Ramification of selling insulin syringes?

[Chrish]

I am in the camp who believes that we should always sell insulin syringes to anyone; regardless if they using it legitimately or 'shooting' it since we want them to use clean needles..

However, I was talking to my colleague who is really anal about this. He says that since our state law specifically mentions that pharmacist has to make sure about the validity of the syringe transaction (or something to that effect), pharmacy board can come behind you if they find out.

Is this true? I mean I find this really stupid but it's not really worth getting into trouble for. Can board really come after you for selling syringes to everyone?

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[Heroic Combo]

I am in the camp who believes that we should always sell insulin syringes to anyone; regardless if they using it legitimately or 'shooting' it since we want them to use clean needles..

However, I was talking to my colleague who is really anal about this. He says that since our state law specifically mentions that pharmacist has to make sure about the validity of the syringe transaction (or something to that effect), pharmacy board can come behind you if they find out.

Is this true? I mean I find this really stupid but it's not really worth getting into trouble for. Can board really come after you for selling syringes to everyone?

I think it's a pile of BS. Everyone knows that these syringes will undoubtedly be used to shoot up heroin or meth. That's the whole point. Clean needles to reduce Hep C/HIV transmission, etc - in turn reducing the cost to states medicaid programs for paying for 30k/month antivirals.

 

[confettiflyer]

California law as of 2014:


“California law (AB1743) permits licensed pharmacies and physicians throughout the State to sell or furnish an unlimited number of syringes without a prescription to customers over the age of 18, and allows adults to purchase and possess syringes for personal use when acquired from an authorized source. The law specifies that pharmacists, physicians and syringe exchange programs are authorized sources of nonprescription syringes for disease prevention purposes.

AB1743 removes the prior limit of 30 that had been placed on nonprescription syringe provision by pharmacies and physicians and removes the 30 syringe limit that had been place on individual purchase and possession of nonprescription syringes.

AB1743 requires the authorized NPSS sources to "counsel consumers on safe disposal" of syringes.”

Source: Pharmacy Syringe Sales :: Public Health :: Contra Costa Health Services


Sent from my iPhone using SDN

 

[Sine Cura]

You promote moral hazard while trying to justify it on the basis of "public health" because you will pay more in the end

The pragmatic reason to deny sales is pure deterrence because you have a **** ton of crap to do and don't need junkies tying up pickup with their bull**** excuses and shooting up in the restrooms or your immunization "booth"

 

[wagrxm2000]

I've worked with many people over the years and it surprises me how many people hate or don't want to sell syringes.

There's not a single reason to say no. No one should want a person to use a dirty syringe.

We sell to anyone, no questions asked.

 

[owlegrad]

You promote moral hazard while trying to justify it on the basis of "public health" because you will pay more in the end

How so?

 

[ranger99rx]

I am in the camp who believes that we should always sell insulin syringes to anyone; regardless if they using it legitimately or 'shooting' it since we want them to use clean needles..

However, I was talking to my colleague who is really anal about this. He says that since our state law specifically mentions that pharmacist has to make sure about the validity of the syringe transaction (or something to that effect), pharmacy board can come behind you if they find out.

Is this true? I mean I find this really stupid but it's not really worth getting into trouble for. Can board really come after you for selling syringes to everyone?

I used to sale syringes to anyone who asked for them. Soon I had too many young people buying them and I was tired of hearing the same grandma story (getting insulin & syringes from mail order but they messed up so her syringes hadn’t arrived yet.) Once or twice you let them have it , then they tell their friends soon we had a whole bunch of druggies every week in line. Finally, I said no unless they fill insulin with us, or if I can verify with whichever pharmacy they get their insulin from then I would let them buy it. It took a few months for those druggies to get the message, now they don’t show up in my store anymore.

One time, my tech asked the guy what size needle and he told her “2 litter”, my tech told him we didn’t stock them that he may have better luck with medical supply store!

 

[wagrxm2000]

I used to sale syringes to anyone who asked for them. Soon I had too many young people buying them and I was tired of hearing the same grandma story (getting insulin & syringes from mail order but they messed up so her syringes hadn’t arrived yet.) Once or twice you let them have it , then they tell their friends soon we had a whole bunch of druggies every week in line. Finally, I said no unless they fill insulin with us, or if I can verify with whichever pharmacy they get their insulin from then I would let them buy it. It took a few months for those druggies to get the message, now they don’t show up in my store anymore.

One time, my tech asked the guy what size needle and he told her “2 litter”, my tech told him we didn’t stock them that he may have better luck with medical supply store!

I hope you live in an area that has a place that does sell them.

