Perineural Adjuvants for Single Shot Nerve Blocks

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BLADEMDA

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Any of you trying something new for your single shot blocks?

Have you switched to IV Dexamethasone from Perineural? If so, are you using 0.1 mg/kg IV or 8 mg IV or 10 mg Iv?

Anyone using Precedex since it has a better safety profile than Dexamethasone via the perineural route?

How about Exparel? I've seen a few studies where the blocks last 48-72 hours utilizing Exparel. I've performed Adductor Canal blocks with Exparel and the analgesia was over 48 hours.

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I have used Perineural Dexamethasone in 1 mg and 2 mg dosages. The 2 mg dosage in 20 mls works fine with prolongation of the block to around 22-24 hours. I've had mixed results with the 1 mg dosage. Perhaps, I should just switch to IV decadron prior to the block and delete the perineural decadron?

What about Precedex? Perhaps, a combination of IV Decadron (8 mg) with Perineural Precedex (0.5 ug/kg) would be great for getting 24+ hours of postop pain relief?


http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/decadron-iv-prolongs-nerve-blocks.1121811/#post-16202624
 
I've been using 7 ml of 0.25% bupi with 2mg of decadron pf for adductor canals and I've been getting ~ 30 hours as opposed to 18-20 without it... Seems like it's pretty safe given the fact that it's a sensory block. So seems worth it to me.
 
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I've been using 7 ml of 0.25% bupi with 2mg of decadron pf for adductor canals and I've been getting ~ 30 hours as opposed to 18-20 without it... Seems like it's pretty safe given the fact that it's a sensory block. So seems worth it to me.


Yes. For sensory blocks the decadron makes sense. But, what about Interscalene, ICB, SCB, popliteal, etc? Decadron is neurotoxic at higher doses and I'd be wary of exceeding 1-2 mg per 20 mls of local. In fact, the "studies" by Williams et al out of UPMC recommends no more than 1.3 mg per 20 mls of local (66 ug/ml). I can tell you that in a large, healthy young patient 1.3 mg won't reliably prolong your block when diluted with 20 mls of local.

Hence, the question remains whether to switch to IV Decadron combined with perineural precedex which has a very high safety profile.
 
I should elaborate that there was a study which suggested/showed that Perineural PF Decadron doses in the 1-2 mg range prolongs postop analgesia when mixed with the local. I agree with the 2 mg dosage but when I've used the 1 mg dosage of decadron mixed with the local I have seen mixed results. Since Williams et al out of UPMC are stating dosages of decadron greater than 66 ug/ml may not be safe (rat studies only and the nerve was bathed in it for 24 hours) I am reluctant to use more than their recommendation.

So, I've turned to IV decadron combined with Precedex where the safety data is clearly on my side. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18719449

Any opinions on this matter? For those continuing to use 4 mg or even 8 mg of decadron perineural are you concerned about malpractice risks? Again, the safety data just isn't there at those dosages especially dosages over 4 mg.
 
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"We were unable to detect an association between perineural dexamethasone dose and effect size on the evaluated outcomes using metaregression analysis. It is possible that lower doses of dexamethasone may provide similar results on postoperative analgesia outcomes as the most commonly used 8 mg dexamethasone dose. In fact, a recent study suggested that even lower doses such as 1 mg may provide similar results on analgesia duration as greater dexamethasone doses [49].

We did not detect significant long lasting nerve complications that could be attributed to the use of perineural dexamethasone in our study population. One study reported one case of hypoesthesia in the dexamethasone group but the subject also had spinal disc herniation at the level of C4-5 which could have explained the symptoms [37]. Another study reported an increased but not statistically significant difference in the incidence of numbness and tingling in the dexamethasone group fourteen days after surgery. Since basic science studies have suggested the possibility of nerve toxicity by different perineural adjuncts, it is important that future studies provide longer follow-up evaluations of the included subjects [5052].

It is also important to note that two recent studies have demonstrated similar benefits on analgesic duration of systemic compared to perineural dexamethasone for upper and lower extremity blocks [35, 37]. A potential advantage of perineural dexamethasone is the avoidance of undesirable side effects associated with the use of systemic dexamethasone [5356]. Future studies evaluating the use of perineural dexamethasone on analgesia outcomes would benefit from the inclusion of a comparison group to evaluate the systemic dexamethasone administration."

http://www.hindawi.com/journals/prt/2014/179029/
 
Several new studies are coming out and have come out which show that there is no clinically significant prolongation in analgesia with the use of liposomal bupivacaine versus conventional bupivacaine. I think it is unnecessary.
 
