PhD in computer science?

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elonmuskswife

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Hey all. I am currently a sophomore and pursuing a BS in Computer Science with minors in biology and chemistry. I realized when I was a biology major last year that I wasn't entirely loving it and found computer science to be fascinating. I also love medicine, and this has been reaffirmed with 1500 hours as a medical scribe in the Emergency Department and volunteer hours.

I want to do the MD/PhD route, but I'm not sure if it's even possible or allowed. I would like to get my PhD in computer science with a focus on machine learning and quantum computing.

Most of the MD/PhD paths I see are more focused with genetics, pharmacology, biology, immunology, etc. Is it possible to get a PhD in computer science within the MD/PhD route? If so, what schools provide this opportunity? Thank you for taking the time to read this!

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Keep in mind if you do apply for straight CS PhDs, some select schools may ask you for a GRE score (since the MCAT really only covers requirements for biomedical PhDs).
 
I'm currently applying to MD-PhD programs and I have similar interests to yours. It is definitely possible to do a PhD in CS at Harvard-MIT, Stanford, UPenn, and Duke. At most other places it seems like it is not possible to do the PhD in straight CS, but they have similar programs like bioinformatics and biomedical informatics through which, depending on the lab, you could do the more theoretical CS/ML research you seem to be interested in. It's up to you to look up faculty and labs to identify matches.

Sweet! Thank you for letting me know!
 
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Keep in mind if you do apply for straight CS PhDs, some select schools may ask you for a GRE score (since the MCAT really only covers requirements for biomedical PhDs).
That is great to keep in mind. Thank you!
 
Yes, you can do CS, but, as stated above, you should align your CS research interests with medicine. You're interested in machine learning? Then find a PI who research machine learning techniques in genomics! Or find a PI who uses machine learning techniques for clinical informatics purposes. Otherwise, if you're going to be practicing full time, your CS PhD is essentially useless -- and if you're going to be researching full time, your MD is useless; and if you're trying to do both practice+research, it doesn't make sense to divide your attention between running a CS lab with no relevant to medicine and seeing patients.

I'd say go don't limit your options to a "CS PhD" -- look at bioinformatics and genomics; if you find the right lab, you'll be doing CS 100% of the time anyway. If you really want a "CS PhD", then look at the schools mentioned in the second post as well as some of the UC's: UCLA, UC Irvine, UCSD, etc. (not UCSF though).
 
As an MD that went back to do a PhD and was accepted into both CS and BME programs, I can tell you that you will not find a CS PI with a focus in quantum computing anywhere in the U.S. that would have any interest in an MD/PhD candidate. Quantum computing is such a niche field within CS itself with a need for overlap between theoretical physics, applied math, computer engineering, etc that having any interest outside of those immediately surrounding quantum computing would be seen as undesirable. When my university CS dept hosts quantum computing experts for talks, you see 90% of the CS faculty get confused 10 minutes into the talk.

On the other hand, as an MD/PhD you would have abundant opportunities in applied machine learning where you use ML as a tool in scientific discovery. This is largely what my PhD involves, with a smaller component of pure ML. If you wanted to get a CS PhD in "pure" machine learning, where you are inventing new algorithms, then you would be less attractive to a CS PI focusing in pure ML, not applied ML.

If your real interest is in quantum computing, I say go all in on that. If you are able to make a major contribution there, then you have affected the lives of billions, not the tens-of-thousands you would over a clinical career.
 
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Hey all. I am currently a sophomore and pursuing a BS in Computer Science with minors in biology and chemistry. I realized when I was a biology major last year that I wasn't entirely loving it and found computer science to be fascinating. I also love medicine, and this has been reaffirmed with 1500 hours as a medical scribe in the Emergency Department and volunteer hours.

I want to do the MD/PhD route, but I'm not sure if it's even possible or allowed. I would like to get my PhD in computer science with a focus on machine learning and quantum computing.

