Programs that matched through SOAP

[Radonc90]

Someone needs to advise this poor soul (aspiring neurosurgeon that did not match into neurosurg) to consider radonc.
I am not joking, our field needs this kind of people. Anyone good enough to go into neurosurg is good enough for radonc...These are people with very strong work ethics and have an average of 3 divorces throughout their neurosurg career (j/k)...

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[ramsesthenice]

Someone needs to advise this poor soul (aspiring neurosurgeon that did not match into neurosurg) to consider radonc.
I am not joking, our field needs this kind of people. Anyone good enough to go into neurosurg is good enough for radonc...These are people with very strong work ethics and have an average of 3 divorces throughout their neurosurg career (j/k)...

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You laugh but where I went to med school one of the neurosurgeons told us his resident class gave him a hard time for never getting married because it brought down their divorce average ☹️

 

[DukeNukem]

Our program made a no SOAP pledge, we interviewed anyone who applied, and we matched 100% foreign. Program director super proud to have filled after prior SOAP. We would have never considered these people five years ago. It's all so two faced. Program is still actively looking for more foreign fellows and will consider ABR pathway to board certification to make up for prior program dropouts and lack of matches in prior years.

 

[radOresident]

Our program made a no SOAP pledge, we interviewed anyone who applied, and we matched 100% foreign. Program director super proud to have filled after prior SOAP. We would have never considered these people five years ago. It's all so two faced. Program is still actively looking for more foreign fellows and will consider ABR pathway to board certification to make up for prior program dropouts and lack of matches in prior years.

This should be considered unacceptable behavior from any program. Taking a foreign graduate should be an exceptional circumstance, not a fail-safe against the stigma of participating in the SOAP. Taking more of them to make up trainee volume from previous years is criminally negligent. There should be a special place in hell for the "leaders" of our field who do this.

Is there any way to find a list of programs who have matched FMGs? How many of them overlap with the list of worst residency programs that frequently get mentioned on here, eg. Baylor, UK, MUSC, LIJ, WVU, etc? To be clear, I am NOT saying to shame the people who matched at those programs, but rather to shine a light on the programs themselves.

 

[fiji128]

The bottom 65% of programs have no shame. They will do just about anything to fill their program with any warm body that can get credentialed. Personally I don't even know why anyone is surprised by this behavior. The "leadership" at these programs are only looking out for their department's bottom line. They could care less about how the specialty and its graduates do at large. This is evident by the public statements made by the likes of Randall, Potters, Steinberg, ect... Prove me wrong and show me the program that is actually reducing resident compliment. All you can do is avoid the specialty like the plague if you are an applicant with anything going for yourself, which medical students appear to be doing.

 

[radonc17]

Our program made a no SOAP pledge, we interviewed anyone who applied, and we matched 100% foreign. Program director super proud to have filled after prior SOAP. We would have never considered these people five years ago. It's all so two faced. Program is still actively looking for more foreign fellows and will consider ABR pathway to board certification to make up for prior program dropouts and lack of matches in prior years.

i’m not surprised. It’s like we talked about before, the goal posts have been shifted

so much so that match rate, SOAP all that jazz it’s just noise

I don’t think there’s anything wrong with taking IMG at all, but I find it highly suspicious/convenient when programs accept IMGs during the lowest US applicant pool ever

Especially after excluding them for 10+ years

why didn’t you give them a chance then?

 

[fiji128]

Folks with options are no longer applying like they once were. There is a vast pool of FMG and others that have no realistic path for residency training and ultimately board certification other then in things like path and rad onc. This is who the specialty is increasingly attracting. Those out there on twitter claiming this a great positive are full of it.

 

[deleted1098629]

Folks with options are no longer applying like they once were. There is a vast pool of FMG and others that have no realistic path for residency training and ultimately board certification other then in things like path and rad onc. This is who the specialty is increasingly attracting. Those out there on twitter claiming this a great positive are full of it.

Correct. Radiation Oncology, like pathology and radiology (prior to radiology reforms) used to attract many IMGs. Some of them came into the US not even grasping much English. They've made quite nice lives for themselves and good for them. Isn't that the American dream?