"In models of central nervous system ischemia, a-2 adrenoceptor agonists are neuroprotective, whereas clonidine was shown to decrease the response to nerve injury in animal models.15 As nerve injury is rare and likely secondary to needle trauma, no clinical trial has reported neurotoxicity; given the small sample size, it would require roughly 16,000 patients to show a doubling of the baseline complication rate of 0.4%.22 In animal models, Williams et al showed that ropivacaine was neurotoxic to sensory neurons, whereas high concentrations of adjuvants alone, including buprenorphine, clonidine, and dexamethasone, were significantly less toxic.

Additionally, buprenorphine and clonidine appear safe at estimated clinical concentrations when used in combination with ropivacaine, whereas dexamethasone may have a dose–related neurotoxicity, suggesting the lowest possible dose (1-2 mg per nerve block) should be used.29"

http://www.anesthesiologynews.com/V...cine&d_id=2&i=March+2015&i_id=1156&a_id=29654
 
Several new studies are coming out and have come out which show that there is no clinically significant prolongation in analgesia with the use of liposomal bupivacaine versus conventional bupivacaine. I think it is unnecessary.


I disagree with your "opinion" and there were several abstracts at the ASRA 2015 meeting which showed Exparel did prolong analgesia well beyond 24 hours.
My experience utilizing Exparel (N=1,000) is that Exparel provides reliable postop pain relief in the 40 hour range when diluted and 48+ hours when undiluted.

Now, we can disagree on whether the Exparel is worth $280-$300 per vial over a $2.60 bottle of Bupivacaine but there is a clear difference in duration.
 
ABSTRACT; ASRA 2015

Efficacy of Adductor Canal with Liposomal Bupivacaine on Postoperative Pain Control in Patients Undergoing Total Knee Arthroplasty: A Retrospective Study
INTRODUCTION
METHODS
RESULTS
DISCUSSION The improved pain in the PACU suggests that a preoperative adductor canal block provides early postoperative benefit to the intraarticular injection alone. With no difference in max pain at 0-24 hours but a significant decrease at 24-48 and 49-72 hours this study shows that the adductor canal with liposomal bupivacaine (off-label) provided extended pain control beyond the duration of the intraarticular injection. These findings also suggest that the addition of an adductor canal block with liposomal bupivacaine to an intraarticular injection leads to decreased total opioid use and decreased length of stay when compared to intraarticular injection alone. A decrease in length of stay by 13.37 hours would result in a cost savings of $529.22 at our institution.

Further prospective randomized trials are needed to verify these results.
Jacob Hutchins MD1, Nicholas Peterson MS1. University of Minnesota, Minneapolis, MN - Department of Anesthesiology1
 
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And there are several abstracts, RCTs, and observational studies that show it does not prolong analgesia. What's your point? I haven't been able to deduce any significant flaws in methodology between any of these studies either (both for the pro and con studies). Have you?

As I said, I think it is unnecessary at this point, and the data is not compelling enough for me to justify its use.
 
Abstract, ASRA 2015


Interscalene block with liposomal bupivacaine for postoperative pain control after shoulder surgery: A retrospective study

RESULTS Although retrospective in nature this study shows the potential benefits of decreased postoperative opioids and increased duration of analgesia with liposomal bupivacaine compared to the standard bupivacaine or ropivacaine in shoulder surgery. This remains an off label use for liposomal bupivacaine and as such future prospective randomized blinded trials are need to assess efficacy and safety. References: 1.  Chahar P, Cummings KC. Liposomal bupivacaine: a review of a new bupivacaine formulation. Journal of Pain research. 2012;5:257-264. 2.  Gorfine SR, Onel E, Patou G, Krivokapic ZV. Bupivacaine extended-release liposome injection for prolonged postsurgical analgesia in patients undergoing hemorrhoidectomy: A multicenter, randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled trial. Dis Colon Rectum. 2011;54:1552-1559.

