Programs that matched through SOAP

[speakeroftruth]

Wanted to keep a running list of programs that matched through the SOAP to help medical students be aware of small percentage of terrible programs. I assume given the numbers this year, many of these will SOAP again. This is not my info but a colleague showed me the interview google doc and many negative comments about specific programs keep being deleted so wanted to save this one. Thank you to whoever on the google sheet made the initial post.

Search programs that have matched through the SOAP: Match Data

Bolded programs have matched through the SOAP twice.

2020 SOAPs (spots in parentheses if >1): Beaumont (3); Arizona (2); City of Hope (2); Kaiser (2); Tufts (2); Brooklyn Methodist (2); SUNY Brooklyn (2); Rochester (2); UVA (2); VCU (2); Arkansas; Davis; Loyola; Northwestern; Indiana; Kansas; Mississippi; Stony Brook; Buffalo; Case Western; Oklahoma; Thomas Jefferson; Tennessee; WVU; Utah (military only)

2019 SOAPs (spots in parentheses if >1): Rochester (3); Minnesota (2); Montefiore (2); SUNY Brooklyn (2); Case Western (2); Thomas Jefferson (2); UPMC (2); Arkansas; Arizona; Davis; Georgetown; Miami-Jackson; Kansas; Louisville; Beaumont; Mississippi; Dartmouth; Columbia; Upstate; Buffalo; Oklahoma; Tennessee; Utah (military only)

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[FrostyHammer]

And an FYI to med students, just because a program isn't on the above list doesn't mean it's not equally (or more) terrible - see the separate thread for that (ex- Baylor, LIJ, Allegany, NY Methodist, etc).

 

[RickyScott]

Also need to keep track of programs matching non us MDs. In order to avoid stain of the SOAP, programs will make offers to fmgs etc. ex: West Virginia consists of a linac in a trailer park. If they are not SOAPING, it is because they went with a convict or fmg.

 

[thecarbonionangle]

I encourage readers to visit the two threads discussing this issue: 1) candidates for closing 2) worst residency experience thread. Bad programs discussed there. Some recent residency interview reviews in a third thread are relevant as well.

i do not think Beaumont is a bad place. It is in fact a pretty pretty pretty good place. They are probably ranking terribly. Some aweful programs ended up “matching” while good places like Beaumont ended up in SOAP two years in a row.

 

[StIGMA]

Agree that Beaumont is a solid training program. More likely uninformed applicants don't know about it (may not even apply there) or don't want to live in the region.

 

[elementaryschooleconomics]

I'd like to also agree that Beaumont is a solid program - the only reason I didn't try to go there for residency was my personal location preference.

 

[Chartreuse Wombat]

Agree that Beaumont is a solid training program. More likely uninformed applicants don't know about it (may not even apply there) or don't want to live in the region.

The other possibility is programs creating an unrealistic rank list.

 

[Ray D. Ayshun]

I like the new insult, "they went with a convict."

 

[fiji128]

University of Virginia might also be a great place but not completely aware of how the US MD applicants are now choosing the programs they attend and not the other way around.

 

[goodkerma]

Want to echo that Beaumont is also solid and most peoples choices of program are swayed by personal lifestyle factors. SOAP list going to be extra long this year and that may not be reflective of a bad program. Places on this list have graduated excellent docs, some of which are in great jobs and high places.

To prospective students, if you really want to do radonc still....

1). Pick a program that has zero-risk of closing down on you
2.) If you have a specific state in mind, train in that state

 

[elementaryschooleconomics]

University of Virginia might also be a great place but not completely aware of how the US MD applicants are now choosing the programs they attend and not the other way around.

I ranked UVA highly when I was interviewing. I imagine they might also have a location issue - Charlottesville is amazing, but not if you're young and single and hate the outdoors.

