Pre operative/Intra operative clonidine

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Sonny Crocket

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Anybody using clonidine as premedication? What kind of effects are you getting?

I'm being pushed to use this as premed but am a little skeptical. I think it is ok for the right patient but it may be overkill? I work mainly on Ortho.

Thanks!

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Anybody using clonidine as premedication? What kind of effects are you getting?

I'm being pushed to use this as premed but am a little skeptical. I think it is ok for the right patient but it may be overkill? I work mainly on Ortho.

Thanks!

Who is pushing you?

I never use it now. Residency used it for kids mostly.
 
Not using it and don't plan on it. I would imagine seeing some hypotension associated with its use. Why use it when there are better alternatives available?
 
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Not using it and don't plan on it. I would imagine seeing some hypotension associated with its use. Why use it when there are better alternatives available?
Could you be more specific on alternatives? We give dexa, paracetamol, and sometimes OxyContin as a standard premed. Lyrica sometimes as well.

I should say encouraged rather than being pushed to use it. I've read the articles but am just not sold on it. Wanted to know if any of you have found it be really helpful for post op pain.
 
Could you be more specific on alternatives? We give dexa, paracetamol, and sometimes OxyContin as a standard premed. Lyrica sometimes as well.

I should say encouraged rather than being pushed to use it. I've read the articles but am just not sold on it. Wanted to know if any of you have found it be really helpful for post op pain.

I presume you are talking total joints given you said you do Ortho.

Total joint pts from me get:
Dex
Zofran
Celebrex
IV Tylenol
Gabapentin

I've seen and heard scopolamine patch used in past as well.

Red
 
I haven't used Clonidine since Dexmeditomidine came around. It's very similar in effect, just more hemodynamic effects with an equipotent dose. Basically cheaper version of Dexmeditomidine with more hemodynamic side effects.

50-100 mcg as a premed is fairly effective as a sedative/anxiolytic
 
Could you be more specific on alternatives? We give dexa, paracetamol, and sometimes OxyContin as a standard premed. Lyrica sometimes as well.

I should say encouraged rather than being pushed to use it. I've read the articles but am just not sold on it. Wanted to know if any of you have found it be really helpful for post op pain.

Oxycontin seems like an odd choice for a premed. How early are you giving it? Why? I like reading about what others are doing in other parts of the world.

I rarely use long-acting opiates early during, or prior to, surgery. I used to use IV methadone up front for spines in opiate-tolerant patients ... but I quit doing that because the pharmacy made it hard to get it and I find that ketamine + any other opiate works as well or better, and more predictably.

I haven't touched clonidine since residency, and then only as a neuraxial adjunct.
 
Only seen it used in kids and in spinals for chronic pain.

For ortho:
IV tylenol
OxyContin
Lyrica
Celebrex

If they get this I basically don't have to give them anything intraop.
 
Anybody using clonidine as premedication? What kind of effects are you getting?

I'm being pushed to use this as premed but am a little skeptical. I think it is ok for the right patient but it may be overkill? I work mainly on Ortho.

Thanks!
Are you talking about p.o clonidine?
I use it frequently intra-op for htn or intrathecal instead of sufenta.
 
What does PO Oxycontin preop do better than IV hydromorphone or morphine intraop?

It's been shown in some ortho research that a preemptive approach works better and that was with something similar to the cocktail above, ie lower post op pain scores and lower PCA use. I didn't really buy into it but after seeing the results it's pretty impressive.
 
It's been shown in some ortho research that a preemptive approach works better and that was with something similar to the cocktail above, ie lower post op pain scores and lower PCA use. I didn't really buy into it but after seeing the results it's pretty impressive.


I never would have agreed that pre-meds could be really effective either, however I started with a group that premeds almost everyone and the cases go smoother from a hemodynamic standpoint, I use significantly less intra-op narcotic, and patients seem to do really well. So after 7 months I'm a believer. Use similar approach to the above.
 
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Interesting question.

My resident and I were just talking about this. What surprises me the most - is the data on clonidine is pretty clear, well established, and as far as I know, has no good substitute. Peroperative clonidine is very good at decreasing perioperative cardiac events. It is really a great drug for this, and for all the other things people use it for. The last time I looked, it has much better data than anything else. Other newer alpha-2 agonist don't have such robust data. Neither do beta blockers. "Why don't people use it more?" I quized my resident. I don't have a good answer.
 
I am interested in the use of IV clonidine as an intraop adjunct. Any experience with this? I pay for my medications and dex is too expensive at this time.

J
 
I am interested in the use of IV clonidine as an intraop adjunct. Any experience with this? I pay for my medications and dex is too expensive at this time.

