Pre doc apa vs non apa accredited sites

[psydforme6]

I am a 4th year PsyD student in an APA accredited program in the midst of internship apps. I am child/adolescent focused and my initial list of sites contained only APA accredited sites. After speaking with my DCT she suggested adding 2-3 non APA as backup since child/ad sites tend to be more competitive. My supervisor, however, stated that I should stay away from non APA sites as the field as a whole is moving toward requiring APA accreditation and this could hurt my future job prospects.

I don't want to remove APA accredited sites from my list to add non APA, as I don't want to decrease my chances of matching with an accredited site. The money is really adding up though and I'd prefer not to add two to three more sites onto my list.

Any advice/suggestions are greatly appreciated.

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[MCParent]

Don't add non-APA sites.

The DCT shouldn't be advising you against your own goals. I sure hope she is not suggesting you do that to avoid having her numbers go down if you don't match.

 

[Rivi]

I second MCParent. IMHO, I would not add any non-APA accredited sites onto the list. I would prefer going to phase II or re-trying the next year than getting stuck with an unaccredited site.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

100% agree.

APA-acred. is (again) becoming the bare minimum accepted training acred. for licensure. All of the recent efforts to tighten up the standards just reinforces that view.

Almost every competitive job requires APA acred....and in a few yrs it will be the required standard, so even if you get grandfathered in, you'll still need to justify your training to HR, hiring committee, etc.

 

[WisNeuro]

Friends don't let friends go to non accredited programs. Not even once.

 

[PositivelySkewed]

Eh it really depends on the state you want to practice in-- some states only require APPIC for licensure so in that case, the non-APA sites may be a good fallback option. APA sites if you want portability later, though.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

I currently don't know of any states that explicitly require APA-accredited internships for licensure as of yet, although that may change over the next few years. However, having a non-accredited internship does significantly affect career opportunities, as it disqualifies some employers outright (e.g., VA, some states, multiple academic medical centers, etc.), and will make you less competitive for just about all other jobs.

Personally, that's not something I'd want to deal with, given how competitive the job market is nowadays. I also just feel that it's good for the field to pursue and require minimum standards, which (as T4C pointed out) is what APA accreditation represents. Thus, even if I'd had the option to add non-accredited sites to my list when I was applying, I wouldn't have done so.

 

[VeryHopeful2010]

Just go with APA sites! It's hard enough to get a post-doc and job with an APA accredited internship… and I worry about future licensure, as others mentioned. Good luck!

 

[OneNeuroDoctor]

A number of sites are in the process of the APA accreditation initial review. This may take 2-4 years before the site is actually APA approved. However, the Accreditation is retroactive to when the site actually submitted their application. When I applied three-years ago, I matched with a site that was in the review process and they received their approval in April of that year retroactive to 2010, so my internship was officially APA accredited when I started.

There is a trend where when you only apply to APA accredited sites the competition is much more intense and you risk not matching. The system is not precise and unfortunately a number of highly qualified individuals do not match each year and sometimes they don't match a second year. In the best of all worlds, everyone in the match should be selected by an APA accredited site, but a large number of sites remain non-APA accredited with no plans of seeking APA accreditation. Due to the imbalance they usually get highly qualified candidates from APA accredited programs.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

A number of sites are in the process of the APA accreditation initial review. This may take 2-4 years before the site is actually APA approved. However, the Accreditation is retroactive to when the site actually submitted their application. When I applied three-years ago, I matched with a site that was in the review process and they received their approval in April of that year retroactive to 2010, so my internship was officially APA accredited when I started.

There is a trend where when you only apply to APA accredited sites the competition is much more intense and you risk not matching. The system is not precise and unfortunately a number of highly qualified individuals do not match each year and sometimes they don't match a second year. In the best of all worlds, everyone in the match should be selected by an APA accredited site, but a large number of sites remain non-APA accredited with no plans of seeking APA accreditation. Due to the imbalance they usually get highly qualified candidates from APA accredited programs.

I would double-check the bolded point just to be absolutely sure. The accreditation is definitely retroactive, but I'd thought it was similar to that for graduate programs in that it is retroactive to the last site visit that ultimately results in accreditation, not to the date the application materials are submitted. This is important, since (as pointed out) there can be a lag between application submission and site visit(s).

While I don't support trying to fix the internship imbalance by simply adding new internships, I fully support the APA attempting to streamline it's somewhat arduous and esoteric accreditation process.

