Question on AOA and grades on NRMP

[Transformers]

Whenever I see the NRMP stats for derm, I notice half who match are AOA, which means half who matched were not AOA.

For step 1, I understand the objective cutoff for a good score and having a screening cutoff, but how important is AOA and clinical grades in light that only half who match dont have AOA? 3rd year grading is unfortuunately partially subjective too and, AOA, even more, since in takes into account of Extracurriculars plus class voting...

My ultimate question really is for those who matched without AOA or clinical grading, did other factors compensate (an even higher step like greater than 260, research, honors in derm clerkships, letters, med schcool reputation etc...)?

I guess the same goes for step 1 score, if the match mean is a 240ish, half are below so I was wondering what factors did they have to do well elsewhere to match?

Thanks.

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[BaylorDermClinRes]

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[asmallchild]

Whenever I see the NRMP stats for derm, I notice half who match are AOA, which means half who matched were not AOA.

For step 1, I understand the objective cutoff for a good score and having a screening cutoff, but how important is AOA and clinical grades in light that only half who match dont have AOA? 3rd year grading is unfortuunately partially subjective too and, AOA, even more, since in takes into account of Extracurriculars plus class voting...

My ultimate question really is for those who matched without AOA or clinical grading, did other factors compensate (an even higher step like greater than 260, research, honors in derm clerkships, letters, med schcool reputation etc...)?

I guess the same goes for step 1 score, if the match mean is a 240ish, half are below so I was wondering what factors did they have to do well elsewhere to match?

Thanks.

Every program has different quirks. The program I matched at places high emphasis on Step 1 scores and connections (unfortunately, this is stuff you know after matching and participating in the selection process for residents)

But as mentioned above, it's all about putting the best possible package forwards. If you aren't AOA or aren't sporting the best clinical grades, you'll want to compensate through high Step 1 scores, good med school reputation, meaningful research, outstanding letters of recommendation from dermatologists, connections, connections, connections, etc.

 

[pinecat]

I had none

 

[DermViser]

Whenever I see the NRMP stats for derm, I notice half who match are AOA, which means half who matched were not AOA.

For step 1, I understand the objective cutoff for a good score and having a screening cutoff, but how important is AOA and clinical grades in light that only half who match dont have AOA? 3rd year grading is unfortuunately partially subjective too and, AOA, even more, since in takes into account of Extracurriculars plus class voting...

My ultimate question really is for those who matched without AOA or clinical grading, did other factors compensate (an even higher step like greater than 260, research, honors in derm clerkships, letters, med schcool reputation etc...)?

I guess the same goes for step 1 score, if the match mean is a 240ish, half are below so I was wondering what factors did they have to do well elsewhere to match?

Thanks.

Depends on the dermatology residency program in question. There are many applicants who go to top notch medical schools and don't match anywhere, and those who go to unranked medical schools (and didn't do a research year) who match (most likely at their home program).

A dermatology program will have a different set of idiosyncrasies (with faculty personalities to match) when it comes to what their looking for (i.e. Wright State vs. UTSW). Not to point out Wright State and UTSW specifically, just that they have very different mission goals.

 

[Transformers]

Pinecat, what do you mean I had none?

Thanks for the feedback guys. This is a silly question, since simply matching anywhere is incredible and difficult and this question has been asked before. I feel like theres sadly an underlying tier system that nobody will ever know but I would appreciate the recommendations here or via PM. The tier is something subjective I made up and is not based on the strength or easiness of a program in terms of matching. Personally, im in the boat of avg derm match candidates with the other factors going for me. My idea of tiers in derm are probably something of this sort:

1.) Programs that are primarily stats-AOA/260/honors or bust (an exaggeration, but you get my drift). I feel like I will never match into these programs since their cutoffs are too high.

2.) Programs that love their home candidates. I'm taking those small or state med schools that perhaps take 2/3 or at least 2 students from the school each year making it hard for outsiders to enter despite being competitive enough.

3.) All other programs- basically you meet the mean NRMP cutoffs for step and other stuff and maybe the extra push is a good interview/letters/connections. I feel like the majority are in this boat.

