physician's spouses' career plans......

[fun8stuff]

I've been told quite adamantly by a relative that physician's spouses have a hard time having a career, having kids, and having a happy marriage. Is there any truth to this? I'm sure it depends on the type of physician, etc....

I'm just wondering because I plan on applying and going to med school and my pretty-much fiance has career asparations and dreams of her own, yet we both want to have a family (that includes kids). I don't want to go into this with false hopes of how our lifestyle will be. Thanks

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[lalee]

It all depends on the specialty. If you're planning on ortho or neuro, etc. then plan on sacrificing family time. But, there are many other specialties that are more conducive to family life. Of course, medschool/residency will be the most difficult, so perhaps waiting until you're through it to start a family would be ideal. I would recommend, however, PLANNING NOW! You need to discuss now what your parenting style is. If you want a parent to stay home while the other provides, then you need to get that out on the table now. I think it is absolutely possible to be a physician AND have a happy/strong marriage...it just takes communication and WORK. I think this advice is applicable to every marriage involving 2 career-minded individuals. I do feel, though, it would be in the best interest of the child to have atleast one parent at home...but that's just my opinion!
(ps..I'm a single mom, so I am not preaching...I know not all parents have the option..so no flaming! )

 

[smilez428]

I worked in an office with four pediatricians- (two of them were married to each other at one point-but ended up getting divorced) They are all in happy marriages with kids. All of them are married to non-medical profession people.

As for my self- my boyfriend (pretty much-fiance- will be soon)- and I have discussed this very same topic. We believe that someone should stay home with the kids if possible. So basically our plan is for him to take "paternity" leave, since it would be easier for him with his job (research).

As with all things in life- balancing a career and a marriage will take work- but it will be all worth it in the end.

 

[commymommy]

An honest answer from a physician spouse....

There are several factors that come into play....for the most part, it seems that the physician spouse's career does take a backseat during medical school and residency...especially if you end up having children during that time.

The bottom line is that medical school and residency in particular are very demanding...it is just very, very hard as a spouse to be supportive of your partner who is embarking on such a demanding career at the same time that you are trying to move forward with your own career plans. That's not to say that it is impossible, and certainly there are spouses who do it.

While my husband was a resident, I did take some part-time classes and when he did his fellowship, I finished my MS in mol. bio...but it had high costs for our relationship. Also, I was not regarded as highly professionally because I was just not as flexible. I had small children and so instead of sitting around the lab I set things up and then came back at night to finish them up. I also had to comporomise in the types of classes that I took...I couldn't be killing myself for an advanced pchem course while my husband was working 100 hours a week and my children needed me. I often felt that during training there was only room for 1 'high-powered' career in the marriage...at least with the desire to raise happy children and have a strong marriage. When I was pushing the envelope trying to finish my MS we had very little stress-free time together. If I could go back and do it again, I would have not gone back to school at that time.

Another reason that it is difficult for the spouse to have a career is all of the relocating...moving for med school, residency, fellowship, post-training jobs....It's tough to finish your education or establish yourself as a professional if you are moving every few years...that would hold true for any working professional. I have had friends who are lawyers, PhD Cell biologists, Neuroscientists, etc...who have found themselves 'stuck' after the Match came out and they ended up in the middle of nowhere. I had a friend who went from 'publish or perish' to unemployment and a complete inability to find even a part-time teaching job at the local university. She ended up deciding that those 5 years of residency would just have to be the time for them to have their children....and they had 3! By the time that they were done with residency, she had not worked in science for 5 years.....not good if you are trying to be a career scientist.

Another friend of mine is an attorney with one child. Her husband is also in surgery and she has had to take a job that she considers to be a step down. On a couple of occasions she has said that a law clerk could be doing what she is doing...writing briefs for a judge. It certainly is not where she saw herself when she was in law school...but at the same time, with the demands of residency, the moving and being a mom...she knew something had to give. The resident can't leave the hospital if their child is sick or if she needs someone to pick him up from daycare....so she had to compromise professionally.

Of course, for every example that I've given you here, you can come up with someone who has gone to med school, vet school, dental school etc with their spouse and they've managed it all together. I guess a lot depends on the couple, the marriage and the timing of the schooling/moving, etc.