Then radiation oncology became elitist, shunned IMGs and even many AMGs not from "typical" backgrounds.

The thing is IMGs will take a job anywhere. Not having US citizenship automatically discards your application for many jobs. There are a few IMGs in US rad onc residency programs as of now. They get rejected from most jobs in their PGY5 year. Canadians who do endless fellowships in Canada and apply for US jobs are frequently rejected. My department has rejected many throughout the years even those that are ABR certified.

We have not matched an IMG. But I wonder if we had... will that IMG get any support in getting a job? I doubt it. I don't think the AMGs will get any help at all.

 

[Helper3]

Agree that Beaumont is a solid training program. More likely uninformed applicants don't know about it (may not even apply there) or don't want to live in the region.

Or there are others, I know of, ahem, who really wanted to be there and didn't even get an interview. So I guess these people, ahem, are worse than convicts?

 

[thecarbonionangle]

Or there are others, I know of, ahem, who really wanted to be there and didn't even get an interview. So I guess these people, ahem, are worse than convicts?

The severity of a conviction is in eye of beholder.

 

[Helper3]

Our program made a no SOAP pledge, we interviewed anyone who applied, and we matched 100% foreign. Program director super proud to have filled after prior SOAP. We would have never considered these people five years ago. It's all so two faced. Program is still actively looking for more foreign fellows and will consider ABR pathway to board certification to make up for prior program dropouts and lack of matches in prior years.

At first I was so angry when I read this but you are saying they are interviewing everybody? How is this possible? Does that mean that they get very few applications? OR I was wondering what is wrong with their accreditation or are they so malignant that US grads are not applying there? Also makes me question the purpose of a residency and under what pretense are they getting accredited? Shouldn't a residency be meant for training for the purposes of providing future doctors to this country?

 

[evilbooyaa]

Let’s be honest guys. The problem here is there is no leadership. We clearly have supply issues. It’s not debatable and our brand is suffering. Debating that everything is fine is not much different than arguing smoking didn’t cause cancer in the 80s. We can fuss and shame but no one is going to contract unless they are told they have to. Think about it. If you are a chair why would you cut a couple spots if no one else will? Are your 2-3 spots going to really matter that much in the grand scheme of things. Until demand gets so low there is no choice but to contract spots are not going anywhere. Period.

In my opinion I think all residencies should maintain a minimum of a 1:1 faculty resident ratio with 2 residents per year. If you have less than 8 faculty at your mothership no residency program. If you have 50 faculty at your mothership great, you still take 2 per year. I don’t love concentrating so much of our talent at a small number of programs that are frankly hostile to the realities of practice away from the ivory tower. I also think if you can’t support 2 you probably shouldn’t exist.

But who am I? Some of you know and some of you don’t. Doesn’t really matter. I’m a nobody in this scenario.

If we could just all agree with 1:1 resident to faculty ratio we'd eliminate 15-20 spots (out of 4-year program) off the bat. Those who have been criticized the most (M. Randall) on this forum know this, know that other attendings/chairs at larger faculty programs don't disagree with this concept, (when they came for the program that had < 1:1 ratio I did not speak up, because I had a 1:1 ratio), hence the push back and editorials in PRO.

Just off top of my head (may not be right, I'm not sure if there have been new hires at each of these insitutions) - 2 at Kentucky, U of Tennessee (probably whole program), U of Arkansas (probably whole programs). I'm sure there's more. Not sure where Baylor is now in that scheme.

 

[ramsesthenice]

If we could just all agree with 1:1 resident to faculty ratio we'd eliminate 15-20 spots (out of 4-year program) off the bat. Those who have been criticized the most (M. Randall) on this forum know this, know that other attendings/chairs at larger faculty programs don't disagree with this concept, (when they came for the program that had < 1:1 ratio I did not speak up, because I had a 1:1 ratio), hence the push back and editorials in PRO.

Just off top of my head (may not be right, I'm not sure if there have been new hires at each of these insitutions) - 2 at Kentucky, U of Tennessee (probably whole program), U of Arkansas (probably whole programs). I'm sure there's more. Not sure where Baylor is now in that scheme.

