Pharm D. to MD or DO?

[NoobPharmD?]

Hello,
I'm aware this has been posted before, but I wanted opinions for myself or own scenario. I am currently 27yo (just this year) and I am a practicing pharmacist. I graduated in 2017, but due to poor grades (I almost flunked 3x due to severe depression), I was not licensed until early 2018, ergo I have barely been practicing for a little over a year. I am working at a state hospital, and if any of you are not aware, the work at these institutions is, to put it in the nicest way, is extremely bland. Don't get me wrong, the pay is great (especially as an independent contractor), but the struggle of finding something to do or staying awake is mind-numblingly real. I know most people, especially coworkers and friends, don't share this opinion, but I did not get into ~$250,000 of debt to work at a place that does not stimulate my learning or where I feel that I am not using what I learned in class. I do not feel that I truly 'earned' what I earn since the work does not equate to the pay (if this makes any sense). I have always wanted to go to med school, but at the time of finishing high school, I did not have the grades or the merit (btw, I went to a combined program at UoP 3+3, no PCAT necessary). Not only at my work, but also through rotations, I have come to realize that pharmacy is, quite frankly, boring. I don't know if I am giving up on pharmacy too quickly? I have tried to find other jobs, but in California, with almost 14 pharmacy schools, the market is completely saturated. I know this is not a good reason to give up on a job, especially considering the debt, but I need an escape from my workplace and that's one of the reasons I am considering med school or DO school. I also am tired of being on the sidelines of providing patient care instead of being the one in charge, so respect ties in there too. Pharmacists are just don't receive the respect that we deserve. In the past, I always considered pharmacy a stepping stone to med school, but now I'm not so sure. With so many obstacles in the way (MCAT, time, debt, etc....), I'm finding it difficult to find a way to pursue my dream. I know these sound like excuses, but I just don't know what to do or where to start. Does having a PharmD. give a leg up when pursing med school? Is it worth it to consider a career change if I have not fully explored my own field? Are my reasons for wanting to go to med school too selfish? Is there a difference between MD and DO programs (coworkers and a MD PhD friend have told me no, but that DO is easier to get into). Any thoughts?

**This is not intended to get any pity, but to explain some of my personal limitations. I was diagnosed (and am cured now) with childhood leukemia and was hospitalized for 3 years. I received both chemo and radiation therapy, the aftermath of which have impaired my learning ability (mainly spatial reasoning, which will be a HUGE setback in med school. Not only that, but my processing of information is much slower than others. I have made it through this far and if I put my mind to it, I could potentially go through this other hurdle. I just don't know if it's worth it.

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[Thoughtfulsinner]

Admissions will be much more open to it if you have be practicing as a pharmacist for a lot longer than a year. I'm talking about 5-10 years where you have given that career an opportunity and now know from experience what you want. You will also want to have a high GPA (>3.6) in pharmacy school.

 

[BidingMyTime]

Does having a PharmD. give a leg up when pursing med school? Is it worth it to consider a career change if I have not fully explored my own field? Are my reasons for wanting to go to med school too selfish? Is there a difference between MD and DO programs (coworkers and a MD PhD friend have told me no, but that DO is easier to get into). Any thoughts?

No, a PharmD will not help you with admission into medical school (although it will help you with learning material in medical school, to a small extent.) Medical schools don't want to take people who aren't 100% committed to medical school, and the fact that you finished a professional school and are already wanting to change professions shows a low-level of committment. *IF* everything else on your application is good, very high GPA, high MCAT, good volunteer work/experiences, and your goals are the right fit for the program you are applying to, then a PharmD isn't going to keep you from being admitted. But in your situation, it will be viewed as a negative.

Is it worth to consider a career change at this point in your life? I would say absolutely not, but that something you will have to decide for yourself.

Let's be honest, most people's reasons for doing anything are selfish. As long as your selfishness benefits other people and/or doesn't harm other people, it's all good. Personally, I think you are incorrect in expecting a job to be "fulfilling." Hobbies are fulfilling, that is why people pay to do them. Jobs are usually not fulfilling, and that is why people are paid to do them. Even the most fulfilling job, will start to become rote at some point. It sounds like you have a wonderful amount of leisure time you could be studying and expanding your knowledge at work. If it were me, I'd be reading up on and doing CE on all facets of pharmacy. You could look into getting board certified. Or start a pharmacy blog. Think about programs you could introduce to improve something at your workplace. If you can't stand your job, then use your free time to make your job more enjoyable.