I've pretty much come to the conclusion (after 10 years of marriage and 8 years of residency/fellowship, etc) that it is possible as a woman to 'have it all'...just not all at once. We have spent many years focusing on my husband's career and getting him through training and established as a doc....when our children are older, my time will come...and I know that he will offer me the same support that I gave him. It took me a long time to find peace with this...but I really have.

kris

 

[gwyn779]

It definitely depends on what type of career the spouse wants. My husband is about to finish paramedic school, which is actually a very compatible job. He works 2 or 3 days a week and that's it. Of course, right now he also has class and training hours, but that's why we don't have kids yet. He's actually very supportive of me and is willing to be home with any future kids, yet only having to work a couple days a week means he doesn't have to give that up. Also, paramedics don't really have a hard time relocating, which helps a lot.
I also worked with a family doc this spring who was married to a pediatrician and they had 5 kids! They worked it out (though I think they're insane for having 5 kids no matter what). I don't know what your girlfriend wants to do, but I definitely think it's possible.

 

[fun8stuff]

Thanks for all your great responses!

I think this issue is often overlooked in vain. Medicine is my dream, but also is a as-much-as-possible non-dsyfunctional family (if there is such a thing). I am not planning on orth or neuro solely because of the lifestyle. I have shadowed physicians of many diff specialities and I could see myself doing jsut about all of them.

My girlfriend is a marketing major, so she can find a job just about anywhere (preferably by a city). We are both still young (21 & 20), so we have some time to figure things out. I know that she would stay home with the kids, but just as it is my dream to be a doctor, so is it hers to have a successful career, and I really cannot justify my dream being anymore important than her's. I do not want to sit back in 10 yrs and feel bad for not letting her do her thing. I don't want her to have any regrets.

I do believe it would be best for one parent to be home, at least for the first 5 or 6 yrs. However, why should she be the one to do it over me? I can't justify her giving up her dreams for me, even though she would (or at least put them on hold).

Thanks for your detailed response Kris. I'm glad to hear that you have found peace. <b>Just curious, did you ever feel like a stranger to your husband because he was gone so much? </b> I guess I'm just wondering how busy it actually is... I know it's 80 hrs a week (max) for residency, but I just don't have a sense for how much that really is. <b>Are there vacations (holidays?)(haha... probably a dumb question)? So maybe having kids during residency would be best? </b>Given that I do not plan on doing any surgical specialty, would I totally miss out on my kid's first 3+ years or would I be around for at least some of it? <b> When is the best time to have kids? </b>

I am fortunate enough to have a very flexible girlfriend who is willing to work with me on everything, I have talked it alll out with her, I just am afraid that she doesn't fully understand or that she might later regret her decisions... etc etc... She is always quick to tell me that she will stick by me no matter what and she has already told me that my thing is more important, but I really feel bad every time she tells me that, even though she really feels that way with no regrets.... as of yet.

So, I guess the general consensus is that if you are willing to work and be flexible, and as long as your not a neuro, ortho, etc, it is possible.

Thanks again,
Dan

 

[commymommy]

Dan,

Did I ever feel like a stranger to my husband? Honestly..yes, there were some bad times in our marriage. I went into the med school/residency thing pretty much thinking that I knew what I was getting into, but just like parenthood...you can plan and prepare, but there is nothing like jumping in with both feet to realize what you've really gotten yourself into. I respected what he was doing and I was supportive...I went as far as to put notes/small gift in his coat pocket each day of his entire internship year (ah, young love!)....but by the end of his long residency/fellowship, we were barely speaking. I knew that what he was doing was important and that he was fulfilling a dream and I wanted desperately to be supportive of him...but we had started out being 'equals' and had ended up with him being the one with the career and me 'just' being at home as wife/mother. It was hard for me to adjust to..and then the fact that we didnt' have friends/familiy nearby just added to the whole mess.

His last year was probably our worst...we ended fellowship and drove the long trip form Fl to MN and barely spoke to each other...except to say how much we disliked each other Of course, truth be told, we still both loved each other very much..we were just both exhausted and worn down from the entire experience. Now, two years out of training, we are like newlyweds again...with three children and one on the way..... so residency/fellowship as tough as it was was not the end of our marriage.

The time constraints are tough....80 hours a week.. is still a LOT of time to be away. My experience is that clerkships (last two years of med school) really vary depending on the med school. Some schools have the students doing brutal q3/q4 call from the getgo..with third year being the worst and 4th yaer being much better...adn some are more laid back. That would be a question for the med student forums? Regardless of your choice of specialty, internship year will likely involve at least 80 hours a week...regulations or not...it means that in months of q3 call you will work all night...my husband also had to work all day the next day, but I dont' know if the new laws have changed that? You'll get your body adjusted only to do the same thing over and over again all month long.....you'll be working and your wife will be on her own with the kids/her job, etc....that's where it gets stressful....and it is hard to keep a marriage strong when there is so much physical time spent apart...but it IS possible.

