Roadblocks All the Way!

[sugaree]

Every step of the way I encounter roadblocks in the form of admissions process being geared completely toward people right out of college. This includes the AAMC expecting us (adults) to include financial statements from our PARENTS (mine are in their 80's) when applying for fee assistance. My parents have not fee-assisted me for a lot of years, nor are they planning to finance my medical school applications which will easily amount to over $2000.

Secondary app questions such as "if you took any time off between college and applying to medical school please give a chronological account of your activities." ...then they give you 200 or less words. This is FUNNY. This is constant. Everywhere I look there are more quizzical situations that make it either impossible for us to actually answer the question presented without a disclaimer, or it just takes ten times as long to complete an application. Twenty years of activity is a lot to account for, and it takes a lot of time to edit those activities appropriately.

I have done SO much more than your average med school applicant, and as a result was waitlisted last year with the main criticism being that there "was so much on your application the committee questioned how focused you would be able to be once in medical school"

In a sense, this is a direct result of being a person who brings diversity and accomplishment to a class, yet being discriminated against because I have lived longer and had many more experiences. How does this make me "less focused"? It is a bunch of bullcrap if you ask me. My scores and GPA's are quite competitive, however. Yes, I am changing careers, actually changed almost five years ago, and everything I've done in the meantime is about getting into med school.

this year I re-wrote my essay and made my app appear much more focused, and left out many important accomplishments in my life in order to only focus on those that point toward medical school. No one could have prepared me for this. There are no books out there to guide non-traditional applicants.

Still, the whole system is designed around 23 year olds. With roadblock after roadblock and all the in-your-face institutionalized discrimination I have faced so far, it is a miracle that any of you actually get accepted.

It is very clear to everyone around me that I would make a great doctor. The trick is learning how to put those certain things down on your application so you "appear" the way the committees want you to appear. And yes, I think it is ridiculous to give a seat to someone who is 22 and has a 4.0 the first time in college over someone older with more maturity and experience who did not do so well the first time, but has had an exceptional life and kicked ass the second time around (even more difficult to get good grades the second time around, in my opinion)

But that is not the way it is. Apparently we have to play the GAME that it is and put the stuff they want to see on the app., dumb yourself down, and don't appear too interesting or you will confuse the committee members because they just can't believe anyone can be so accomplished yet also excel in medicine, despite all evidence to the contrary.

All similar experiences welcome and anticipated...

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Members don't see this ad.

 

[carl414]

Sugaree, I think that as non-trads we have to work harder to prove our commitment than traditional students.

I've ricocheted around from job to job, even goofed up my first couple years back at school with 2.5 gpa's and W's from when I had to return to work unexpectedly. I recognize that it's now or never for my chances at becoming a doctor. I found my passion late, but there's nothing wrong with that. I think if you can prove your passion and correlate a significant life changing habits, then I can't imagine not being considered fairly.

I've now quit my job and am working fervently with the schools to sort out my past issues. With a TON of work, and singleminded effort, I'm hoping to resurrect an otherwise blah history. Good luck to us all.

 

[Dianyla]

Everything you say here is true.

We have to jump through the hoops anyway.

 

[CookDeRosa]

Everything you say here is true.

We have to jump through the hoops anyway.

Yes. I think about this a lot. I worry that I'll be able to convince "them" more than I worry about my ability to succeed.

 

[eablackwell]

Roadblocks are no problem for me. Since I'm in a wheelchair I can just attach my bulldozer accessory.

 

[Dianyla]

Roadblocks are no problem for me. Since I'm in a wheelchair I can just attach my bulldozer accessory.

I think that's the most awesome reply I've ever read on SDN.

 

[aesposito]

Roadblocks are no problem for me. Since I'm in a wheelchair I can just attach my bulldozer accessory.

*snort*... does that thing come with a backhoe too?