 

[MilknCheerios]

We all make stupid choices at some point in our lives. Those that make the stupid choice to use injectable drugs shouldn't have to pay for that mistake the rest of their lives if they contract hep b/c or HIV. Even if one store refuses to sell it, another one will eventually. It's not our job to stop illegal drugs. I think some good deterrents though is selling them by the box or raising the price of each pack.

 

[Chrish]

I guess you guys misunderstood the question. It’s always practical to sell druggies their syringes. Question is would you get into trouble with the board if the board inspector walks in and sees you selling the syringe without you verifying the source of their insulin (units injected, what type of insulin etc)?

In other words, do you follow common sense or the state law?

 

[Chrish]

“Pharmacies shall keep syringes for injections behind the dispensing counter in their prescription departments and in no other place. No person other than a licensed pharmacist or a pharmacy intern/extern, acting under the direct supervision of a licensed pharmacist, shall sell, distribute, exchange, or give, to any person a hypodermic syringe or needle designed or marketed primarily for human use. No hypodermic needle or syringe shall be sold by a pharmacist or pharmacy intern/extern, acting under the direct supervision of a licensed pharmacist, if such person has reasonable cause to believe that it will be used for an unlawful purpose.”

- BOP

 

[Sine Cura]

The BOP can go after you for literally anything as no one runs a 100% perfect pharmacy. What are they actually going to do about it?



If people support selling syringes they should support supervised injection sites but muh government intervention and liberty. No one should want addicts to go untreated.

 

[WVUPharm2007]

I love how people are posting their state law as if it is going to be the law everywhere.

I sell them to whoever. I ain't trying to have a dozen people get hepatitis.

 

[zelman]

“Pharmacies shall keep syringes for injections behind the dispensing counter in their prescription departments and in no other place. No person other than a licensed pharmacist or a pharmacy intern/extern, acting under the direct supervision of a licensed pharmacist, shall sell, distribute, exchange, or give, to any person a hypodermic syringe or needle designed or marketed primarily for human use. No hypodermic needle or syringe shall be sold by a pharmacist or pharmacy intern/extern, acting under the direct supervision of a licensed pharmacist, if such person has reasonable cause to believe that it will be used for an unlawful purpose.”

- BOP

It’s not “unlawful” to shoot heroin. It’s illegal to possess it. By getting it out of their pocket and into their bloodstream, you’re actually fighting crime.

 

[RxPreceptor]

I'm with others on reducing the tax payer burden on having to pay for super expensive drugs to treat blood borne infectious diseases (hepatitis)

 

[Sparda29]

I am in the camp who believes that we should always sell insulin syringes to anyone; regardless if they using it legitimately or 'shooting' it since we want them to use clean needles..

However, I was talking to my colleague who is really anal about this. He says that since our state law specifically mentions that pharmacist has to make sure about the validity of the syringe transaction (or something to that effect), pharmacy board can come behind you if they find out.

Is this true? I mean I find this really stupid but it's not really worth getting into trouble for. Can board really come after you for selling syringes to everyone?

Which ass backward state do you live in?

New York allows purchases of up to 10 syringes no questions asked.

 

[Momus]

I used to work in a store that sells about 4-5 boxes of insulin syringes a week. They are selling like hotcakes. I can tell the people who line up they want syringes before they speak.

 

[JustFillIt]

Let’s just boil this down... there are no ramifications for selling syringes in good faith and with clear judgement. I don’t care what state your in or what the law/rules are.

 

[Old Timer]

I love how people are posting their state law as if it is going to be the law everywhere.

I sell them to whoever. I ain't trying to have a dozen people get hepatitis.

If it is obvious Insulin will never see the inside of the syringe, I take them to the consultation booth and quietly tell them I will NOT tolerate used syringes in my parking lot, store ailses or restrooms, other than that stay safe

 

[Dred Pirate]

“Pharmacies shall keep syringes for injections behind the dispensing counter in their prescription departments and in no other place. No person other than a licensed pharmacist or a pharmacy intern/extern, acting under the direct supervision of a licensed pharmacist, shall sell, distribute, exchange, or give, to any person a hypodermic syringe or needle designed or marketed primarily for human use. No hypodermic needle or syringe shall be sold by a pharmacist or pharmacy intern/extern, acting under the direct supervision of a licensed pharmacist, if such person has reasonable cause to believe that it will be used for an unlawful purpose.”

- BOP

what state do you live in? that obviously is necessary to answer the questions. Unfortunatley based on what you quote, it appears you are not alllowed to sell for any reason, which is idiotic. I am guessing you live in the south like me?

 

[Chrish]

what state do you live in? that obviously is necessary to answer the questions. Unfortunatley based on what you quote, it appears you are not alllowed to sell for any reason, which is idiotic. I am guessing you live in the south like me?

