Pittsburgh Zoo to review use of dogs to control elephants

[WildZoo]

Even hamsters can make you incredibly sick......

*ducks and runs away*

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[dyachei]

Even hamsters can make you incredibly sick......

*ducks and runs away*

to be fair, I would have bitten someone, too. In that case, it was a tech that was uncontrollable....

 

[DVMDream]

to be fair, I would have bitten someone, too. In that case, it was a tech that was uncontrollable....

Sometimes, the techs need to be leashed and muzzled.

 

[dyachei]

Sometimes, the techs need to be leashed and muzzled.

That tech needed indirect contact only.

 

[pinkpuppy9]

Any animal can be completely unpredictable. Horses, cows, and dogs can be uncontrollable when they want to be.

Yes, I know that. But you have a hell of a better chance with a dog/horse/cow than you do with an elephant. I'm not saying a horse, dog or a cow can't kill you, they certainly can. Also, those animals are much more likely to be euthanized if they exhibit aggression or unpredictability. If you try to euthanize an elephant with killings under its belt...well, good luck. You might be successful.

The keeper killing they had happened when they were walking the elephants through the zoo before opening, something very routine. The keeper tried to encourage a mother elephant to continue walking, and she pinned him to the ground and crushed him to death. "Nothing unusual happened to provoke her." "She is our most docile elephant." Unpredictable behavior from an animal that can pick you up and crush every bone in your body with single foot. No thanks. I vote preventing direct-contact related keeper deaths.

As for there being a grey areas, that's totally true. However, I don't think it's wise to leave things up for interpretation like that. These animals aren't bonding with people like zoos like to say they are. It's more of a "You bring the food, and I'll tolerate that." There should be no amount of trust between a keeper and an animal IMO. You could argue the same for dogs, horses, and cows.

 

[dyachei]

Yes, I know that. But you have a hell of a better chance with a dog/horse/cow than you do with an elephant. I'm not saying a horse, dog or a cow can't kill you, they certainly can. Also, those animals are much more likely to be euthanized if they exhibit aggression or unpredictability. If you try to euthanize an elephant with killings under its belt...well, good luck. You might be successful.

The keeper killing they had happened when they were walking the elephants through the zoo before opening, something very routine. The keeper tried to encourage a mother elephant to continue walking, and she pinned him to the ground and crushed him to death. "Nothing unusual happened to provoke her." "She is our most docile elephant." Unpredictable behavior from an animal that can pick you up and crush every bone in your body with single foot. No thanks. I vote preventing direct-contact related keeper deaths.

As for there being a grey areas, that's totally true. However, I don't think it's wise to leave things up for interpretation like that. These animals aren't bonding with people like zoos like to say they are. It's more of a "You bring the food, and I'll tolerate that." There should be no amount of trust between a keeper and an animal IMO. You could argue the same for dogs, horses, and cows.

yeah, but it's still comparing apples to oranges to say that they are in the same category as tigers. Elephants in asia are very important to some livelihoods. The bold is the exact point I'm making.

FWIW....a cow could crush you almost as easily if they so desired.

 

[DVMDream]

FWIW....a cow could crush you almost as easily if they so desired.

This. Same with a horse. Once an animal hits a certain weight, it really doesn't matter how much more weight you add, if it stomps on you, it's going to kill you

 

[dyachei]

This. Same with a horse. Once an animal hits a certain weight, it really doesn't matter how much more weight you add, if it stomps on you, it's going to kill you

and they can spook really easily. I vote no direct contact with them. they really might kill you during something routine.

 

[WildZoo]

There's a question since I know next to nothing about LA and equine medicine, when vets are working on horses and cows and such, are they restrained or anything? Or just kinda standing there?

 

[DVMDream]

"Nothing unusual happened to provoke her." "She is our most docile elephant." Unpredictable behavior from an animal that can pick you up and crush every bone in your body with single foot.

See, this is the thing, was it really that nothing happened, or is it maybe we don't know enough about elephant behavior to pick up on subtle clues they are getting agitated? And any animal can be unpredictable, heck my own cat is every day. A horse, cow, bull, sow, boar, etc could all easily toss you like a rag doll and crush you with one foot.

