Question for atheists

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nimbus

nimbus

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What do you do when your patients ask you to join them in prayer before going off to sleep? This happens to me a couple times a year. I just stand there and give them their time.
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nimbus said:
What do you do when your patients ask you to join them in prayer before going off to sleep? This happens to me a couple times a year. I just stand there and give them their time.
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Offer to call them a chaplain.
 
nimbus said:
What do you do when your patients ask you to join them in prayer before going off to sleep? This happens to me a couple times a year. I just stand there and give them their time.
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Same, just play along. Unless they are Episcopalian, I dont tolerate that.
 
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I work with a surgeon likes to offer a group, hand holding prayer right before incision for every case. I go usually go along with it and respect the moment.
 
I'm a godless heathen myself, but if they want me to stand there and hold their hand and listen while they or a family member prays, I'm happy to do that. Everything else I do is aimed at their safety and comfort, and this is an easy thing to do to make them feel less anxious about a scary experience.
 
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Being an atheist does not prohibit you from being compassionate.
The pre-op holding area is a place where people are at their most vulnerable states and our job is to do everything we can to make them feel secure and well cared for.
 
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I stand there and am supportive. I hold the patient's hand if appropriate.

One thing I never understand is bowing your head. I never do. It would seem false to lower my head...and it gives me a chance to see who the other atheists are!
 
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Yeah, I just play along basically. Was at a fundraiser the other day and they did a prayer before dinner and I'll usually just lower my head like everyone else and respect the process.
 
'Everything' is beyond my job description.

I'll quietly slip out of the room if patients start to pray.
 
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Thanks for all the responses.

It's an uncomfortable dilemma for me. I don't want to debate religion with a patient immediately before their procedure. It is obviously not the right setting for that. And I want to develop rapport and connection and support them as much as I can. One the other hand, I feel disingenuous and inauthentic participating in such an exercise. I respect their beliefs but I do feel it's an imposition when they ask me to participate. In the end I stay and observe without actively participating.
 
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nimbus said:
Thanks for all the responses.

It's an uncomfortable dilemma for me. I don't want to debate religion with a patient immediately before their procedure. It is obviously not the right setting for that. And I want to develop rapport and connection and support them as much as I can. One the other hand, I feel disingenuous and inauthentic participating in such an exercise. I respect their beliefs but I do feel it's an imposition when they ask me to participate. In the end I stay and observe without actively participating.
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This is not about your beliefs; this is about the patient's God/placebo-linked GABA-receptor. Seriously, think about it as an effective placebo sedative medication. I am sure you are a good doctor who cares deeply about his/her patients (otherwise you wouldn't have any dilemma).

You are not disingenuous if you let them know that you are not a (very) spiritual person, but you will silently participate in their exercise (if you are asked to do so). It is an imposition on you, but so are many other things you probably do on a daily basis, based on patient or surgeon preference.

I am asked pretty rarely to pray with patients, probably because I am a foreigner, but God is part of the discussion many times. I always try to avoid either implying that I share the same beliefs, or that I don't (my specific beliefs are not their business, if they ask). All I try to convey is respect for the patient's beliefs, and that I'll do my best to respect their wishes (but safety comes first). If they (tell me that they will) pray for me, I thank them. If, when they wake up, they thank God and ignore me, that's fine, too. Etc. When about religion, I just try to be as diplomatic as I can; after all, America is special because of our diversity and tolerance.

I let patients wear their religious necklaces during surgery. If a patient has a small icon that s/he wants to be kept in his/her palm while under anesthesia, I will pay attention that it happens, the same way I would check pressure points. If they want to pray before pre-oxygenation, in the OR, I will respectfully wait for them to finish. I will go the extra mile to make them feel spiritually comfortable, the same way I would reposition their pillow or nasal cannula.

Would you tell a little kid that there is no Santa Claus? No, you would let him/her believe whatever s/he wants, even promise to let Santa know that s/he was good during surgery. ;)

P.S. I am not an atheist. I think the OP's question is one of religious tolerance (How far do we go?), regardless of one's beliefs.
 
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nimbus said:
Thanks for all the responses.

It's an uncomfortable dilemma for me. I don't want to debate religion with a patient immediately before their procedure. It is obviously not the right setting for that. And I want to develop rapport and connection and support them as much as I can. One the other hand, I feel disingenuous and inauthentic participating in such an exercise. I respect their beliefs but I do feel it's an imposition when they ask me to participate. In the end I stay and observe without actively participating.
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I had a patient who I had taken care of a few times in the hospital who had her family bring in a homemade (christian /had a cross attached) rosary for me. I told her I am not christian (thought saying I am an atheist would be too much of a shock for her) and did not feel right accepting.

