degree, and you never, ever say where you go to school. Moreover, some of you write precisely the same thing, every time you "get up to bat," whether the issue is "bash a PsyD program" or "make myself feel better about myself feel better by degrading Fielding, yes, my school. In one case, an esteemed "two year- senior member," who apparently has a "following" or "fan base," states over and over "not everyone has the right to be called a psychologist". How axiomatic, not! Who are you? Who gave you permission to proclaim rights for anyone other than yourself? Who are you kidding, yourself? I suggest you, and several others like you, are insecure, paranoid and belong in a differnet school of higher learning - they call it High School. Moreover, what clinical psychology programs are you in, what pubs have you authored recently? OH, that's right, this fourm is your publisher.

I am sure there are several of you out there who would agree with my critique. Don't be spineless. Like all egotists, these wannabes simply regurgitate the same, baseless information time and time again. I would like to make a recommendation to the one's of you I've exposed in my post. Figure out what is eating you!! You know what I mean, stuff like being teased in high school because you were losers, or not having the ability to stand up for yourselves and discover your own beliefs, or the even darker aspects of your personalities that engages your crowd mentality and deep selfishness which yields deep immaturity. "Come on, let's all throw rocks and hide behind Mr. John O. Therapist. Do you like that name? I have taken the liberty to take two or three profile names, and turn them into one antogonist name that represents the top two or three biggest wannabes on the board.

In the final analysis, the fact that clinical psychology is merely a soft science that will never make anyone rich, on its own, remains. The individuals who will succeed are the same people who have succeeded all their lives. I am talking about applying innate skills, such as character, passion, creativity and ingenuity and the ability to write. You know, the kinds of students that attend Fielding (which has an acceptance rate of somewhere around 18%, DOES not market or advertise for its clinical psychology program, that is NOT-for-Profit, AND, that has created and built the first media psychology program anywhere in the world, which has turned into a joint endavor with USC - LA. And, it's not going away.

Also, I must share one more piece of information with you. The APA looks to Fielding to offer respecialization programs for those who have PhD degrees in another disciplines of psychology, and put them through a respecialization program that lasts 3 years. Not only is it highly sought after by professionals from around the globe, but it allows students who who work toward their first PhD to learn, intreact and study with an excellent mixture of students. In my cluster: here is where master's degrees were earned: Oxford, Columbia, Bucknell Universtiy, Dickinson College, University of Michigan (PhD in Evolutionary Psychology), Case Western Universtiy, Williams, and Swarthmore. This is a very typical cross-section of our students.

Next time, not sure when, I will finally explain the reasons why Fielding has not done well in the Match for internships. To give you a hint, Fielding didn't require it before this year. Remember, Fielding students are, on average 43 years old. So, we either have our own practices, or know others that do, or create our own internship modlels. Moroever, most Fielding students go to Fielding for a reason; they are bound to a geographical location. As a result, they chose not to compete in the Match. This year the rules have changed. So, look out, you will be working with us, and for us, at some point to boot.

MFP :thumbup::):luck::eek: YOU!

bar none the most hilarious post I have ever read on SDN
 
Yeah, I think that in order to deal with the major issue here, which seems to be supply/demand, we have to cut off the excess supply. If students going to schools that are charging high tuition, etc. etc. can't get federal loans, maybe that will help.

Maybe no federal loans to schools without APA-accred?

(I can feel apppsy yelling, "then how will any schools get APA-accred???")

Well, maybe they'll have to fund students until then?

fund them with what money? I'm not being snippy, just ignorant.
 
Snow, you were right about the Troll. Not that I disagree with everything he wrote. Heck, if 3 out of every 4 Fielding students drop out as the data says, the ones that remain are probably pretty good. But Mr. Fritz's goal appears to be venting by poking people with a stick more than anything.


This is your diagnosis? Criticism = a defense mechanism? I can see that's a reasonable hypothesis. It's been proffered a few times on here. I don't agree (clearly). My motivations (at least on this issue) are a) discuss betterment of the field and b) help inform students of different perspectives on critical issues in the field. Now, if I were to guess the motivations for your post:

- indignation due to what you perceive to be attacks on your decision (attending Fielding), which you have interpreted as a personal attack. So, you've decided to attack the messenger(s). Okay, I get it. Fire away.



Okay, so here's your first piece of evidence. You think anonymity is unimportant? This is a public forum. Why would I, or anyone else, identify their school? Especially, at programs that don't admit 100s per cohort. And, by the way, one of us (if I'm reading your implication correctly) has identified their school. I don't agree that this piece of evidence supports your hypothesis.

"some of you write precisely the same thing, every time you "get up to bat," whether the issue is "bash a PsyD program" or "make myself feel better about myself feel better by degrading Fielding, yes, my school. In one case, an esteemed "wo year- senior member," who apparently has a "following" or "fan base," states over and over "not everyone has the right to be called a psychologist". "

The same issues come up over and over again, yes? There's always a new influx of students, yes? So, repetition should be expected, yes? Do you disagree with the last statement?




Okay, so you've stated two indicators for your argument so far.

1) anonymity (repeated several times)
2) repetition (ironic, given 1)



You haven't presented any arguments against any of the information presented by the egotists. edit: I take that back. You present that some of Fielding's students attended good schools (other than Fielding) and asserted that we'll all work for you. I agree with the former, I'm sure some smart people choose, for whatever reason, to attend Fielding. But, that doesn't really address any of the unnamed baseless information you seem to be upset about.



So, they prey on those that are in the prime earning years of their career?
 
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