Personally, as a candidate, I'd be more interested in the tier 1 and tier 2 programs because I would less inclined to apply here/consider these a little lower as an applicant knowing where I stand. Just some food for thought, but all I wanted to do was hit the "quirks" that a small child pointed out.

Whenever I see the NRMP stats for derm, I notice half who match are AOA, which means half who matched were not AOA.

For step 1, I understand the objective cutoff for a good score and having a screening cutoff, but how important is AOA and clinical grades in light that only half who match get it? 3rd year grading is unfortuunately partially subjective too and, AOA, even more, since in takes into account of Extracurriculars plus class voting...

My ultimate question really is for those who matched without AOA or clinical grading, did other factors compensate (an even higher step like greater than 260, research, honors in derm clerkships, letters, med schcool reputation etc...)?

I guess the same goes for step 1 score, if the match mean is a 240ish, half are below so I was wondering what factors did they have to do well elsewhere to match?

Thanks.

Depends on the dermatology residency program in question. There are many applicants who go to top notch medical schools and don't match anywhere, and those who go to unranked medical schools (and didn't do a research year) who match (most likely at their home program).

A dermatology program will have a different set of idiosyncrasies (with faculty personalities to match) when it comes to what their looking for (i.e. Wright State vs. UTSW). Not to point out Wright State and UTSW specifically, just that they have very different mission goals.

 

[DermViser]

Pinecat, what do you mean I had none?

Thanks for the feedback guys. This is a silly question, since simply matching anywhere is incredible and difficult and this question has been asked before. I feel like theres sadly an underlying tier system that nobody will ever know but I would appreciate the recommendations here or via PM. The tier is something subjective I made up and is not based on the strength or easiness of a program in terms of matching. Personally, im in the boat of avg derm match candidates with the other factors going for me. My idea of tiers in derm are probably something of this sort:

1.) Programs that are primarily stats-AOA/260/honors or bust (an exaggeration, but you get my drift). I feel like I will never match into these programs since their cutoffs are too high.

2.) Programs that love their home candidates. I'm taking those small or state med schools that perhaps take 2/3 or at least 2 students from the school each year making it hard for outsiders to enter despite being competitive enough.

3.) All other programs- basically you meet the mean NRMP cutoffs for step and other stuff and maybe the extra push is a good interview/letters/connections. I feel like the majority are in this boat.

Personally, as a candidate, I'd be more interested in the tier 1 and tier 2 programs because I would less inclined to apply here/consider these a little lower as an applicant knowing where I stand. Just some food for thought, but all I wanted to do was hit the "quirks" that a small child pointed out.

Unless you're ridiculously entitled (and in derm there are many), you apply to every single dermatology program, period.

 

[Transformers]

Unless you're ridiculously entitled (and in derm there are many), you apply to every single dermatology program, period.

Yeah true, I would still apply to every one. My silly example was remember when we all applied to med school, partivularly the top 20s...all super hard to get into with low similar acceptance rates.

WUSTL (a tier 1) would be the top 20 med school notoriously taking in 39-40 mcats and certain state schools (a tier 2) would be notoriously for accepting their own candidates. Thats sort of the mentality I am thinking about when applying this to derm

 

[DermViser]

Yeah true, I would still apply to every one. My silly example was remember when we all applied to med school, partivularly the top 20s...all super hard to get into with low similar acceptance rates.

WUSTL (a tier 1) would be the top 20 med school notoriously taking in 39-40 mcats and certain state schools (a tier 2) would be notoriously for accepting their own candidates. Thats sort of the mentality I am thinking about when applying this to derm

That's bc state schools are obligated to take a certain percentage from their own state. By already geographically restricting your applicant pool, you already lose a huge segment of the high MCAT scorers that you want (since it's well-established in the medical literature the correlation between high MCAT scores and subsequent high USMLE Step 1 scores). Private schools like WUSTL don't have any state or PCP pipeline obligation. Their goal is to snatch applicants who will make the school look good as these are the ones likely to go for competitive specialties.

That being said - having a supportive and mentoring home dermatology program AND that favors their home applicants makes all the difference. For example, WashU's dermatology program, bc it's so high in prestige and quality, doesn't have to feel obligated to match any of it's own students to their program. It already knows it's milkshake brings all the boys to the yard from applicants coming from Harvard, Stanford, etc.

