Residency?

[RangerBob]

Again dude, you cannot compare statistics that way. It's as if I say oh Upenn is not as competitive as community program bc Upenn had a few unfilled spots. Well community program prematched all its positions so that's why it filled. So no, PMR is one of the least competitive specialties that are out there. Will it get more competitive in the future? Likely.

But the fact that less than 50% of AMGs match into it says otherwise. You can't compare specialties that way, bc you are looking at it wrong. % of AMGs matching to a specialty is best indicator of competitiveness of a specialty.

The statistics I cited showed the percentage of medical students who got their first choice specialty. It has nothing to do with comparing the competitiveness between applicants--it's just comparing one particular numeric. I would personally consider the most important statistic to know is how many people that want a specific specialty will match into it. Because that's what I care about--will I match in the specialty I want to match into. 10% of AMGs not matching into PM&R is rather high in my opinion, especially considering how low our USMLE scores are.

I'm not saying PM&R is a competitive specialty--just more competitive than our board scores suggest.

I don't agree that %AMG is the primary determinant of competitiveness--especially in PM&R which is so DO heavy.

I understand that you disagree with me. You asked for statistics earlier, so I provided them. You can read them for exactly what they are--the odds of an applicant getting their dream residency.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[RangerBob]

Dude, this is EASILY explained by the fact the median Step scores are near the bottom, on top of the fact there are only a limited number of seats.

I'm not sure I follow you here. Yes, the median USMLE scores are low for PM&R (2nd lowest of any specialty if I'm correct). But I'm not sure I understand how that relates to the percentage of AMGs who match into PM&R/

 

[IamnotFreud]

The statistics I cited showed the percentage of medical students who got their first choice specialty. It has nothing to do with comparing the competitiveness between applicants--it's just comparing one particular numeric. I would personally consider the most important statistic to know is how many people that want a specific specialty will match into it. Because that's what I care about--will I match in the specialty I want to match into. 10% of AMGs not matching into PM&R is rather high in my opinion, especially considering how low our USMLE scores are.

I'm not saying PM&R is a competitive specialty--just more competitive than our board scores suggest.

I don't agree that %AMG is the primary determinant of competitiveness--especially in PM&R which is so DO heavy.

I understand that you disagree with me. You asked for statistics earlier, so I provided them. You can read them for exactly what they are--the odds of an applicant getting their dream residency.

Problem is that you are not interpreting statistics well.

 

[IamnotFreud]

I'm not sure I follow you here. Yes, the median USMLE scores are low for PM&R (2nd lowest of any specialty if I'm correct). But I'm not sure I understand how that relates to the percentage of AMGs who match into PM&R/

The point is, most AMGs match.

 

[lossnwilderness]

This is truly ridiculous. Anyone bashing other people like this behind the protection of a message board who wouldn't have the balls to do it in person is jealous and many other things I cannot express on this board. For the person switching from rads...you will be fine, don't stress it. Trust, it has been done many times before you and will continue. And people, please stop "bragging" about your interviews...no one gives a ****.

 

[Iampmr]

a few thoughts...

-The general competitiveness level of PM&R does pale in comparison to derm/rads/plastics/etc any way you slice it
-The number of total spots available likely has a role in the limited number of open spots
-There seems to be a significant dichotomy between PM&R programs in terms of quality and breadth of training... and thus the stark differences in competitiveness between these programs
-I'm a DO and would freely admit that a field with a relative over-representation of DO's leads to the feeling of being a less competitive field overall.... but DO's in PM&R is sort of a different beast....as the MSK, functional anatomy/biomechanics and OMT background lends to a heightened interest in and smooth segway to PM&R

-When people talk about the increasing competitiveness over the last few years....as someone who interviewed applicants and was involved in the overall selection process.... there has been an increasingly stronger pool of applicants to pick from in terms of more than just board scores and med school pedigree. I'm talking about a genuine demonstrated interest in the field with multiple rotations, a true understanding of what Physiatry is all about, research, leadership positions and just flat out being good people who "fit" the field. You can certainly call those characteristics soft.... but those latter attributes trump scores and pedigree in most cases (as long as no glaring academic flaws)

That there trumps your entire argument of AMG>IMG. I am a more competitive applicant than you, IamnotFREUD because of what is stated above. I show more compassion/interest to this field than you ever did or will. And no, I couldn't match into radiology, because I never even considered spending most of my working life in a cave. I like talking to patients and watching them persevere through their hardships. I know I will make a great physiatrist and it feels nice to know that a PD at a very good program thinks so as well. So HATE all you want on me and my fellow IMGs, but at least many of us are on the other side of the fence and you are still looking through the cracks, so enjoy the view buddy. This thread is dead!