 

[erg923]

However, the Accreditation is retroactive to when the site actually submitted their application.

False. Accreditation is retroactive to date of site visit.

See below:
http://www.apa.org/ed/accreditation/about/index.aspx

 

[smalltownpsych]

I am a 4th year PsyD student in an APA accredited program in the midst of internship apps. I am child/adolescent focused and my initial list of sites contained only APA accredited sites. After speaking with my DCT she suggested adding 2-3 non APA as backup since child/ad sites tend to be more competitive. My supervisor, however, stated that I should stay away from non APA sites as the field as a whole is moving toward requiring APA accreditation and this could hurt my future job prospects.

I don't want to remove APA accredited sites from my list to add non APA, as I don't want to decrease my chances of matching with an accredited site. The money is really adding up though and I'd prefer not to add two to three more sites onto my list.

Any advice/suggestions are greatly appreciated.

I would suggest adding sites that might not have a child/adolescent focus before adding non-APA sites. As someone who works with adolescents primarily, I find that it is helpful to have broader experiences, too.

 

[MCParent]

I would not ever bank on a site that says it "expects to be accredited." I've known many more students who have been screwed by that than had it work out.

 

[PositivelySkewed]

I would not ever bank on a site that says it "expects to be accredited." I've known many more students who have been screwed by that than had it work out.

I agree that I would take "expects to be accredited" with a grain of salt. But I think that it might pay to ask where one of these internships is in the accreditation process.

Whether the internship is/has:
- in the planning stages of applying for accreditation
- submitted the self-study
-completed the site visit
makes a pretty big difference.

If the internship has completed the site visit, ask what feedback was given and how they have addressed it. Also ask when the committee for accreditation convenes to make the final say. If the internship is in the latter stages of the accreditation process, I would be more inclined to take the gamble.

 

[OneNeuroDoctor]

False. Accreditation is retroactive to date of site visit.

See below:
http://www.apa.org/ed/accreditation/about/index.aspx

What a bummer. I was told it was when they submitted application as I know someone who recently graduated with their PhD and specifically was informed that they needed to extend their program to graduate after they submitted their application so they would be able to indicate APA accreditation retroactively to the application date.

They graduated before the site visit so it sounds as if they will not be able to indicate graduation from an APA accredited program.

 

[psydforme6]

You all are amazing! Thank you so much for the input, I really appreciate it!

 

[PsychScience]

Sounds like you already got some good advice, but (to echo what has already been said) as someone who is also child/adolescent focused, if you want to do a postdoc in a children's hospital and/or eventually end up on staff in such a setting you definitely want an APA accredited internship. Just about every job and postdoc position in a children's hospital or pediatric setting has listed as a bare minimum requirement APA accreditation at BOTH the graduate program and internship level. Just something to keep in mind! All the best!

 

[LMK]

I currently don't know of any states that explicitly require APA-accredited internships for licensure as of yet, although that may change over the next few years. However, having a non-accredited internship does significantly affect career opportunities, as it disqualifies some employers outright (e.g., VA, some states, multiple academic medical centers, etc.), and will make you less competitive for just about all other jobs.

Personally, that's not something I'd want to deal with, given how competitive the job market is nowadays. I also just feel that it's good for the field to pursue and require minimum standards, which (as T4C pointed out) is what APA accreditation represents. Thus, even if I'd had the option to add non-accredited sites to my list when I was applying, I wouldn't have done so.

I thought CA did now, and MN is in the process of changing their licensure requirements to reflect only APA...

 

[WisNeuro]

Dominoes are falling the accredited way. There is also a serious proposal on the table to require accredited programs and internships for board certifications in ABPP.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Dominoes are falling the accredited way. There is also a serious proposal on the table to require accredited programs and internships for board certifications in ABPP.

I was actually somewhat surprised by the resistance against this and the whole requiring accredited grad programs and internships proposal that came up on one of the neuropsych listserves.

 

[WisNeuro]

I was actually somewhat surprised by the resistance against this and the whole requiring accredited grad programs and internships proposal that came up on one of the neuropsych listserves.

Me too, but is seems like it's all from some old guard members. I'd be interested in a blind poll of all INS members as to how people feel about this. In terms of the accredited grad program proposal, I would vote for that in a heartbeat.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Me too, but is seems like it's all from some old guard members. I'd be interested in a blind poll of all INS members as to how people feel about this. In terms of the accredited grad program proposal, I would vote for that in a heartbeat.

