Please help me rank pathology residency programs

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Lyme

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Hello,

Please help me rank pathology residency programs. I prioritize good training and small city vibes.

Northwestern University
Indiana University
Iowa University
Henry Ford Hospital
Missouri-Columbia University
Temple University
Mount Sinai West and Morning Side

I appreciate all advice.

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well, my personal favorite on this list is Northwestern. Great reputation, strong training, and impressive fellowship list. It is Chicago though, not really the small city vibes. Same goes for Sinai.

If you are looking for more small city midwest vibes, - Indiana is probably a better choice, or Iowa.
 
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Generally speaking I personally look at number of fellowships, at where their graduates matched, and I look at the training schedule - I personally prefer places that have AP and CP mixed in together all throughout 4 years (some residencies split them year by year)
 
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Hello,

Please help me rank pathology residency programs. I prioritize good training and small city vibes.

Northwestern University
Indiana University
Iowa University
Henry Ford Hospital
Missouri-Columbia University
Temple University
Mount Sinai West and Morning Side

I appreciate all advice.
so, how did you feel during the interviews? DId you feel like some of these programs stood out?
 
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It is a bit harder to get a feeling with virtual interview.
NW has great AP training but weaker CP compared to others.
Henry Ford seems to be a strong program with excellent case volume (#200,000/year) but there is no in-house fellowships (except for clinical informatics and LGG)
Iowa has s good balance between AP and CP training I think
Indiana is a great program with so many in-house fellowships
 
Hello,

Please help me rank pathology residency programs. I prioritize good training and small city vibes.

Northwestern University
Indiana University
Iowa University
Henry Ford Hospital
Missouri-Columbia University
Temple University
Mount Sinai West and Morning Side

I appreciate all advice.
Small city vibes go with IU or Iowa. Make sure you like the people in the program. Northwestern-you might get car jacked or robbed lol.
 
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Iowa and Indiana are definitely above the rest in terms of reputation.
 
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Indiana should be top of list. Prepares you to work rural someday.
 
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You think Indiana and Iowa are above Northwestern in term of prestige?
Yes. The only program in Chicago with comparable academic prowess is probably University of Chicago. Northwestern isn’t bad though.
 
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You think Indiana and Iowa are above Northwestern in term of prestige?
That’s so subjective.

Don’t be concerned so much about prestige. Be concerned about where you’d be happy for 4 years. All three programs are good.
 
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That’s so subjective.

Don’t be concerned so much about prestige. Be concerned about where you’d be happy for 4 years. All three programs are good.
I completely agree. I would like to be in a supportive training environment and a small city.
 
That’s so subjective.

Don’t be concerned so much about prestige. Be concerned about where you’d be happy for 4 years. All three programs are good.
Do you think training in big cities like New York, Los Angeles or Chicago has more opportunities in term of jobs after graduation?
 
Do you think training in big cities like New York, Los Angeles or Chicago has more opportunities in term of jobs after graduation?
No, I don’t think just because you trained in a big city equates to more opportunities but if you want to live close to a big city I would aim for the best most reputable program in the city you want to live in to develop connections. Attendings from your program should know some people, who they trained and are out in private practice, that may be looking for someone. Sometimes nearby practices will just email someone in your program looking for a good candidate. The best jobs are usually never advertised because these groups don’t have to and they can be picky who they choose (even in this market). I don’t blame them.

I do think if you go to a strong reputable program, that will open people’s eyes when looking for a job since they look at your CV.
 
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I would entirely avoid North Philadelphia.
 
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No, I don’t think just because you trained in a big city equates to more opportunities but if you want to live close to a big city I would aim for the best most reputable program in the city you want to live in to develop connections. Attendings from your program should know some people, who they trained and are out in private practice, that may be looking for someone. Sometimes nearby practices will just email someone in your program looking for a good candidate. The best jobs are usually never advertised because these groups don’t have to and they can be picky who they choose (even in this market). I don’t blame them.

I do think if you go to a strong reputable program, that will open people’s eyes when looking for a job since they look at your CV.
Thank you for a very detailed answer. I prefer to live in small cities but someone told me big cities have more job opportunities so that is the reason I asked this question. I appreciate your information.
 
There have been multiple posts regarding program rankings. Sometimes people on here avoid giving such rankings, because it's subjective and/or arbitrary somewhat and they would rather focus on the bigger picture when selecting a program. Most people on here fall into 1 of 2 camps:
1. Go wherever makes you happy, because you don't want to be miserable for 4 years
OR
2. Go to the best name possible because name recognition matters for fellowships and job prospects.
(If you can get both 1 & 2 at the same program, then it makes the best of both worlds).