J
What do you mean "you pay for your meds"? In Canada you have purchase all your own stuff? What about the pts? Can't they pay you back depending on what you use?
 
I am a dental anesthesiologist doing office based anesthesia. I own my equipment and pay for all disposables including medications. I get paid my unit time only

J
 
For those of you that use lyrics or gabapentin in your pre-med, are you continuing this med for an extended time postop? If not then you are mostly likely only getting negative effects from it. Esp'ly in the elderly.

  1. Clarke H, Bonin RP, Orser BA, Englesakis M, Wijeysundera DN, Katz J. The prevention of chronic postsurgical pain using gabapentin and pregabalin: a combined systematic review and meta-analysis. Anesth Analg. 2012;115(2):428-442.
  2. Chaparro LE, Smith SA, Moore RA, Wiffen PJ, Gilron I. Pharmacotherapy for the prevention of chronic pain after surgery in adults. Cochrane Database Syst Rev. 2013;7:CD008307.
Despite limitations of the included studies (ie, small sample sizes, lack of power estimation prior to intervention, and lack of preexisting pain), the authors of this meta-analysis concluded that perioperative use of gabapentinoids as part of a multimodal approach may alleviate CPSP. Furthermore, it appears that pregabalin might be more efficacious than gabapentin. Patients who received higher doses preoperatively also had better long-term results. Preventing the conversion of acute pain to CPSP using gabapentinoids warrants further analysis.
 
In recent years, there has been a large increase in the use of office-based sedation and anesthesia for surgical procedures, including pediatric dental care. Need for this care has been fueled by the increasing prevalence of dental caries in children and the cost savings associated with office-based care (frequently <20% of typical hospital charges). Generally, these costs are not covered by medical insurance, although they are frequently covered by Medicaid. Outcomes from office-based anesthetic practice, however, are vastly underreported in the medical literature, and quality review has relied upon self-reporting by the practitioner. Because of these factors, it is difficult to obtain reliable outcome data. It is also not possible to obtain these data from state medical boards, since adverse events that occur in the dental office must be reported to state dental boards rather than medical boards.

Recently, a group of researchers took a different approach to review the scope of catastrophic events, which are often reported by local news media. A search of the LexisNexis legal database was done for news media coverage of deaths from sedation or anesthesia in pediatric dental patients between 1980 and 2011. A separate search was done of a private foundation website set up specifically for this purpose. All cases were validated through other sources. Forty-four instances of death were identified (Table 1), and data were recorded regarding patient demographics, type of sedation administered (local, moderate sedation, general anesthesia), location (hospital, ambulatory surgery center, dental office), and person providing the sedation (dentist, oral surgeon, anesthesiologist). Anesthesiologists included both dental and medical anesthesiologists, and dentists included both pediatric and general dentists.

Several trends were noted. Most deaths involved either children aged 2 to 5 years (21 of 44; 47.7%)—an age where caries are prevalent and the ability to cooperate is limited—or teenagers (13 of 44; 29.6%). The majority of deaths occurred in an office-based setting (31 of 44; 70.5%). In most instances (25 of 44; 56.8%), the provider was doing both the dental care and the supervision of the sedation. General anesthesia was used in 10 cases; an anesthesiologist was the provider in 7 cases. Four deaths occurred with the use of local anesthesia. These may have been related to overdose or intravascular injection since seizures were mentioned in at least 1 of these instances.

Three of 44 patients had sedation risks that were not recognized preoperatively. One child aged 13 months (managed in a surgery center by an anesthesiologist) had an undiagnosed congenital heart defect uncovered at autopsy. A second child with Treacher Collins syndrome and a previous tracheotomy died during sedation in the office-based setting, as did a child with known pulmonary stenosis.

External, in-depth analysis of the circumstances surrounding the deaths was reported in 11 cases, and an adverse judgment rendered in 9 of these. Common deviations from the standard of care included inadequacies in monitoring, resuscitation efforts, and preoperative assessment as well as medication errors (including both local anesthetics and sedative agents).
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Not here to defend my practice. Just want to learn.... Now back to clonidine...
 
In recent years, there has been a large increase in the use of office-based sedation and anesthesia for surgical procedures, including pediatric dental care. Need for this care has been fueled by the increasing prevalence of dental caries in children and the cost savings associated with office-based care (frequently <20% of typical hospital charges). Generally, these costs are not covered by medical insurance, although they are frequently covered by Medicaid. Outcomes from office-based anesthetic practice, however, are vastly underreported in the medical literature, and quality review has relied upon self-reporting by the practitioner. Because of these factors, it is difficult to obtain reliable outcome data. It is also not possible to obtain these data from state medical boards, since adverse events that occur in the dental office must be reported to state dental boards rather than medical boards.