 

[RADONC4285]

2.) If you have a specific state in mind, train in that state

This! It's way easier to find a job within the state in which you train. Definitely follow this advice, or at the very least look for a program in the same region where you want to end up

 

[seper]

good list. Beaumont is much worse than it used to be (faculty exodus, funny stuff with GK/business side). It was top 10 in early 2000's and now SOAP x3. STGM

 

[drewdog1973]

I encourage readers to visit the two threads discussing this issue: 1) candidates for closing 2) worst residency experience thread. Bad programs discussed there. Some recent residency interview reviews in a third thread are relevant as well.

i do not think Beaumont is a bad place. It is in fact a pretty pretty pretty good place. They are probably ranking terribly. Some aweful programs ended up “matching” while good places like Beaumont ended up in SOAP two years in a row.

Agree that Beaumont is a solid training program. More likely uninformed applicants don't know about it (may not even apply there) or don't want to live in the region.

Eh.. Beaumont is .. fine. There appears to be legacy love for them. There was an era when they were thought leaders on brachy for everything, early adopters of SBRT, doing useful outcomes research, and the attendings were speaking nationally/internationally. Now, not so much. They all went to MHP/21C. There is no Martinez, Vicini, Kestin, et. al. Look at faculty currently and tell me about anything interesting they are doing. 20 years ago, I'd say comparable to UMich if you wanted to go into practice. Now .. why? Plus, aren't they like 3 spots a year? Why? Who outside of Michigan or the Midwest knows the name? People confuse it for Texas. If you HAVE to do rad onc, wouldn't you want to go to a name brand place so you can eventually have some hospital be like "we have a NYU trained doc at our facility"?

(This is not to say that it's not a fantastic place to work. The faculty are extremely well taken care of, I'd be happy to work for Beaumont.)

 

[Krukenberg]

Eh.. Beaumont is .. fine. There appears to be legacy love for them. There was an era when they were thought leaders on brachy for everything, early adopters of SBRT, doing useful outcomes research, and the attendings were speaking nationally/internationally. Now, not so much. They all went to MHP/21C. There is no Martinez, Vicini, Kestin, et. al. Look at faculty currently and tell me about anything interesting they are doing. 20 years ago, I'd say comparable to UMich if you wanted to go into practice. Now .. why? Plus, aren't they like 3 spots a year? Why? Who outside of Michigan or the Midwest knows the name? People confuse it for Texas. If you HAVE to do rad onc, wouldn't you want to go to a name brand place so you can eventually have some hospital be like "we have a NYU trained doc at our facility"?

(This is not to say that it's not a fantastic place to work. The faculty are extremely well taken care of, I'd be happy to work for Beaumont.)

They’re working with IBA on proton arc therapy I believe. That’s more physics driven though.

 

[FrostyHammer]

2.) If you have a specific state in mind, train in that state

I disagree. If you're from Kansas and are good enough to match at Duke, why aim to match at the University of Kansas program? I would revise this statement to attempt to train at the best programs with the best job track records in the same geographic area.

 

[RADONC4285]

I disagree. If you're from Kansas and are good enough to match at Duke, why aim to match at the University of Kansas program? I would revise this statement to attempt to train at the best programs with the best job track records in the same geographic area.

sure. If you clearly have ties to a particular location, then you can likely afford to do residency elsewhere and come back there. But you picked Kansas. With all due respect to Kansas, anybody can find a job there due to lack of competition. If you want LA, SF, NYC, .... or anywhere "desirable", you better train there unless you're an all star

 

[thecarbonionangle]

If you’re ok with Topeka or Lawrence or even Salina then sure “anybody” can get a job there. Maybe. Getting a good job in KC is not easy as many people would like to live there. Its a big city. Especially since KU bought pps and has “satellites”

 

[medgator]

If you’re ok with Topeka or Lawrence or even Salina then sure “anybody” can get a job there. Maybe. Getting a good job in KC is not easy as many people would like to live there. Its a big city. Especially since KU bought pps and has “satellites”

Decent Midwest city imo. Middle of nowhere but big enough.. good BBQ

 

[RickyScott]

Want to echo that Beaumont is also solid and most peoples choices of program are swayed by personal lifestyle factors. SOAP list going to be extra long this year and that may not be reflective of a bad program. Places on this list have graduated excellent docs, some of which are in great jobs and high places.

To prospective students, if you really want to do radonc still....

1). Pick a program that has zero-risk of closing down on you
2.) If you have a specific state in mind, train in that state

No matter where you train you will have great difficulty w/employment. At a place like Kansas job offers will be almost non existent no matter how great you are.