There's more to it than that, but it's a broad way of splitting things. Would you really be happier in a smaller city even if it means fewer career opportunities down the road? It's hard to measure this, because there's no way of telling what could have been if you went to program X instead of Y. Your choice doesn't have to be linear either with one metric i.e. size of the city. You can and should add other metrics, program reputation, quality of teaching, # of fellowships at the program, etc.

I recommend choosing where you would get the best training to be as competent and independent a pathologist as possible when you graduate above all else. Usually, this correlates with the program that have greater name recognition. For me personally, geography is less important.

If I had to lump your rank list, I would go with Northwestern, Indiana, and Iowa at the top in no particular order. They aren't top tier, but the closest to upper middle tier compared to the rest...
 
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There have been multiple posts regarding program rankings. Sometimes people on here avoid giving such rankings, because it's subjective and/or arbitrary somewhat and they would rather focus on the bigger picture when selecting a program. Most people on here fall into two camps:
1. Go wherever makes you happy, because you don't want to be miserable for 4 years
2. Go to the best name possible because name recognition matters for fellowships and job prospects.
(If you can get both 1 & 2 at the same program, then it makes the best of both worlds).

There's more to it than that, but it's a broad way of splitting things. Would you really be happier in a smaller city even if it means fewer career opportunities down the road? It's hard to measure this, because there's no way of telling what could have been if you went to program X instead of Y. Your choice doesn't have to be linear either with one metric i.e. size of the city. You can and should add other metrics, program reputation, quality of teaching, # of fellowships at the program, etc.

I recommend choosing where you would get the best training to be as competent and independent a pathologist as possible when you graduate above all else. Usually, this correlates with the program that have greater name recognition. For me personally, geography is less important.

If I had to lump your rank list, I would go with Northwestern, Indiana, and Iowa at the top in no particular order. They aren't top tier, but the closest to upper middle tier compared to the rest...
You gave great points! Thank you so much!
 
Do you guys have any idea regarding Henry Ford Program and Detroit?
 
Do you guys have any idea regarding Henry Ford Program and Detroit?
You mentioned you’re a small city person so why even consider Detroit? I wouldn’t want to live in Detroit anyways. Try to train close to where you want to live.

Indiana, Iowa and Northwestern have a better reputation/name. Don’t waste your time ranking others above those three. I’d rank Henry Ford #4 then.
 
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You mentioned you’re a small city person so why even consider Detroit? I wouldn’t want to live in Detroit anyways. Try to train close to where you want to live.

Indiana, Iowa and Northwestern have a better reputation/name. Don’t waste your time ranking others above those three. I’d rank Henry Ford #4 then.
I agree downtown Detroit is a hard place to live. However, there are many good suburban areas around it such as Dearborn,.. that may give you a good sense of small city vibes. I also agree that Henry Ford is not academic as other three but it has a good case volume and well funded I believed.
 
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Do you guy think CP training is an important factor being considered in choosing a residency?
 
I know people that trained at both Iowa and Indiana; both are strong midwest programs, the latter probably has more fellowship opportunities, though the former arguably has stronger core path training.
FWIW they're both in LCOL areas and hospitable for 4-5 years. I would avoid Detroit and Chicago and Philly personally, but I'm a midwest person.
 
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Do you guy think CP training is an important factor being considered in choosing a residency?
Mostly for hemepath. It can’t hurt to be good at chemistry, blood bank, micro, molecular, etc. but hemepath is important for any pathologist imo.
 
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Mostly for hemepath. It can’t hurt to be good at chemistry, blood bank, micro, molecular, etc. but hemepath is important for any pathologist imo.
Do you guy think CP training is an important factor being considered in choosing a residency?
My CP training was crap. Just basically lectures. Hemepath volume was low. CP training was like a vacation. I wish I had gone to a program with strong CP training but from what I’ve heard from friends is that’s how it is at most places. We had no blood bank lectures. People just dropped CP certification (they failed and just went AP only).

Our rotations were basically go sit with the techs until noon. There were days we didn’t even have a bone marrow (we had no hemepath fellowship). We had a PhD guy who read straight from a 40 page packet for our 8 am conference. Everyone just pretended they were listening. Our hemepath guy was in his mid 70s and was not updated on heme classifications (not surprising).

