Residency Question

[Giovanotto]

I've been recently accepted to a DO school here in the states and by the end of it I will be an international (give my international student status) AMG.

Is there a scenario or chance that in four years the situation will be so bad for international students (even though they came to school here) that we won't be able to match or find a residency program that is willing to sponsor me/us?

Please advice. I'm trying to gain perspective from those further down the line than me. It would be an absolute nightmare to graduate with that debt and not be able to secure a residency.

Where can I find a list of US residency programs that sponsor?

It's frightening to see some DO schools post this:
International students need to be aware that obtaining a residency program in the United States has been difficult for some graduates. Many hospitals do not wish to accept the legal responsibility of sponsoring physicians for their graduate medical education programs.

It is strongly recommended that you begin researching graduate medical education programs as early as possible to ensure that your hospitals of interest will sponsor you for their graduate medical education programs. You should begin the contact early and continue to dialogue with them throughout your medical education.

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[witzelsucht]

nah you'll be fine

 

[Instatewaiter]

I've been recently accepted to a DO school here in the states and by the end of it I will be an international (give my international student status) AMG.

Is there a scenario or chance that in four years the situation will be so bad for international students (even though they came to school here) that we won't be able to match or find a residency program that is willing to sponsor me/us?

Please advice. I'm trying to gain perspective from those further down the line than me. It would be an absolute nightmare to graduate with that debt and not be able to secure a residency.

Where can I find a list of US residency programs that sponsor?

It's frightening to see some DO schools post this:
International students need to be aware that obtaining a residency program in the United States has been difficult for some graduates. Many hospitals do not wish to accept the legal responsibility of sponsoring physicians for their graduate medical education programs.

It is strongly recommended that you begin researching graduate medical education programs as early as possible to ensure that your hospitals of interest will sponsor you for their graduate medical education programs. You should begin the contact early and continue to dialogue with them throughout your medical education.

First where are your from and what kind of visa are you on? This will be important for how limited you are.

Second, it is harder to get a residency as an international graduate becuase the hospital has to be willing to sponsor your visa- which if a place is able to get plenty of applicants that are from the US, they won;t be willing to take people who need visa sponsorship.

Third, you are limited by going to a DO school. While DO entrance into some fields has improved in the past few years, there are more and more US graduates which puts extra pressure on all medical school grads vying for positions. This is going to be felt most by IMGs followed by DOs followd by MD students.

So it is risky but that risk may be mitigated by the field you pick. IM, FM, Peds- you will probably find a spot.

I would clarify with the school their success and failure rate at getting a residency for people with the same visa as you have. Can you get a green card during medical school?

 

[Giovanotto]

First where are your from and what kind of visa are you on? This will be important for how limited you are.

Second, it is harder to get a residency as an international graduate becuase the hospital has to be willing to sponsor your visa- which if a place is able to get plenty of applicants that are from the US, they won;t be willing to take people who need visa sponsorship.

Third, you are limited by going to a DO school. While DO entrance into some fields has improved in the past few years, there are more and more US graduates which puts extra pressure on all medical school grads vying for positions. This is going to be felt most by IMGs followed by DOs followd by MD students.

So it is risky but that risk may be mitigated by the field you pick. IM, FM, Peds- you will probably find a spot.

I would clarify with the school their success and failure rate at getting a residency for people with the same visa as you have. Can you get a green card during medical school?

No offense, but many of the questions you are asking are redundant. What I am getting from your post though, is that I will be lumped together with IMGs. And if so, that is incredibly frustrating. I will contact my school to clarify, thank you.

 

[22031 Alum]

No offense, but many of the questions you are asking are redundant.

In response to a long post with only 3 questions. Where are you from, what visa are you on and can you get a green card. But sure, "many" of those are redundant. This isn't the first time you've gotten prickly in response to someone who is just trying to help you by asking for clarification. As someone who is already fighting an uphill battle your attitude is likely to only make things worse.

 

[Giovanotto]

In response to a long post with only 3 questions. Where are you from, what visa are you on and can you get a green card. But sure, "many" of those are redundant. This isn't the first time you've gotten prickly in response to someone who is just trying to help you by asking for clarification. As someone who is already fighting an uphill battle your attitude is likely to only make things worse.

No, not at all, I think its a matter of perspective. I can tell from the questions asked that there is a lack of (understandably so) understanding of the situation. For example, all international students are here on a F1 visa, you won't find any in a different situation 99% of the time. It's a very particular problem, and I was mostly looking for advice from those that have gone through it (which I have already, but in the non-medical job market), because only then do I believe that I can get what I am looking for. I always appreciate any advice anyway, and I don't need you coming in here to scorn me.