Compare that to your local public state school, where they are likely to take at least 1-2 applicants from it's own school (trend, not guaranteed).

 

[Transformers]

That's bc state schools are obligated to take a certain percentage from their own state. By already geographically restricting your applicant pool, you already lose a huge segment of the high MCAT scorers that you want (since it's well-established in the medical literature the correlation between high MCAT scores and subsequent high USMLE Step 1 scores). Private schools like WUSTL don't have any state or PCP pipeline obligation. Their goal is to snatch applicants who will make the school look good as these are the ones likely to go for competitive specialties.

That being said - having a supportive and mentoring home dermatology program AND that favors their home applicants makes all the difference. For example, WashU's dermatology program, bc it's so high in prestige and quality, doesn't have to feel obligated to match any of it's own students to their program. It already knows it's milkshake brings all the boys to the yard from applicants coming from Harvard, Stanford, etc.

Compare that to your local public state school, where they are likely to take at least 1-2 applicants from it's own school (trend, not guaranteed).

Lol u is a clown but I agree

 

[pinecat]

Pinecat, what do you mean I had none?

Thanks for the feedback guys. This is a silly question, since simply matching anywhere is incredible and difficult and this question has been asked before. I feel like theres sadly an underlying tier system that nobody will ever know but I would appreciate the recommendations here or via PM. The tier is something subjective I made up and is not based on the strength or easiness of a program in terms of matching. Personally, im in the boat of avg derm match candidates with the other factors going for me. My idea of tiers in derm are probably something of this sort:

1.) Programs that are primarily stats-AOA/260/honors or bust (an exaggeration, but you get my drift). I feel like I will never match into these programs since their cutoffs are too high.

2.) Programs that love their home candidates. I'm taking those small or state med schools that perhaps take 2/3 or at least 2 students from the school each year making it hard for outsiders to enter despite being competitive enough.

3.) All other programs- basically you meet the mean NRMP cutoffs for step and other stuff and maybe the extra push is a good interview/letters/connections. I feel like the majority are in this boat.

Personally, as a candidate, I'd be more interested in the tier 1 and tier 2 programs because I would less inclined to apply here/consider these a little lower as an applicant knowing where I stand. Just some food for thought, but all I wanted to do was hit the "quirks" that a small child pointed out.

Pinecat, what do you mean I had none?

Thanks for the feedback guys. This is a silly question, since simply matching anywhere is incredible and difficult and this question has been asked before. I feel like theres sadly an underlying tier system that nobody will ever know but I would appreciate the recommendations here or via PM. The tier is something subjective I made up and is not based on the strength or easiness of a program in terms of matching. Personally, im in the boat of avg derm match candidates with the other factors going for me. My idea of tiers in derm are probably something of this sort:

1.) Programs that are primarily stats-AOA/260/honors or bust (an exaggeration, but you get my drift). I feel like I will never match into these programs since their cutoffs are too high.

2.) Programs that love their home candidates. I'm taking those small or state med schools that perhaps take 2/3 or at least 2 students from the school each year making it hard for outsiders to enter despite being competitive enough.

3.) All other programs- basically you meet the mean NRMP cutoffs for step and other stuff and maybe the extra push is a good interview/letters/connections. I feel like the majority are in this boat.

Personally, as a candidate, I'd be more interested in the tier 1 and tier 2 programs because I would less inclined to apply here/consider these a little lower as an applicant knowing where I stand. Just some food for thought, but all I wanted to do was hit the "quirks" that a small child pointed out.

Just what I said...I had absolutely no connections. As far as board scores go, I was in the median range; no monster scores for me but enough to keep me in the ballpark. I did not have a derm program at my school and did two month long rotations. I learned a lot and engaged enough to receive great letters of recommendation. I have been in the top 10% of my class and was selected for AOA in September. That said, there was a certain amount of leadership and a lot of community service. I applied to every derm program in the country and received 11 interviews, attending 10. I worked really hard and am so grateful to have matched into this amazing specialty.

I guess what I'm saying is there are opportunities for those willing to work hard. Maybe I got a little lucky, but I would like to think that I was a complete package and I was able to convey that to the programs I interviewed with.