 

[RangerBob]

Problem, again, is that you are not interpreting statistics well. last match for example, 197 AMGs applied, 178 got in. You have a very small N or sample size, which makes the % not really representative. You tell me this - if you are an avg or slightly below avg medical student, and there is nothing wrong being average, which specialty do you think you will get into - PMR, anesthesia, rad onc, derm, or ortho?

Seriously. I think it's awsome that you are proud of PMR and an advocate, but suggesting that you think you have a higher chance of matching derm or even anesthesia vs. PMR is just plain nuts. The other specialties you posted up there, such as EM, gas, rads, have thousands of positions, so you can't really compare things that way.

I apologize--I certainly wasn't trying to suggest you're less likely to match into PM&R than most of those other specialties. True, I admit the average applicant will have an easier time matching into PM&R than most specialties (I'd argue FM and IM are easier, partly due to the number of positions).

What I was trying to refer to is if you look at each specialty and it's applicants in their own bubbles, the people who want many of those other specialties are more likely to get it than those who want PM&R. Not that the guys who want PM&R are more competitive applicants because of that. In my eyes, you could say in a sense, PM&R is more competitive than those other specialties. But I wouldn't say that PM&R is globally more competitive than those (or most) specialties.

 

[IamnotFreud]

This is truly ridiculous. Anyone bashing other people like this behind the protection of a message board who wouldn't have the balls to do it in person is jealous and many other things I cannot express on this board. For the person switching from rads...you will be fine, don't stress it. Trust, it has been done many times before you and will continue. And people, please stop "bragging" about your interviews...no one gives a ****.

Thanks dude. I appreciate the kind words. I am doing research at a major program so I think I may be offered a spot for next year, but was hoping not to use up a year but oh well. It is what it is I guess.

 

[IamnotFreud]

That there trumps your entire argument of AMG>IMG. I am a more competitive applicant than you, IamnotFREUD because of what is stated above. I show more compassion/interest to this field than you ever did or will. And no, I couldn't match into radiology, because I never even considered spending most of my working life in a cave. I like talking to patients and watching them persevere through their hardships. I know I will make a great physiatrist and it feels nice to know that a PD at a very good program thinks so as well. So HATE all you want on me and my fellow IMGs, but at least many of us are on the other side of the fence and you are still looking through the cracks, so enjoy the view buddy. This thread is dead!

You are absolutely out of control. Your attacks have been reported. Someone with this level of unprofessional behavior should not be practicing in the US.

 

[RangerBob]

Thanks dude. I appreciate the kind words. I am doing research at a major program so I think I may be offered a spot for next year, but was hoping not to use up a year but oh well. It is what it is I guess.

I'm a little confused--did you apply to radiology and PM&R in the match? Or just radiology, and then you now want to find an outside the match position? Or you are a prelim who matched into radiology and now want to switch?

 

[RangerBob]

This is why you guys will not be able to match for much longer, because you cannot even hold a conversation in a professional manner. It is beyond asinine and just plain dumb for you to even know what I know about PMR. You applied PMR because you could never get into anything, much less rads. AMGs will always be preferred and more competitive than IMGs, period. Your statement is just plain stupid. Through the cracks? Are you really this naive or something? Wow, just wow.

I don't know--I'd question whether someone with that attitude really matched into PM&R. With so few posts it's hard to know if he/she's trolling or being genuine, but I've yet to meet a single PM&R applicant who had that kind of gunner mentality.

However, I only interviewed at one of the "top 5" programs, but from what I heard the other four aren't filled with jerks.

Edit: I'm referring to iampmr here, not you.

 

[IamnotFreud]

.

 

[youngmd]

People in this thread are hilarious. Why are people getting so upset? I think a BIG problem with our field is an inferiority complex that seems to stem in part from the fact that our field is NOT competitive. I personally feel that has to do more with a lack of exposure to PM&R and the fact the field is underrepresented current MD curricula more than anything else. It is NOTHING to be ashamed of. I entered an allopathic med school with ambitions of a future in PM&R. I scored well above avg. on Step 1 to give myself every possible advantage in the match. However, PM&R is an easy match for an avg. applicant. People have been stating that we are becoming more competitive for YEARS. The stats don't really support this at all.

And for everyone who keeps claiming that number of unfilled spots equates somehow to competitiveness.... this could not be further from the truth. The reality is that this actually speaks to the opposite. Despite having only about half as many AMG's applying compared to spots available, essentially all spots get filled. This simply demonstrates that our programs rank deeper and we are not as selective. Programs do not want unfilled spots and take anybody.

