Question about MS4 electives

[rHinO1]

I was always under the impression that elective rotations were for exploring your interests and strengthening your application for residency. However, I noticed the school I'm planning to attend offers elective rotations during MS4. Wouldn't you already have applied to residency programs by then? So what is the purpose of electives, if you've already decided on a specialty and are gearing up for interviews by the time you start them? I guess I'm missing something...

Also, do people use all of their electives in a single specialty, or do they usually use them to test the waters in several different areas?

Thanks.

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[Catalystik]

Many will do an "audition" elective at an institution they have an interest in during July, August, September, in time to get a letter from program faculty that might help gain interviews. Late fall electives can still have an impact on the decision-making process. In general, though, one picks electives based on school requirements for graduation, testing interest in a specialty, personal preference/curiosity, trying out a city for livability, to spend time closer to home, etc. It can be an easy year or a challenging year depending on how you want to set things up.

 

[Caesar]

I believe many schools (I know mine does) include electives in the Medicine/Surgery clerkships so you will have exposure to those areas.

As Cat said, people use electives in 4th year as an audition for programs (you can do away rotations at places you'd like to do your residency). Also, if you are applying to Internal Med you might do electives of some sub-specialties to see if you have any interest in fellowship after residency (not that it really matters in 4th year, but type A is type A).

 

[LizzyM]

I have also heard of folks interested in internal medicine doing electives in radiology and dermatology to get additional experience in those areas which are relevant to the practice of general internal medicine.

 

[Perrotfish]

Timing: at my school, if you do all of your cores first and take not vacation, you start in on 4th year electives 9 month before graduation. Obviously more than half of your electives, then, are going to get done before you rank list is do and almost all of them will be done before the match.

Things you can do with 4th year electives:

1) audition/warm up for resdiency. Surgeons particlarly seem to like this plan. You can show you dream school what you can do and show on the first day of residency knowing how to sew/manage a vent/manage fluids/whatever.

2) Explore career options. Subspecialties, PM&R, EM, whatever isn't coveredby your cores.

3) Pick up skills relevant to, but not really taught well by, your future residency. This is a chance for future EM resident to spend a month reading ultrasounds, for future FMs to learn about sports medicine, for peds to spend a month on ID, and for anyone working jn the south to spend a month abroad learning Spanish.

4) Relax. There are lots of fourth year electives that are literally just vacations. I know of several where you work, on average, less than 10 hous a week. I think the majority of fourth years I know did one of these, but occasionally you'll run into some who did 7 month of nothing in a row (followed by two months of vacation). My feeling is: all things in moderation.

 

[mvenus929]

Depends on the school. The upperclassmen at my school start fourth year in May. We'll start in March. That's plenty of time to try out a few additional specialties or do 'audition' rotations prior to even applying for residency.

The schools that start rotations in August are going to be at a disadvantage comparatively, but that doesn't mean that they can't still do rotations that will help them in the long run.

 

[obgyny]

What is the timeline for applying to residency? When do interviews typically start and when is your application due?

I haven't really looked into these details yet, but I have been wondering how it works. I've noticed a lot of the specialties I want to try out probably won't be offered until 4th year. I have a few interests, but I'm definitely not settled on any one specialty yet, and I'm sure my interests will change throughout medical school. But I'd like to try out my options and remain open-minded before reaching any decision.

 

[Disinence2]

Most students do away "Audition" rotations during fall semester. Then during the spring you can use that time to check out some other random fields you may be interested in.

 

[lockjaw]

What is the timeline for applying to residency? When do interviews typically start and when is your application due?

I haven't really looked into these details yet, but I have been wondering how it works. I've noticed a lot of the specialties I want to try out probably won't be offered until 4th year. I have a few interests, but I'm definitely not settled on any one specialty yet, and I'm sure my interests will change throughout medical school. But I'd like to try out my options and remain open-minded before reaching any decision.

You can submit your application on September 1st, although it doesn't have to be complete at the time that you submit it (so you can add additional letters of recommendation later if you need to). Some programs start sending out interview invites in early September, others wait until after the MSPE/Dean's Letter comes out in November (although I've heard that the MSPE release might be moved up to October next year...?). The interview season typically runs from November to January, although some programs offer late October interviews and some extend into early February. It's very specialty specific, so once you have an idea of what specialty you might be applying in, ask your adviser about the typical interview timeline for that specialty.