Jacob Hutchins, MD1, Mikhail Klimstra2, Alicia Harrison MD2. University of Minnesota, Minneapolis, MN. - Department of Anesthesiology1, Department of Orthopedic Surgery2

Interscalene blocks are commonly used as an adjunct for postoperative pain control in shoulder surgery. They are effective as a single-shot block or continuous infusion via catheter. However, single-shot blocks are limited by their short duration of action (often wearing off in the middle of the night) and catheters require closer monitoring, have risk of dislodgement, and are contraindicated in certain populations. Liposomal bupivacaine has been shown to provide analgesia and decreased opioid usage up to 72 hours after infiltration into the surgical plane 1, 2 but since it is off-label has not been evaluated in peripheral nerve blocks. We present a retrospective study of off-label use of liposomal bupivacaine in a single-shot interscalene block compared to bupivacaine or ropivacaine single-shot.
This was a University of Minnesota IRB approved study. It was a retrospective age and case matched study of 30 patients. Those with chronic pain or on chronic opioids for greater than 3 weeks prior to surgery were excluded. 15 patients received an interscalene block with varying dosages (15-40 mL) of either 0.5% bupivacaine with epinephrine 1:200,000 or 0.5% ropivacaine, 25 mcg/mL of clonidine and 1:400,000 epinephrine. This was compared to 15 patients who received 10 mL 0.5% bupivacaine with epinephrine 1:200,000 followed by 10 mL of liposomal bupivacaine. All were ultrasound guided blocks. All patients received general anesthesia. The primary objective was total opioids use in the first 72 hours after surgery. Follow up was performed by either ward nurses or one of 2 pain nurse practitioners.
 
And there are several abstracts, RCTs, and observational studies that show it does not prolong analgesia. What's your point? I haven't been able to deduce any significant flaws in methodology between any of these studies either (both for the pro and con studies). Have you?

As I said, I think it is unnecessary at this point, and the data is not compelling enough for me to justify its use.


Have you yourself utilized Exparel? What's your "N" with the drug? Like I have said studies are pretty worthless unless they actually agree with real world findings.

I've utilized Exparel and even with all the cocktails/adjuvants added to Bupivacaine the Exparel provides longer lasting postop pain relief. But, is it worth the $280-$300 price tag? That's where we can agree to disagree.
 
ASRA 2015 Abstract


Comparison of epidural analgesia with bilateral dual transversus abdominis plane infiltration block with liposomal bupivacaine in patients with major open abdominal surgery

Thomas A Nicholas MD, Kosta V Turchaninov MD, PhD,Tyler A Ptacek MD Department of Anesthesiology, University of Nebraska Medical Center, Omaha, NE 68198


Epidural analgesia (EA) has traditionally been regarded as the gold standard for post-operative pain control in major abdominal surgeries. However, this idea has been challenged especially in an era of older and sicker patients requiring increased thromboembolic prophylaxis. Recent studies have questioned whether less invasive regional techniques provide similar pain control with less side effects and risk1-4. This study intends to examine this rational by comparing a lower risk procedure, transversus abdominis plane (TAP) block with liposomal bupivacaine (LB) to EA in major open abdominal surgery.


MATERIALS AND METHODS
Study design. This was an IRB approved prospective randomized study. The epidural or infiltrative TAP block was placed preoperatively by an anesthesiologist trained in both techniques. Thoracic epidurals were placed between the levels of T5-T10. Initially, all patients received a standard epidural solution of 0.05% bupivacaine with hydromorphone 10 mcg/ml. Intraoperative management of the epidural was achieved at the discretion of the primary anesthesiologist. Epidural solution, rate, and bolus dosing were titrated to maximize patient pain control. Epidurals were interrogated to assess level and function in the PACU. Ultrasound-guided bilateral dual (lateral and subcostal approach) TAP blocks were performed based upon Børglum’s technique2. LB 266mg diluted in 40 ml of saline per patient. All TAP patients received post operative I.V. narcotics such as a hydromorphone I.V. PCAs In both groups, the patients underwent general anesthesia in a standard fashion.

Patient selection. Subjects 19 years of age and older undergoing major abdominal surgery at UNMC were included and randomized to either TAP block or EA prior to their abdominal surgery. Exclusion criteria included: chronic opioid use, pregnancy, any existence of contraindication to regional anesthesia, or weight less than 50 kilograms.