Georgia. Pretty stupid as there is not a single good reason not to sell it.

 

[Lnsean]

I don't get it. Why do some of you guys make a big deal out of this? There's a pathological process to addiction. You're going to let one disease spiral into another when it literally costs you nothing to sell them clean syringes. People can be saved from addiction. Suboxone is a wonderful drug. I have seen it completely turn someone's life around. Why add the burden of hepatitis and HIV to the mixture?

 

[JustFillIt]

I don't get it. Why do some of you guys make a big deal out of this? There's a pathological process to addiction. You're going to let one disease spiral into another when it literally costs you nothing to sell them clean syringes. People can be saved from addiction. Suboxone is a wonderful drug. I have seen it completely turn someone's life around. Why add the burden of hepatitis and HIV to the mixture?

Not to mention the spread of hepatitis.

 

[Sine Cura]

I don't mind dispensing TDF/TAF and Biktarvy

 

[projektreverb]

I don't mind dispensing TDF/TAF and Biktarvy

Im sure someone will mind paying for it.

 

[johnpharm01]

I am in the camp who believes that we should always sell insulin syringes to anyone; regardless if they using it legitimately or 'shooting' it since we want them to use clean needles..

However, I was talking to my colleague who is really anal about this. He says that since our state law specifically mentions that pharmacist has to make sure about the validity of the syringe transaction (or something to that effect), pharmacy board can come behind you if they find out.

Is this true? I mean I find this really stupid but it's not really worth getting into trouble for. Can board really come after you for selling syringes to everyone?

Your personal belief is conflicting with the laws governing your practice so your question is really not can they but will they. Research your boards actions see if they have disciplined others for it. Or use common sense and ask the purchaser what they are going to use them for and only sell to those who claim medical use.

By the way looked into the scientific literature on whether providing clean syringes reduces disease transmission in if drug users. There wasn't much and it did not support disease transmission reduction.

 

[Dred Pirate]

Georgia. Pretty stupid as there is not a single good reason not to sell it.

guessed it.... gotta love the "conservative" south

 

[SELDANE]

The only real drawback from selling syringes indiscriminately, for lack of a better word, is the clientele it attracts. Once as an overnight pharmacist I've was forced to go into the bathroom and check on someone who apparently OD'd. Not to mention that it's a bit unsightly to walk into a stall and find used syringes lying on the floor. Other than that I don't see any real hang up.

 

[FlavyFlav]

I dispense syringes no questions asked. First reason is there is no policy against it in my area of Florida, and my company requires we do not make any rule stricter than that of the state we are in. This ties into my second reason. I cannot, with 100% accuracy, guarantee that I can identify every person buying needles for nefarious purposes. This means, if I deny someone a needle and they actually needed it, I can be sued by that person if my refusal caused them harm or death and my company will not back up my decision. Why would you take that risk, when harm reduction isn't necessarily hurting you?

To tie this in to your original question, which would you rather the Board question you on? Harming/killing a patient for denying a needle, or dispensing a needle to an addict in good faith when they lied about their intent?

 

[RxPreceptor]

The only real drawback from selling syringes indiscriminately, for lack of a better word, is the clientele it attracts. Once as an overnight pharmacist I've was forced to go into the bathroom and check on someone who apparently OD'd. Not to mention that it's a bit unsightly to walk into a stall and find used syringes lying on the floor. Other than that I don't see any real hang up.

Mostly heroin addicts/"insulin addicts" (LMFAO) would trash our parking lot....we only sell syringes if we have the expanded syringe program pamphlets (on proper disposal, help # also in pamphlet) in stock. No pamphlets left, no sale

 

[Sine Cura]

You can be sued for anything. Are you going to remember someone suing you for a recommendation that didn't work out for them?

Depending on state, pharmacy regulations may permit dispensing "emergency" supplies of controls (in CA it is a "may" not a "must"). Would you actually do it even if NOT doing so might bring questions from the BOP? No, I bet most of you would tell that person "needing" benzos or other controls to take a hike and go somewhere else

 

[zelman]

Your personal belief is conflicting with the laws governing your practice so your question is really not can they but will they. Research your boards actions see if they have disciplined others for it. Or use common sense and ask the purchaser what they are going to use them for and only sell to those who claim medical use.

By the way looked into the scientific literature on whether providing clean syringes reduces disease transmission in if drug users. There wasn't much and it did not support disease transmission reduction.