 

[DVMDream]

There's a question since I know next to nothing about LA and equine medicine, when vets are working on horses and cows and such, are they restrained or anything? Or just kinda standing there?

Depends on the situation, the farm, the set up, etc. Usually you try to restrain them in some way if you can. But you still have to get them restrained first.

 

[Gwenevre]

There's a question since I know next to nothing about LA and equine medicine, when vets are working on horses and cows and such, are they restrained or anything? Or just kinda standing there?

Typically, cows and horses have chutes. Cows get the headgate/squeeze, horses get a bar across the chest and under the tail, with a handler on the lead rope.

 

[DVMDream]

and they can spook really easily. I vote no direct contact with them. they really might kill you during something routine.

There were some horses I was seriously concerned might hurt someone. Especially when they were all agitated by the thunder storm outside while we were doing exams.

 

[DVMDream]

Typically, cows and horses have chutes. Cows get the headgate/squeeze, horses get a bar across the chest and under the tail, with a handler on the lead rope.

In an ideal world. That's hospital medicine and maybe available on a nice farm. Otherwise, you're rigging up your own restraint.

 

[pinkpuppy9]

yeah, but it's still comparing apples to oranges to say that they are in the same category as tigers. Elephants in asia are very important to some livelihoods. The bold is the exact point I'm making.

FWIW....a cow could crush you almost as easily if they so desired.

See above where I brought up the Thai elephant owner who was gored to death. I'm not saying elephants aren't important to people elsewhere in the world, but again, it's another example of their highly unpredictable behavior. If anything, felids and other predators are more predictable....you know they're going to attack.

Cows can totally crush you. Horses can kill you. We've covered this. People work with cows and horses every day, not suspecting to get injured or killed by them, but now we're comparing domesticated animals to wildlife. I don't think the keeper expected to get killed, either. The problem with direct contact is that keepers are often under the impression that their animals are bonded to them on an emotional level. Animals definitely have their preferences and routines, but tolerance gets mistaken for trust or even appreciation/love. I've seen it, and it can be quite dangerous. Resting your hand on a barrier while baby-talking a chimp, sticking your finger in the barrier to scratch the bear's nose. One slip is all it takes for the animal to decide it didn't like what you just did.

There's a question since I know next to nothing about LA and equine medicine, when vets are working on horses and cows and such, are they restrained or anything? Or just kinda standing there?

In my experience, it depends on the procedure. I've seen a lot of sedation used, but that could be because I was present for more involved procedures. I know people say not to tie a horse up if you can help it, apparently they're more likely to get agitated once they realize they're stuck. There's also squeeze gates and chutes.

See, this is the thing, was it really that nothing happened, or is it maybe we don't know enough about elephant behavior to pick up on subtle clues they are getting agitated. And any animal can be unpredictable, heck my own cat is every day. A horse, cow, bull, sow, etc could all easily toss you like a rag doll and crush you with one foot.

The unusual thing was probably that she stopped walking and interpreted her keeper's encouragement as a threat to her and her calf. We don't know much about the vast majority of species we hold captive (which is why whoever comes out with the first paper on something is automatically the world's expert ).

 

[dyachei]

See above where I brought up the Thai elephant owner who was gored to death.

would you like me to quote the million times that a horse has killed it's handler? or a cow? That story means nothing in this context.

There's a question since I know next to nothing about LA and equine medicine, when vets are working on horses and cows and such, are they restrained or anything? Or just kinda standing there?

typically restrained. However, there are many times that you must walk a cow or horse to a treatment area.

 

[WildZoo]

Thanks for the answers guys!

 

[pinkpuppy9]

would you like me to quote the million times that a horse has killed it's handler? or a cow? That story means nothing in this context.


typically restrained. However, there are many times that you must walk a cow or horse to a treatment area.

Yes, but horses and cows are nearly in direct contact 100% of the time. And they can be dangerous. We'd have even more keeper deaths if more zoos allowed direct contact. More horses = more deaths.

You mentioned elephants being important elsewhere in the world, so I mentioned that they kill their handlers there, too. I don't think we disagree with each other, I just don't understand the points you're trying to make here.