My program is still around. I don’t know how some of these programs still are allowed to train residents.

I wouldn’t even recommend my program to anyone. It was decent in AP but CP was basically study on your own. To this day, I still wonder how much I would’ve learned had I been in a program with strong CP.

I would, however, recommend you to go to a place that will make you as well rounded as possible but I understand most programs are weak in CP. I agree you got to at least make sure your heme path training is solid if anything.
 
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I know people that trained at both Iowa and Indiana; both are strong midwest programs, the latter probably has more fellowship opportunities, though the former arguably has stronger core path training.
FWIW they're both in LCOL areas and hospitable for 4-5 years. I would avoid Detroit and Chicago and Philly personally, but I'm a midwest person.
Thank you for your opinion. I am kind of thinking about Iowa and Indiana. Both are pleasant places to live. I think I will go for private practice after training. I am considering hematopathology and transfusion medicine as my future career. In your opinion, which programs (Indiana vs Iowa) would you put higher?
 
My CP training was crap. Just basically lectures. Hemepath volume was low. CP training was like a vacation. I wish I had gone to a program with strong CP training but from what I’ve heard from friends is that’s how it is at most places. We had no blood bank lectures. People just dropped CP certification (they failed and just went AP only).

Our rotations were basically go sit with the techs until noon. There were days we didn’t even have a bone marrow (we had no hemepath fellowship). We had a PhD guy who read straight from a 40 page packet for our 8 am conference. Everyone just pretended they were listening. Our hemepath guy was in his mid 70s and was not updated on heme classifications (not surprising).

My program is still around. I don’t know how some of these programs still are allowed to train residents.

I wouldn’t even recommend my program to anyone. It was decent in AP but CP was basically study on your own. To this day, I still wonder how much I would’ve learned had I been in a program with strong CP.

I would, however, recommend you to go to a place that will make you as well rounded as possible but I understand most programs are weak in CP. I agree you got to at least make sure your heme path training is solid if anything.
I see. My top 4 programs would be Northwestern, Henry Ford, Iowa, and Indiana. NW has strong AP but their CP is bad. Form what I know, Indiana program transfusion medicine is not great. I believe Iowa and Henry Ford stand out as well AP/CP balanced programs. I don't think I want to live in Detroit. Do you have more insights regarding Iowa program?
 
Mostly for hemepath. It can’t hurt to be good at chemistry, blood bank, micro, molecular, etc. but hemepath is important for any pathologist imo.
I agree. Between Iowa and Indiana, which one would you rank higher for a well-balanced AP/CP training?
 
My CP training was crap. Just basically lectures.
CP training was like a vacation. I wish I had gone to a program with strong CP training but from what I’ve heard from friends is that’s how it is at most places.

Our rotations were basically go sit with the techs until noon.

My program is still around. I don’t know how some of these programs still are allowed to train residents.
Exactly the same for me, and I was at the big university hospital.
CP "training" in most places is just a waste of taxpayer's money and residents time.
The fact that I passed CP boards from the first attempt is a miracle (never was the smartest kid in the room) and only emphasizing how broken is the whole pathology training.
 
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Agree, I wouldn't try to weigh too heavily any valuation of "CP" training...it's crap everywhere except a handful of places.
Both UI and IU have good AP; CP is just fine; Indiana I believe has more fellowships, but Iowa probably better with transfusion. Both are good for hemepath. Just don't pigeonhole yourself as a future transfusionist...everyone changes their mind.
I personally find transfusion boring as hell and hemepath insanely esoteric (and requires molecular/fish for EVERYTHING).. so glad I didn't do hemepath.
 
I agree. Between Iowa and Indiana, which one would you rank higher for a well-balanced AP/CP training?
I can’t help, sorry. Not familiar with either program.

My hospital was very solid in CP, with the only possible weakness being Chemistry, but that was more due to my own disinterest. CP is a profit zone for the hospital (AP is barely breaking even due to continued insane cuts to AP) so foregoing CP training is a bad decision unless you’re going for forensics/neuropath/dermpath only. You want to be able to be a lab director following training, so do your best to learn CP.
 
I can’t help, sorry. Not familiar with either program.

My hospital was very solid in CP, with the only possible weakness being Chemistry, but that was more due to my own disinterest. CP is a profit zone for the hospital (AP is barely breaking even due to continued insane cuts to AP) so foregoing CP training is a bad decision unless you’re going for forensics/neuropath/dermpath only. You want to be able to be a lab director following training, so do your best to learn CP.
If you're AP only and dermpath - you are very limited in private practice to derm-owned labs. I would recommend AP/CP to widen your scope if you're going into private practice.
 