The patient said it would make her happy if I accepted it. So I did. I did not read much into it except that she wanted to express her appreciation.
 
What I think is weird is when the surgeon asks the patient if they would like to do a quick prayer before surgery.

There is one at my hospital that does it every time.

What!? Is the patient going to refuse right before I put them to sleep and the surgeon starts operating? Probably not, even if they are very uncomfortable with the whole idea.
 
I would draw the line at active participation. I would decline if asked to lead such a prayer, though that has never happened to me.


But this isn't really a question just for atheists. It's not much different than a Catholic patient asking someone who's Mormon or Muslim or Jewish or Wiccan or whatever else. I wouldn't fault any of them for declining to participate in something counter to their beliefs.

If anything, I think it's easier being an atheist. There aren't any rules for me to break. It's easy to be gracious and I'm secure enough in my own (non)belief that I don't feel threatened by it. They're not teachers asking to lead my kids in group prayer at the start of every day at the public school. Mostly they're just worried, vulnerable people extending an invitation to be near them while they soothe their nerves with a comforting ritual.

I used to kind of worry about the insincerity of my passive presence, but they don't seem to care, so why should I?
 
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I bet if the people knew you guys were atheist, the patient would still want you there to pray with them. I think they are more concerned about God guiding your decisions then what you believe in.

And I find it hard to believe that some of you wouldn't participate just because you don't believe in God. What does that have to do with anything? If the patient asked you to please give lidocaine on induction because it blunts response to laryngoscopy - and you have read the studies and know that isn't the case - would you refuse to do it because you didn't believe in it? What if they ask for preoperative gabapentin because they want to prevent post operative pain and they have the pills in their hands? Are you going to stop them because you don't believe in pre-emptive analgesia? Or a million things that they want done in their care that you don't believe it - but does not change your anesthetic, wakeup, increase risk but is only a minor inconvenience to you? You won't do it?

Strange I say....
 
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inmyslumber said:
I had a patient who I had taken care of a few times in the hospital who had her family bring in a homemade (christian /had a cross attached) rosary for me. I told her I am not christian (thought saying I am an atheist would be too much of a shock for her) and did not feel right accepting.

The patient said it would make her happy if I accepted it. So I did. I did not read much into it except that she wanted to express her appreciation.
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I am a Christian, but I don't care if they want to pray to Big Bird, I'll oblige. I can respect someone's religion but not believe in it. Big difference. Everyone feels like they need to express their opinion on hot button subjects. Sometimes, it just isn't necessary. There is no personal harm to me or my patient if I just respect their wishes and bow my head to Big Bird.
 
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Ignatius J said:
I am a Christian, but I don't care if they want to pray to Big Bird, I'll oblige. I can respect someone's religion but not believe in it. Big difference. Everyone feels like they need to express their opinion on hot button subjects. Sometimes, it just isn't necessary. There is no personal harm to me or my patient if I just respect their wishes and bow my head to Big Bird.
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I wouldn't argue with them about religion. I wouldn't interfere with their desire to talk into thin air that they imagine is listening and gives a ****. I just don't take part. There's a big difference between respecting people's RIGHT to believe (not the beliefs themselves) and being obliged to join the delusion. They can believe whatever they want as long as they keep it to themselves. They should respect our rights to not believe and leave us out of it.

My belief is to NOT pray. I don't try to force it on them. They should have the same consideration. The most participation they get is my allowing the surgical delay caused by their mumbo-jumbo.
 
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nolagas said:
I wouldn't argue with them about religion. I wouldn't interfere with their desire to talk into thin air that they imagine is listening and gives a ****. I just don't take part. There's a big difference between respecting people's RIGHT to believe (not the beliefs themselves) and being obliged to join the delusion. They can believe whatever they want as long as they keep it to themselves. They should respect our rights to not believe and leave us out of it.