For all intent and purposes, there is no difference between MD and DO program. DO programs will teach you osteopathy, so you will have some extra classes. DO programs are easier to get into (if you have a lower GPA, they aren't easier to get into when it comes to negatives like not being fully committed to a profession.) Even then, you would need at least a 3.3 GPA for a DO program.

Given that you almost flunked out of pharmacy school, there is no way a MD/DO program is going to take you at this point. You would need to look into doing a postbacclaureate medical program and get straight A's. Even this won't guarantee you admission, but that, along with your explanation for why you got poor grades in pharmacy school and how that has been remedied, may get some schools to consider you. You would need to be able to assure the medical school that you aren't going to get depressed and almost flunk out, as you did in pharmacy school.

 

[Lnsean]

Hello,
I'm aware this has been posted before, but I wanted opinions for myself or own scenario. I am currently 27yo (just this year) and I am a practicing pharmacist. I graduated in 2017, but due to poor grades (I almost flunked 3x due to severe depression), I was not licensed until early 2018, ergo I have barely been practicing for a little over a year. I am working at a state hospital, and if any of you are not aware, the work at these institutions is, to put it in the nicest way, is extremely bland. Don't get me wrong, the pay is great (especially as an independent contractor), but the struggle of finding something to do or staying awake is mind-numblingly real. I know most people, especially coworkers and friends, don't share this opinion, but I did not get into ~$250,000 of debt to work at a place that does not stimulate my learning or where I feel that I am not using what I learned in class. I do not feel that I truly 'earned' what I earn since the work does not equate to the pay (if this makes any sense). I have always wanted to go to med school, but at the time of finishing high school, I did not have the grades or the merit (btw, I went to a combined program at UoP 3+3, no PCAT necessary). Not only at my work, but also through rotations, I have come to realize that pharmacy is, quite frankly, boring. I don't know if I am giving up on pharmacy too quickly? I have tried to find other jobs, but in California, with almost 14 pharmacy schools, the market is completely saturated. I know this is not a good reason to give up on a job, especially considering the debt, but I need an escape from my workplace and that's one of the reasons I am considering med school or DO school. I also am tired of being on the sidelines of providing patient care instead of being the one in charge, so respect ties in there too. Pharmacists are just don't receive the respect that we deserve. In the past, I always considered pharmacy a stepping stone to med school, but now I'm not so sure. With so many obstacles in the way (MCAT, time, debt, etc....), I'm finding it difficult to find a way to pursue my dream. I know these sound like excuses, but I just don't know what to do or where to start. Does having a PharmD. give a leg up when pursing med school? Is it worth it to consider a career change if I have not fully explored my own field? Are my reasons for wanting to go to med school too selfish? Is there a difference between MD and DO programs (coworkers and a MD PhD friend have told me no, but that DO is easier to get into). Any thoughts?

**This is not intended to get any pity, but to explain some of my personal limitations. I was diagnosed (and am cured now) with childhood leukemia and was hospitalized for 3 years. I received both chemo and radiation therapy, the aftermath of which have impaired my learning ability (mainly spatial reasoning, which will be a HUGE setback in med school. Not only that, but my processing of information is much slower than others. I have made it through this far and if I put my mind to it, I could potentially go through this other hurdle. I just don't know if it's worth it.

Having a pharmd is a burden, not an asset. Every admissions committee will want to know why you are abandoning your profession. Are you unhappy with your job....with life? This is what e everyone will be thinking. It's a very simple question but very very tough to explain in a meaningful way to admissions.

 

[rxkrafted]

I see a lot of red flags for going for an MD/DO in your position.
You almost flunked out of pharmacy school due to poor grades. Medical school is much more difficult than pharmacy school, but at least you would have an easier time during pharmacology classes. You should also think about realistic scenarios that could happen: you don't score well on your STEPs and don't even get the residency you wanted to do. Now you'll be stuck with ~1million dollars in debt and working in a specialty you don't even enjoy.