Outcome measures. Following surgery, subjects were monitored for up to 96 hours. Pain assessments based on a numeric rating scale were started in the PACU and again at 4, 12, 24, 36, 48, 72 and 96 hours after surgery. Daily intravenous fluids, time to ambulation, hypotension, pruritus, nausea/vomiting, length of hospital stay, any major adverse cardiac or respiratory events, or neurologic complications were recorded during the first 96 hours. Total daily opioid requirements were also recorded for the first 96 hours. All daily patient opioid intake including oral, intravenous, and epidural routes were converted to intravenous morphine equivalents using standard equianalgesic tables. A epidural:intravenous ratio of 1:1 was used prior to table conversion for epidural opoids.

Statistical analysis. Descriptive statistics were used to summarize the distributions of the enrolled patients. Fisher’s exact test was used to compare categorical variables between the two groups. The Mann-Whitney test was used to compare the distribution of continuous variables between the two groups [Note: The Mann-Whitney test compares the medians and is appropriate for data where the sample sizes are very small and not normally distributed]. P<0.05 was considered statistically significant. 47 patients were enrolled (21 EA; 26 TAP). 11 patients were withdrawn. Presented analysis is based on 36 patients (17 EA; 19 TAP).


Our preliminary findings reveal that TAP blocks with LB have statistically significant higher pain scores at the 24 and 48 hour time points. Yet, there was no other time points with statistical significance. The early elevated pain scores may represent the biphasic release of lipospheric bupivacaine. However, one may construe that these elevated pain scores are not clinically significant when considering the raw median pain scores. As well, it is likely that this study is underpowered to accurately identify statistical significance in pain scores. Total narcotic consumption was significantly higher (p-value=0.025) for the TAP group in the first 24 hours. Daily opioid requirements between both groups had no significant differences after 24 hrs. Our determination of epidural opioid equivalence maybe contentious. We did not utilize a epidural:intravenous ratio of 10:1 which has been suggested in literature5,6. If we had utilized this generally accepted but unvalidated ratio then our findings would likely increase the morphine equivalences in the epidural group. Our analysis of morphine equivalence was intended to spur discussion rather than reveal true statistical accuracy especially in these post-operative patients who were receiving a combination of epidural and I.V. analgesia which was not fully restricted by study parameters. We felt this was more reflective of a true post-operative pain protocol which is tailored to the individual patient. One patient did develop an epidural hematoma requiring emergent decompression and resulted in permanent paraplegia. There were no other statistically significant differences found in other categorical variables such as nausea/vomiting, sedation, pruritus, urinary retention, I.V. fluid intake, blood transfusion, or other major complications. In summary, it is our belief that the TAP with LB may provide a viable alternative to patients who have contraindications to thoracic epidural analgesia following major open abdominal surgery. We plan to continue enrollment in order to expand our results


References 1. Rawal N. Epidural technique for postoperative pain: gold standard no more? Reg Anesth Pain Med 2012;37(3):310-7. 2. Børglum J et al. Ultrasound-guided bilateral dual transversus abdominis plane block: a new four-point approach. Acta Anaesthesiol Scand 2011. 3. Niraj, G., et al. "Comparison of analgesic efficacy of subcostal transversus abdominis plane blocks with epidural analgesia following upper abdominal surgery." Anaesthesia 66.6 (2011): 465-471. 4. Rao, Kadam V., et al. "Epidural versus continuous transversus abdominis plane catheter technique for postoperative analgesia after abdominal surgery." Anaesthesia and intensive care 41.4 (2013): 476-481. 5. Krames ES. Practical issues when using neuraxial infusion. Oncology. 1999;13( suppl 2): 37– 44. 6. Du Pen, Stuart L., and Anna R. Williams. The dilemma of conversion from systemic to epidural morphine: a proposed conversion tool for treatment of cancer pain. Pain 56.1 (1994): 113-118.
 
Have you yourself utilized Exparel? What's your "N" with the drug? Like I have said studies are pretty worthless unless they actually agree with real world findings.

That is not how I critically evaluate data and academic studies. In my "opinion" you can't cherry pick studies that agree with what you believe to be true and completely disregard other studies that are in opposition. That is how physicians get stuck practicing and citing 100 year old dogma that has been disproved time and time again (eg: "renal dose" dopamine).

I am not necessarily saying that you haven't had amazing success with Exparel -- certainly you may have. But, if you have had such amazing results, I urge you to apply for a grant, set up an RCT, and properly publish your data so we can all have hard, concrete numbers on how much better Exparel is than conventional bupivacaine.

But until those studies come along, I will continue to use conventional bupivacaine. Just my opinion.
 
