Please give your input: IMGs chances/strategy after CS failure

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.

derailed

Full Member
10+ Year Member
Joined
Oct 12, 2011
Messages
74
Reaction score
0
Average step 1 score, good CK score. CS failure (data gathering. was sick but who'll believe me?). Retaking asap. Scores will be available mid-Dec at the earliest. That's beyond the application submission deadline for programs. And they want IMGs to have all scores at the time of application submission.

So zero chances?
Honest input/advice appreciated.

Members don't see this ad.
 
Guys I would really appreciate some input.
 
I know a friend who prematched last year with good Step 1 and 2 scores and one CS attempt. I think your chances are still good with the CS failure but not having the pass result ready for the current match season might work against you.
 
I know a friend who prematched last year with good Step 1 and 2 scores and one CS attempt. I think your chances are still good with the CS failure but not having the pass result ready for the current match season might work against you.

Thanks. And was that friend an IMG? And you say prematched...so someplace ranked at the very bottom, right? (yeah, I know, I should be grateful to have any kind of spot at all...still, it takes time to make the psychological adjustment).
 
Thanks. And was that friend an IMG? And you say prematched...so someplace ranked at the very bottom, right? (yeah, I know, I should be grateful to have any kind of spot at all...still, it takes time to make the psychological adjustment).


Yeah he's an IMG, step scores in 250's. He had a brilliant application apart from the CS failure. He got 12 interviews in total and prematched at his 2nd or 3rd. He ended up in a decent non-malignant community program and seems to be doing very well there. All in all, I'd say once you pass your CS your chances may not be so dire.
 
Average step 1 score, good CK score. CS failure (data gathering. was sick but who'll believe me?). Retaking asap. Scores will be available mid-Dec at the earliest. That's beyond the application submission deadline for programs. And they want IMGs to have all scores at the time of application submission.

So zero chances?
Honest input/advice appreciated.

Chances are never zero. But to some extent IMGs have more to prove in terms of patient interaction, and so the CS is focused on by a lot of fields. We've all seen plenty of IMGs who know a ton of medicine, but fall on their face in terms of patient skills. Cultural and language issues can render one a very ineffective intern. So I think it's reasonable to say this will be a hurdle. Pass it. If the timing prohibits an application this year, try to line up something workwise or volunteerwise that will give programs added comfort that you have patient interaction skills, and try again next year.
 
Chances are never zero. But to some extent IMGs have more to prove in terms of patient interaction, and so the CS is focused on by a lot of fields. We've all seen plenty of IMGs who know a ton of medicine, but fall on their face in terms of patient skills. Cultural and language issues can render one a very ineffective intern. So I think it's reasonable to say this will be a hurdle. Pass it. If the timing prohibits an application this year, try to line up something workwise or volunteerwise that will give programs added comfort that you have patient interaction skills, and try again next year.


Ha,Ha ,CS exam is nothing but another facet of the US terrorism against innocent IMGs!
Here is another victim of the American CS terror!
Derailed,do not blame yurself! How can the bastard ignorant SPs evaluate a doctor's clinical skills?Only foolish Americans can believe in this mockery.
It is pertnent to mention that none of the other countries who conduct Clinical Skills exams,like Canada,UK,Australia,NZ give the SPs any power of passing/failing any applicants in the Clinical Skills exam.There r physicians present in the exam room who evaluate the test-takers.
Derailed, this CS failure is really going to make things very difficult for u in future.
The guy who has got a residency despite CS failure might have had strong recommendations from someone within the program or from someone who knew the PD in the program where he matched.
 
Ha,Ha ,CS exam is nothing but another facet of the US terrorism against innocent IMGs!
Here is another victim of the American CS terror!
Derailed,do not blame yurself! How can the bastard ignorant SPs evaluate a doctor's clinical skills?Only foolish Americans can believe in this mockery.
It is pertnent to mention that none of the other countries who conduct Clinical Skills exams,like Canada,UK,Australia,NZ give the SPs any power of passing/failing any applicants in the Clinical Skills exam.There r physicians present in the exam room who evaluate the test-takers.
Derailed, this CS failure is really going to make things very difficult for u in future.
The guy who has got a residency despite CS failure might have had strong recommendations from someone within the program or from someone who knew the PD in the program where he matched.

In the UK in some of our medical school exams the SPs get a say, not a big say but they do get a say. If you ask all the questions a doctor would want you to but make every pt feel uncomfortable then that is an issue so it is perfectly reasonable that their opinion is considered.
 
In the UK in some of our medical school exams the SPs get a say, not a big say but they do get a say. If you ask all the questions a doctor would want you to but make every pt feel uncomfortable then that is an issue so it is perfectly reasonable that their opinion is considered.

I ain't talking of the medical school exams.I m talking about the exams like PLAB Part 2,AMC Clinical Exam,MCCQE2,NZREX Clinical.
They have physician examiners in all these exams n SPs don't have any say anywhere when it comes to passing or failing.
 