Recently, a group of researchers took a different approach to review the scope of catastrophic events, which are often reported by local news media. A search of the LexisNexis legal database was done for news media coverage of deaths from sedation or anesthesia in pediatric dental patients between 1980 and 2011. A separate search was done of a private foundation website set up specifically for this purpose. All cases were validated through other sources. Forty-four instances of death were identified (Table 1), and data were recorded regarding patient demographics, type of sedation administered (local, moderate sedation, general anesthesia), location (hospital, ambulatory surgery center, dental office), and person providing the sedation (dentist, oral surgeon, anesthesiologist). Anesthesiologists included both dental and medical anesthesiologists, and dentists included both pediatric and general dentists.

Several trends were noted. Most deaths involved either children aged 2 to 5 years (21 of 44; 47.7%)—an age where caries are prevalent and the ability to cooperate is limited—or teenagers (13 of 44; 29.6%). The majority of deaths occurred in an office-based setting (31 of 44; 70.5%). In most instances (25 of 44; 56.8%), the provider was doing both the dental care and the supervision of the sedation. General anesthesia was used in 10 cases; an anesthesiologist was the provider in 7 cases. Four deaths occurred with the use of local anesthesia. These may have been related to overdose or intravascular injection since seizures were mentioned in at least 1 of these instances.

Three of 44 patients had sedation risks that were not recognized preoperatively. One child aged 13 months (managed in a surgery center by an anesthesiologist) had an undiagnosed congenital heart defect uncovered at autopsy. A second child with Treacher Collins syndrome and a previous tracheotomy died during sedation in the office-based setting, as did a child with known pulmonary stenosis.

External, in-depth analysis of the circumstances surrounding the deaths was reported in 11 cases, and an adverse judgment rendered in 9 of these. Common deviations from the standard of care included inadequacies in monitoring, resuscitation efforts, and preoperative assessment as well as medication errors (including both local anesthetics and sedative agents).
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I do not see what this "evidenced based piece" has to do specifically with dental anesthesia providers...it lumps dental anesthesiologists in with medical anesthesiologts (their verbage not mine)
 
I use propofol, remifentanil, sometimes ketamine. The odd time midazolam. Oh AND nitrous

J
I'm a pgy3 resident I just finished 2m at children's hospital where we do a bunch of dental. Not sure what procedures you are doing them for, but the cases we were doing I can't see how remi or ketamine would be beneficial. Pts all woke up comfortable with toradol and morphine. I'm assuming you use propofol because you don't use vapor.
 
I'm a pgy3 resident I just finished 2m at children's hospital where we do a bunch of dental. Not sure what procedures you are doing them for, but the cases we were doing I can't see how remi or ketamine would be beneficial. Pts all woke up comfortable with toradol and morphine. I'm assuming you use propofol because you don't use vapor.

For kids I do sevo/nitrous induction. Switch to prop/remi target controlled infusion. And intubate. Throw nitrous back on. Yes; try to avoid vapour as much as possible. No vent so they are spontaneously breathing. For post op analgesia they get toradol and low dose ketamine. No post op narcs.

But back to clonidine...
 
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For kids I do sevo/nitrous induction. Switch to prop/remi target controlled infusion. And intubate. Throw nitrous back on. Yes; try to avoid vapour as much as possible. No vent so they are spontaneously breathing. For post op analgesia they get toradol and low dose ketamine. No post op narcs.

But back to clonidine...

One thing they may not have taught you in the fancy dental anesthesia residency is that polypharmacy kills. Again, stick with fewer meds and simple techniques; especially when in an office based setting.
 
Polypharmacy doesn't kill. Lack of knowledge, lack of vigilance, and carelessness DOES. You can easily kill someone with one drug

Nothing fancy about it. There is a reason for each drug I use. The goal is a predictable, safe, stable anesthetic with minimal side effects and a fast recovery. THIS is important in office based anesthesia

How about that clonidine...

J
 
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For kids I do sevo/nitrous induction. Switch to prop/remi target controlled infusion. And intubate. Throw nitrous back on. Yes; try to avoid vapour as much as possible. No vent so they are spontaneously breathing. For post op analgesia they get toradol and low dose ketamine. No post op narcs.

But back to clonidine...
Do you paralyze to intubate or intubate with the Remi?
Why avoid vapor?
Nasal or oral intubation?
What's your treatment for
If you can afford Remi then I wou,d think you could afford dex but I don't know for sure.