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That is not how I critically evaluate data and academic studies. In my "opinion" you can't cherry pick studies that agree with what you believe to be true and completely disregard other studies that are in opposition. That is how physicians get stuck practicing and citing 100 year old dogma that has been disproved time and time again (eg: "renal dose" dopamine).

I am not necessarily saying that you haven't had amazing success with Exparel -- certainly you may have. But, if you have had such amazing results, I urge you to apply for a grant, set up an RCT, and properly publish your data so we can all have hard, concrete numbers on how much better Exparel is than conventional bupivacaine.

But until those studies come along, I will continue to use conventional bupivacaine. Just my opinion.


Completely agree. This thread is like arguing back and forth about which underpowered, biased study to go with.

This exparel trend is so interesting to me, why are so many people jumping on board? The evidence is CLEARLY sketchy. And how are you guys asessing "hours of analgesia" Are you following up with all your patients and asking pain scores and deducing that lack of pain is from exparel vs a multitude of other causes? Especially at >36hrs out. Especially with lame adductor canal blocks with variable anatomy and no motor block to truly indicate a successful block.

I think something else (?$$/"speaking engagements") is "compelling" ortho and some anesthesiologists to get on board with this wierd and ineffective drug. At the expense of the patient, financially and through pain.
 
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Completely agree. This thread is like arguing back and forth about which underpowered, biased study to go with.

This exparel trend is so interesting to me, why are so many people jumping on board? The evidence is CLEARLY sketchy. And how are you guys asessing "hours of analgesia" Are you following up with all your patients and asking pain scores and deducing that lack of pain is from exparel vs a multitude of other causes? Especially at >36hrs out. Especially with lame adductor canal blocks with variable anatomy and no motor block to truly indicate a successful block.

I think something else (?$$/"speaking engagements") is "compelling" ortho and some anesthesiologists to get on board with this wierd and ineffective drug. At the expense of the patient, financially and through pain.

We call our patients to follow-up about their experience at the hospital and complications. This includes questions regarding postop pain scores and numbness. Those patients receiving Exparel have consistently lower pain scores, longer analgesia and longer blocks than those receiving Bupivacaine with Dexamethasone.

So, while you refuse to jump on board my "N" is well over 1,000 utilizing Exparel for postop pain relief. The fact is the harshest critics of Exparel have little or no experience using the drug and fail to grasp the fact that SLOW RELEASE BUPIVACAINE lasts longer than the standard formulation. Many on this board questioned the fact that decadron combined with Bup or Rop extended the duration of the block along with postop analgesia. In fact, when I started posting about this several years ago some on SDN didn't believe it was true.

The same thing is now going on about Exparel. This drug while expensive lasts longer than plain Bupivacaine or even Bup with adjuvants. Is it worth an extra $280 to get another 24 hopurs of postop pain relief? I believe it is while others say no.

Finally, until you have actually used the drug and followed up on your patients most of you have no idea about the efficacy of Exparel; instead, you just post baseless opinions on SDN. Some surgeons over dilute the Exparel diminishing its efficacy. As I have posted undiluted Exparel has the longest efficacy at over 48 hours; dilution up to 60 mls still reliably provides postop analgesia beyond 36 hours for sensory nerve blocks. Once dilution exceeds 60 mls of total volume duration of postop analgesia drops off significantly.

I've never received any money from Pacira or a drug rep; They have bought me lunch and a dinner but I assure you that I can't be bought for the price of a bagel. Exparel is anything but "weird or ineffective" and I expect the company to gain FDA approval for nerve blocks eventually. Once that happens I'll triple my use of Exparel and provide 48-72 hours of analgesia to my patients on a routine basis.

Again, if you haven't used this drug at least 10-20 times keep your opinion to yourself since you have no basis for such an opinion. Perhaps, you simply want to short the stock?

Extended release Bupivacaine, whether in this formulation or another, has a role to play in postop pain relief.
 