Most of the MD/PhD paths I see are more focused with genetics, pharmacology, biology, immunology, etc. Is it possible to get a PhD in computer science within the MD/PhD route? If so, what schools provide this opportunity? Thank you for taking the time to read this!
The following is likely an unpopular opinion:

Keep in mind that a PhD in CS will give you legitimate understanding of the principles and will enable you to create answers for new problems. Any derivatives like bioinformatics and others will leave you ill-equipped to do this and will focus more on specific applications of CS methodology, relatively speaking.

This is parallel to the people who ask about MD-MPH or MD-PHD in epi to basically have the role as clinician-statistician when the real answer is MD-MS(or PhD) in biostatistics or statistics. The first two options focus more on specific applications but leave you high-and-dry in the areas of true understanding and the ability to come up with new solutions for problems. If you want to be a physician-computer scientist, get the PhD in CS and you can apply it to biomedical problems more effectively. If you want to be a physician-researcher with a good working knowledge of applications of CS to medicine, get a derivative degree. However, it's very hard to go from a less knowledgeable/in-depth degree to a more knowledgeable (i.e. you won't likely every be a computer scientist if you get a bioinformatics degree).
 
The following is likely an unpopular opinion:

Keep in mind that a PhD in CS will give you legitimate understanding of the principles and will enable you to create answers for new problems. Any derivatives like bioinformatics and others will leave you ill-equipped to do this and will focus more on specific applications of CS methodology, relatively speaking.

This is parallel to the people who ask about MD-MPH or MD-PHD in epi to basically have the role as clinician-statistician when the real answer is MD-MS(or PhD) in biostatistics or statistics. The first two options focus more on specific applications but leave you high-and-dry in the areas of true understanding and the ability to come up with new solutions for problems. If you want to be a physician-computer scientist, get the PhD in CS and you can apply it to biomedical problems more effectively. If you want to be a physician-researcher with a good working knowledge of applications of CS to medicine, get a derivative degree. However, it's very hard to go from a less knowledgeable/in-depth degree to a more knowledgeable (i.e. you won't likely every be a computer scientist if you get a bioinformatics degree).

Disagree. Working in bioinformatics/genomics can give you a "legitimate" understanding of the underlying computer science principles as well as train you in how to "create answers for new problems".

CS is a field that includes many subdisciplines. Regardless of what you do, you can't everything in CS. Someone who does research in systems may not necessarily be knowledgeable about algorithms (simply because that's not there focus!). You might say: but if you know theory, you know everything? You'll write proofs and all, but that will be your area of research (and even in theory, there are many subfields so you'll be focused on a subproblem within all there is to know about CS theory). You will not be the best equipped to do research in machine learning algorithms -- which, in itself, is a field that requires decades to master (and integrates probability theory, statistical theory, in addition to computer science).

My point? Pinpoint what interests you. Focus on that! It doesn't necessarily mean you understand a broader field less well. You will always understand less about the things that you aren't specifically doing research in, and that's fine -- you aren't expected to know everything.

Many of the top computational biologists have PhDs in pure math or pure CS. That's simply because computational biology / bioinformatics / genomics are relatively new fields. They ended up doing most of their research in solving problems in biology (and coming up with ways to solve such problems) so you don't see them writing papers on NP-completeness (and they likely haven't touched a lot of the CS theory in years unless they teach it to undergrads).

During your PhD, you learn the most from the lab you do research in. The poster above seems to think that if you choose a computational biology lab, you are therefore less equipped to solve questions in computational biology. Nothing can be further from the truth. The people who developed algorithms to analyze microarray and RNA-seq data are considered computational biologists, and are also considered statisticians / computer scientists. Some of them have compbio degrees, some have math degrees, and some have CS degrees. Another example: Latent Dirichlet Allocation was discovered by both computational biologists and computer scientists.

At my undergrad school (a top 5 where I earned a CS master's degree by the way), there was a lot of overlap between the bioinformatics and the CS PhD (or even between the bioinformatics and the CS master's). You could earn a degree in either and work under a CS Prof who develops algorithms to analyze genomics data. If you did bioinformatics though, you likely just wouldn't be working under a professor whose main research focus is cryptography.

That being said, I do agree with the above poster about the MPH/Epi comparison to statistics. That part is true -- but CS vs. computational biology is a completely different story.