 

[steveysmith54]

You may need to go through the Caribbean medical school route.

 

[rxkrafted]

You may need to go through the Caribbean medical school route.

That'll be unfortunate because OP will have a very difficult time finding residency spot since they will have the MD/DO merge

 

[spacecowgirl]

Find something else to light your fire. If you can't, you aren't looking hard enough. You have a "boring" job that gives you lots of thinking time, if you can't find the upside in that, that's on you.

 

[lord999]

Having a pharmd is a burden, not an asset. Every admissions committee will want to know why you are abandoning your profession. Are you unhappy with your job....with life? This is what e everyone will be thinking. It's a very simple question but very very tough to explain in a meaningful way to admissions.

And @Lnsean definitely should know having been personally in that position. You should search for his posts during his admission time, they are rather frank in their anxiety about admission as well laying plain his motives for why medicine when pharmacy was still good.

There's one other piece though that @Lnsean leaves out that I think he discounts for being a depressing episode in his life. @Lnsean had worked as a pharmacist for long enough to make the assertion that pharmacy was not for him in the long term, and that inspires him to work harder. There's other comments that he makes around the time period where that definitely motivates him to do better in medical school than the average since he knows what just being average gets you in this field of work. Not trying to put words in his mouth, but the drive comes from at least the following: "I'm losing $120k a year to do this. If I don't do this well and get what I really want to do out of it, I'll be no better off with my life than my pharmacist years, and I painfully know how much that sucks."

Op, you have not worked enough to have that sort of fire based on how you phrased it. I recommend that you do work enough to be absolutely certain of your path like @Lnsean. Your questions are speculative, if you cannot find the will to power, then I urge you not to do this until you do. Medicine is not easy, and honestly, it is a guaranteed losing position under normal circumstances from pharmacy even now. It can only be a winner if you like the work, and you are willing to work hard enough to avoid the workaday jobs that the majority of physicians get unless that work is more meaningful to you.

And I'm not trying to sell you on the power of positive thinking, it's more that you don't have enough of a drive to succeed yet. But, if you cannot internally motivate yourself to do better, if you are only going to do just enough, then pharmacy is good enough for you as medicine is not an unambiguous improvement from our situation. But if you're internally motivated to outperform and outcompete those who don't know the work world like you do, then you have a chance (not a certainty) that you can do better.

Spend some time reading and reflecting, then get out there and find that drive, you first need to find permanent employment.

 

[Reirrac]

Count your blessings; you have a "boring" pharmacist job at a hospital even with your health conditions and barely making through school. Jobs simply provide income to finance whatever you have in mind that is fulfilling to you. If the job isn't exciting, then find your passion outside of work. Don't go into debt and waste years looking for that perfect job that may not exist.

 

[NoobPharmD?]

Admissions will be much more open to it if you have be practicing as a pharmacist for a lot longer than a year. I'm talking about 5-10 years where you have given that career an opportunity and now know from experience what you want. You will also want to have a high GPA (>3.6) in pharmacy school.

After 5-10 years, wouldn't I essentially have to retake classes at that point?

 

[NoobPharmD?]

No, a PharmD will not help you with admission into medical school (although it will help you with learning material in medical school, to a small extent.) Medical schools don't want to take people who aren't 100% committed to medical school, and the fact that you finished a professional school and are already wanting to change professions shows a low-level of committment. *IF* everything else on your application is good, very high GPA, high MCAT, good volunteer work/experiences, and your goals are the right fit for the program you are applying to, then a PharmD isn't going to keep you from being admitted. But in your situation, it will be viewed as a negative.

Is it worth to consider a career change at this point in your life? I would say absolutely not, but that something you will have to decide for yourself.

Let's be honest, most people's reasons for doing anything are selfish. As long as your selfishness benefits other people and/or doesn't harm other people, it's all good. Personally, I think you are incorrect in expecting a job to be "fulfilling." Hobbies are fulfilling, that is why people pay to do them. Jobs are usually not fulfilling, and that is why people are paid to do them. Even the most fulfilling job, will start to become rote at some point. It sounds like you have a wonderful amount of leisure time you could be studying and expanding your knowledge at work. If it were me, I'd be reading up on and doing CE on all facets of pharmacy. You could look into getting board certified. Or start a pharmacy blog. Think about programs you could introduce to improve something at your workplace. If you can't stand your job, then use your free time to make your job more enjoyable.