Back to clonidine.
Clonidine takes longer to work. Sticks around longer too. I wouldn't think it would be as useful in your setting.
 
Prop/remi for intubating kids and adults. Sux as backup. Nasal intubation. Avoid vapour when I can: less nausea, less oxygen usage, minimize chance of MH, quick recovery, smoother emergence....

Remi is $5 for 1mg (generic)
Dex is $50 for 200ug (off patent in 2019?)

Are you talking clonidine as an infusion? How about a single dose up front?

J
 
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Prop/remi for intubating kids and adults. Sux as backup. Nasal intubation. Avoid vapour when I can: less nausea, less oxygen usage, minimize chance of MH, quick recovery, smoother emergence....

Remi is $5 for 1mg (generic)
Dex is $50 for 200ug (off patent in 2019?)

Are you talking clonidine as an infusion? How about a single dose up front?

J

What difficult airway equipment do you have available?


I never would have agreed that pre-meds could be really effective either, however I started with a group that premeds almost everyone and the cases go smoother from a hemodynamic standpoint, I use significantly less intra-op narcotic, and patients seem to do really well. So after 7 months I'm a believer. Use similar approach to the above.

For our pilot PSH program which includes uncomplicated hips and knees, we do oxycontin 10, lyrica 150 (75 if super old or CKD) preop. Do adductor canal catheter/IPACK single shot for knee, no block for hips. Once in OR, CSE/mac for hips (epidural removed POD 1 @ 0600), spinal or cse/mac for knee. Post-op is 8 doses of tylenol 1gm, the first being IV given in PACU. Continue oxycontin and lyrica that night with dose scheduled BID from that point on. Oxy IR prns and morphine IV prns, dose based on VAS.
 
I use the McGrath MAC videoscope for all adults and only for the difficult child (rarely). I have LMAs, combitubes, oral airways, nasal airways, cricothyrotomy kit.

Back to clonidine...
 
I use the McGrath MAC videoscope for all adults and only for the difficult child (rarely). I have LMAs, combitubes, oral airways, nasal airways, cricothyrotomy kit.

Back to clonidine...

Clonidine isn't what you are looking for. Will lead to slower wake ups and longer recovery room stays. It's a good med to use for inpatients, not nearly so useful in outpatient setting.
 
Clonidine isn't what you are looking for. Will lead to slower wake ups and longer recovery room stays. It's a good med to use for inpatients, not nearly so useful in outpatient setting.
Thanks. Will have to wait for Dex to get
cheaper i guess.

Distribution half life is only 20min for IV clonidine though?
 
Nothing fancy about it. There is a reason for each drug I use. The goal is a predictable, safe, stable anesthetic with minimal side effects and a fast recovery. THIS is important in office based anesthesia

What deficiency in your current regimen are you hoping to correct? Or, if there isn't a deficiency, what are you hoping to improve?

I would think that with pediatric office-based dental work the majority of postop pain (if not all of it) should be covered by local, and the anesthesia is only needed so the kid will sit still during the procedure. So you're looking for fast on, fast off anesthesia, with minimal or no need for any lasting analgesia from the anesthetic. Clonidine isn't going to be helpful there.
 
One thing they may not have taught you in the fancy dental anesthesia residency is that polypharmacy kills. Again, stick with fewer meds and simple techniques; especially when in an office based setting.
I agree with this statement generally speaking.
 
Polypharmacy doesn't kill. Lack of knowledge, lack of vigilance, and carelessness DOES.
J
I agree with this statement as well. BUt most people who use polypharmacy dont have the latter (knowledge vigilance etc etc). Not all though
 
Dental anesthesia is BRUTAL BRUTAL work. SHould get paid boat loads.
 
What deficiency in your current regimen are you hoping to correct? Or, if there isn't a deficiency, what are you hoping to improve?

I would think that with pediatric office-based dental work the majority of postop pain (if not all of it) should be covered by local, and the anesthesia is only needed so the kid will sit still during the procedure. So you're looking for fast on, fast off anesthesia, with minimal or no need for any lasting analgesia from the anesthetic. Clonidine isn't going to be helpful
there.

I see lots of adults too. Some have very high tolerances... History of substance abuse or have chronic pain and on lots of meds. Also sometimes local anesthesia doesn't work. My patients are not paralyzed so if they get light, they will buck on the tube and move... Sometimes these patients are not so nice when they wake up... Looking for an adjunct (other than ketamine or mag) that will help with these cases. Trying to avoid narcs and vapour.

J
 
Dental anesthesia is BRUTAL BRUTAL work. SHould get paid boat loads.
Love what I do. That means much more than money in the long run.