My belief is to NOT pray. I don't try to force it on them. They should have the same consideration. The most participation they get is my allowing the surgical delay caused by their mumbo-jumbo.
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Seems to be a passionate topic for you. No one is saying you're obliged. I am just simply saying that I can go sit in the corner or stay and bow my head to Big Bird and it affects me the same amount. Some people are passionate and take offense to religious stuff and that's okay.
 
nimbus said:
What do you do when your patients ask you to join them in prayer before going off to sleep? This happens to me a couple times a year. I just stand there and give them their time.
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Point out that since God has their back, they can gtfo and go home; they don't need to be here, God has their back. Unless of course, they're willing to admit that he doesn't, and that if he needs to be asked, he's either not omnipotent, or some kind of sadist who likes to hear you beg.
 
the_fella said:
Point out that since God has their back, they can gtfo and go home; they don't need to be here, God has their back. Unless of course, they're willing to admit that he doesn't, and that if he needs to be asked, he's either not omnipotent, or some kind of sadist who likes to hear you beg.
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Pretty *****ic embarrassed to be in the same profession as someone like this.
 
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the_fella said:
Point out that since God has their back, they can gtfo and go home; they don't need to be here, God has their back. Unless of course, they're willing to admit that he doesn't, and that if he needs to be asked, he's either not omnipotent, or some kind of sadist who likes to hear you beg.
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Ugh.
 
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I acknowledge the fact that there is no higher-powered beardy God watching everything to whom we can ask for assistance via the ritual of prayer. It's a very silly proposition, right up there with asking Santa Claus to bring gifts.

With that perspective, prayer becomes less about supplicating to an invisible friend, and more about calming the nerves, or thinking that one has "done everything" before going in before a big procedure.

I bet lots of Jesusy types would kick themselves for not praying if something went wrong, and would conversely say that it was "God's will" if they had prayed and the fan was still hit with crap.

When I was in these situations I'd just play along. To do otherwise due to atheism is a kind of zealotry in my opinion. If they asked I told them I did not share their faith and that the faith I hold (none) was something I would rather keep to myself.
 
Over9000 said:
I acknowledge the fact that there is no higher-powered beardy God watching everything to whom we can ask for assistance via the ritual of prayer. It's a very silly proposition, right up there with asking Santa Claus to bring gifts.

With that perspective, prayer becomes less about supplicating to an invisible friend, and more about calming the nerves, or thinking that one has "done everything" before going in before a big procedure.

I bet lots of Jesusy types would kick themselves for not praying if something went wrong, and would conversely say that it was "God's will" if they had prayed and the fan was still hit with crap.

When I was in these situations I'd just play along. To do otherwise due to atheism is a kind of zealotry in my opinion. If they asked I told them I did not share their faith and that the faith I hold (none) was something I would rather keep to myself.
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Although we come from different sides of the fence, myself a Christian and you an atheist (Who let the damn Christian in this thread?), I think we both agree. I think it is excessive to not be able to set aside passionate views regarding religion for two minutes so the patients could feel more at ease.

I would pray with a Muslim, Jew, Buddhist, or whatever else is out there. Maybe not a devil worshipper. I may draw the line there. It's all about the greater good for the patient. I'm sure the God I pray to would understand.
 
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I practice in a small, southern town, and it is a common occurrence for church members, a pastor, or the hospital chaplain to be bedside with patients preoperatively. As an agnostic, when asked to participate in prayer, I always do. I hold hands, but keep my head up, eyes open, and respect the importance this plays to my patients and their families. I've never been asked to lead a prayer, but if ever asked, I would tactfully and respectfully decline, and defer to a family member. I believe that finding some commonality with your patient breeds trust. The preoperative area is the place where we quickly build that trust, and empathize/sympathize with our scared patients.
 
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What if a patient said he was nervous and would feel better snuggling into your bosom (if you had one)?

...so we aren't actually expected to do things we find inappropriate just because it might make a patient comfortable.
 
bashwell said:
Sounds like you're committing the fallacy of the excluded middle, at least for religions which believe God uses means like medicine to heal (e.g. orthodox Jews, many if not most Christians excepting faith healers).

On a practical note, could you really say to someone who asks, "Since God has your back, GTFO and go home. You don't need to be here"? If so, you're a harder man than I am.
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To make a point, yes. Though I certainly wouldn't kick them out or anything.
 
nolagas said:
What if a patient said he was nervous and would feel better snuggling into your bosom (if you had one)?

...so we aren't actually expected to do things we find inappropriate just because it might make a patient comfortable.
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Apples. Oranges.
 
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the_fella said:
To make a point, yes. Though I certainly wouldn't kick them out or anything.
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It would be wildly inappropriate to ever prod or antagonize a patient under your care "to make a point" about religion - this is something that is self evident to normal people, and covered in basic ethics classes to catch the people clueless enough to need to be told. Perhaps you haven't taken that class yet?
 