 

[Neuronix]

Salina then sure “anybody” can get a job there.

I called my friend in Salinas recently trying to help out a graduating resident. Nope not hiring any time soon.

 

[RadOncDoc21]

I called my friend in Salinas recently trying to help out a graduating resident. Nope not hiring any time soon.

That job has been one of the ones we all knew about as residents and was always open. Let this be a sign of where we are today.

 

[thecarbonionangle]

I called my friend in Salinas recently trying to help out a graduating resident. Nope not hiring any time soon.

Damn with Salina gone, the breadline canary has died. Breadlines are here

 

[medgator]

I called my friend in Salinas recently trying to help out a graduating resident. Nope not hiring any time soon.

I've gotten the Kearney, NE email a few times, most recently yesterday. Maybe a good Salina/Rhinelander substitute

 

[thecarbonionangle]

Kearney, NE is very thirsty. i hear quite beautiful.

 

[metallica81788]

Kearney NE and Victoria TX are the new Salina(s)

 

[drewdog1973]

Marshfield, WI. NEVER FORGET!

 

[medgator]

Marshfield, WI. NEVER FORGET!

I think that was after chillicothe OH and Walla Walla, WA

 

[Ray D. Ayshun]

We need to go back in time to see who started this fallacy that the proportion of a programs residents that go into academics is a mark of good training, or altruism. It still seems to be an agreed upon metric based on the spreadsheet. I was kinda annoyed through residency with all the people writing papers about social missions in rad onc, like helping the underserved. All I needed to do to get away from em was leave academics, and go somewhere that's underserved. I never see em. Who knew?

 

[radoncopotamus]

Just to clarify: I'm pretty sure this list only shows what programs had spots eligible for SOAP. It doesnt tell you who took residents through the SOAP process or outside of SOAP or didnt take anyone.

 

[Radonc90]

A student asked me about Case Western.
Does anyone know what is going on there?
Wondering why Mitch went to Hershey PA (not bc of Hershey chocolate...)

 

[StIGMA]

A student asked me about Case Western.
Does anyone know what is going on there?
Wondering why Mitch went to Hershey PA (not bc of Hershey chocolate...)

promotion

Machtay named Cancer Institute associate director for clinical research | Penn State University

Case Western is affiliated with both University Hospitals and Cleveland Clinic. Not so familiar with the intricacies of how it is staffed by residents. Cleveland Clinic is solid. UH is in a rebuilding phase, looking for new chair, etc.

 

[RickyScott]

I can tell you Mitch is a genuinely good guy. Not many people like that at his level.

 

[thecarbonionangle]

We need to go back in time to see who started this fallacy that the proportion of a programs residents that go into academics is a mark of good training, or altruism. It still seems to be an agreed upon metric based on the spreadsheet. I was kinda annoyed through residency with all the people writing papers about social missions in rad onc, like helping the underserved. All I needed to do to get away from em was leave academics, and go somewhere that's underserved. I never see em. Who knew?

I agree. The amount of fake “woke” country club leftists is funny. I have known many in my career. So many of them pretend to be for certain causes then go off to live in their closed off neighborhoods away from “those people”. Of course they will be all for the underserved. But what have they done for URMs?? Be snobs from the ivory tower? stay away from their “undesirable” neighborhood or city? Gaslight them into a terrible program in a dead end field?

 

[elementaryschooleconomics]

We need to go back in time to see who started this fallacy that the proportion of a programs residents that go into academics is a mark of good training, or altruism. It still seems to be an agreed upon metric based on the spreadsheet. I was kinda annoyed through residency with all the people writing papers about social missions in rad onc, like helping the underserved. All I needed to do to get away from em was leave academics, and go somewhere that's underserved. I never see em. Who knew?

It drives me crazy. Every criticism levied at docs who go into private practice could be used to describe certain faculty members of my department: questionable treatments for the RVUs, try to work as little as humanly possible, not keeping up with the literature, etc. Sure, at academic institutions you will find a handful of folks really living the mission - producing meaningful research, practicing as close to perfect medicine as possible. But just because those people are associated with an academic institution doesn't mean their reputation is deserved by the other grimey rats trying to buy a ski condo at that same institution.