 

[obgyny]

Most students do away "Audition" rotations during fall semester. Then during the spring you can use that time to check out some other random fields you may be interested in.

Just out of curiosity, if you do audition rotations in another city/state, what do people typically do for housing?

 

[Catalystik]

Just out of curiosity, if you do audition rotations in another city/state, what do people typically do for housing?

Mostly they are on their own finding a place to stay. A good resource I've seen on SDN would be a site similar to www.rotatingroom.com (run by med students, for med students in exactly this situation) to find a short-term place to stay without signing a lease.

 

[rHinO1]

Thanks for the good info everyone, I appreciate the replies.

 

[fahimaz7]

We can't do an OOS clerkship until the start of our 4th year. Some programs also require you to have completed your Sub-I as well, prior to the away rotation.

 

[alwaysaangel]

What is the timeline for applying to residency? When do interviews typically start and when is your application due?

I haven't really looked into these details yet, but I have been wondering how it works. I've noticed a lot of the specialties I want to try out probably won't be offered until 4th year. I have a few interests, but I'm definitely not settled on any one specialty yet, and I'm sure my interests will change throughout medical school. But I'd like to try out my options and remain open-minded before reaching any decision.

Yes, unfortunately you have to try to figure out what you want to do during the first three years either through core rotations or through interest groups/shadowing. By the end of third year you should have it narrowed down to a few options.

Most schools start 4th year in June/July. So you have 3-4 months to complete some elective rotations in the specialties that interest you and complete a few audition rotations at outside hospitals.

Applications submit in Sept and Oct
Deans letter comes out Nov 1st (although few programs wait for this anymore)
Interviews are offered in mid-Sept through January (Dec and Jan invites would be mostly offers made after another applicant canceled)
Interviews are completed Nov-early Feb (so really you can complete audition rotations as late as Nov/Dec)
Rank lists are due late Feb, Match day is the 3rd Thur of March

I hear though that in coming years things are going to change. Applicants won't be submitted until Oct 1st and Deans letters will come out Oct 15th. This will change the timeline a bit.

 

[bretticus]

If you're not even in med school yet, I would not worry about this. Even if you're accepted, it's just a long way off. The details may even change before you get there. Open forum obviously, but I'd spend my time on other things personally.

What I would NOT do is this: Whenever you become a first year, you will hear about meetings from specialty interest groups around March about the match process. This is for 3rd years who are thinking about applying in these specialties, not first years who want to ask questions like "what is a transitional year?" Trust me, it is very annoying to people who really need information. Don't be that guy -- there are plenty of other resources if you're curious.

 

[mvenus929]

If you're not even in med school yet, I would not worry about this. Even if you're accepted, it's just a long way off. The details may even change before you get there. Open forum obviously, but I'd spend my time on other things personally.

While I wouldn't worry about the specific MS4 electives, if you're looking between multiple schools at this point, knowing how much time they have prior to residency applications for elective rotations may play some role into which school you end up going to.

 

[gravitywave]

While I wouldn't worry about the specific MS4 electives, if you're looking between multiple schools at this point, knowing how much time they have prior to residency applications for elective rotations may play some role into which school you end up going to.

this is huge!!! for those of you who are fortunate enough to have a choice of med schools, the ones with shortened preclinical curricula should be higher on your lists. it does two things for you:

1) if you wrap with basic science and write Step I in the spring (or better yet, the winter), then your MS4 electives will start that much sooner after your clerkship year. this gives you more time to explore career interests, and to do away rotations if that's part of your plan.

2) i've found that it can really cut down on the amount of fluff that you get pimped with on exams. here we pretty much hammer out all of MS1 in the first twenty weeks, and that will keep the faculty honest in terms of what they have time to teach you. there isn't going to be a lot of meaningless detail from the minutiae of people's PhD dissertations; it should instead be pretty Step-oriented.

 

[bretticus]

While I wouldn't worry about the specific MS4 electives, if you're looking between multiple schools at this point, knowing how much time they have prior to residency applications for elective rotations may play some role into which school you end up going to.