As I stated, I went to med school specifically for PM&R. I have absolutely no question that we are the hidden gem of all specialties. It just really annoys when people have an inferiority complex about our field. If more students actually knew what we do, many more would be interested. Unfortunately, many students who do get some exposure during med school have bad experiences (I have talked to many who told me about the staff they worked with). Again, I think this is partly due to our field not being selective enough and accepting everybody who walks in the door. I would love to see MANY more spots go unfilled rather than filled with just another warm body.

 

[IamnotFreud]

I don't know--I'd question whether someone with that attitude really matched into PM&R. With so few posts it's hard to know if he/she's trolling or being genuine, but I've yet to meet a single PM&R applicant who had that kind of gunner mentality.

However, I only interviewed at one of the "top 5" programs, but from what I heard the other four aren't filled with jerks.

He/she is acting absolutely insane. I've noticed this level of hot headedness in some IMGs when things that they don't like are said. I have reported him/her. that behavior is not acceptable. Most people in PMR are kind and nice, which is essential given the patient type and the caring and empathic attitude needed for the field.

 

[IamnotFreud]

I don't know--I'd question whether someone with that attitude really matched into PM&R. With so few posts it's hard to know if he/she's trolling or being genuine, but I've yet to meet a single PM&R applicant who had that kind of gunner mentality.

However, I only interviewed at one of the "top 5" programs, but from what I heard the other four aren't filled with jerks.

Edit: I'm referring to iampmr here, not you.

Yes I got that.

 

[IamnotFreud]

People in this thread are hilarious. Why are people getting so upset? I think a BIG problem with our field is an inferiority complex that seems to stem in part from the fact that our field is NOT competitive. I personally feel that has to do more with a lack of exposure to PM&R and the fact the field is underrepresented current MD curricula more than anything else. It is NOTHING to be ashamed of. I entered an allopathic med school with ambitions of a future in PM&R. I scored well above avg. on Step 1 to give myself every possible advantage in the match. However, PM&R is an easy match for an avg. applicant. People have been stating that we are becoming more competitive for YEARS. The stats don't really support this at all.

And for everyone who keeps claiming that number of unfilled spots equates somehow to competitiveness.... this could not be further from the truth. The reality is that this actually speaks to the opposite. Despite having only about half as many AMG's applying compared to spots available, essentially all spots get filled. This simply demonstrates that our programs rank deeper and we are not as selective. Programs do not want unfilled spots and take anybody.

As I stated, I went to med school specifically for PM&R. I have absolutely no question that we are the hidden gem of all specialties. It just really annoys when people have an inferiority complex about our field. If more students actually knew what we do, many more would be interested. Unfortunately, many students who do get some exposure during med school have bad experiences (I have talked to many who told me about the staff they worked with). Again, I think this is partly due to our field not being selective enough and accepting everybody who walks in the door. I would love to see MANY more spots go unfilled rather than filled with just another warm body.

I could not agree with you more that it is absolutely a hidden gem. I have even emailed my dean and asked them to include a 2 week rotation as part of the curriculum because I agree that a lot more people would absolutely apply if they knew about it. And yes, programs should be much more selective.

 

[RangerBob]

I applied and matched rads. Some very serious things happened on a personal level and I discovered PMR and I think given the very significant personal experiences, I think PMR would be an awsome field to go into. As a result, I want to switch into PMR. Among other things Im doing research in PMR.

Ok--I see.

Here's my honest take: You were competitive enough for rads, so your scores should be even more competitive for PM&R. It sounds like your heart is really set on PM&R--if you interview well and are likable then I'd say you're almost guaranteed a spot at a decent program. Research is a bonus to any program, as it's rare in PM&R.

Honestly, I think you'd get into a much better program if you do wait things out and participate in the match. I'd keep my eye open as people do leave programs (someone left Mayo a while back, as well as VCU, and other solid programs).

However, I wouldn't want to wait either. But given the small number of spots, there may or may not be an opening in a quality program. Hopefully there is and you don't have to delay PM&R residency another year, but unfortunately that's out of our control.

 

[Taus]

Just remember to keep it professional and civil. Differences in opinion with a spirited discussion is no problem, educational and well.... entertaining... but personal attacks are simply not tolerated on this forum.

 

[IamnotFreud]

Ok--I see.

Here's my honest take: You were competitive enough for rads, so your scores should be even more competitive for PM&R. It sounds like your heart is really set on PM&R--if you interview well and are likable then I'd say you're almost guaranteed a spot at a decent program. Research is a bonus to any program, as it's rare in PM&R.