 

[DVMDream]

Cows can totally crush you. Horses can kill you. We've covered this. People work with cows and horses every day, not suspecting to get injured or killed by them, but now we're comparing domesticated animals to wildlife. I don't think the keeper expected to get killed, either. The problem with direct contact is that keepers are often under the impression that their animals are bonded to them on an emotional level. Animals definitely have their preferences and routines, but tolerance gets mistaken for trust or even appreciation/love.

How is this any different than with horses or cattle? I doubt anyone that's been seriously injured by their horse hasn't thought that their horse loves them.

And people who work with horses and cattle do anticipate the potential for danger, that's why there are safety measures taken when working with these animals.

 

[dyachei]

Yes, but horses and cows are nearly in direct contact 100% of the time. And they can be dangerous. We'd have even more keeper deaths if more zoos allowed direct contact. More horses = more deaths.

You mentioned elephants being important elsewhere in the world, so I mentioned that they kill their handlers there, too. I don't think we disagree with each other, I just don't understand the points you're trying to make here.

the point I'm making is that every animal is dangerous. We've learned a lot about behavior with horses and cows. That's the major difference. eliminating direct contact WILL hurt education and conservation efforts.

 

[pinkpuppy9]

How is this any different than with horses or cattle? I doubt anyone that's been seriously injured by their horse hasn't thought that their horse loves them.

And people who work with horses and cattle do anticipate the potential for danger, that's why there are safety measures taken when working with these animals.

Horses and cows are not wild animals.

Edit: At least the horses we're referring to aren't wild, lol.

the point I'm making is that every animal is dangerous. We've learned a lot about behavior with horses and cows. That's the major difference. eliminating direct contact WILL hurt education and conservation efforts.

That I do completely disagree with. Very few zoos use direct contact with the more dangerous animals. Those that do not are not lacking in great education/conservation programs. Why do you feel that direct contact is required for conservation and education?

 

[DVMDream]

Horses and cows are not wild animals.

And this matters why?

You're saying the animals are dangerous and unpredictable therefore we shouldn't have direct contact with them. However, many of our "domestic" animals can also be dangerous and unpredictable. The fact they are "domestic" and not "wild" is completely irrelevant.

 

[dyachei]

Horses and cows are not wild animals.

Edit: At least the horses we're referring to aren't wild, lol.

That I do completely disagree with. Very few zoos use direct contact with the more dangerous animals. Those that do not are not lacking in great education/conservation programs. Why do you feel that direct contact is required for conservation and education?

what is your definition of dangerous? Every animal is dangerous. Just because we tend to use cows and horses doesn't mean they aren't. This is the area I disagree with you on.

Direct contact will ALWAYS leave visitors with a longer lasting memory. When I lived in Singapore, the zoo there allowed elephant rides. Kids in my school went and talked about it for YEARS. Do you think they are more or less likely to want to contribute to conservation efforts?

 

[WildZoo]

what is your definition of dangerous? Every animal is dangerous. Just because we tend to use cows and horses doesn't mean they aren't. This is the area I disagree with you on.

Direct contact will ALWAYS leave visitors with a longer lasting memory. When I lived in Singapore, the zoo there allowed elephant rides. Kids in my school went and talked about it for YEARS. Do you think they are more or less likely to want to contribute to conservation efforts?

For this case though, where it isn't direct contact with visitors but with keepers (do any US zoos allow visitor contact with elephants?) do you think there are education/conservation/other drawbacks to disallowing direct contact outside of the situations that the AZA outlined?

 

[dyachei]

For this case though, where it isn't direct contact with visitors but with keepers (do any US zoos allow visitor contact with elephants?) do you think there are education/conservation/other drawbacks to disallowing direct contact outside of the situations that the AZA outlined?

There are certain benefits, I think. Better training, better interaction with the public, better interaction with vet staff (and less stress) - these are just my opinions. However, anyone must be very aware at all times what dangers there were. I would say that an elephant and her calf do pose a threat - moreso than other elephants. And I think indirect contact should be attempted in those cases. and with bull elephants at all times.

 

[WildZoo]

Just for reference because I don't think it was posted here and I had to search through the documents again to find it, this was the part of the 2011 updates that outlined the direct contact restrictions

By September 1, 2012, amend their existing elephant management plans to include clear protocols for the frequency and duration when elephant care professionals and elephants may share the same unrestricted space for the specific purposes of required health and
welfare procedures, transport, research, active breeding and calf management programs, and medical treatments and testing.