However, since these are the docs that get first crack at medical students and residents, the "academic medicine is the ultimate path!" ethos is poured on thick from day 1.

 

[RickyScott]

Seems strange because there is so little “private practice” left.

 

[elementaryschooleconomics]

Seems strange because there is so little “private practice” left.

Seems strange, right? Almost like...hmmm...tribalism is rampant in medicine and everyone must constantly put "other" groups down to justify the terrible, burned out, overworked lifestyle they've chosen to associate with?

Nah that can't be it.

 

[thesauce]

Can we sticky this thread?

 

[medgator]

Match Data

2013-2020 match data

 

[MidwestRO]

Also need to keep track of programs matching non us MDs. In order to avoid stain of the SOAP, programs will make offers to fmgs etc. ex: West Virginia consists of a linac in a trailer park. If they are not SOAPING, it is because they went with a convict or fmg.

Do you know anything whatsoever about the program at West Virginia?

 

[RickyScott]

Do you know anything whatsoever about the program at West Virginia?

0

 

[thecarbonionangle]

Do you know anything whatsoever about the program at West Virginia?

Do you think ARK and WV are good programs? And why?

 

[RickyScott]

Do you think ARK and WV are good programs? And why?

Let’s just assume they are great programs for arguments sake, why should they exist?

 

[medgator]

Do you know anything whatsoever about the program at West Virginia?

Do you know anything about Mayo in scottsdale? Great program with good people... Absolutely zero reason for either it or WVU to exist as training programs

 

[communitydoc13]

Let’s just assume they are great programs for arguments sake, why should they exist?

I know nothing about these programs and they may provide great clinical training for all I know.

There is only one reason that any residency program should exist and that is to fulfill a societal need for the type of radoncs that program produces. This is opposed to the common reason that residency programs have started and expanded, which is because they can.

I think all programs should contract and regional programs should only take residents when a regional need arises. This doesn't mean that the university hospital can't have a research program or invest in top end equipment and function as the regional tertiary referral center. It might mean a place like WV (just as an example), takes a single resident every 5 years because that is the level of need in WV or it might mean that WV doesn't have a program because UPMC has been clear with their mission statement and in their resident recruitment that their goal is to provide clinical radiation oncologists to "the region". There is an argument to be made that training in an area better prepares one for a career in that area.

Likewise, this same argument can be applied to the top tier programs as well, particularly considering the way they view themselves, which is as producers of "thought leaders" in the field and presumably not as producers of "enormously over-credentialed community radiation oncologists in satellite facilities that are part of the larger health care system" or "enormously well-credentialed private radiation oncologists in large, profit driven private practices that can effectively leverage insurance companies".

In this model, some MD/PhD types and some very academically ambitious MD only applicants will be competing for a very small number of spots at a relatively small number of programs (think how many spots you would save by halving spots at MDACC, Harvard, MSKCC, Duke, PENN, JHH, Yale, WashU, Vandy and a few others alone). Residents in these programs are already expected to do a national job search and to go into academics. They will be recruited at academic centers nationally (many of whom won't have any or at most very few residents in the new model) where they can be a complementary part of our non-centralized national cancer research initiative. The few applicants who get these spots will frankly have better opportunities than they do now. If they kick-ass as a researcher at say Ohio State, they may be recruited back to the mothership or some comparable institution. If you are in residency at another place, you know up front that you are unlikely to do high end research and that you are likely to serve the region as a clinician or perhaps clinical academic (curbed expectations are key to happiness).

As has been mentioned on other threads, there are lots of strategies to alleviate the clinical burden on academic attendings. They don't actually need residents to be academics. (We all know that in academics, teaching is the function least rewarded in terms of career trajectory anyway).

Unfortunately, every chair in the country both envisions themselves as a thought leader and is incentivized to maximize number of residents.

 

[medgator]

I know nothing about these programs and they may provide great clinical training for all I know.

There is only one reason that any residency program should exist and that is to fulfill a societal need for the type of radoncs that program produces. This is opposed to the common reason that residency programs have started and expanded, which is because they can.