Honestly, I think you'd get into a much better program if you do wait things out and participate in the match. I'd keep my eye open as people do leave programs (someone left Mayo a while back, as well as VCU, and other solid programs).

However, I wouldn't want to wait either. But given the small number of spots, there may or may not be an opening in a quality program. Hopefully there is and you don't have to delay PM&R residency another year, but unfortunately that's out of our control.

Yep, I realize that I would likely be able to get a better spot through the match than out of the match, but it's a hard thing to say do I wait it out or just grab something. Certain programs I'm not interested in, but I am open to a number of other programs. I am hoping to be able to land a spot for next year at the place I'm doing research at, since it's where I've lived and my family is, so we shall see. I am hoping the conversation will lead there naturally, but not sure how to bring it up otherwise.

 

[mulberry]

Comments like this are just plain idiotic. I didn't make a poor life decision, I can certainly have a better lifestyle and make several times what PMR makes for one, so don't be ridiculous. Instead of acting maturely, like most other AMGs on here have, you say ridiculous things, like your co-IMG. Typical. I won't get a spot? Are you delusional or something? If someone is competitive for rads, do you really think anyone can't get a PMR spot? So ridiculous. You made yourself look very pathetic. Figures. No thanks, Arkansas is filled with your kind. You probably matched there. Radiology is a great specialty, you simply couldn't get into it.

Aaaaannnddd, you just stooped down to his level. Shows your maturity level.

 

[axm397]

Iamnotfreud, did u finish intern year or are u a 4th year med student now?

 

[Eilat87]

People in this thread are hilarious. Why are people getting so upset? I think a BIG problem with our field is an inferiority complex that seems to stem in part from the fact that our field is NOT competitive. I personally feel that has to do more with a lack of exposure to PM&R and the fact the field is underrepresented current MD curricula more than anything else. It is NOTHING to be ashamed of. I entered an allopathic med school with ambitions of a future in PM&R. I scored well above avg. on Step 1 to give myself every possible advantage in the match. However, PM&R is an easy match for an avg. applicant. People have been stating that we are becoming more competitive for YEARS. The stats don't really support this at all.

And for everyone who keeps claiming that number of unfilled spots equates somehow to competitiveness.... this could not be further from the truth. The reality is that this actually speaks to the opposite. Despite having only about half as many AMG's applying compared to spots available, essentially all spots get filled. This simply demonstrates that our programs rank deeper and we are not as selective. Programs do not want unfilled spots and take anybody.

As I stated, I went to med school specifically for PM&R. I have absolutely no question that we are the hidden gem of all specialties. It just really annoys when people have an inferiority complex about our field. If more students actually knew what we do, many more would be interested. Unfortunately, many students who do get some exposure during med school have bad experiences (I have talked to many who told me about the staff they worked with). Again, I think this is partly due to our field not being selective enough and accepting everybody who walks in the door. I would love to see MANY more spots go unfilled rather than filled with just another warm body.

Yeah guys, let's be loud and proud! Woo!

 

[Taliesinrk]

This was entertaining reading... So thanks to everyone involved.

A few thoughts:

1. I agree with the OP that it's a bit over-the-top that a lot of members here make it seem as though PM&R is a competitive field. This led me (one of these "average med students" - or maybe even "below average") to go nuts during the application process and do multiple away rotations, dropping a lot of time and money on the process because I was worried. In retrospect, however, it was very unnecessary as the match worked out more than well. I felt like my case was a testament to how the field is not that competitive, but you would never know that by some posts around here. I love the field and people should be encouraged to go into it, but let's try not to scare applicants off by making them think it's Derm or something.

2. I thought the responses by the 2 IMGs showed a ridiculous hypersensitivity/complex on their parts. That said, the OP did not do himself ANY favors when he responded by making vast generalizations of IMGs. Not all IMGs are the same, just as not all DOs or MDs are either (and I know everyone including the OP knows that, but one of his later responses definitely didn't show it).

3. I may be mistaken, but I believe according to the last "charting outcomes" that PM&R's avg step 1 was actually 3rd lowest, ahead of both family and psych.... Will be interesting to see what the new one shows

 

[ED50]

IamnotFreud, I don't really know your personal situation but all I can say is what I would do in your position. Keep an eye out for an open spot all the while doing research and getting 1-2 letters of rec for this year. You have a unique story and by the sound of it a solid app. If you can wait you should be a shoe in for some interviews at top institutions. If you try to fill a spot you are at the mercy of wherever that institution is, whereas if you wait you can control your location and program choice (personal fit) much better. BTW I'm only an M2 so take that into consideration. Good luck.