The rest of the document is here

 

[pinkpuppy9]

There are certain benefits, I think. Better training, better interaction with the public, better interaction with vet staff (and less stress) - these are just my opinions. However, anyone must be very aware at all times what dangers there were. I would say that an elephant and her calf do pose a threat - moreso than other elephants. And I think indirect contact should be attempted in those cases. and with bull elephants at all times.

Oh, don't get me wrong. I'd LOVE to be up next to an elephant. It will of course be a long-lasting memory. Is riding an elephant really the best way to promote their conservation, though?

Also, if I do end up in zoo medicine, it would make my day to have any animal tolerate my presence as their veterinarian, lol.

For this case though, where it isn't direct contact with visitors but with keepers (do any US zoos allow visitor contact with elephants?) do you think there are education/conservation/other drawbacks to disallowing direct contact outside of the situations that the AZA outlined?

I don't think any zoos allow guest contact with elephants. Perhaps tours of the facilities, though.

 

[dyachei]

Is riding an elephant really the best way to promote their conservation, though?

honestly, you may say that it isn't, but experiences like that promote increases in donations - we don't live in an ideal world. So I think we need to consider that. It isn't black and white. So I think that they should be treated well, live in natural environments (or as close as possible), and if 1-2 elephants have the temperament to do things like that, it is more beneficial to the species as a whole. Just like while there are a ton of issues with seaworld, they do have a big role in conservation.

 

[WildZoo]

There are certain benefits, I think. Better training, better interaction with the public, better interaction with vet staff (and less stress) - these are just my opinions. However, anyone must be very aware at all times what dangers there were. I would say that an elephant and her calf do pose a threat - moreso than other elephants. And I think indirect contact should be attempted in those cases. and with bull elephants at all times.

It does make sense that if they are more used to interacting directly with people, there would be less stress in situations where it is necessary. Hopefully I'll get some more zoo experience in the near future so I can develop a more informed opinion of my own. Right now I'm stuck on whether limiting free contact completely protects the keepers and other staff or just makes the situations where it is necessary more dangerous. And then considering what is best for the animals on an individual level as well as further implications like what trh was talking about earlier with public perception of the relationship between humans and wild animals. Definitely not a black and white issue!

 

[pinkpuppy9]

It does make sense that if they are more used to interacting directly with people, there would be less stress in situations where it is necessary. Hopefully I'll get some more zoo experience in the near future so I can develop a more informed opinion of my own. Right now I'm stuck on whether limiting free contact completely protects the keepers and other staff or just makes the situations where it is necessary more dangerous. And then considering what is best for the animals on an individual level as well as further implications like what trh was talking about earlier with public perception of the relationship between humans and wild animals. Definitely not a black and white issue!

I mean the fact that the AZA recognizes that there are instances where direct contact is needed says it all to me. I just don't think we need to be playing with zoos out in the yard.

 

[WildZoo]

I don't think any zoos allow guest contact with elephants. Perhaps tours of the facilities, though.

There are definitely facility tours, I think it was actually at the Pittsburgh Zoo where they let you do a walk through of the indoor part of the elephant enclosure - with bars in between the visitor area and the elephants of course.

I say I think it was there because honestly I've visited that zoo and the one here so many times that they've started to run together But I'm pretty sure it was in Pittsburgh.

 

[pinkpuppy9]

There are definitely facility tours, I think it was actually at the Pittsburgh Zoo where they let you do a walk through of the indoor part of the elephant enclosure - with bars in between the visitor area and the elephants of course.

I say I think it was there because honestly I've visited that zoo and the one here so many times that they've started to run together But I'm pretty sure it was in Pittsburgh.

Facility tours are always so cool for me, but there's always that one person that says "This is horrible! These pens are so small!" Sigh.

 

[dyachei]

There are definitely facility tours, I think it was actually at the Pittsburgh Zoo where they let you do a walk through of the indoor part of the elephant enclosure - with bars in between the visitor area and the elephants of course.

I say I think it was there because honestly I've visited that zoo and the one here so many times that they've started to run together But I'm pretty sure it was in Pittsburgh.