So the question to the original poster is what he wants to do with CS. CS is a broad field. That's like saying "I want to do research in biochemistry". But there's no reason to think that (s)he should spend a decade of his/her life reading landmark mathematical proofs before trying to train deep learning models for genome motif discovery.
 
Genuinely curious from your experience- what would be a theoretical CS PI’s aversion to a MD/PhD student if they are as qualified as a PhD student in the PI’s area of research?

From my experience, CS PIs in general know that a man or a woman cannot be all things. Any CS PI's ideal candidate for his/her lab is a brilliant soon-to-finish undergrad from MIT, Princeton, Harvard, Berkeley, Stanford, etc with a 4.0, 170s, and several pubs in that CS PIs area of interest, demonstrating the ability to take a project end-to-end. For Quantum Computing, this would go with undergrad dual degrees in Physics and Math, Physics and CS, EE and Physics, etc. There are only so many hours in the day/week. It takes an abundance of time to prepare for medical school: MCAT, volunteering, clinical research, etc. A CS PI will have an abundance of less than ideally qualified pure quant applicants that cannot be perfect. Why would they expect that an applicant only dedicating a portion of his/her time would be better? That is the vibe that I got on the interview trail, and I was not applying to Quantum Computing labs.
 
Disagree. Working in bioinformatics/genomics can give you a "legitimate" understanding of the underlying computer science principles as well as train you in how to "create answers for new problems".

CS is a field that includes many subdisciplines. Regardless of what you do, you can't everything in CS. Someone who does research in systems may not necessarily be knowledgeable about algorithms (simply because that's not there focus!). You might say: but if you know theory, you know everything? You'll write proofs and all, but that will be your area of research (and even in theory, there are many subfields so you'll be focused on a subproblem within all there is to know about CS theory). You will not be the best equipped to do research in machine learning algorithms -- which, in itself, is a field that requires decades to master (and integrates probability theory, statistical theory, in addition to computer science).

My point? Pinpoint what interests you. Focus on that! It doesn't necessarily mean you understand a broader field less well. You will always understand less about the things that you aren't specifically doing research in, and that's fine -- you aren't expected to know everything.

Many of the top computational biologists have PhDs in pure math or pure CS. That's simply because computational biology / bioinformatics / genomics are relatively new fields. They ended up doing most of their research in solving problems in biology (and coming up with ways to solve such problems) so you don't see them writing papers on NP-completeness (and they likely haven't touched a lot of the CS theory in years unless they teach it to undergrads).

During your PhD, you learn the most from the lab you do research in. The poster above seems to think that if you choose a computational biology lab, you are therefore less equipped to solve questions in computational biology. Nothing can be further from the truth. The people who developed algorithms to analyze microarray and RNA-seq data are considered computational biologists, and are also considered statisticians / computer scientists. Some of them have compbio degrees, some have math degrees, and some have CS degrees. Another example: Latent Dirichlet Allocation was discovered by both computational biologists and computer scientists.

At my undergrad school (a top 5 where I earned a CS master's degree by the way), there was a lot of overlap between the bioinformatics and the CS PhD (or even between the bioinformatics and the CS master's). You could earn a degree in either and work under a CS Prof who develops algorithms to analyze genomics data. If you did bioinformatics though, you likely just wouldn't be working under a professor whose main research focus is cryptography.

That being said, I do agree with the above poster about the MPH/Epi comparison to statistics. That part is true -- but CS vs. computational biology is a completely different story.

So the question to the original poster is what he wants to do with CS. CS is a broad field. That's like saying "I want to do research in biochemistry". But there's no reason to think that (s)he should spend a decade of his/her life reading landmark mathematical proofs before trying to train deep learning models for genome motif discovery.
I do think it's possible to get a bioinformatics degree and become a great computer scientist (just for an example), but I think that overall, the quality of your education won't be comparable. Your experience at a top school doesn't reflect the general pattern and top schools often don't water down courses for non majors as much as the mid-tier programs. The top-tier programs also do a better job at keeping core requirements rigorous while focusing the electives on the specific fields (i.e. a bioinformatics and pure CS degree are more likely to have substantial overlap in core courses because this is the core of bioinformatics, and then another "track specific" core for bioinformatics is where a branching occurs.) This is at least what I can tell from researching programs, and this holds true in things like mathematics and statistics degree programs, too. Maybe you can comment on the core curricula for the programs at your school. In general, though, the top schools don't deflate the core out of which the subfields arise. (I'd imagine admission requirements for the undergrad mathematics sequence is probably similar for CS and bioinformatics or mathematical biology at your school. This is often not the case at less-than-top programs-- at least from what I can see.)