For all intent and purposes, there is no difference between MD and DO program. DO programs will teach you osteopathy, so you will have some extra classes. DO programs are easier to get into (if you have a lower GPA, they aren't easier to get into when it comes to negatives like not being fully committed to a profession.) Even then, you would need at least a 3.3 GPA for a DO program.

Given that you almost flunked out of pharmacy school, there is no way a MD/DO program is going to take you at this point. You would need to look into doing a postbacclaureate medical program and get straight A's. Even this won't guarantee you admission, but that, along with your explanation for why you got poor grades in pharmacy school and how that has been remedied, may get some schools to consider you. You would need to be able to assure the medical school that you aren't going to get depressed and almost flunk out, as you did in pharmacy school.

Thanks, you definitely bring up really good points. I have taken much of this into consideration, which is why I'm on the fence of even pursuing this. There is no guarantee that changing careers would be 'more fulfilling,' but it just seems to me that the medical field has so much more to offer and seems much more interesting and stimulating than pharmacy. How long would a post-baccalaurete program take? I assumed that I would have to retake classes anyway, especially in anatomy & physiology.

 

[NoobPharmD?]

And @Lnsean definitely should know having been personally in that position. You should search for his posts during his admission time, they are rather frank in their anxiety about admission as well laying plain his motives for why medicine when pharmacy was still good.

There's one other piece though that @Lnsean leaves out that I think he discounts for being a depressing episode in his life. @Lnsean had worked as a pharmacist for long enough to make the assertion that pharmacy was not for him in the long term, and that inspires him to work harder. There's other comments that he makes around the time period where that definitely motivates him to do better in medical school than the average since he knows what just being average gets you in this field of work. Not trying to put words in his mouth, but the drive comes from at least the following: "I'm losing $120k a year to do this. If I don't do this well and get what I really want to do out of it, I'll be no better off with my life than my pharmacist years, and I painfully know how much that sucks."

Op, you have not worked enough to have that sort of fire based on how you phrased it. I recommend that you do work enough to be absolutely certain of your path like @Lnsean. Your questions are speculative, if you cannot find the will to power, then I urge you not to do this until you do. Medicine is not easy, and honestly, it is a guaranteed losing position under normal circumstances from pharmacy even now. It can only be a winner if you like the work, and you are willing to work hard enough to avoid the workaday jobs that the majority of physicians get unless that work is more meaningful to you.

And I'm not trying to sell you on the power of positive thinking, it's more that you don't have enough of a drive to succeed yet. But, if you cannot internally motivate yourself to do better, if you are only going to do just enough, then pharmacy is good enough for you as medicine is not an unambiguous improvement from our situation. But if you're internally motivated to outperform and outcompete those who don't know the work world like you do, then you have a chance (not a certainty) that you can do better.

Spend some time reading and reflecting, then get out there and find that drive, you first need to find permanent employment.

Thanks a bunch for your input! I will certainly take this into consideration.

 

[Thoughtfulsinner]

After 5-10 years, wouldn't I essentially have to retake classes at that point?

I worked as a pharmacist for 12 years before applying to med school. I had a 4.0 GPA in my 2 prepharm years and a 4.0 GPA in pharmacy school. No one told me to go back and retake classes. Hey go back and get your pharmacy degree again with updated classes then apply LOL.

 

[Sleepingdoc]

So many factors:
1. Do you have 400,000$ that you will need for 4 years of med school at your disposal
2. Do you plan to spend 2 extra years of pre med + 4 years of med school+ minimum 3 years of residency= total 9-10 years in school

I personally do not think its worth it.. thats 9-10 years of 120-180 thousand dollars a year that you are giving up... Its financially does not make sense, as far are number of years it does not make sense either.... it really depends on what your motivation is to go to med school.

 

[steveysmith54]

Thanks, you definitely bring up really good points. I have taken much of this into consideration, which is why I'm on the fence of even pursuing this. There is no guarantee that changing careers would be 'more fulfilling,' but it just seems to me that the medical field has so much more to offer and seems much more interesting and stimulating than pharmacy. How long would a post-baccalaurete program take? I assumed that I would have to retake classes anyway, especially in anatomy & physiology.