I can’t help, sorry. Not familiar with either program.

My hospital was very solid in CP, with the only possible weakness being Chemistry, but that was more due to my own disinterest. CP is a profit zone for the hospital (AP is barely breaking even due to continued insane cuts to AP) so foregoing CP training is a bad decision unless you’re going for forensics/neuropath/dermpath only. You want to be able to be a lab director following training, so do your best to learn CP.
Can you expand how CP is a “profit zone” for the hospital? Are we talking chemistry lab? I always assumed CP isn’t as profitable as it was in the 80s.
 
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I’d go to Northwestern in a heartbeat and screw the small town vibes. The only caveat is that you must be able to afford to live in the immediate area.($$$$)
 
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Can you expand how CP is a “profit zone” for the hospital? Are we talking chemistry lab? I always assumed CP isn’t as profitable as it was in the 80s.
Yes. I talked to a pathologist at Mayo. He said clinical chemistry are highly profitable (high volume, automated, fewer human resources). AP is in grey zone. H&E probably doesn't make much money but IHC can get good reimbursement. Blood bank is actually area where hospital looses money.
 
I’d go to Northwestern in a heartbeat and screw the small town vibes. The only caveat is that you must be able to afford to live in the immediate area.($$$$)
Why would you want to go to Northwestern right a way? I agree Chicago is probably not as expensive as NY, Boston. I heard they have many problems with faculty turnover!
 
Why would you want to go to Northwestern right a way? I agree Chicago is probably not as expensive as NY, Boston. I heard they have many problems with faculty turnover!
Yeah they have a lot of work but not enough pathologists from what I heard so maybe that explains the turnover.
 
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Yeah Iowa City is def small town but all of Indiana's GME stuff is in Indianapolis, not really "small town vibes", just more hospitable COL compared to chicago.
Keep in mind "small town vibe" programs often open the door to "small town vibe" gigs, which are generally at the higher end of MGMA salaries. In my experience Midwest private practices, if you're into that sort of thing, tend to have an affinity for people that have a desire to stay (and perhaps have lived & trained) in the midwest.
 
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Yeah Iowa City is def small town but all of Indiana's GME stuff is in Indianapolis, not really "small town vibes", just more hospitable COL compared to chicago.
Keep in mind "small town vibe" programs often open the door to "small town vibe" gigs, which are generally at the higher end of MGMA salaries. In my experience Midwest private practices, if you're into that sort of thing, tend to have an affinity for people that have a desire to stay (and perhaps have lived & trained) in the midwest.
I agree. You mentioned good points about Midwest job market. Regarding Indiana program, it was not in downtown, but located in a "suburban-look like" area so I think we can call it a small town/city vibes. Additionally, you rarely see people in downtown Indianapolis :))) (I don't know why!)
 
Yeah they have a lot of work but not enough pathologists from what I heard so maybe that explains the turnover.
They tried to hide red flags during the interview (virtual). They made their program look deceptively perfect and attractive.
 
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They tried to hide red flags during the interview (virtual). They made their program look deceptively perfect and attractive.
What’s new everyone bullsh#ts (even the crappy programs lol) to make sure they fill their program.
 
I think Iowa would be fantastic if you're more interested in hematopathology. I know the chairman of the Path department and he is pretty much a God at flow cytometry/hemepath. I don't know how much of a footprint he has in the day to day clinical activities since he is directing the entire department, but he would be a reason I would rank them highly.
 
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I think Iowa would be fantastic if you're more interested in hematopathology. I know the chairman of the Path department and he is pretty much a God at flow cytometry/hemepath. I don't know how much of a footprint he has in the day to day clinical activities since he is directing the entire department, but he would be a reason I would rank them highly.
Thank you for your great insights. I appreciate it.
 
Do you guys have any idea about Mount Sinai West program (not main hospital)? I heard that residents overworked and had less time for preview. However, their cytology rotations seem interesting because residents are able to learn US-guided FNA.
 
Do you guys have any idea about Mount Sinai West program (not main hospital)? I heard that residents overworked and had less time for preview. However, their cytology rotations seem interesting because residents are able to learn US-guided FNA.
Not personally familiar but it is not a highly regarded program. I would not rank them highly if you have the option to match at NW, Iowa, or Indiana.
 
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