Agreed. I also wasn't particularly impressed by the idea that folks were opposing this based on the idea that it's "self-serving" to the APA, and that they shouldn't follow-through on this until they can "ensure" that all students have the opportunity to attend accredited internships.

I agree that the internship situation is something the APA needs to more seriously address, but to stop progress in all other areas (particularly something as important as protecting against continued erosion of training standards) would be counter-productive.

 

[WisNeuro]

Well, it's this false belief that it's a supply side problem. That the fix is more internship sites. Except that 1) there is no great shortage of psychologists, and 2) create more internship sites and Argosy and Alliant will just admit more students and the problem remains the same, and we have even more oversaturated markets and more poorly trained clinicians.

 

[Ollie123]

I can't speak to within the neuro world specifically, but there is definitely some resistance to "requiring APA" for other aspects (licensure, etc.) from PCSAS for very different reasons. The nuances get complicated but it basically amounts to them no longer trusting APA to represent the profession and push for higher (vs lower) standards. They are obviously reluctant to support anything that makes APA the only option given they are trying to develop an alternative system.

I've been quite supportive of the PCSAS movement more broadly, but I think this is one of the major issues that comes with competing systems in place. They got fed up with APA refusing to uphold any kind of standards and now that they finally do make attempts to do so it risks undercutting what PCSAS has accomplished.

No idea if that factors into what was being discussed on the neuro listservs, but it seems relevant either way.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

I can't speak to within the neuro world specifically, but there is definitely some resistance to "requiring APA" for other aspects (licensure, etc.) from PCSAS for very different reasons. The nuances get complicated but it basically amounts to them no longer trusting APA to represent the profession and push for higher (vs lower) standards. They are obviously reluctant to support anything that makes APA the only option given they are trying to develop an alternative system.

I've been quite supportive of the PCSAS movement more broadly, but I think this is one of the major issues that comes with competing systems in place. They got fed up with APA refusing to uphold any kind of standards and now that they finally do make attempts to do so it risks undercutting what PCSAS has accomplished.

No idea if that factors into what was being discussed on the neuro listservs, but it seems relevant either way.

I can understand the concerns, and I honestly wouldn't see the APA including some type of language that would allow for PCSAS accreditation to also count as acceptable. More than anything, I was just disappointed by the, "we can't do this until there are enough internship spots for everyone" comment(s), which (as WisNeuro pointed out) ignores the idea that the problem seems to be more on the supply than demand side.

 

[Ollie123]

Oh I agree - that seems like a BS argument to defer applying any kind of serious (and controversial) solution. Some folks might get caught in the middle, but honestly if you look at match rates it is still far more the exception than the rule for students at university programs not to match to an APA internship...and even then it usually means delaying a year rather than taking a non-APA internship (a much better solution in my eyes and how it SHOULD work in the event people don't match, rather than this APPIC/CAPIC/I cobbled something together craziness).

 

[cara susanna]

Well, it's this false belief that it's a supply side problem. That the fix is more internship sites. Except that 1) there is no great shortage of psychologists, and 2) create more internship sites and Argosy and Alliant will just admit more students and the problem remains the same, and we have even more oversaturated markets and more poorly trained clinicians.

I'm honestly not sure if people genuinely believe this, or if they're just being politically correct because increasing the supply is the less controversial way to act like they're trying to do something.

 

[WisNeuro]

I'm honestly not sure if people genuinely believe this, or if they're just being politically correct because increasing the supply is the less controversial way to act like they're trying to do something.

Perhaps, but so far, all of the "solutions" proposed have been to do things that increase the number of internships. I.E., make the accreditation process easier, make money available for sites to apply for, etc. I have yet to see a serious effort of making the diploma mills of Argosy/Alliant/Fielding accountable. The one Argosy lawsuit was filed by a state attorney general, the psychology world had little to do with it from what I recall.

 

[cara susanna]

Yeah, but I feel like the people proposing the solutions are proposing them because they don't want to make certain people/schools angry and not because they genuinely think that they'll be effective. Kind of like security theatre, I guess.

 

[WisNeuro]

Well, the APA gets a lot of money from those schools, so I'm not too surprised. One of the reasons I refuse to pay for membership.

 

[463951]

Well, the APA gets a lot of money from those schools, so I'm not too surprised. One of the reasons I refuse to pay for membership.

and people wonder how these schools are able to remain accredited...