Knoxville zoo had a similar set up

 

[WildZoo]

Knoxville zoo had a similar set up

I wish I'd had time to visit when I was there for my interview.

 

[dyachei]

I wish I'd had time to visit when I was there for my interview.

UTK works with them for their vet care, so I'm sure you'll have opportunities.

 

[WildZoo]

UTK works with them for their vet care, so I'm sure you'll have opportunities.

Yeah I'm excited about that

 

[battie]

There are definitely facility tours, I think it was actually at the Pittsburgh Zoo where they let you do a walk through of the indoor part of the elephant enclosure - with bars in between the visitor area and the elephants of course.

I say I think it was there because honestly I've visited that zoo and the one here so many times that they've started to run together But I'm pretty sure it was in Pittsburgh.

Denver Zoo also allows the public to walk through the old pachyderm house, though I'm not sure about our new addition that's only a few years old.

 

[deleted498041]

I'm not specifically comparing behaviors of the species, but the inherent danger of direct contact with either type of animal. Sorry to be unclear. IMO, you can't pick and choose what you have contact with. Basically, they're saying they know elephants can be very dangerous (after all, they lost one of their own keepers), but they choose to go in anyways. You don't go in with gorillas, chimps, bears, etc. Contact with venomous reptiles is extremely limited, and the entire herp team is often present (a lot of zoos do a 'hot potato' line). I just cannot wrap my head around why this zoo is making it seem like the rest of the world is the bad guy for trying to put an end to direct contact.

Do you mean tourists or veterinary professionals? I know, at least for pandas, direct contact for scientists and veterinarians is necessary and often without sedation.

 

[WildZoo]

The lemurs at my local zoo get direct contact with their keepers. I was so jealous when I was volunteering in that area, because I had to stand behind a barrier. Sad.

 

[pinkpuppy9]

Do you mean tourists or veterinary professionals? I know, at least for pandas, direct contact for scientists and veterinarians is necessary and often without sedation.

Both, really. True direct contact with captive pandas is supposed to happen only when medically needed, and they're just as dangerous as any other bear. I know a lot of exams happen just under sedation, not always anesthesia....even with primates. A lot of direct contact happens then, but I think it depends on the length and stress-level of the exam. Any other direct contact, especially for pandas slated for release, is supposed to happen with you in a giant panda suit. That's my dream job right there. Dressing up as a whooping crane would be fun, too. I think the costumed interactions happen in China more often, if not always, though.

For GP's specifically, the captive ones (mostly the cubs) are supposed to be returned to the 'wild,' so direct contact is supposed to be severely limited. However, the success rate of the released pandas is pretty poor, so I don't know how often people stick to that. I looked a while back to see if I could actually read the China-US panda agreement and see what the stipulations were, but no luck.

PS: Giant Pandas are my favorite animal I interned at a zoo where the current chief vet of the National Zoo used to work. I've always wondered if I could somehow work my way in to an internship/externship at the National Zoo that way. Connections, connections, connections!

The lemurs at my local zoo get direct contact with their keepers. I was so jealous when I was volunteering in that area, because I had to stand behind a barrier. Sad.

I've been in my local zoo's lemur exhibit a few times. Thought it was super cool until the last time I was in there when a fight broke out, lol. They have some pretty decent teeth.

 

[deleted498041]

Both, really. True direct contact with captive pandas is supposed to happen only when medically needed, and they're just as dangerous as any other bear. I know a lot of exams happen just under sedation, not always anesthesia....even with primates. A lot of direct contact happens then, but I think it depends on the length and stress-level of the exam. Any other direct contact, especially for pandas slated for release, is supposed to happen with you in a giant panda suit. That's my dream job right there. Dressing up as a whooping crane would be fun, too. I think the costumed interactions happen in China more often, if not always, though.

For GP's specifically, the captive ones (mostly the cubs) are supposed to be returned to the 'wild,' so direct contact is supposed to be severely limited. However, the success rate of the released pandas is pretty poor, so I don't know how often people stick to that. I looked a while back to see if I could actually read the China-US panda agreement and see what the stipulations were, but no luck.