 

[IamnotFreud]

IamnotFreud, I don't really know your personal situation but all I can say is what I would do in your position. Keep an eye out for an open spot all the while doing research and getting 1-2 letters of rec for this year. You have a unique story and by the sound of it a solid app. If you can wait you should be a shoe in for some interviews at top institutions. If you try to fill a spot you are at the mercy of wherever that institution is, whereas if you wait you can control your location and program choice (personal fit) much better. BTW I'm only an M2 so take that into consideration. Good luck.

Thanks, yes I certainly realize that but waiting 2 years to match would be a problem. I am praying and hoping that a spot at a good program opens up somewhere along the line and I can snatch it up.

 

[DrMattOglesby]

Something I've wondered about is how much it matters where you do residency if your CV is impressive enough to get into competitive PM&R fellowships.

If it is the case that a good CV will carry you through to a competitive fellowship (e.g. anesthesia-based pain), then it might not be a bad idea to grab a PM&R spot this year so that you effectually gain a year of income (compared to delaying an attending-level salary by waiting for the next match cycle).

 

[IamnotFreud]

Something I've wondered about is how much it matters where you do residency if your CV is impressive enough to get into competitive PM&R fellowships.

If it is the case that a good CV will carry you through to a competitive fellowship (e.g. anesthesia-based pain), then it might not be a bad idea to grab a PM&R spot this year so that you effectually gain a year of income (compared to delaying an attending-level salary by waiting for the next match cycle).

I have wondered that too. Income generation is not the biggest concern right now as I have no debt whatsoever from school, husband works, and I have other sources of income also. Concern is not waiting indefinitely obviously and getting into a specialty that I think will be ideal for me, that I will love, and that will get me to a career I am satisfied with. I think it would be unfortunate to have to wait 2 years. Sometimes I think the whole internship issue should be eliminated, as it does not add a tremendous amount of value to most specialties unless one is going to be a PCP and just creates this 2 year in advance start that is problematic.

Also I have heard that there is something called "R" spots, for the next year. Anyone know how that works or which programs were "R" for this match?

 

[RangerBob]

I have wondered that too. Income generation is not the biggest concern right now as I have no debt whatsoever from school, husband works, and I have other sources of income also. Concern is not waiting indefinitely obviously and getting into a specialty that I think will be ideal for me, that I will love, and that will get me to a career I am satisfied with. I think it would be unfortunate to have to wait 2 years. Sometimes I think the whole internship issue should be eliminated, as it does not add a tremendous amount of value to most specialties unless one is going to be a PCP and just creates this 2 year in advance start that is problematic.

Also I have heard that there is something called "R" spots, for the next year. Anyone know how that works or which programs were "R" for this match?

R positions in the 2013 Match included:
Marianjoy
Michigan State
University of Minnesota
University of Michigan
St Louis University
NYMC
SUNY Brooklyn
Temple
UT Southwestern, Dallas
University of Washington

That's actually quite a few programs... I don't know if most of those are due to a PGY1 deciding to drop out of PM&R, or if it's due to creating of a new positions (the case with UMN), or perhaps that the program just always has a spot or two for a PGY1 to match into.

 

[IamnotFreud]

R positions in the 2013 Match included:
Marianjoy
Michigan State
University of Minnesota
University of Michigan
St Louis University
NYMC
SUNY Brooklyn
Temple
UT Southwestern, Dallas
University of Washington

That's actually quite a few programs... I don't know if most of those are due to a PGY1 deciding to drop out of PM&R, or if it's due to creating of a new positions (the case with UMN), or perhaps that the program just always has a spot or two for a PGY1 to match into.

Oh wow, just 10. That's not a lot. That's what sucks, if something does open up, do I take a gamble on a program, wait for an R spot, or what? Waiting 2 years is a lot.

 

[RangerBob]

Oh wow, just 10. That's not a lot. That's what sucks, if something does open up, do I take a gamble on a program, wait for an R spot, or what? Waiting 2 years is a lot.

There were more than 10 spots--some of those programs had up to 2 or 4 positions.

If something opens up and you're interested in it, then it's a no brainer to go for it. I think the tough question is if something you're not so excited about opens up, whether it's worth going for it, or waiting. I think that's a question only you can answer--as you point out, waiting 2 years is quite a long time. If nothing shows up in the next year that you decide is worth applying to, you can also apply for all the R positions for 2014, so that you'd only end up waiting one year. You can rank all the R positions first in the match, that way, if you don't get an R position, there's all the other ones you can fall back on.

Also, if you do a categorical program, you only have to wait a year, since they'd start in 2014. I know that means repeating intern year, but some of the PGY1 years are pretty interestingly organized and might not be so bad (UMN, Penn, UC Davis, UNC, UPMC, UVA, and probably at least a couple others).