...How can the bastard ignorant SPs evaluate a doctor's clinical skills?Only foolish Americans can believe in this mockery.
It is pertnent to mention that none of the other countries who conduct Clinical Skills exams,like Canada,UK,Australia,NZ give the SPs any power of passing/failing any applicants in the Clinical Skills exam...

well, in the US we give patients a lot more of say in healthcare than those other nations, many of which are socialized medicine. There are patient bill of rights, patient advocates, and patients in the US will have the right to complain about you to the higher ups and impact your career, and even sue you. So in the US the patient is a lot more empowered, and so yes the SP is a decent proxy for what you may face. This is a problem a lot of IMGs don't get -- you aren't going to need to just be technically proficient and smart in the eyes of other physicians to be a good doctor in the US, you need to be well regarded by your patients or you will be sued out of existence. So yeah the CS is a decent test regarding patient interaction skills. You need to put on a show of washing your hands, telling them what you are doing, show empathy and all those other things that are expected of by US patients. In all these other countries patients are less empowered, and a doctor can focus on just getting to the answer. But in the US the answer of what is wrong with the patient is only part of the issue, and the patient interaction itself is also important. It's not really accidental that this is the one test that few US grads have issues with compared to IMGs. And these touchy feely skills are the ones PDs care most about because patient complaints are going to be things the hospital administration will call the PD about, whereas technical skills will be internally dealt with within the department. So no, not US terrorism, just a reflection of how medicine is not the same everywhere, and in the US, the views of non physicians will matter to your career a lot more. Hence the SPs serve an important and appropriate role.
 
This is a problem a lot of IMGs don't get -- you aren't going to need to just be technically proficient and smart in the eyes of other physicians to be a good doctor in the US, you need to be well regarded by your patients or you will be sued out of existence.

this.

I can't believe how many IMG physicians I have worked with who have an excellent knowledge base, but are absolutely despised by their patients due to language and cultural issues.
 
this.

I can't believe how many IMG physicians I have worked with who have an excellent knowledge base, but are absolutely despised by their patients due to language and cultural issues.

And just to put a positive spin on it, those FMGs who endeavor to "get" the cultural nuances, smooth out and overcome communication barriers, and apply their excellent clinical knowledge often become beloved by their patients for their efforts.
 
I ain't talking of the medical school exams.I m talking about the exams like PLAB Part 2,AMC Clinical Exam,MCCQE2,NZREX Clinical.
They have physician examiners in all these exams n SPs don't have any say anywhere when it comes to passing or failing.

My point was other countries use SPs and they have a say in the exam outcome, it's not unique to the US like you suggested, exactly when isn't the issue. Also I think the SPs do get at least some say in things like the PLAB, maybe you just aren't aware of it. They get a say in exam marks during med school so essentially in the graduation of any UK trained student, why would it be different for others wanting to work here?
 
Last edited:
well, in the US we give patients a lot more of say in healthcare than those other nations, many of which are socialized medicine. There are patient bill of rights, patient advocates, and patients in the US will have the right to complain about you to the higher ups and impact your career, and even sue you. So in the US the patient is a lot more empowered, and so yes the SP is a decent proxy for what you may face. This is a problem a lot of IMGs don't get -- you aren't going to need to just be technically proficient and smart in the eyes of other physicians to be a good doctor in the US, you need to be well regarded by your patients or you will be sued out of existence. So yeah the CS is a decent test regarding patient interaction skills. You need to put on a show of washing your hands, telling them what you are doing, show empathy and all those other things that are expected of by US patients. In all these other countries patients are less empowered, and a doctor can focus on just getting to the answer. But in the US the answer of what is wrong with the patient is only part of the issue, and the patient interaction itself is also important. It's not really accidental that this is the one test that few US grads have issues with compared to IMGs. And these touchy feely skills are the ones PDs care most about because patient complaints are going to be things the hospital administration will call the PD about, whereas technical skills will be internally dealt with within the department. So no, not US terrorism, just a reflection of how medicine is not the same everywhere, and in the US, the views of non physicians will matter to your career a lot more. Hence the SPs serve an important and appropriate role.

Patients aren't less empowered in these other countries! In the US patients are certainly encouraged to make their own decisions but in my experience the majority still went with whatever the doctor thought without much question at all. In the UK it's similar but there is probably less automatic respect for doctors and patients don't just go with whatever we say as automatically as they do in the US. The reasoning behind involving them in their care so much is different I think though. I think winner123 maybe just doesn't realise that SPs actually do have a say in these other countries.
 
CS is actually an easy test. It is a gimme.

If you cannot communicate well, it will be difficult to develop a patient-doctor relationship. I have seen FMG residents talking as if they were scolding the patients... or they are simply hard to understand because of accent issues. It is unfortunate, but it is just the way it is. I am sure most of us will fail the CS if we had to speak in French or some other language.

Can you still match? Sure. It depends on the specialty. In some specialties, a failed CS is a kiss of death. But you still have a shot at Family Med or IM. Do you have a shot at top schools with a failed CS? Probably not. Programs at the boonies? Maybe. A friend of mine saw someone who started an intern year with a failed CS, but the program let him re-take it.
 
I am , or rather I should say, WAS in your situation. Failed CS the first time and retook it pretty late. Got the result on Oct 12 and applied to programs on Oct 15. Did it hurt my application, You betcha !.

I retook the test pretty late because of two things, could not find a date early enough and wanted to make sure that I passed it the second time.

I only got 5 interviews after applying to 80 programs. A CS attempt, will hurt you but what will hurt you even more is the fact that you would not get the results back until Mid December ( I really hope you pass this time).

Majority of the programs will just ignore your application, good scores or not. They have many others applying on Sep 1 with a complete package, why would they wait for you ?

My suggestion would be to build up your application for next year and come back stronger than ever.
 
Top