 

[Instatewaiter]

No offense, but many of the questions you are asking are redundant. What I am getting from your post though, is that I will be lumped together with IMGs. And if so, that is incredibly frustrating. I will contact my school to clarify, thank you.

No, not at all, I think its a matter of perspective. I can tell from the questions asked that there is a lack of (understandably so) understanding of the situation. For example, all international students are here on a F1 visa, you won't find any in a different situation 99% of the time. It's a very particular problem, and I was mostly looking for advice from those that have gone through it (which I have already, but in the non-medical job market), because only then do I believe that I can get what I am looking for. I always appreciate any advice anyway, and I don't need you coming in here to scorn me.

Look kid, I am just trying to help. There is no reason to get snarky if you don't like the reality. It appears from your response you came here to have people stroke your fears and make them disappear. In reality, they are probably worse than you anticipate.

Realize a few things. I am a board certified physician and have now gone through not only applications for medical school but 3 sets of matches for residency, fellowship and superfellowship. I have experience with things you are asking about. I also have experience with friends who were not US citizens applying for fellowship and they were coming from one of the very large, very well known (most would argue the top) program in the country- not some DO school. These people were still limited by their visa issues. Some were forced to delay their training.

And no, you won't be lumped in together with IMGs. You will be lumped in with DOs but will also have visa issues, making your plight worse than most DOs. It will be program dependent on how much that limits you but don't have any misgivings that it will be easy.

Not everyone studying is on an F1 visa- hence the question. I am assuming you are then going to look for a H1B non-cap program... making it even more difficult.

So... the questions still stand:
Where are you from?
Can you get a green card?

 

[22031 Alum]

No, not at all, I think its a matter of perspective. I can tell from the questions asked that there is a lack of (understandably so) understanding of the situation. For example, all international students are here on a F1 visa, you won't find any in a different situation 99% of the time. It's a very particular problem, and I was mostly looking for advice from those that have gone through it (which I have already, but in the non-medical job market), because only then do I believe that I can get what I am looking for. I always appreciate any advice anyway, and I don't need you coming in here to scorn me.

Maybe I'm harsh, but I certainly don't feel scorn for you. I do think attitude here tends to reflect real life and I hate to see someone make a hard situation harder for no good reason. I'll give you that the language may be an issue (for example, none of your reasons for dismissing those questions is described by the word "redundant"). But you'd be surprised how helpful it can be to foster good will and how harmful it can be to come across the way you do.

I want you to succeed and while this may not be the highly specific advice you want, I think it's worthwhile.

 

[Giovanotto]

@Instatewaiter; Is there any way for me to get in contact with some of your friends that have gone through it?

I hope to have a strong enough USMLE score to apply to ACGME residencies as a DO student needing H1B sponsoring. However, I could become a PGY-1 without any issues (OPT), but half-way through that year I'd need to have an attending or "boss" willing to sponsor me for the remaining 2-4 years of the program. I have been sponsored before for work, and its not an awful process, but its not fun, since its time consuming and it does involve around 5,000 USD.

Is it possible to believe that I can rotate through a hospital/specialty I really like a few times during years 3/4 and build a rapport with them and hopefully they like me enough to match me and subsequently sponsor? Is this far removed from reality? I don't see how Medicine is that different from any other job in that respect. Of course, there is a lot more at risk, hence my uneasiness. I want to know if its enough of a concern for me to rethink my decision to pursue medicine for now.

I've been screwed from the H1B cap before, but I should be going through the non-cap as a physician.

 

[Instatewaiter]

@Instatewaiter; Is there any way for me to get in contact with some of your friends that have gone through it?

I hope to have a strong enough USMLE score to apply to ACGME residencies as a DO student needing H1B sponsoring. However, I could become a PGY-1 without any issues (OPT), but half-way through that year I'd need to have an attending or "boss" willing to sponsor me for the remaining 2-4 years of the program. I have been sponsored before for work, and its not an awful process, but its not fun, since its time consuming and it does involve around 5,000 USD.

Is it possible to believe that I can rotate through a hospital/specialty I really like a few times during years 3/4 and build a rapport with them and hopefully they like me enough to match me and subsequently sponsor? Is this far removed from reality? I don't see how Medicine is that different from any other job in that respect. Of course, there is a lot more at risk, hence my uneasiness. I want to know if its enough of a concern for me to rethink my decision to pursue medicine for now.

I've been screwed from the H1B cap before, but I should be going through the non-cap as a physician.

I don't know how excited they will be to talk to someone random on the internet but I'll ask.