If you have any interest, it might not be a bad time to get an MPH or MHA. Personally, I'd get a masters in biomechanical/rehab engineering if I had the time and no debt But obviously those would only be worth it if it might help your future career.

 

[SMC123]

in terms of having failed the comlex 1 once but showing profound interest in all other categories, what chance may i have in this field?

Sent from my SGH-T959 using SDN Mobile

 

[DrMattOglesby]

Not suggesting this pertains to anyone here, but I want to comment that there are programs that do not consider applicants with gaps in their education/training. Therefore, it's important to continue working internships or taking on research fellowship positions.

 

[RangerBob]

in terms of having failed the comlex 1 once but showing profound interest in all other categories, what chance may i have in this field?

Sent from my SGH-T959 using SDN Mobile

I know someone who failed step 1 but matched at a very good program. Failing Comlex 1 will probably shut some doors, but if the rest of your application is good, and you apply/interview broadly, I think you can still do well.

One thing that would help a lot is doing an away rotation at a program to show off your interest/talents.

 

[IamnotFreud]

Not suggesting this pertains to anyone here, but I want to comment that there are programs that do not consider applicants with gaps in their education/training. Therefore, it's important to continue working internships or taking on research fellowship positions.

Really? I have never heard that before. Which programs in particular?

 

[DrMattOglesby]

in terms of having failed the comlex 1 once but showing profound interest in all other categories, what chance may i have in this field?

Really? I have never heard that before. Which programs in particular?

From UVa's program FAQ

"Q: What is your program looking for in an applicant?
A: Our program seeks recent medical school graduates with a commitment to physical medicine and rehabilitation, a good academic record, good clinical skills, and a solid pass on the first attempt at the USMLE or COMLEX.

Q: Do you have a score cut-off for applicants for exams?
A: No, but we are looking for those who pass exams the first time they take them. As far as desired scores, you are competing with the rest of the applicant pool.

Q: Do you have a cut-off for years since graduation from medical school?
A: No, but we prefer you either to have graduated within five years, or to have been involved in clinical work since then."


Here are UWashington's eligibility requirements
An applicant will usually be invited for interview if he/she has fulfilled the following eligibility requirements:
"Passed all basic science courses on the first attempt
Passed all required clerkships on the first attempt
Completed a PM&R clerkship
Passed USMLE Step 1 with a minimum of 200, or COMLEX Part 1 with a minimum of 500 on the first attempt
Favorable letters of recommendation, including one from a PM&R clerkship
Applicants with unusual strengths who do not meet all the above criteria will be considered on an individual basis."


From Albany's PM&R program:
"USMLE of 220 or better are preferred (1st attempt). COMLEX is also accepted.
Graduation from medical school within the last 4 years"



So I guess these comments pertain mostly to SMC123 as it seems i couldn't retrieve the reference for the particular program that does not consider applicants with gaps in their training. I'll keep an eye out for it though...apologies in advance if I was mistaken in my earlier comment.

 

[IamnotFreud]

From UVa's program FAQ

"Q: What is your program looking for in an applicant?
A: Our program seeks recent medical school graduates with a commitment to physical medicine and rehabilitation, a good academic record, good clinical skills, and a solid pass on the first attempt at the USMLE or COMLEX.

Q: Do you have a score cut-off for applicants for exams?
A: No, but we are looking for those who pass exams the first time they take them. As far as desired scores, you are competing with the rest of the applicant pool.

Q: Do you have a cut-off for years since graduation from medical school?
A: No, but we prefer you either to have graduated within five years, or to have been involved in clinical work since then."


Here are UWashington's eligibility requirements
An applicant will usually be invited for interview if he/she has fulfilled the following eligibility requirements:
"Passed all basic science courses on the first attempt
Passed all required clerkships on the first attempt
Completed a PM&R clerkship
Passed USMLE Step 1 with a minimum of 200, or COMLEX Part 1 with a minimum of 500 on the first attempt
Favorable letters of recommendation, including one from a PM&R clerkship
Applicants with unusual strengths who do not meet all the above criteria will be considered on an individual basis."


From Albany's PM&R program:
"USMLE of 220 or better are preferred (1st attempt). COMLEX is also accepted.
Graduation from medical school within the last 4 years"



So I guess these comments pertain mostly to SMC123 as it seems i couldn't retrieve the reference for the particular program that does not consider applicants with gaps in their training. I'll keep an eye out for it though...apologies in advance if I was mistaken in my earlier comment.

No apologies needed.

 

[SMC123]

well that removes me from at least three programs. are these considered higher tier programs?