Don't think Anatomy and Physio are even prereqs for most med schools.
However, studying for MCAT may be huge challenge considering that information is so far distant.
Can't say that I didn't think of going back to school, however it's just not feasible or even justifiable.
Sounds like you're having first world problems.

 

[BidingMyTime]

Thanks, you definitely bring up really good points. I have taken much of this into consideration, which is why I'm on the fence of even pursuing this. There is no guarantee that changing careers would be 'more fulfilling,' but it just seems to me that the medical field has so much more to offer and seems much more interesting and stimulating than pharmacy. How long would a post-baccalaurete program take? I assumed that I would have to retake classes anyway, especially in anatomy & physiology.

A baccalaureate program would be 1 - 2 years. Whether or not you have to take retake classes will depend on the school you are applying to. I agree with Stevesmith, the bigger issue will be studying for your MCAT.

 

[KeikoTanaka]

Perhaps the answer isn't medical school, as people are saying, but instead a really nice pharmacy fellowship, where you get to utilize what you learned in school, and will lead you to a job that is more demanding/exciting?

 

[Louper]

Jobs simply provide income to finance whatever you have in mind that is fulfilling to you. If the job isn't exciting, then find your passion outside of work. Don't go into debt and waste years looking for that perfect job that may not exist.

Nailed it.

 

[Lnsean]

And @Lnsean definitely should know having been personally in that position. You should search for his posts during his admission time, they are rather frank in their anxiety about admission as well laying plain his motives for why medicine when pharmacy was still good.

There's one other piece though that @Lnsean leaves out that I think he discounts for being a depressing episode in his life. @Lnsean had worked as a pharmacist for long enough to make the assertion that pharmacy was not for him in the long term, and that inspires him to work harder. There's other comments that he makes around the time period where that definitely motivates him to do better in medical school than the average since he knows what just being average gets you in this field of work. Not trying to put words in his mouth, but the drive comes from at least the following: "I'm losing $120k a year to do this. If I don't do this well and get what I really want to do out of it, I'll be no better off with my life than my pharmacist years, and I painfully know how much that sucks."

Op, you have not worked enough to have that sort of fire based on how you phrased it. I recommend that you do work enough to be absolutely certain of your path like @Lnsean. Your questions are speculative, if you cannot find the will to power, then I urge you not to do this until you do. Medicine is not easy, and honestly, it is a guaranteed losing position under normal circumstances from pharmacy even now. It can only be a winner if you like the work, and you are willing to work hard enough to avoid the workaday jobs that the majority of physicians get unless that work is more meaningful to you.

And I'm not trying to sell you on the power of positive thinking, it's more that you don't have enough of a drive to succeed yet. But, if you cannot internally motivate yourself to do better, if you are only going to do just enough, then pharmacy is good enough for you as medicine is not an unambiguous improvement from our situation. But if you're internally motivated to outperform and outcompete those who don't know the work world like you do, then you have a chance (not a certainty) that you can do better.

Spend some time reading and reflecting, then get out there and find that drive, you first need to find permanent employment.

damn you make it sound like a deep novel.

The movie will be coming out next summer....starring Owen Wilson...

 

[PharmlyDoc]

I say go for it!!!

I know two PharmDs, both women, one is an MS1, and the other is an MS2. They both went to medical school (allopathic) directly after pharmacy school. They studied for the MCAT during their P4 year.

Having a PharmD is an asset! Don't listen to the naysayers.

I wouldn't worry about mental health holding you back either, seek therapy and support while in school. Here's a recent article in the NY Times about a psychiatrist who finished his MD/MBA and has bipolar disorder.

Social Mania (Published 2019)

His bipolar episodes were unpredictable in every way, except for how predictably they manifested on Facebook.

www.nytimes.com

p.s. for all of us worried about student loans, there's a solution; vote for Bernie Sanders for POTUS.

 

[rxkrafted]

I say go for it!!!

I know two PharmDs, both women, one is an MS1, and the other is an MS2. They both went to medical school (allopathic) directly after pharmacy school. They studied for the MCAT during their P4 year.

Having a PharmD is an asset! Don't listen to the naysayers.