I think we can agree that as a minimum a 1:1 ratio should be an absolute must. Having more residents than faculty makes no educational sense. As a teaching faculty I feel similarly about taking 1 resident per year. I think there is great educational value of having someone train along with you. In a good environment you grow and develop together and benefit from peer interactions.

Further, I would also argue teaching programs really need to have at least 8ish faculty to expose residents to some diversity of thought. As an example, there are 2 of us in my group that treat prostate and we don’t do it the same. My counterpart uses the roach formula like the Bible and treats nodes a lot. Doesn’t do much Brachy either. Residents get to see both ways of practicing, review the data, and decide for themselves what makes the most sense to them. Helps avoid becoming too dogmatic and learning to think about how to approach evolving approaches.

 

[Krukenberg]

I might have missed it, but do we have a definitive list of programs that filled spots in the SOAP?

 

[spicynuggetfiend]

The cope in this thread is unreal. A specialty fallen from grace... I’m really praying for you guys lol

 

[tomballunger]

NRMP results posted public, 32 positions in the soap, 22 filled by soap. Don't forget about the many programs that avoided soap by simply interviewing and ranking everyone who applied. and the seats not filled by soap can easily be filled outside the match

 

[Baws]

NRMP results posted public, 32 positions in the soap, 22 filled by soap. Don't forget about the many programs that avoided soap by simply interviewing and ranking everyone who applied. and the seats not filled by soap can easily be filled outside the match

this.

my former program ranked people who failed step 1, had huge red flags on their MSPE, and were just so so bad on interview day

While I do think SOAP is bad, SOAP applicants are pretty high quality compared to the rest of the radonc pool

 

[fiji128]

It's pretty obvious how programs are playing the game of "We Must Fill". Only requirements are that the applicant must also find a prelim spot and be able to get credentialed.

Great that some programs maintained standards and did not participate in the SOAP this year but this is a small minority and I'm sure standards for interview/ranking for this next cycle will go ever lower.

 

[thecarbonionangle]

The hellpits in list ranked pretty much anybody with a pulse. i heard some ridiculous stories this round (people with criminal records, inability to speak english, multiple board failures, etc etc). Good luck in the breadlines for these people. Very sad stuff

 

[RaptorA]

this.

my former program ranked people who failed step 1, had huge red flags on their MSPE, and were just so so bad on interview day

While I do think SOAP is bad, SOAP applicants are pretty high quality compared to the rest of the radonc pool

The hellpits in list ranked pretty much anybody with a pulse. i heard some ridiculous stories this round (people with criminal records, inability to speak english, multiple board failures, etc etc). Good luck in the breadlines for these people. Very sad stuff

The funny thing is, a few years ago, one needed a PhD and stellar scores to have a serious chance at matching. Has any other field in medicine ever experienced such a swift and complete fall from grace?

 

[RadOncDoc21]

The funny thing is, a few years ago, one needed a PhD and stellar scores to have a serious chance at matching. Has any other field in medicine ever experienced such a swift and complete fall from grace?

To be fair, a few years prior to that, anybody could match into the field so we kinda went back to our roots.

The problem is who allowed the field to go to crap and unfortunately it is the same people that were able to get in at the time when the field was not as competitive as they made it to be.

 

[Neuronix]

this.

my former program ranked people who failed step 1, had huge red flags on their MSPE, and were just so so bad on interview day

While I do think SOAP is bad, SOAP applicants are pretty high quality compared to the rest of the radonc pool

The problem for programs is as follows.

It's really hard to justify continuing to expand a residency program to institutional GME when spots aren't filled or have to be filled through SOAP.

 

[w00tz]

The hellpits in list ranked pretty much anybody with a pulse. i heard some ridiculous stories this round (people with criminal records, inability to speak english, multiple board failures, etc etc). Good luck in the breadlines for these people. Very sad stuff

I imagine these people will probably end up reviewing prior auths/doing peer-to-peers for a living and ultimately dictating how we practice. Will need to mentally prepare myself for increased frequency and intensity of soul-sucking conversations with insurance companies.