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[DrMattOglesby]

well that removes me from at least three programs. are these considered higher tier programs?

These programs used language that did not indicate that these were strict criteria.
However, I was told in an email exchange with Stanford that in the past application cycle, they only reviewed applications with Step 1 >220.

The take home from this is if you have something impressive on your application, it could potentially make up for any deficits.

 

[SMC123]

can you guys name some lower tier programs on the east coast?

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[DrMattOglesby]

can you guys name some lower tier programs on the east coast?

As I have not yet applied, I won't dare publicly soil any program's name (nor would I do so post-application). But I will say that there are a handful of programs that have developed good reputations over the years. These include, but are definitely not limited to:

1. Mayo
2. RIC
3. Baylor
4. U Washington
5. Kessler
6. Harvard
7. Columbia/Cornell

I am also pretty sure all the California programs are a bit more competitive to get because everthing in Cali is that way. Plus they have great programs so it makes sense.

PS: Here is a google maps page with all the PM&R programs.

 

[Prof Moriarty]

Wow. Interesting thread. I almost thought I was in the wild west (anesthesia forum) for a second. I'm not used to all this entertainment on the PM&R forum. Reading this, some questions come to mind.

Why would the OP come on the PM&R forum and bash some programs and IMG's? (Kudos for backing off on the DO comments... that's some baaad mojo.) Why does the OP feel compelled to "put PM&R in it's place" and drive home the point multiple times that PM&R is not as competitive as radiology and some other highly competitive specialties? Why would the OP specifically call out the Arkansas program, denigrating the program and its residents (and its chair, PD, and faculty by association)? Why is the OP so condescending to IMG's/FMG's (IMO, inviting the defensive response)?

I don't know why. This is a pretty small community and every one of those people is a potential future colleague, teacher, PD, Dept Chair, etc. Even if the OP really is as rabidly anti-FMG as he/she sounds, why the need to tell the world about it? There are radiology programs with FMG residents too. Does the OP feel the same way about these programs?

I've never seen anyone compare PM&R's competitiveness to derm, except with a tongue in cheek one of these: . Why the vehement denial and rant?

As the OP has discovered, by many measures, PM&R compares favorably to other specialties, including some of the more competitive fields. That does not mean it is as competitive.

The same set of statistics can be used to make a variety of different points, generalizable to a population. But what matters to most med students in this process is their likelihood to match at a program they desire. For the past few years, the subjective experience of many med students, residents, faculty, and PD's seems to have been that the field is getting more competitive, with better applicants. Several people have commented on this. Why does the OP feel the need to police the forum to "set the record straight?"

I'll admit that I don't even disagree with some of the OP's points. I just don't understand the need to make them here, and then belabor them. Some of these points - even if true - are rude and condescending and do not merit posting in black and white. At this point, the main person I've seen talking about the competitiveness level of PM&R is the OP.

My best advice: This is a small field. Be nice to everyone. Be professional with everyone. If you really like PM&R and understand what it's about, you should do fine. Coming to it a little later in the game may cost you some time or place you at a "lesser" program than you might otherwise have obtained. You must weigh the pros and cons of your alternatives and choose. In the past, several decent positions have opened up at various times for various reasons. That could happen again but there is obviously no guarantee. Build your resume and be prepared to take advantage if/when it does. If you have a radiology spot lined up, I wouldn't give it up without a definite position somewhere else. I think you are just as likely to obtain a PM&R position from radiology as you are from a research position, if not more so. If you haven't done so already, you need to do a PM&R rotation. Who knows... if you have limited experience with PM&R, you may find the reality does not match your expectation; or you may get to your radiology position and find renewed interest.

The questions above are rhetorical. No need to answer for me.

 

[RangerBob]

I am also pretty sure all the California programs are a bit more competitive to get because everthing in Cali is that way. Plus they have great programs so it makes sense.

I agree that the CA programs are definitely more competitive than they otherwise would be if they were located elsewhere. I think Davis, Stanford, and UCLA are all strong programs, but they're not as well-balanced (esp Davis and UCLA, in my opinion) as many of the Midwest/East Coast programs. But if you already know if you want to practice either inpatient or outpatient, then they're fantastic for that.

I do feel PM&R gets less respect in CA and the West in general. Which is ironic to me because the philosophy of PM&R is rather in harmony with the general "philosophy of the West Coast".

 

[IamnotFreud]

I agree that the CA programs are definitely more competitive than they otherwise would be if they were located elsewhere. I think Davis, Stanford, and UCLA are all strong programs, but they're not as well-balanced (esp Davis and UCLA, in my opinion) as many of the Midwest/East Coast programs. But if you already know if you want to practice either inpatient or outpatient, then they're fantastic for that.