I think all programs should contract and regional programs should only take residents when a regional need arises. This doesn't mean that the university hospital can't have a research program or invest in top end equipment and function as the regional tertiary referral center. It might mean a place like WV (just as an example), takes a single resident every 5 years because that is the level of need in WV or it might mean that WV doesn't have a program because UPMC has been clear with their mission statement and in their resident recruitment that their goal is to provide clinical radiation oncologists to "the region". There is an argument to be made that training in an area better prepares one for a career in that area.

Likewise, this same argument can be applied to the top tier programs as well, particularly considering the way they view themselves, which is as producers of "thought leaders" in the field and presumably not as producers of "enormously over-credentialed community radiation oncologists in satellite facilities that are part of the larger health care system" or "enormously well-credentialed private radiation oncologists in large, profit driven private practices that can effectively leverage insurance companies".

In this model, some MD/PhD types and some very academically ambitious MD only applicants will be competing for a very small number of spots at a relatively small number of programs (think how many spots you would save by halving spots at MDACC, Harvard, MSKCC, Duke, PENN, JHH, Yale, WashU, Vandy and a few others alone). Residents in these programs are already expected to do a national job search and to go into academics. They will be recruited at academic centers nationally (many of whom won't have any or at most very few residents in the new model) where they can be a complementary part of our non-centralized national cancer research initiative. The few applicants who get these spots will frankly have better opportunities than they do now. If they kick-ass as a researcher at say Ohio State, they may be recruited back to the mothership or some comparable institution. If you are in residency at another place, you know up front that you are unlikely to do high end research and that you are likely to serve the region as a clinician or perhaps clinical academic (curbed expectations are key to happiness).

As has been mentioned on other threads, there are lots of strategies to alleviate the clinical burden on academic attendings. They don't actually need residents to be academics. (We all know that in academics, teaching is the function least rewarded in terms of career trajectory anyway).

Unfortunately, every chair in the country both envisions themselves as a thought leader and is incentivized to maximize number of residents.

Great example with UPMC... Could honestly shut down WVU and Allegheny and tell PSU to not even think about it and that region of the country would still be fine for coverage

 

[TheWallnerus]

Unfortunately, every chair in the country both envisions themselves as a thought leader and is incentivized to maximize number of residents.

Thought leader. One of the fakest, weasely-worded phrases in medicine. "My thoughts are so far out in front of everyone else they actually reverse the flow of time!" Sorry I just watched Zack Snyder's Justice League. The speed force allowing backwards time travel is canonical.

 

[deleted1098629]

Thought leader. One of the fakest, weasely-worded phrases in medicine. "My thoughts are so far out in front of everyone else they actually reverse the flow of time!" Sorry I just watched Zack Snyder's Justice League. The speed force allowing backwards time travel is canonical.

Spoilers!

I am going to watch it at some point. It's a four-hour movie. I'd like to do it in one go, prostate willing!

 

[medgator]

Thought leader. One of the fakest, weasely-worded phrases in medicine. "My thoughts are so far out in front of everyone else they actually reverse the flow of time!" Sorry I just watched Zack Snyder's Justice League. The speed force allowing backwards time travel is canonical.

Debating whether i need a foley or not for one sitting....

 

[ramsesthenice]

Let’s be honest guys. The problem here is there is no leadership. We clearly have supply issues. It’s not debatable and our brand is suffering. Debating that everything is fine is not much different than arguing smoking didn’t cause cancer in the 80s. We can fuss and shame but no one is going to contract unless they are told they have to. Think about it. If you are a chair why would you cut a couple spots if no one else will? Are your 2-3 spots going to really matter that much in the grand scheme of things. Until demand gets so low there is no choice but to contract spots are not going anywhere. Period.

In my opinion I think all residencies should maintain a minimum of a 1:1 faculty resident ratio with 2 residents per year. If you have less than 8 faculty at your mothership no residency program. If you have 50 faculty at your mothership great, you still take 2 per year. I don’t love concentrating so much of our talent at a small number of programs that are frankly hostile to the realities of practice away from the ivory tower. I also think if you can’t support 2 you probably shouldn’t exist.

But who am I? Some of you know and some of you don’t. Doesn’t really matter. I’m a nobody in this scenario.