 

[Baws]

I imagine these people will probably end up reviewing prior auths/doing peer-to-peers for a living and ultimately dictating how we practice. Will need to mentally prepare myself for increased frequency and intensity of soul-sucking conversations with insurance companies.

damn right...cuz no hospital is going to hire a male committed sexual assault at a college party

but a radonc residency did

 

[ROforbetterorworse]

I hate to say it but we will not be hiring current PGY2s onwards, especially ones who have been publicly kissing up to academia

We know the candidates are vastly different then when we all matched

Our group going to just see more patients ourselves with APM changes

Also I don’t feel like it’s our duty to just handout jobs. Academics created the problem so they need to absorb the excess supply

 

[Radonc90]

Some fun statistics...

 

[TheWallnerus]

Some fun statistics...

 

[seper]

Some fun statistics...

We don’t look that bad

 

[medgator]

We don’t look that bad

We are at a crossroads with psych... Suspect that's been coming for awhile now

 

[TheWallnerus]

How To Match Into Rad Onc (2020-21 Edition)
by
P.E. Wallnerus, DO

1. Be U.S. MD.
2. Have pulse.

 

[medgator]

How To Match Into Rad Onc (2020-21 Edition)
by
P.E. Wallnerus, DO

1. Be U.S. MD.
2. Have pulse.

Not even sure the first part is true anymore

 

[RTOGsaveRadonc]

Our program made a no SOAP pledge, we interviewed anyone who applied, and we matched 100% foreign. Program director super proud to have filled after prior SOAP. We would have never considered these people five years ago. It's all so two faced. Program is still actively looking for more foreign fellows and will consider ABR pathway to board certification to make up for prior program dropouts and lack of matches in prior years.

How is this possible? I know it may be hard to name the program but any hints?

there’s a list of soap programs but I think these ones are 10x scarier, if can’t matcha. Single US grad there are major red flags

 

[RickyScott]

Program has hit rock bottom when they are taking applicants who can’t even match into prelim year.

 

[evilbooyaa]

Program has hit rock bottom when they are taking applicants who can’t even match into prelim year.

One thing to not match prelim year, another thing to not even be able to SOAP into a prelim surg year somewhere, anywhere in the entire country!

 

[fiji128]

One thing to not match prelim year, another thing to not even be able to SOAP into a prelim surg year somewhere, anywhere in the entire country!

I personally know of several cases where this has happened. That's how uncompetitive rad onc has become at the low tier/problem programs. 5 years ago these same places could get MD/PhDs. These programs will need to figure how to couple prelim/advanced training into one match spot so this will no longer be an issue and they can take whoever without worry.

 

[Ray D. Ayshun]

I heard we're going to allow spending a year working at the prison infirmary to count as an intern year as long as you're released by July 1 of PGY-2.

 

[nexus73]

Can't you all just start working at like 1/2 speed and live off $250K/year and then you'd double the demand for radonc overnight?

 

[TheWallnerus]

Can't you all just start working at like 1/2 speed and live off $250K/year and then you'd double the demand for radonc overnight?

Why didn’t we think of that?!?

Many rad oncs already working at 1/2 speed or less (notably compared to 20y ago or more). Medicare data shows the upper 1/10 of rad oncs in America see greater than 1/2 of patients. Most depts however force a rad onc to sit in department (lots of YouTubing!), even if they don’t see patients that day or don’t interact with a human all day long.

 

[nexus73]

Why didn’t we think of that?!?

Many rad oncs already working at 1/2 speed or less (notably compared to 20y ago or more). Medicare data shows the upper 1/10 of rad oncs in America see greater than 1/2 of patients. Most depts however force a rad onc to sit in department (lots of YouTubing!), even if they don’t see patients that day or don’t interact with a human all day long.

What does that job pay? Maybe got to 1/8th speed.

 

[RadOncMegatron]

Why didn’t we think of that?!?