I do feel PM&R gets less respect in CA and the West in general. Which is ironic to me because the philosophy of PM&R is rather in harmony with the general "philosophy of the West Coast".

Which do you consider the best programs in the midwest and the NY area? I have not seen a ton of reviews on them so curious if you have any knowledge/experience with them.

 

[RangerBob]

Which do you consider the best programs in the midwest and the NY area? I have not seen a ton of reviews on them so curious if you have any knowledge/experience with them.

Generally regarded as the top programs:

NY Area: Kessler (now affiliated with Rutgers).
Midwest: Mayo, RIC (Northwestern), U Michigan.

 

[JuliusErving]

Generally regarded as the top programs:

NY Area: Kessler (now affiliated with Rutgers).
Midwest: Mayo, RIC (Northwestern), U Michigan.

Michigan? I've heard it's a good program, but I didn't think it was a class above Columbia/Cornell and Mt. Sinai.

 

[RangerBob]

Michigan? I've heard it's a good program, but I didn't think it was a class above Columbia/Cornell and Mt. Sinai.

I hear Michigan's name thrown around more than the ones you mentioned, but I also had no interest in NY, so I never sought out info on those programs. The only program in the NY area I applied to was Kessler, and I ended up canceling that interview. Otherwise, the closest I got to NY was Philadelphia & Richmond. So, my knowledge/opinion of NY programs is very limited.

To be honest, when I think about top programs, I think about UW, Mayo, RIC, Kessler. Then there are a lot of what I would still consider very strong programs, good programs that get the job done, and programs that at least will still make you a physiatrist.

 

[JuliusErving]

I hear Michigan's name thrown around more than the ones you mentioned, but I also had no interest in NY, so I never sought out info on those programs. The only program in the NY area I applied to was Kessler, and I ended up canceling that interview. Otherwise, the closest I got to NY was Philadelphia & Richmond. So, my knowledge/opinion of NY programs is very limited.

To be honest, when I think about top programs, I think about UW, Mayo, RIC, Kessler. Then there are a lot of what I would still consider very strong programs, good programs that get the job done, and programs that at least will still make you a physiatrist.

Agree, though I'd toss Baylor/UTH in with the elite.

 

[nvrsumr]

Michigan? I've heard it's a good program, but I didn't think it was a class above Columbia/Cornell and Mt. Sinai.

The year I graduated 4 of 6 UM residents got accepted to anesthesia pain programs. All had multiple acceptances. It was a bit more competitive and the biases against Pmr were more pronounced than today.

 

[Taliesinrk]

It's interesting what people keep calling "elite". Taking TIRR for example... if someone wanted to focus on outpatient/msk, would you still call the program in Houston "elite"? What makes a program elite anyhow? I had heard multiple people state that the residents indicated they weren't happy at TIRR (were overworked, program malignant, etc). So how are we qualifying these programs as elite vs mid-tier vs lower tier?

Please also note: I never even applied to TIRR and do not currently know anyone in their program, so my statements should not be construed as fact... I'm just using this program because it was brought up and is a place I've heard various things about (both in person and on this site) from "best program in the country" and "wont get better training anywhere else" to "absolutely do not apply there - the residents are miserable"... And "lacking in msk training". I bring it up because it seems we all categorize some programs as elite and others as much worse, when in reality, it seems there are varying opinions on many programs... From the "best" to the "worst" - and for students trying to apply to these programs, I think it can be very misleading.

 

[RangerBob]

It's interesting what people keep calling "elite". Taking TIRR for example... if someone wanted to focus on outpatient/msk, would you still call the program in Houston "elite"? What makes a program elite anyhow? I had heard multiple people state that the residents indicated they weren't happy at TIRR (were overworked, program malignant, etc). So how are we qualifying these programs as elite vs mid-tier vs lower tier?

Please also note: I never even applied to TIRR and do not currently know anyone in their program, so my statements should not be construed as fact... I'm just using this program because it was brought up and is a place I've heard various things about (both in person and on this site) from "best program in the country" and "wont get better training anywhere else" to "absolutely do not apply there - the residents are miserable"... And "lacking in msk training". I bring it up because it seems we all categorize some programs as elite and others as much worse, when in reality, it seems there are varying opinions on many programs... From the "best" to the "worst" - and for students trying to apply to these programs, I think it can be very misleading.

I definitely agree that many of the top-ranked PM&R programs have limitations--every program does. I think they key is finding the program that is the right fit for you. At least that's what I looked for--where do I feel I'll get the training I want, in the friendly atmosphere I want, and ideally, geographically where I want.