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Peripheral nerve blocks: In both preclinical toxicology and phase 1 healthy-volunteer studies, no evidence of nerve injury was observed/reported following single-injection peripheral nerve blocks (Richard 2012, Ilfeld 2013). In a phase 1/2 study involving volunteers, subjects (n=14) received variable doses of Exparel (0-80 mg) in bilateral femoral nerve blocks (Ilfeld 2013). The higher doses (40-80 mg) demonstrated sensory and motor deficits lasting 24-99 hours: sensory and motor block duration was >24 hours in 100 percent and 90 percent of subjects, respectively. This proof-of-concept study was used to help design a subsequent phase 2 study involving patients undergoing tricompartment knee arthroplasty (E. Onel, Pacira Pharmaceuticals, Inc., written communication, April 3, 2014). Subjects (n=100) received a single-injection femoral nerve block with either normal saline (n=24) or one of three possible doses of Exparel: 67, 133 or 266 mg. The results suggest that, for the first 24 hours, the two higher doses produced similar resting pain scores, and that these were both superior to the lower dose of Exparel and placebo (the latter two of which were very similar to each other).

A subsequent phase 3 multicenter, randomized, observer-masked, placebo-controlled trial was completed recently (E. Onel, Pacira Pharmaceuticals, Inc., written communication, April 3, 2014). Subjects (n=184) received a single-injection femoral nerve block with either saline or Exparel, 266 mg. Final analysis is not available at the time of this writing, but initial results demonstrate a statistically significant difference for the primary endpoint of area under the curve for pain scores in the first 72 postoperative hours (p<0.0001). Given the comparator was a placebo, the positive results are not surprising. Yet the results are significant because pain scores were improved with Exparel not only in the first 24 hours, but in the 24-48 and 48-72 hour periods as well (p<0.05), demonstrating extended analgesic duration with a single injection of liposome local anesthetic far beyond that expected with bupivacaine HCl.


Brian M. Ilfeld, M.D., M.S. (Clinical Investigation) is Professor of Anesthesiology, In-Residence, Division of Regional Anesthesia and Acute Pain Medicine, Department of Anesthesiology, University of California San Diego.
 
Especially with lame adductor canal blocks with variable anatomy and no motor block to truly indicate a successful block.

Maybe your adductors are lame because you are no good at them. Mine work pretty darn well ;-)
 
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Again, if you haven't used this drug at least 10-20 times keep your opinion to yourself since you have no basis for such an opinion. Perhaps, you simply want to short the stock?

Extended release Bupivacaine, whether in this formulation or another, has a role to play in postop pain relief.
Why are you bullying him and suppressing his opinion?
do I have to remind you of the warning letter from the FDA to Pacira regarding falsely advertising the duration of action?
Here you ago:


http://www.fda.gov/downloads/Drugs/...etterstoPharmaceuticalCompanies/UCM416513.pdf
 
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I stand by my opinion despite the kool aid drinkers. Clearly someone is trying to recoup stock market losses.
ACBs are crappy FNBs, and exparel is crappy bupivicaine. But just keep doing whatever the orthopod wants you to do, I mean you really cant refute your analysis via post op phone calls and pain scores. Or your N=14 study.

Besides dont you old timers just watch a youtube video and imitate it?
Hmm what does the surgeon ask for? ACB? Why not femoral? oh no matter, quick to youtube to learn it, maybe a weekend course? What do you want me to inject? Sure..

Im from the generation that actually was trained to do the blocks properly with the appropriate substances.

I file the ACB right along with the other tissue plane blocks FI, TAP block and PEC blocks -- crap.
 
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I stand by my opinion despite the kool aid drinkers. Clearly someone is trying to recoup stock market losses.
ACBs are crappy FNBs, and exparel is crappy bupivicaine. But just keep doing whatever the orthopod wants you to do, I mean you really cant refute your analysis via post op phone calls and pain scores. Or your N=14 study.

Besides dont you old timers just watch a youtube video and imitate it?
Hmm what does the surgeon ask for? ACB? Why not femoral? oh no matter, quick to youtube to learn it, maybe a weekend course? What do you want me to inject? Sure..

Im from the generation that actually was trained to do the blocks properly with the appropriate substances.

I file the ACB right along with the other tissue plane blocks FI, TAP block and PEC blocks -- crap.

What would be your suggestion for learning a new technique post residency? Just curious, not implying that seeing it on you tube is enough without additional research.

I too learned with ultrasound from experts in the field, however there are changes to techniques and technology that must be integrated or you are the old guy doing prop sux tube and that's it. I'm not spending a month learning a simple to do block...
 
I file the ACB right along with the other tissue plane blocks FI, TAP block and PEC blocks -- crap.
The ACB is nice because the silly orthopods who live in fear of FNB quad weakness are usually OK with an ACB, and an ACB is better than no block.