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Ignatius J said:
I would pray with a Muslim, Jew, Buddhist, or whatever else is out there. Maybe not a devil worshipper. I may draw the line there. It's all about the greater good for the patient. I'm sure the God I pray to would understand.
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I would have more fun engaging in a prayer to the devil than another "higher power".
 
What interesting post. To be honest I feel kind of relieved there are so many other atheists out there. I keep my atheist religious beliefs to myself and rarely would admit them outside of an anonymous forum. I've often felt like I was the only atheist doc in the hospitals I've worked in since so many religious people wear their religion on their sleeve. I'm glad there are so many others that believe in reason and not superstition or to just believe what they were taught when they were young despite the lack of evidence!
 
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Many times, children come into preop holding their teddy bear security blanket. They like it when I talk to the teddy bear and play along with their pretend world where the bear is real. They like it when I put a mask on the bear first. Watching the bear "go to sleep" helps them accept the mask. I know the bear isn't real and isn't really going to sleep, but I have no problem playing along.

There are some much older "children" who need a more elaborate version of the teddy bear security blanket fantasy. They have an invisible, omnipotent teddy bear in the sky. They like it when I talk to their teddy bear, or at least respectfully listen to them talking to him before they go to sleep. It helps them be at peace. I know the bear isn't real, but I have no problem playing along.

- pod
 
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castafari said:
What interesting post. To be honest I feel kind of relieved there are so many other atheists out there. I keep my atheist religious beliefs to myself and rarely would admit them outside of an anonymous forum. I've often felt like I was the only atheist doc in the hospitals I've worked in since so many religious people wear their religion on their sleeve. I'm glad there are so many others that believe in reason and not superstition or to just believe what they were taught when they were young despite the lack of evidence!
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You are NOT alone. And although the United States is a highly religious nation, there is a relatively high incidence of atheism among scientists and scientifically trained individuals. In a way, science is the belief system.

I do hope one day when a patient asks me to pray with them, they can just accept an answer like "No thanks, I'm an atheist" without judgement or reaction.
 
periopdoc said:
Many times, children come into preop holding their teddy bear security blanket. They like it when I talk to the teddy bear and play along with their pretend world where the bear is real. They like it when I put a mask on the bear first. Watching the bear "go to sleep" helps them accept the mask. I know the bear isn't real and isn't really going to sleep, but I have no problem playing along.

There are some much older "children" who need a more elaborate version of the teddy bear security blanket fantasy. They have an invisible, omnipotent teddy bear in the sky. They like it when I talk to their teddy bear, or at least respectfully listen to them talking to him before they go to sleep. It helps them be at peace. I know the bear isn't real, but I have no problem playing along.

- pod
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This is a fantastic analogy.
 
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nimbus said:
You are NOT alone. And although the United States is a highly religious nation, there is a relatively high incidence of atheism among scientists and scientifically trained individuals. In a way, science is the belief system.

I do hope one day when a patient asks me to pray with them, they can just accept an answer like "No thanks, I'm an atheist" without judgement or reaction.
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That would be great. It would be even better if they didn't ask...
Ignatius J said:
I am a Christian, but I don't care if they want to pray to Big Bird, I'll oblige. I can respect someone's religion but not believe in it. Big difference. Everyone feels like they need to express their opinion on hot button subjects. Sometimes, it just isn't necessary. There is no personal harm to me or my patient if I just respect their wishes and bow my head to Big Bird.
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At least big bird is a real puppet.
 
Goodness, what's with the militant atheism? If I - as the dreaded evangelical Christian boogeyman - can take care of patients from all different traditions and lifestyles, what excuses this level of hatred and mockery for the beliefs of others by those who want to believe they are more enlightened?
 
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So, you are saying that if you, as an evangelical Christian, were seeing me in preop, and I asked you to join me in Salat, prostrate yourself, and say "Allahu Akbar. Subhana Rabbiyal A'ala" before we went into the OR, you would have no problem with doing this?

What if I asked you to join me in and invocation to Belial, Flereous and Ashtaroth asking them to be present in the OR during surgery, and take the pain away? What if I asked you to pray that Ronwe would possess you and work through you to give you the knowledge you need to get me through surgery? Would that be a problem?

Why should I be any less bothered by my patient's supplication that I be possessed by Jehovah to guide my hands and mind?

I am not significantly more enlightened than you, only slightly. I only believe in one less god than you do. You are already 90 plus % of the way there.

- pod
 
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