Many (?most) DO students do rotate at the hospitals to which they will apply. It is probably your best shot. Before picking hospitals at which to rotate, ask to see if they would be willing to sponsor someone like you. This is even more important for your electives during 3rd and 4th year. Don't waste your time with places that say no.

Medicine is different than other jobs because getting a spot inolves a match. There are also literally thousands of people on H1 visas who don't get offered a spot. Plus since it is a match, you won't get 10 job offers, you get 1 and told where to go.

Your uneasiness is warranted. I can't answer if it is enough to rethink your decision. It would be important to figure out how foreign people from Western have fared in the match. If no one has ever matched then perhaps you do rethink the decision. Otherwise, go forward, work hard and make smart decisions during your third and fourth year and don't choose something overly competitive as a residency choice and apply very, very broadly.

 

[Psai]

No offense, but many of the questions you are asking are redundant. What I am getting from your post though, is that I will be lumped together with IMGs. And if so, that is incredibly frustrating. I will contact my school to clarify, thank you.

Haha are you seriously trying to critique a guy who's helping you out?

 

[Giovanotto]

Merging both threads (trying to gather as much accurate and good data about this process for both my future self and others):
From @PistolPete :

None of us have crystal balls, sorry. However, since OP has gotten accepted into a DO school, he/she will be a US medical graduate (despite not having US citizenship or permanent residency). So OP, you will be a US medical graduate, not an IMG, not an FMG.

Being a US medical graduate will make your path to obtaining residency much, much better than carribean grads or other true IMG's (don't mean to offend anyone, it's just what I see/hear from talking to PD's).

Now, the real problem is that the number of US residency spots has bene largely stagnant for many years. More and more med students are graduating every year for roughly the same number of spots.

So, if you truly want to do medicine, do it. Don't fear it. Know that you need to work hard, and that if you want a competitive specialty, have a back up. But at the end of the day, if I were a betting man, I'd bet that as a non-US citizen (and non-US permanent resident) you will still be able to find a residency position and ultimately get a job.

Good luck!

Also know that many websites of residency programs will say "only J1 visa" but this is because they are largely referring to IMGs. Most IMG's will only be able to attain the J1 visa.

You have to e-mail every GME department to find out if they will sponsor an H1b for an international student who will be graduating from a US medical school. Some will, some won't. For various reasons, I advocate for the H1b, especially if you have any intention of staying in the US after completing US residency.

 

[Giovanotto]

@Winged Scapula: Can I please have this thread moved to General Residency Issues? believe it would be better suited there, thank you.

 

[Giovanotto]

Merging both threads (trying to gather as much accurate and good data about this process for both my future self and others):
From @PistolPete :

You have to e-mail every GME department to find out if they will sponsor an H1b for an international student who will be graduating from a US medical school. Some will, some won't. For various reasons, I advocate for the H1b, especially if you have any intention of staying in the US after completing US residency.

How do I "find" a GME department. I have yet to start medical school, but would like to start looking into this. Also, @PistolPete, last time I applied for H1B I was rejected. Are physicians applying for H1B exempt from the cap? Thank you.

 

[PistolPete]

Just type in the medical center you are looking at and add GME to it in google. You shouldn't be rejected for an H1b since all academic medical centers are cap-exempt, unless you have other legal/immigration issues.

 

[Giovanotto]

Woops

 

[Giovanotto]

Just type in the medical center you are looking at and add GME to it in google. You shouldn't be rejected for an H1b since all academic medical centers are cap-exempt, unless you have other legal/immigration issues.

Are community hospitals with GME not cap-exempt?

 

[Psai]

You're not an AMG. That's for US MDs only. You're a DO.

 

[PistolPete]

Are community hospitals with GME not cap-exempt?

If there's a GME department, that means there's a residency, which means it's academic, which means it will be cap exempt. You can ask the GME department to be sure, but this should not be an issue.

If you tried to get an H1b from a community hospital where there is no residency program, then they may not be cap-exempt.

 

[PistolPete]

You're not an AMG. That's for US MDs only. You're a DO.

Not sure what you're referring to exactly, but as a DO the OP is still an American Medical Graduate, which is important since many GME programs will only sponsor the H1b visa for American Medical Graduates, which includes both DO's and MD's.

If you mean to say for match report purposes, then yes, he would not be considered a "US senior" but he would be in the DO category.

 

[Giovanotto]

If there's a GME department, that means there's a residency, which means it's academic, which means it will be cap exempt. You can ask the GME department to be sure, but this should not be an issue.

If you tried to get an H1b from a community hospital where there is no residency program, then they may not be cap-exempt.

Thank you for clearing that up for me, appreciate it.