Are you referring to electives during third year, or do some schools not let you have electives until late fourth year? I would agree if you can't do electives or away rotations before applying to residency, that would really suck. Surely most schools let you at least do a couple of electives before submitting?

this is huge!!! for those of you who are fortunate enough to have a choice of med schools, the ones with shortened preclinical curricula should be higher on your lists. it does two things for you:

1) if you wrap with basic science and write Step I in the spring (or better yet, the winter), then your MS4 electives will start that much sooner after your clerkship year. this gives you more time to explore career interests, and to do away rotations if that's part of your plan.

2) i've found that it can really cut down on the amount of fluff that you get pimped with on exams. here we pretty much hammer out all of MS1 in the first twenty weeks, and that will keep the faculty honest in terms of what they have time to teach you. there isn't going to be a lot of meaningless detail from the minutiae of people's PhD dissertations; it should instead be pretty Step-oriented.

If someone is indeed applying to a school with a curriculum like this, that would be something to consider. How many are there though? Personally, I would be leery of such compression -- you can make it sound rosy, but one way or another it's going to suck cramming that much information into a small amount of time. You may also be cutting out a whole summer that you could be doing research.

 

[searun]

I just finished my final 4th year rotation in a hospital in Southeast Asia. I am done with all of my 4th year requirements. I have nothing to do until graduation in mid May. So I flew to an island in the sun, sitting on the beach on the other side of the planet, drinking some brews in the bar, looking at and chatting with the girls, will fly back to the States in mid May to graduate, begin my residency in June, so basically, I am chilling out, working on my tan, dancing the night away, on the beach, and places more unsavory, being part of the good, the bad, and the ugly. It is all good.

 

[gravitywave]

If someone is indeed applying to a school with a curriculum like this, that would be something to consider. How many are there though? Personally, I would be leery of such compression -- you can make it sound rosy, but one way or another it's going to suck cramming that much information into a small amount of time. You may also be cutting out a whole summer that you could be doing research.

if it's good enough for Columbia, Duke, Stanford, Penn, UCSF, and UCSD then it's good enough for me i'm pretty convinced that all the reduced time does is squeeze out all the fluff. our Step scores don't seem to have suffered, either.

what summer are you referring to? we still have an eight week summer break between MS1 and MS2.

 

[jaspr]

Ideally, your 4th year of medical school should look something like this:

1) Sub-Is or audition rotations in your field of choice, completed early enough to receive LORs and post grades prior to the submission of your residency application.

2) Vacation or easy rotations that allow you as much time to interview as possible during late Fall/early Winter.

3) More vacation and even easier rotations until you graduate.

The more meaningful elective blocks come during your 3rd year, when most people are deciding what field to apply to. Fourth year is more about getting your application ducks in a row than anything else.

 

[mvenus929]

Are you referring to electives during third year, or do some schools not let you have electives until late fourth year? I would agree if you can't do electives or away rotations before applying to residency, that would really suck. Surely most schools let you at least do a couple of electives before submitting?

[Since you're already a fourth year, I'm saying this mostly for the benefit of anyone following this conversation]

It depends on how you define third year. Most medical schools don't let you do electives prior to finishing your required clerkships. At my school, third year is your required, core clerkships. It is not an academic year. So my class will start third year in February of next year, though technically we'll still be in the second academic year of medical school.

So, in essence, at my school, fourth year begins in March of your 'third' academic year, and it is over a year long. Those schools that start fourth year early, and thus allow students to take perhaps several months of electives before applying to residency have an advantage over schools that don't start fourth year until July or August, when applications are due in Septemberish (meaning you have a month or two to decide what residency you want to apply for if you were previously undecided or didn't rotate through your desired specialty in third year).

If someone is indeed applying to a school with a curriculum like this, that would be something to consider. How many are there though? Personally, I would be leery of such compression -- you can make it sound rosy, but one way or another it's going to suck cramming that much information into a small amount of time. You may also be cutting out a whole summer that you could be doing research.

We do pre-clerkship curriculum in 17 months (including time off for Thanksgiving x2, winter break, two breaks in the 'spring', and summer). The class to come in after us will have the same basic timeline, but they will get more time off, and the spread of subjects will be a little different. I have no doubt that we'll be prepared for Step I and the wards by the time we're done. And a good number of people in my class will be during research over the summer.

I don't think we're any worse off in terms of volume than any other medical school, we just get it presented in a more logical way (at least, it seems more logical to me), and we don't have to deal with a lot of the basic scientists going on about their research, when it isn't clinically relevant.