In addition, it wasn't just that my dh was gone that time...he felt sort of beaten down when he got home...depending on his attending and the rotation, of course. He had CCU and ICU months where they didn't even let the residents leave the unit to go to the cafeteria....there were negative attitudes by attendings and hospital politics, etc...that contributed to him feeling unhappy/stressed during that time. So when he did get home, he was physically and emotionally drained...and irritated by the situation.

There are some residencies that are better than others..family practice is certainly less malignant than say...surgery. ER residencies can also be good because many offer shift work from the get-go (though you'd want to check the residency forums and talk with some people there) and then you can work shift work when you are finished.......

Specialties that can be more demanding are the surgical ones including OB...My husband did Internal Med and then Infectious Diseases as a fellowship. We thought the fellowship would be a cakewalk after residency...but it turned into our worst nightmare....Q2 call for two years.

It sounds like you and your girlfriend are both being very flexible and responsible about the decision-making process. The bottom line is that medicine and marriage can and do mix and it is possible to have a healthy marriage/happy family come out of training...but it takes more work and sacrifice...and your girlfriend may find she would have to settle for putting her career on hold for a couple of years to make both of your dreams a reality. You can both have it all...just not at the same time maybe....

When is the best time to have kids? Is there ever a good time We had our three during residency and certainly that worked out fine....it gave me a focus outside of myself and the residency.....the downside was that my husband wasn't able to be as involved as he would like to be. He really pushed for baby #4 (Gosh, it sounds so weird to say baby #4 ) and I think that the reason is that he wants to be able to be involved in the early years...and he didn't have that with our others...not really. Finances were also tight, but we made it work....most people I know ended up starting families during med school/residency...we always had the joke going about there being something in the water.

You should both follow your dreams and go into it with your eyes wide-open...be realistic about what will happen and what to expect and plan in advance how you will handle certain situations...this way no one is surprised, hurt, etc..and you will have a chance to problem-solve before you even get started...that means not having to make decisions in the heat of the battle.


Sorry for the ramble,

Kris

 

[fun8stuff]

Kris,

Thanks for your responses; they were really informative. I am going to have my gf read them!

Dan

 

[MJTig]

We have spent many years focusing on my husband's career and getting him through training and established as a doc....when our children are older, my time will come...and I know that he will offer me the same support that I gave him. It took me a long time to find peace with this...but I really have.

That right there is the important part, spouse A making sacrifices later to help spouse B move ahead with their dreams after sacrificing before. I have seen it come to that time where its B's turn to grow after raising children, career moves, etc... and A decides that he/she doesn't want to help or got used to how things are and won't budge. That is when it isn't fair and when I would be putting my foot down, and this is also where I see many divorces showing up if there isn't that willingness.

 

[doglover]

Commymommy - thanks for the wonderful insight. You could write a book and I would gladly read it. As the wife of a fourth year medical student who wants to do ob/gyn and then a fellowship it's great to hear from someone on the other end. We don't have any kids, we're thinking about probably starting that towards the end of residency...right now I'm just at a job making money because we need it with no clue as to what I really want to do or how to fit it in....anyway I'm rambling too but it is nice to hear your perspective. Thanks so much.

 

[im4real]

I have to agree with commonmommy about hard times in medical school and residency. We didn't really have hard times in medical school as we did in residency... Our marriage was so difficult during that time and finding the right outlet for me prove to be difficult as well.

Now that it's all behind us (med school & residency), it seems easier to talk about. It is so much better for my husband and our family life to be beyond residency and essentially "the boss" making decisions that are in the best interest of my husband and not residency...

I certainly agree with the statements made regarding what specialty the dr goes into... My husband owns his family practice, yet he also works at a local nursing home and moonlighting in the ER occasionally. This is simply to pay off med school loans and new property he purchased to build his new practice.

My sister was an Ob/Gyn and now just practices Gyn. She is married to a Radiologist and their life seems to be content with this lifestyle, although their three children have been in daycare all of their lives for the most part.

I guess it's a give and take situation. I certainly miss the times when my husband was home at 4:00pm from teaching middle schoolers and spent the whole evening just with me and our first-born. Those days are far gone. I never know quite when to put supper together for "the family", so now I take care of kids and me, and thank God for microwaves. He can just heat his meals up... sad, but true.