I personally would hate to do call, deal with hospital politics, etc...
 
The pediatric floor has contacted our dept said that they tend to discontinue clonidine in post op kids because they are way too drowsy. I still don't give it much. Only for complicated ortho surgery with an expected pain problem. It seems to help in these patients. Simple case is like I expected: OVERKILL

The older attendings like it for patients with a previous history of cardiac disease.
 
There is a new paper out, about nebulized dexmedetomidine and some other drugs, for dental
 
There is a new paper out, about nebulized dexmedetomidine and some other drugs, for dental
In the University where I teach, we have been using dex as an oral premed or as an infusion in conjunction with propofol or vapour with good results on children. Markedly decreases MAC. Amazing recovery with no delirium or crying. They are potentially more sleepy afterwards but easily rousable.


J
 
In the University where I teach, we have been using dex as an oral premed or as an infusion in conjunction with propofol or vapour with good results on children. Markedly decreases MAC. Amazing recovery with no delirium or crying. They are potentially more sleepy afterwards but easily rousable.


J

My training institution used to use dex for pedi dental , pedi GI for emergence delirium as you are mentioning. We had a run of bradycardic kids and that stopped. Nothing is worth the fear of the bradycardic kid, trust me. Also I found you could never send the kid home (too sleepy for too long)

I think PO clonidine is "OK" as part of a cocktail especially for someone who may have untreated HTN going for ortho surgery. Otherwise I have used it in regional blocks without noticing much benefit/difference compared to dexamethasone, or honestly no additive just LA.

I use dexmedetomidine for the big bruiser opioid tolerant type. I prefer it to ketamine or remi and do not run other infusions with it. The perfect example is a long spine case or any long ENT, Ortho, case where the patient has seen anesthesia/opioids a lot before and you dont care about a crisp mental status on wake up - youd rather him stay sleepy and controlled.
 
In the University where I teach, we have been using dex as an oral premed or as an infusion in conjunction with propofol or vapour with good results on children. Markedly decreases MAC. Amazing recovery with no delirium or crying. They are potentially more sleepy afterwards but easily rousable.
Our peds guys discourage its use instead of midazolam, since it has no amnestic effect. Since the purpose of a pediatric premed is as much about their next surgery as it is for the current one, I tend to agree.

I think midaz is overused in adults and underused in kids. I'm not sure I see a good place for dexmedetomidine in kids.
 
My training institution used to use dex for pedi dental , pedi GI for emergence delirium as you are mentioning. We had a run of bradycardic kids and that stopped. Nothing is worth the fear of the bradycardic kid, trust me. Also I found you could never send the kid home (too sleepy for too long)

I think PO clonidine is "OK" as part of a cocktail especially for someone who may have untreated HTN going for ortho surgery. Otherwise I have used it in regional blocks without noticing much benefit/difference compared to dexamethasone, or honestly no additive just LA.

I use dexmedetomidine for the big bruiser opioid tolerant type. I prefer it to ketamine or remi and do not run other infusions with it. The perfect example is a long spine case or any long ENT, Ortho, case where the patient has seen anesthesia/opioids a lot before and you dont care about a crisp mental status on wake up - youd rather him stay sleepy and controlled.
I wonder if glycopyrrolate or atropine was given before the dex? I give glyco to all kids to dry secretions in anticipation of a deep extubation and to prevent brady with remi.

I also find the end point for discharge to be murky due to dex's unique effects. Can or should you send a sleepy kid home who is easily rousable?...
 
Our peds guys discourage its use instead of midazolam, since it has no amnestic effect. Since the purpose of a pediatric premed is as much about their next surgery as it is for the current one, I tend to agree.

I think midaz is overused in adults and underused in kids. I'm not sure I see a good place for dexmedetomidine in kids.

I completely agree with the above. Dex as an oral premed is not as good as midazolam for the reasons you have mentioned. Not to mention cost and slower onset (PO is slow. Absorption through buccal mucosa is quicker). I also found as a preop med it had more of an impact/benefit intraop as opposed to preop but at that point you might as well give it IV if you want to use it.

I also agree that midaz is overused in adults.

J
 
propadope -

On the subject of IV clonidine.

There is nothing written about it. You can't find an administration instruction or dose for IV anywhere (it seems).

I discovered this when I was trying to use it.

A wise and more experienced (with many years) explained to me that people don't use IV because in rare cases you can get malignant and untreatable hypertension from it - apparently pretty scary when it happens.
 
But other than that - excellent choice.

Talk to anesthesiologists with more than 20 years experience and apparently it was use A LOT as a premed.
 
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