PS: Giant Pandas are my favorite animal I interned at a zoo where the current chief vet of the National Zoo used to work. I've always wondered if I could somehow work my way in to an internship/externship at the National Zoo that way. Connections, connections, connections!

I've been in my local zoo's lemur exhibit a few times. Thought it was super cool until the last time I was in there when a fight broke out, lol. They have some pretty decent teeth.

One of the world's leading experts in panda repro works for my school, and he does a presentation on it each year for our therio club. "True direct contact" with captive pandas happens as little as possible but they are not always dressed in a giant panda suit with the cubs or pandas slated for release, and being non-sedated (unsedated?) is not uncommon. I remember him saying they proceed extremely, extremely slowly when trying to determine if a panda is pregnant and that's because they don't always sedate.

The professor I'm talking about also works for the National Zoo so I know that the methods he speaks of are used there.

 

[pinkpuppy9]

One of the world's leading experts in panda repro works for my school, and he does a presentation on it each year for our therio club. "True direct contact" with captive pandas happens as little as possible but they are not always dressed in a giant panda suit with the cubs or pandas slated for release, and being non-sedated (unsedated?) is not uncommon. I remember him saying they proceed extremely, extremely slowly when trying to determine if a panda is pregnant and that's because they don't always sedate.

The professor I'm talking about also works for the National Zoo so I know that the methods he speaks of are used there.

Yeah I think the teams in China are more excited about the costumes. They physically proceed slowly in case she's particularly defensive?

I hope I didn't come across as trying to start a pissing contest about who knows who or anything. I just started to ramble about wanting that externship.

 

[LetItSnow]

and they can spook really easily. I vote no direct contact with them. they really might kill you during something routine.

Couple of my classmates had to bail out of a narrow stall when they were looking at one of our docile teaching horses and it went bat**** crazy and started double-barreling the wall in their general vicinity.

Clearly, vet students shouldn't be allowed to work with horses. I vote preventing direct-contact related veterinary student injuries.

I dunno. I really don't like it when someone else (for example, @pinkpuppy9) declares what risks someone else should be allowed to undertake. I mean, within certain contexts. If a keeper wants to work in physical proximity to an elephant and understands the risks and it's not detrimental to the elephant .......... who am I to tell them not to take that risk? Just seems like more 'moral compassing' to declare that someone else shouldn't do that.

.... which is different than arguing that elephants and the general public shouldn't mix. That's a case where the general public are likely not to understand the risk, and it makes sense to set up rules to manage that risk on their (uneducated) behalf. I think we have an obligation to advocate on behalf of the elephant (and I don't really know what the right answer is to whether there is benefit to the elephant to personal contact with people.....), and we have an obligation to within reasonable limits protect the general public. Beyond that ...

I vote preventing direct-contact related keeper deaths.

Who are you to vote on behalf of the keeper? It's not your life, it's not your business to dictate what risks they accept in return for accomplishing their goals.

I really dislike it when people dictate overly-much what risks other people can undertake. (But that also applies the other way around - I wouldn't be thrilled with a facility dictating that a keeper take risks that weren't clearly agreed upon and spelled out when the employee took the job.)

Sometimes, the techs need to be leashed and muzzled.

Kinky.

 

[WildZoo]

I've been in my local zoo's lemur exhibit a few times. Thought it was super cool until the last time I was in there when a fight broke out, lol. They have some pretty decent teeth.

I think here they have more contact with them because they have a couple that are diabetic and it's the best way for the keepers to be able to monitor their blood sugar and give them their insulin.

The places where there is the most free/direct contact that I've seen are aviaries (including the aviaries within a larger zoo). I guess nobody worries about bird attacks, but I've met some pretty mean geese in my time...plus, evil penguins And I was once warned when cleaning a hadada ibis enclosure to stay alert because they go for the eyes if they get upset

 

[pinkpuppy9]

Couple of my classmates had to bail out of a narrow stall when they were looking at one of our docile teaching horses and it went bat**** crazy and started double-barreling the wall in their general vicinity.

Clearly, vet students shouldn't be allowed to work with horses. I vote preventing direct-contact related veterinary student injuries.