I certainly don't think "if you know theory you know everything"-- this is a silly statement and understates how broad a field is relative to what you cover in school. However, you can't really disagree that a more rigorous theoretical background better prepares you to create new solutions for problems or even pick up a book and learn new material to a deep level-- on average, you're better suited with a more formal and rigorous background when it comes to formal logic, probability, mathematics, and statistics (all of which tend to be utilized in some way in CS). So, it doesn't surprise me that a pure mathematician can be a top computational biologist because that requires much softer background knowledge (i.e. specific to the application).
 
I do think it's possible to get a bioinformatics degree and become a great computer scientist (just for an example), but I think that overall, the quality of your education won't be comparable. Your experience at a top school doesn't reflect the general pattern and top schools often don't water down courses for non majors as much as the mid-tier programs. The top-tier programs also do a better job at keeping core requirements rigorous while focusing the electives on the specific fields (i.e. a bioinformatics and pure CS degree are more likely to have substantial overlap in core courses because this is the core of bioinformatics, and then another "track specific" core for bioinformatics is where a branching occurs.) This is at least what I can tell from researching programs, and this holds true in things like mathematics and statistics degree programs, too. Maybe you can comment on the core curricula for the programs at your school. In general, though, the top schools don't deflate the core out of which the subfields arise. (I'd imagine admission requirements for the undergrad mathematics sequence is probably similar for CS and bioinformatics or mathematical biology at your school. This is often not the case at less-than-top programs-- at least from what I can see.)

I certainly don't think "if you know theory you know everything"-- this is a silly statement and understates how broad a field is relative to what you cover in school. However, you can't really disagree that a more rigorous theoretical background better prepares you to create new solutions for problems or even pick up a book and learn new material to a deep level-- on average, you're better suited with a more formal and rigorous background when it comes to formal logic, probability, mathematics, and statistics (all of which tend to be utilized in some way in CS). So, it doesn't surprise me that a pure mathematician can be a top computational biologist because that requires much softer background knowledge (i.e. specific to the application).

Ok, that's fair, and I generally agree with this -- I was over-interpreting your original message so my apologies. I suppose my experience (at both my school and with interacting with computational biology professors who are well-known in the field and have made landmark discoveries) isn't entirely representative -- and my school has a CS department and a bioinformatics/genomics department wherein many professors are dual-affiliated but this may not be the same everywhere. I suppose I should clarify my point to be that: a bioinformatics-related PhD *can* be rigorous and prepare you as well for the research arena as a CS degree would, but I agree that it's oftentimes softened down. If the extent of your training involves using existing libraries in python to analyze sequencing data, it is certainly watered down.

The big names out there (e.g. Eric Lander) all had a pretty rigorous mathematics (or CS) training regardless of whether it was a CS, math, or biocomp degree. So certainly look at the quality of the bioinformatics/genomics program itself and what PIs are affiliated with that program. It's really the quality of the training that matters moreso than the name of the degree.
 
You are stressed over trivial differences.

1) determine what you really want to do outside of your PhD thesis work, and eventually, career trajectory at large: CS or MD/PhD: do you want to be a practicing physician or a practicing computer scientist.
2) apply to the correct program.
3) during the research portion, go work for someone whose research interests you. If this person cannot sponsor a degree in your home department, find a collaborator.

All things are "allowed". There will be administrative challenges if you do things that are unusual, but the goal is to 1) identify "stakeholders" (i.e. people in charge) 2) convince them that what you are trying to do makes sense in your career development. Everything else (i.e. if Eric Lander did a CS or a bioinformatics PhD and such nonsense) is a side show.
 
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