Unless you're ridiculously entitled (and in derm there are many), you apply to every single dermatology program, period.[/

 

[DermViser]

Just what I said...I had absolutely no connections. As far as board scores go, I was in the median range; no monster scores for me but enough to keep me in the ballpark. I did not have a derm program at my school and did two month long rotations. I learned a lot and engaged enough to receive great letters of recommendation. I have been in the top 10% of my class and was selected for AOA in September. That said, there was a certain amount of leadership and a lot of community service. I applied to every derm program in the country and received 11 interviews, attending 10. I worked really hard and am so grateful to have matched into this amazing specialty.

I guess what I'm saying is there are opportunities for those willing to work hard. Maybe I got a little lucky, but I would like to think that I was a complete package and I was able to convey that to the programs I interviewed with.

I think you're defining connections a little bit differently, than what is traditionally considered connections.

 

[pinecat]

I defer to you DermVisor.
What exactly is the traditional definition of "connections"?

 

[DermViser]

I defer to you DermVisor.
What exactly is the traditional definition of "connections"?

LOL! At least in residency terms, when someone says they have a "connection" it means they have an "in" (i.e. married/engaged/significant other/hookup with a resident/faculty member, relative of a faculty member, etc.). What you did was more networking. Which you'll find out on Friday, whether you ended up matching where you rotated.

 

[pinecat]

LOL! At least in residency terms, when someone says they have a "connection" it means they have an "in" (i.e. married/engaged/significant other/hookup with a resident/faculty member, relative or a faculty member, etc.). What you did was more networking. Which you'll find out on Friday, whether you ended up matching where you rotated.

Your definition is the same as mine .

 

[DermViser]

Your definition is the same as mine .

To be fair though, by networking, you're "connecting" with someone, but that's after you've officially rotated and put in the work, not beforehand. Not to mention being AOA definitely netted you more interviews.

You also have to be smart and savvy in WHERE you choose to do audition rotations. That's the key. For example, rotating for 1 month at UPenn for Dermatology as an applicant from a public state school is probably not a good use of one's time (esp. if you're hoping for an interview at UPenn).

 

[pinecat]

I agree. Now I understand what you mean by traditional connections. I will be the 1st MD in my family and all I kept hearing was, "it's who you know" from other classmates who had "better connected" family. So, maybe I was a little defensive when I heard the "connections, connections, connections" phrase. I know better now.
Thank you for clarifying it for me

 

[DermViser]

I agree. Now I understand what you mean by traditional connections. I will be the 1st MD in my family and all I kept hearing was, "it's who you know" from other classmates who had "better connected" family. So, maybe I was a little defensive when I heard the "connections, connections, connections" phrase. I know better now.
Thank you for clarifying it for me

So refreshing to see this. Tend to see a lot less of that in this specialty (IMHO) vs. offspring of physician/offspring of dermatologist and the occasional offspring of derm faculty member.

 

[pinecat]

Thanks DermVisor. I was really relieved to know that most of my interviews were conducted by really down to earth faculty and residents. Coming from a single parent family I was a bit intimidated at first by credentials and lineage. Not anymore, thanks to truly kind people and having faith in the way I was raised. I am living proof that it can be done...

 

[DermViser]

Thanks DermVisor. I was really relieved to know that most of my interviews were conducted by really down to earth faculty and residents. Coming from a single parent family I was a bit intimidated at first by credentials and lineage. Not anymore, thanks to truly kind people and having faith in the way I was raised. I am living proof that it can be done...

Your triumph over adversity makes your match that much sweeter. So nice to see a real story like that every once in a while. (Ok, I suck at the appropriate use of emoticon thing)

 

[imer]

For example, WashU's dermatology program, bc it's so high in prestige and quality, doesn't have to feel obligated to match any of it's own students to their program. It already knows it's milkshake brings all the boys to the yard from applicants coming from Harvard, Stanford

And you know this from experience - or is this made up? You've never even attended washu have you? Such misinformed assumptions about a med school that you have no connection to doesn't serve the discuss.

 

[pinecat]

Your triumph over adversity makes your match that much sweeter. So nice to see a real story like that every once in a while. (Ok, I suck at the appropriate use of emoticon thing)

I am pretty sure you made my day....thank you for rooting for me...