I dunno. I really don't like it when someone else (for example, @pinkpuppy9) declares what risks someone else should be allowed to undertake. I mean, within certain contexts. If a keeper wants to work in physical proximity to an elephant and understands the risks and it's not detrimental to the elephant .......... who am I to tell them not to take that risk? Just seems like more 'moral compassing' to declare that someone else shouldn't do that.

.... which is different than arguing that elephants and the general public shouldn't mix. That's a case where the general public are likely not to understand the risk, and it makes sense to set up rules to manage that risk on their (uneducated) behalf. I think we have an obligation to advocate on behalf of the elephant (and I don't really know what the right answer is to whether there is benefit to the elephant to personal contact with people.....), and we have an obligation to within reasonable limits protect the general public. Beyond that ...



Who are you to vote on behalf of the keeper? It's not your life, it's not your business to dictate what risks they accept in return for accomplishing their goals.

I really dislike it when people dictate overly-much what risks other people can undertake. (But that also applies the other way around - I wouldn't be thrilled with a facility dictating that a keeper take risks that weren't clearly agreed upon and spelled out when the employee took the job.)



Kinky.

Lol. Okay LIS. Seeing as how I've worked as a keeper myself, I stand by my opinion. Sometimes, keepers are put in a lot of bad situations. Granted, there are occupational hazards you can't avoid. Some, you can. Relax.

Edit: Also, next time you're working in a zoo, let me know when you're relocated to another department (or worse) because the risks are "optional," so you choose not to take them. I'm not saying all zoos do things like this, but I've seen it happen in front of my eyes.

 

[pinkpuppy9]

I think here they have more contact with them because they have a couple that are diabetic and it's the best way for the keepers to be able to monitor their blood sugar and give them their insulin.

The places where there is the most free/direct contact that I've seen are aviaries (including the aviaries within a larger zoo). I guess nobody worries about bird attacks, but I've met some pretty mean geese in my time...plus, evil penguins And I was once warned when cleaning a hadada ibis enclosure to stay alert because they go for the eyes if they get upset

Ibis, heron, and other similarly-beaked birds are tough! The wildlife place I worked at made everyone wear helmets in addition to goggles while working with them. Before that rule was made, a guy got pecked right on the top of his head. Took an hour for it to stop bleeding.

 

[WildZoo]

Ibis, heron, and other similarly-beaked birds are tough! The wildlife place I worked at made everyone wear helmets in addition to goggles while working with them. Before that rule was made, a guy got pecked right on the top of his head. Took an hour for it to stop bleeding.

Ouch. As far as I know no one at the aviary I interned at had gotten hurt in a while, but a lot of the birds they have on exhibit are hand-raised (the ones that are set for release don't go on exhibit). They're more careful around the rehab birds and the birds of prey. Though they did have one lovely red-tailed hawk who started out as a rehab case 20 years ago and ended up staying as an education bird because she never fully recovered. She was a sweetheart Her keepers spent a lot of time in contact with her because that's what she had been used to most of her life. Most of the ones I worked with were hospitalized (a lot of them were very, very old) so they never caused much trouble.

Except the penguins.

We also got wildlife dropoffs at the clinic I worked at last year and were only armed with raptor gloves. That was a fun time

 

[dyachei]

The penguins I worked with were fairly docile, I guess.

 

[WildZoo]

The penguins I worked with were fairly docile, I guess.

To be fair, it seems the few that were hospitalized were the more cranky of the bunch - maybe they were cranky bwcause they were hospitalized. And since I was a hospital intern, I only got to work with them (and the babies). But I was told by the penguin keepers that they could be very mean in general.

They did a daily penguin parade around a whole section of the aviary with the ones who were still on exhibit and it was quite possibly one of the cutest things I have ever seen. They weren't mean enough to try to attack the public at least

 

[pinkpuppy9]

To be fair, it seems the few that were hospitalized were the more cranky of the bunch - maybe they were cranky bwcause they were hospitalized. And since I was a hospital intern, I only got to work with them (and the babies). But I was told by the penguin keepers that they could be very mean in general.

They did a daily penguin parade around a whole section of the aviary with the ones who were still on exhibit and it was quite possibly one of the cutest things I have ever seen. They weren't mean enough to try to attack the public at least

I thought penguins were going to be super cranky too. The ones I worked with didn't seem phased I was there. My biggest concern was slipping and falling in the pool in front of the public