Access to clean syringes | Health Impact in 5 Years | Health System Transformation | AD for Policy | CDC

Regulatory, legislative, and other policies that support access to clean needles and syringes allow for the legal sale of needles without prescriptions, and include programs to distribute clean needles and safely dispose of used needles.

www.cdc.gov

 

[johnpharm01]

Access to clean syringes | Health Impact in 5 Years | Health System Transformation | AD for Policy | CDC

Regulatory, legislative, and other policies that support access to clean needles and syringes allow for the legal sale of needles without prescriptions, and include programs to distribute clean needles and safely dispose of used needles.

www.cdc.gov

Thanks for the information but it doesn't apply directly to ops situation they aren't doing an exchange. Don't get me wrong I too believe selling new syringes would help reduce disease transmission. But none of this really matters the law is the law. Obey or face consequences.

 

[Lnsean]

Thanks for the information but it doesn't apply directly to ops situation they aren't doing an exchange. Don't get me wrong I too believe selling new syringes would help reduce disease transmission. But none of this really matters the law is the law. Obey or face consequences.

It's both. The studies are in the references and they include pharmacy sales. I mean we're not really hear to dispute something the CDC concluded vs some random ignorant pharmacist on SDN.

 

[Chrish]

I don’t think needles being found in the parking lot or bathroom seems to be an issue in my neck of the woods. Or may be it happens but I don’t care enough to realize it.

To me it just seems like an excuse made up by some pharmacists who don’t want to sell the needles.

 

[RxPreceptor]

I don’t think needles being found in the parking lot or bathroom seems to be an issue in my neck of the woods. Or may be it happens but I don’t care enough to realize it.

To me it just seems like an excuse made up by some pharmacists who don’t want to sell the needles.

Mainly the issue comes up from store front management/not wanting to have people exposed to needle sticks from cleaning up this filth of society

 

[zelman]

I don’t think needles being found in the parking lot or bathroom seems to be an issue in my neck of the woods. Or may be it happens but I don’t care enough to realize it.

To me it just seems like an excuse made up by some pharmacists who don’t want to sell the needles.

It happens. I’ve seen both. The best strategy to discourage it that I’ve seen is selling syringes by the box only. People will spend $3 on a bag and toss 9 syringes, but spending $20+ to toss 99 syringes is a less frequent event.

 

[Chrish]

I always sell it by box. We never ever break those boxes..

 

[owlegrad]

I don’t think needles being found in the parking lot or bathroom seems to be an issue in my neck of the woods. Or may be it happens but I don’t care enough to realize it.

To me it just seems like an excuse made up by some pharmacists who don’t want to sell the needles.

I am also surprised they can tell just by looking at the needle that it came from a “junky” vs a ‘legitimate’ user. In my own family I know some insulin users with shockingly terrible used needle etiquette.

 

[Sine Cura]

- What insulin do you use?
- How many units do you use?

Mandating selling by the box is a weasel move.

 

[zelman]

- What insulin do you use?
- How many units do you use?

Mandating selling by the box is a weasel move.

Do you think their diabetes will be cured before their 100th dose of insulin?

 

[Sine Cura]

Do you think their diabetes will be cured before their 100th dose of insulin?

Because people never come to the pharmacy to get stuff that mail order is late delivering on

Lots of massive virtue signaling in this thread from people who obv hate pharmacy and have even exited the pharmacy field. inb4 "you hate pharmacy too" (yes)

 

[zelman]

Because people never come to the pharmacy to get stuff that mail order is late delivering on

Lots of massive virtue signaling in this thread from people who obv hate pharmacy and have even exited the pharmacy field. inb4 "you hate pharmacy too" (yes)

I don’t understand the complaint of ”virtue signaling.” Why do religious leaders get to do it for 3 hours every weekend, but I’m an ass for saying I both (1) don’t want my customers to come across 1 used and 9 unused syringes in the bathroom and (2) want to give IVDU’s clean needles?

 

[Sine Cura]

There is more than one poster in this thread.

I didn't even say I don't sell syringes but there is no mandate by any state board AFAIK to sell syringes sight unseen

 

[johnpharm01]

It's both. The studies are in the references and they include pharmacy sales. I mean we're not really hear to dispute something the CDC concluded vs some random ignorant pharmacist on SDN.

I guess we will agree to disagree on what the studies support, but ops question really was whether they would get in trouble with their bop. I have never been disciplined or fined as staff or manager can you say the same?

 

[Lnsean]

I guess we will agree to disagree on what the studies support, but ops question really was whether they would get in trouble with their bop. I have never been disciplined or fined as staff or manager can you say the same?

Huh? I am responding to your claim that there's no data/studies to support it while another poster provided you with a link directly to the CDC stating otherwise.

I wasn't debating OP's point with you. I already put in my thoughts on that.