 

[DermViser]

And you know this from experience - or is this made up? You've never even attended washu have you? Such misinformed assumptions about a med school that you have no connection to doesn't serve the discuss.

I am referring to the RESIDENCY PROGRAM. No one here (other than your insecurities) is talking about the MEDICAL SCHOOL. Transformers had mentioned the medical school as being in Tier 1. One does not have to attend the medical school in question, to comment on the quality of the residency program, when those 2 things are not necessarily synonymous.

It's well known at specialty society meetings, which are considered the "top" residency programs in specific specialties. This is not exclusive to Derm, by any means. WashU's dermatology program is indeed high in prestige in quality even though it's a Division (this is more likely due to tradition) under Internal Medicine, vs. a separate Department.

My point was that as a derm residency at a private, prestigious, top-tier institution it's not regionally restricted and it's not OBLIGATED in any way to take any of its own students. That doesn't mean it won't take any of it's students. I hope that's not too difficult for your to understand, unless you're being purposefully obtuse.

 

[imer]

I am referring to the RESIDENCY PROGRAM. No one here (other than your insecurities) is talking about the MEDICAL SCHOOL. Transformers had mentioned the medical school as being in Tier 1. One does not have to attend the medical school in question, to comment on the quality of the residency program, when those 2 things are not necessarily synonymous.

It's well known at specialty society meetings, which are considered the "top" residency programs in specific specialties. This is not exclusive to Derm, by any means. WashU's dermatology program is indeed high in prestige in quality even though it's a Division (this is more likely due to tradition) under Internal Medicine, vs. a separate Department.

My point was that as a derm residency at a private, prestigious, top-tier institution it's not regionally restricted and it's not OBLIGATED in any way to take any of its own students. That doesn't mean it won't take any of it's students. I hope that's not too difficult for your to understand, unless you're being purposefully obtuse.

I thought you were talking about a med school taking its own students into it residency? Washu in particular. It sounded like you knew exactly what the derm residency plan is there. Just wondering how you know because you've never been associated with them. Guess you really don't know. Can you follow that?

 

[DermViser]

I thought you were talking about a med school taking its own students into it residency? Washu in particular. It sounded like you knew exactly what the derm residency plan is there. Just wondering how you know because you've never been associated with them. Guess you really don't know. Can you follow that?

A medical school, particularly a private one, doesn't admit students into a particular residency. The medical school admissions staff have nothing to do with taking students into a particular residency at a private medical school. This doesn't apply to JUST WashU.

There's a difference between saying "doesn't have to feel obligated to match any of it's own students" vs. "doesn't have to match any of it's own students". Try to learn the difference - I realize it's subtle, and maybe nuanced, for you.

 

[imer]

A medical school, particularly a private one, doesn't admit students into a particular residency. The medical school admissions staff have nothing to do with taking students into a particular residency at a private medical school. This doesn't apply to JUST WashU.

There's a difference between saying "doesn't have to feel obligated to match any of it's own students" vs. "doesn't have to match any of it's own students". Try to learn the difference - I realize it's subtle, and maybe nuanced, for you.

Does it take you all those empty words to say that you have no knowledge of washu residency or its med school? You're a bit insecure when you get questioned aren't you?

 

[DermViser]

Does it take you all those empty words to say that you have no knowledge of washu residency or its med school? You're a bit insecure when you get questioned aren't you?

As I said before, if you don't seem to understand "doesn't have to feel obligated to match", then you obviously either don't understand the difference or are being purposefully obtuse. Especially from someone who says, "I thought you were talking about a med school taking its own students into it residency?", when I wasn't at all. It's pretty well known that medical schools don't admit students into residency. They admit you to the medical school.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and say you're being purposefully obtuse. That being said, I'm no longer indulge a troll. :troll:

 

[imer]

As I said before, if you don't seem to understand "doesn't have to feel obligated to match", then you obviously either don't understand the difference or are being purposefully obtuse. Especially from someone who says, "I thought you were talking about a med school taking its own students into it residency?", when I wasn't at all. It's pretty well known that medical schools don't admit students into residency. They admit you to the medical school.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and say you're being purposefully obtuse. That being said, I'm no longer indulge a troll. :troll:

Right. Getting back to the fact you don't know anything about washu - even though you've spent quite a bit of time on their school specific thread espousing that you do. Basically I think it's a joke when you obviously have very little background in much of what you state. You're not very convincing.