Many rad oncs already working at 1/2 speed or less (notably compared to 20y ago or more). Medicare data shows the upper 1/10 of rad oncs in America see greater than 1/2 of patients. Most depts however force a rad onc to sit in department (lots of YouTubing!), even if they don’t see patients that day or don’t interact with a human all day long.

Is there a Rad Onc YouTube fellowship I can sign up for? I can see the abstract now "The amount of YouTube watched per day correlates with RVU production and academic productivity (p < .05). We recommend daily YouTube be a requirement for all Radiation Oncologists."

 

[medgator]

Word on the RadOnc Street is that the incoming ASTRO chair just got shafted from her hellpit program in Morgantown. Pretty sure WVU still gonna fill that spot through the SOAP if they can this cycle, with or without a chair

 

[thecarbonionangle]

Word on the RadOnc Street is that the incoming ASTRO chair just got shafted from her hellpit program in Morgantown. Pretty eure WVU still gonna fill that spot through the SOAP if they can this cycle, with or without a chair

If you cant fill the hellpit for years, then you are no good. The thing is no matter who is there, the most gorgeous lipstick on a pig will not save WVU

 

[jondunn]

If you cant fill the hellpit for years, then you are no good. The thing is no matter who is there, the most gorgeous lipstick on a pig will not save WVU

I’m hearing even Albert Koong won’t TOUCH WVU

 

[elementaryschooleconomics]

If this is true, and I while there would be other factors in this decision - I assume consistently not being able to Match your residency program is disastrous for anyone in a leadership position, up to and including a Chair.

So, while I don't know if we'll ever know for sure - if the Match had something to do with it, we're witnessing a perfect example of why departments won't give up spots and will do anything to fill them.

 

[metview]

Who would ever want to be chair at a horrible program like WVU? It’s like a stain on your CV. Also, glad that she got the boot especially if the residency was started under her.

 

[jondunn]

Who would ever want to be chair at a horrible program like WVU? It’s like a stain on your CV. Also, glad that she got the boot especially if the residency was started under her.

Dan spratt says hi

 

[RickyScott]

Without knowing anything about wvu, my guess is she is dumb as f, given when she matched and this may have caused tension with younger faculty. I think one of them was complaining on Twitter that he was not allowed to adjust image fusions.

 

[TheWallnerus]

Word on the RadOnc Street is that the incoming ASTRO chair just got shafted from her hellpit program in Morgantown. Pretty sure WVU still gonna fill that spot through the SOAP if they can this cycle, with or without a chair

If you cant fill the hellpit for years, then you are no good. The thing is no matter who is there, the most gorgeous lipstick on a pig will not save WVU

FROM THE HISTORY BOOKS

Once upon a time in the United States of America WVU had the best radiation oncology website of any academic department anywhere. I am not sure why that was. But I learned a lot from it and it was a nice resource. Up until around 2002 I think, rad onc was not its own department at WVU and was within the Department of Radiology.

This is about the only proof I can provide. I spent 30 minutes tracking this s**t down.

CanceRx WVU Radiation Oncology Treatment Menu

EDIT:
Look how much radiation therapy for advanced NSCLC has evolved the last quarter century.

 

[thecarbonionangle]

FROM THE HISTORY BOOKS

Once upon a time in the United States of America WVU had the best radiation oncology website of any academic department anywhere. I am not sure why that was. But I learned a lot from it and it was a nice resource. Up until around 2002 I think, rad onc was not its own department at WVU and was within the Department of Radiology.

This is about the only proof I can provide. I spent 30 minutes tracking this s**t down.

CanceRx WVU Radiation Oncology Treatment Menu

EDIT:
Look how much radiation therapy for advanced NSCLC has evolved the last quarter century.

There is no mention of 4DCT so looks like some practice the WVU “old school way”. 2-5 cm margins and like ole timer “leaders” say “you do not want to miss”

 

[thecarbonionangle]

Without knowing anything about wvu, my guess is she is dumb as f, given when she matched and this may have caused tension with younger faculty. I think one of them was complaining on Twitter that he was not allowed to adjust image fusions.

She is FASTRO and got named chair. Has to be somewhat cunning