I've had good results with FI blocks for old-people hip fractures.

Though I haven't done more than a handful of TAPs in my life, I've seen that our pain service is getting pretty good results with them. (For supraumbilical incisions they don't work well unless they also do a rectus sheath block.)

They also do a lot of paravertebrals of late, for breast cases that we never used to. I'm waiting for the first dropped lung to swing that pendulum back in the other direction and maybe spur some interest in PECs. Presently even the breast biopsy cases we used to do under local/MAC are getting paravertebrals, which I think is a little nuts; I think I'd rather see them get PEC blocks.

I don't agree that tissue plane blocks are crap.
 
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I file the ACB right along with the other tissue plane blocks FI, TAP block and PEC blocks -- crap.

Hoya,
You and I have hashed it out w/ regards to ACB's before, so at the risk of :beat: I'll just say this:

1) Are ACB's as good from an analgesic standpoint as FNB's? No, they are not, but they are still pretty darn good and certainly better than nothing. Some of our orthopods are sending pts home from TKA on POD#1, and they can't do that if the pt isn't ambulatory on DOS. I still do FNB's for cases like patella ORIF's w/ extensor reconstructions where pts will be in a knee immobilizer long term.

2) If you are classifying the ACB as a "tissue plane block" in the same category w/ TAP's and PEC's then you are not doing them correctly. I am identifying the saphenous nerve in >90% of pts and leaving it surrounded w/ local when the block is complete. Maybe you should spend some more time on Youtube :poke: :hardy:.

Now back on topic: Blade, what have been your results since going to IV dex w/ the block?? I use 0.5 Bupi plain w/ 1mg/10mL PF dex for my blocks and duration is reliably 24-30 hours (I put 3mg dex into the 30mL bottl of Bupi). I have not personally tried IV dex instead of perineural dex mostly because I feel it's BS but I'm curious to hear your impressions. Thanks.
 
1. ACB is pretty effective for ORIF patella actually
2. ACB success can be confirmed by numbness in the medial calf
3. The various plane blocks are still being studied and perfected.
4. What happened to the research that said ropivacaine/bupivacaine were more neurotoxic than dexamethasone?
 
Everytime this thread comes along, I log in and write a post similar to this:

I give IV dexamethasone to virtually every patient I put to sleep. Until I put dexamethasone into the interscalene block, I had zero blocks last more than 24 hours, and I had never heard of one lasting that long. Since I started doing it a few years ago, virtually every block has lasted more than 24 hours. I can't really explain the data about IV dex and block prolongation.

IV dexamethasone has been injected onto the cervical nerve roots, in cervical transforaminal injections, millions of time, with no reports of nerve damage attributed to the drug itself (as far as I know). In this procedure, its usually given in concentrations at least 10x higher (and often even higher) than given in an ISB.

Neurotoxicity is the mechanism of action of local anesthestics. That's why they work.
(I realize this is just semantics, but...)
 
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As of late our hospital can not get Preservative free Decadron, on backorder. Would it be safe to use regular dexamethasone in a 1-2mg dose in 20-30cc local for injection? The PF decadron makes a huge difference on duration so would like to get back to using it.
 
I stand by my opinion despite the kool aid drinkers. Clearly someone is trying to recoup stock market losses.
ACBs are crappy FNBs, and exparel is crappy bupivicaine. But just keep doing whatever the orthopod wants you to do, I mean you really cant refute your analysis via post op phone calls and pain scores. Or your N=14 study.

Besides dont you old timers just watch a youtube video and imitate it?
Hmm what does the surgeon ask for? ACB? Why not femoral? oh no matter, quick to youtube to learn it, maybe a weekend course? What do you want me to inject? Sure..

Im from the generation that actually was trained to do the blocks properly with the appropriate substances.

I file the ACB right along with the other tissue plane blocks FI, TAP block and PEC blocks -- crap.

I attended a course with an expert who published a textbook on U/S guided Regional Anesthesia. U/S is far easier to perform than landmark based techniques which I was quite successful at for a long time.

AS for your comments they are baseless because you dismiss the daily practice of anesthesia as worthless. Since I do this every day I see what works and what doesn't work. I leave my ego at the door because providing the best care to each and every patient is the goal.