I wouldn't worry about mental health holding you back either, seek therapy and support while in school. Here's a recent article in the NY Times about a psychiatrist who finished his MD/MBA and has bipolar disorder.

Social Mania (Published 2019)

His bipolar episodes were unpredictable in every way, except for how predictably they manifested on Facebook.

www.nytimes.com

p.s. for all of us worried about student loans, there's a solution; vote for Bernie Sanders for POTUS.

Yeah but their situation differs from OPs situation. OP almost flunked out of pharmacy school 3 times. Sometimes you have to be realistic. If you can't hold grades in pharmacy school, which I thought was not very challenging, you would have a harder time in medschool. Worse case scenario, you get into medschool and flunk out... Now you are in probably half a million in debt and looking for a pharmacy job again.

 

[PharmlyDoc]

Yeah but their situation differs from OPs situation. OP almost flunked out of pharmacy school 3 times. Sometimes you have to be realistic. If you can't hold grades in pharmacy school, which I thought was not very challenging, you would have a harder time in medschool. Worse case scenario, you get into medschool and flunk out... Now you are in probably half a million in debt and looking for a pharmacy job again.

The OP states he ALMOST flunked out. Do you think someone with bipolar hasn't ALMOST flunked out? And again with the student loan debt...vote for Bernie Sanders

 

[rxkrafted]

The OP states he ALMOST flunked out. Do you think someone with bipolar hasn't ALMOST flunked out? And again with the student loan debt...vote for Bernie Sanders

Do you think medschool and pharmacy school curriculum is the same in difficulty? If you almost flunk out in pharmacy school, chances are you won't make it in medschool (maybe get held back a couple years if lucky). Lol vote Bernie sanders and cancel trillions of dollars in debt with no eligibility criteria. Okay.

 

[PharmlyDoc]

Do you think medschool and pharmacy school curriculum is the same in difficulty? If you almost flunk out in pharmacy school, chances are you won't make it in medschool (maybe get held back a couple years if lucky). Lol vote Bernie sanders and cancel trillions of dollars in debt with no eligibility criteria. Okay.

I agree that the allopathic medical school curriculum is more difficult than that of pharmacy, though I think you'd be surprised that OP may find it easier to tackle the workload. Most medical schools don't require class attendance, unlike pharmacy, so students can be more productive and not get run down from sitting in lectures all day. Some schools even use Lecturio, which is a lot more efficient for learning. I've said my piece.

 

[rxkrafted]

I agree that the allopathic medical school curriculum is more difficult than that of pharmacy, though I think you'd be surprised that OP may find it easier to tackle the workload. Most medical schools don't require class attendance, unlike pharmacy, so students can be more productive and not get run down from sitting in lectures all day. Some schools even use Lecturio, which is a lot more efficient for learning. I've said my piece.

While attendance may or may not be required, they're using time away from class to study for their STEPs (which would be a strong deciding factor on what specialty they can even do afterwards). I'm all for encouraging people to pursue what they want but this is not a path I would recommend for OPs situation.

 

[Sine Cura]

PharmD is not an asset.

Figure your **** out earlier in life and don't waste time with a PharmD if you want to be a physician

 

[steveysmith54]

I think that it’s neither an asset nor disadvantage. However, If OP had poor grades in pharmacy school, that’s an immense disadvantage. In the end of the day, med school will select the student with best test scores, grades, and overall application.

I do agree that majority of pharmacy schools nowadays are a lot easier than med schools, just look at the new grads who are having trouble passing the exams

 

[redfish955]

Take advantage of your 40 hour work week and start volunteering. Sling soup, give financial advice to the disabled, etc. and etc. and etc. I would stick with pharmacy and just find something you can do with the other 20 hours of free time you have. Pretty much anyone earning north of 6 figures is working 55 plus hour weeks and doesn't have the time for volunteering and etc. If you swap it almost guarantees you will not retire at 59.5.

 

[Rouelle]

OP, take a look over in the Non-Trads forum. This pops up over there fairly frequently and you might get a bit different perspective than what you’ll get here.

 

[ThetisAntithesis]

@hwks09 can you PM me (I can't PM you). I have a few questions. Thanks

 

[drhenPharmD]

Doesn’t hurt to apply


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