If I ever wanted to give up on our marriage it was in the grueling residency... but post-residency... I feel much better and know I can tolerate more because of lower stress and more time for family. I'll be glad when he lets go his moonlighting or nursing home though... He is giving up call after December which is a blessing...

Hope this adds to the discussion...
Christy

 

[delchrys]

my woman (not married yet) is graduating from med school this year (may 2005), and will be doing her surgical residency in michigan, pennsylvania, or ohio. i am graduating (i can hope) from law school in july 2005. so, i will need to study for whatever bar exam in the same state where she gets matched. once there, and a year or so goes by, i really want kids, and she has expressed strong interest in having children as well. my question is this--she wants to be a pediatric surgeon. when in god's name will she be able to have a few kids in that hell schedule? from what i understand you screw your fellow residents in surgery if you take any extended time off, and it isn't exactly easy to crap out a kid and then go to work the next day.

i guess i am having a hard time seeing the 'when' of the whole having kids part of the plan. i am also nervous about how childrearing will go--i'd love to raise them full time, at least for a few years, but i don't know how well we will be able to eat that plus over 150k in student loans.

are we just fooling ourselves thinking this is doable? it's one thing when the guy is the doc and the woman is the one who gives up her career, but when you reverse that, the child-bearer is also the one working the uberintense BS schedule from hell, which becomes problematic.

 

[Tofurkey]

I am also a Dr's wife--a resident more specifically. He is in his second year of residency, and has two more to go. We just got married three weeks ago. What am I doing? I graudated law school and then entered a post-bacc program. I just finished that last month and am now applying to med schools to start fall '05 or defer if we have to go out of state and start fall 06. So what that means is I'll be an M1 when he is in his last year of residency. So the timing is a bit odd. I'm not sure how that will all play out. This year I'm looking for a full-time job to pay the bills while I take upper bio night classes. We're both 27 so I don't know when kids will come into play, but prob. when I am a 4th year med student.

He works about 80 hours per week as a res. Does this seem like a lot to me? Yes and no. He goes in at 5 and comes home around 5-6 but then he has to study and goes to bed around 9 each night. So during the week we pretty much eat dinner together and that's it. I feel during the week that I get no time with him at all, and yes this really bothers me sometimes. Then he has call about once-twice a week, and he has all his weekends off, but he usually spends at least one weekend day studying. Since we've been together so long, I don't know what it would be like to have a spouse who works a normal 40 or 50 hour per week job with no studying to do. It's the studying that's the worst part--an 80 hour per week job I can deal with if the work gets left there and that's that.

What is it like to have a spouse who works only 40 hours per week? It must be heaven.

Anyhow, overall I feel we don't have much time together and that bothers me, since we are newlyweds and while we were engaged it was the same story.

 

[cellochik]

I'm planning on doing my masters in cello performance while my boyfriend is in his 2nd and 3rd years of med. school. Right now we're living apart (different states) while I finish my undergrad. and he's in his 1st year. It's easy to think right now that this (living apart) is harder than what it will be when we live together again, but I don't know. I think the best advice I've read is to keep yourself busy. I've taken this to mean that I need to give everthing I have to my music and because of that I feel a lot better. I'm very excited to continue my education in my field and it will be nice to be busy while my boyfriend is REALLY busy. I guess the only thing we don't have planned is what I'll be doing during his residency, but I really think everything will work out as long as you focus on this only being a short time of your life. There are so many years later that will be better because you went through all of this.

 

[QuietSylph]

are we just fooling ourselves thinking this is doable? it's one thing when the guy is the doc and the woman is the one who gives up her career, but when you reverse that, the child-bearer is also the one working the uberintense BS schedule from hell, which becomes problematic.

I had two children while in medical school and just graduated this past June. My husband stayed home from the beginning to take care of them, and we survived on my student loans--which was not pretty as I now owe almost $200K. Right now I am taking a year off after graduation and working from home so I can spend more time with our younger daughter, and then my husband will resume being primary caretaker next July when I start my residency and our littlest one is 18 months old (her older sister will be 4 then).

I did choose to go into pathology, which is a far more bearable specialty than pediatric surgery ( ). However, there will still be some months where I am gone for 12-14 hours every weekday and come home only to eat dinner, study for awhile, and fall into bed. You and your partner would have to really fight hard and plan carefully to put family first, because the assumption in medicine is always that you should be working more, harder, etc. As my husband will tell you, medicine is still just not that family-friendly a field... doctors are so warped we think 80 hour work weeks are terrific. Anyways, good luck -- I am glad I made the choices I did, but it has been a very difficult road. People can PM me if they have any additional questions.