 

[DermViser]

Right. Getting back to the fact you don't know anything about washu - even though you've spent quite a bit of time on their school specific thread espousing that you do. Basically I think it's a joke when you obviously have very little background in much of what you state. You're not very convincing.

There's a reason why previous years match lists are so important for MS-4s going for derm, so you can see trends over time for which schools are matching where, which programs are more "inbred" when it comes to those who match, etc. This helps students GREATLY in their individual strategy of where to do electives, since you get a very short period of elective time before submitting. Derm is one of the specialties in which your institution can largely affect your ability to crack certain regions/programs when it comes to netting an interview. This is largely bc Derm is a seller's market - programs can afford to be very choosy, since they interview so few people for so very few spots.

As derm residents, many of us are very much involved in going through applications during match season. You get to find out from faculty what they consider important in the initial filtering and eventual ranking process, things that many applicants may not initially think of. So I'm not speaking out of my behind. I don't expect to convince someone like you (as a non-derm applicant) and I wouldn't expect you to accept what I say as gospel either.

On an unrelated note, I'm sorry that you're butthurt about the preclinical grading policy of your medical school, being one of the only schools in the Top 12 (besides UPenn) to NOT switch over to complete P/F grading in the first 2 years. Hence why you're on a unrelated topic on an unrelated thread. I think premeds should know about how "important" preclinical grades are in the whole scheme of things, esp. when they have many other options. I'm sorry you don't feel that way. The literature, however, is pretty clear about how "important" preclinical grades are to program directors, which is why so many schools have largely switched over . Since you feel your H grade (vs. HP) in Biochem and Histology is of utmost importance, I won't try to convince you otherwise.

 

[imer]

There's a reason why previous years match lists are so important for MS-4s going for derm, so you can see trends over time for which schools are matching where, which programs are more "inbred" when it comes to those who match, etc. This helps students GREATLY in their individual strategy of where to do electives, since you get a very short period of elective time before submitting. Derm is one of the specialties in which your institution can largely affect your ability to crack certain regions/programs when it comes to netting an interview. This is largely bc Derm is a seller's market - programs can afford to be very choosy, since they interview so few people for so very few spots.

As derm residents, many of us are very much involved in going through applications during match season. You get to find out from faculty what they consider important in the initial filtering and eventual ranking process, things that many applicants may not initially think of. So I'm not speaking out of my behind. I don't expect to convince someone like you (as a non-derm applicant) and I wouldn't expect you to accept what I say as gospel either.

On an unrelated note, I'm sorry that you're butthurt about the preclinical grading policy of your medical school, being one of the only schools in the Top 12 (besides UPenn) to NOT switch over to complete P/F grading in the first 2 years. Hence why you're on a unrelated topic on an unrelated thread. I think premeds should know about how "important" preclinical grades are in the whole scheme of things, esp. when they have many other options. I'm sorry you don't feel that way. The literature, however, is pretty clear about how "important" preclinical grades are to program directors, which is why so many schools have largely switched over . Since you feel your H grade (vs. HP) in Biochem and Histology is of utmost importance, I won't try to convince you otherwise.

Sadly you are not convincing. You're not able to speak from experience, although you try. So now you claim to divine match lists -I'll bet your conclusions are wrong more often than right. Plus I thought you weren't going to respond any more?

You have a hard life ahead of you with that condescending attitude.

 

[DermViser]

Sadly you are not convincing. You're not able to speak from experience, although you try. So now you claim to divine match lists -I'll bet your conclusions are wrong more often than right. Plus I thought you weren't going to respond any more?

Like I said, I'm not trying to convince you. Correct fallacies in your accusations, yes. There's no need for me to "divine" match lists bc the thread at the top of the Dermatology forum, titled, "Derm match cycles 1999 - current" has the match lists there. Any more questions?

 

[asmallchild]

Closing as we are veering radically off topic. Please feel free to continue via PM, respectfully of course