I convinced my surgeons to move away from Femoral blocks; they were perfectly happy with the status quo. I encourage LIA with Exparel along with an Adductor canal block. Pain scores are a little higher in PACU but I offer rescue blocks when needed to those select few (less than 10%) who aren't happy with the LIA plus ACB.

You were trained to do blocks? So what? A monkey can do U/S guided blocks. The real "training" is the thought process involved for why we do what we do every single day. My techniques continue to evolve as the literature evolves in order to provide safety and efficacy to patients. The technique and drugs of today will not be the ones of tomorrow. I suspect many of your blocks are "crap" because you fail to evaluate the reasons why the block was inadequate and make the necessary adjustments.
 
Everytime this thread comes along, I log in and write a post similar to this:

I give IV dexamethasone to virtually every patient I put to sleep. Until I put dexamethasone into the interscalene block, I had zero blocks last more than 24 hours, and I had never heard of one lasting that long. Since I started doing it a few years ago, virtually every block has lasted more than 24 hours. I can't really explain the data about IV dex and block prolongation.

IV dexamethasone has been injected onto the cervical nerve roots, in cervical transforaminal injections, millions of time, with no reports of nerve damage attributed to the drug itself (as far as I know). In this procedure, its usually given in concentrations at least 10x higher (and often even higher) than given in an ISB.

Neurotoxicity is the mechanism of action of local anesthestics. That's why they work.
(I realize this is just semantics, but...)


In order to prolong the postop analgesia with IV dexamethasone the data suggests HIGH DOSES are needed. This means at least 0.1 mg/kg IV or 8-10 mg IV prior to the block.

Dexamethasone combined with local anesthetic is MORE neurotoxic than local anesthetic alone. This is why caution is advised when using perineural dexamethasone combined with Bupivacaine for regional anesthesia. Chronic Pain patients already have a pre-existing condition which is why you can get away using it on that subgroup. Our patients have no issues prior to the block and surgery so postop complications will be blamed on your DEXAMETHASONE.
The data suggests using no more than 66 ug/ml of dexamethasone for peripheral nerve blocks; unfortunately, IMHO you need around 100 ug/ml to get reliable prolongation of the block beyond 24 hours when utilizing Dexamethasone with Bupivacaine. The interesting thing is that Williams et al never actually studied 100 ug/ml so that dosage may indeed be safe. I would really like to see the same study repeated using 66 ug/ml, 100 ug/ml and 133 ug/ml to more accurately define the range which the authors consider safe.
 
when dexamethasone is combined with local anesthetics, the concentration of the former should not exceed 66.6 ug/mL, as the concentration of 133 ug/mL combined with ropivacaine 2.5mg/mL led to a significant increase in neuronal cytotoxicity

Brian Williams, MD
UPMC


Brian A. Williams, MD, MBA, Department of Anesthesiology, University of Pittsburgh School of Medicine, 200 Lothrop Street, A-1305 Scaife Hall, Pittsburgh, PA 15261, USA. Tel: 412-360-1602; Fax: 412-360-6609; E-mail: [email protected].

 
I would like to add the "increased Neuronal Cytotoxicity" seen by Williams et al occurred at 24 hours of exposure to the combined dexamethasone and Ropivacaine. Clinically, the nerve blocks we do would be unlikely to bathe the nerve for 24 hours (single shot).
 
As of late our hospital can not get Preservative free Decadron, on backorder. Would it be safe to use regular dexamethasone in a 1-2mg dose in 20-30cc local for injection? The PF decadron makes a huge difference on duration so would like to get back to using it.
Unfortunately all the literature out there mentions PF Dexamethasone, so if something goes wrong it wouldn't be surprising if some one questions your use of Dexamethasone with preservative. On the other hand I have used it hundreds of times for nerve blocks and with doses much higher than those strange doses that some crazy people have memorized and keep regurgitating and I never had a single problem.
 
I have been using PF dex at 4mg for non diabetics and 2mg for diabetics. Do you guys think I should reduce the dose?
 
What BLADEMDA says:
Any of you trying something new for your single shot blocks?

What BLADEMDA means:
BLADEMDA said:
Would you like to read my rapid-fire multi-posting? Would you like to hear my incessant bragging over my block "n"? (?!) Would you like me to argue with you incessantly if you disagree with me? Would you like me to Use Inappropriate Capitalization?

(He didn't really post that)
 
There are plenty of pain people using regular dexamethasone. All of the particulate steroids we use have preservatives as well.
 
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