 

[briton]

I have to disagree. Sure, for us older applicants our accomplishments and experience may be too extensive to fit into a few hundred words but that gives us the option to pick the more interesting ones for inclusion, rather than having to put down some second rate experiences just to fill the space. No-one can realistically expect you to fit 20 years into 200 words, so why try? As long as there are no glaring omissions, I doubt they care. When I called to ask about this I was told to "just do my best" to include as much as I could. Besides, the application is just the door opener and there is plenty of time to highlight great experiences and fill in gaps during interview.

I do agree that it is ridiculous to expect us to include details of our parents' finances when we have been independent for decades, but is it any less ridiculous for a 23 year old who has paid their own way since they left home at 18? It's just a flawed system.

I am sorry that others have experienced a feeling of being discriminated against for being older and having more experiences. I actually experienced the exact opposite in my interviews and left them very encouraged. I have also been encouraged to see so many of us older people in my medical school class.

 

[eablackwell]

*snort*... does that thing come with a backhoe too?[/]

When I was a kid my dad's nickname for me was inspector gadget.

 

[sugaree]

Roadblocks are no problem for me. Since I'm in a wheelchair I can just attach my bulldozer accessory.

<<<<<<<HA>>>>>>> I love you.

 

[sugaree]

I have to disagree. Sure, for us older applicants our accomplishments and experience may be too extensive to fit into a few hundred words but that gives us the option to pick the more interesting ones for inclusion, rather than having to put down some second rate experiences just to fill the space. No-one can realistically expect you to fit 20 years into 200 words, so why try? As long as there are no glaring omissions, I doubt they care. When I called to ask about this I was told to "just do my best" to include as much as I could. Besides, the application is just the door opener and there is plenty of time to highlight great experiences and fill in gaps during interview.

I do agree that it is ridiculous to expect us to include details of our parents' finances when we have been independent for decades, but is it any less ridiculous for a 23 year old who has paid their own way since they left home at 18? It's just a flawed system.

I am sorry that others have experienced a feeling of being discriminated against for being older and having more experiences. I actually experienced the exact opposite in my interviews and left them very encouraged. I have also been encouraged to see so many of us older people in my medical school class.

I agree with you as well, despite appearing not to. Institutionalized discrimination exists and sure, you can be wise as one needs to be and spin it into a positive experience. I do that. I think one would have to or no one over 30 would ever apply to med school. Im noticing more little things each school I do a secondary for... it is a flawed system and maybe someday it will change so those ofter us will not have to "interpret" each question, or call the admissions office for suggestions on how to approach a simple question geared toward a 23 year old. Mostly I am making observations. Overall, Im pretty glad to be a part of all this.

 

[wholeheartedly]

Roadblocks are no problem for me. Since I'm in a wheelchair I can just attach my bulldozer accessory.

ea, you rock! (and roll too I suppose)

 

[Armywife06]

Having to report our parent's income is completely insane. I'm 26, married, and have children. My STEP-FATHER is a doctor, and since my mother and him file joint tax return, I have to report his income, which I think is really unfair. He is my step-father, and doesn't have and has never had any financial obligation to me. I'm on my own to fund the application process and medical school, yet I have to report his income which is far above the cut off for any assistance. They really should revise this policy. For some of us, even if our parents or step-parents do make "good" money, that doesn't mean they are going to fund our education.

 

[Namedmymember]

Plenty of nontrads make it through the system and get accepted. Stop complaining and just do it.

 

[Lacheln]

EA - you rock!

OP - I agree that the process is geared toward the young traditional applicant, in terms of how they frame their questions. That doesn't surprise me a whole lot, since I think historically speaking it represents the type of person who tended to apply to medical school (rightly or wrongly).

To play devil's advocate, just as someone else said, I didn't find narrowing down my activities hard because I just picked and chose what I felt best represented me in light of the fact that I was applying to medical school. I guess I viewed it as a resumé, in which I would highlight the appropriate objective/projects/skills etc depending on the job.

On the other hand, aside from being a career changer, I am not all that non-trad. I have a science background, I am not THAT old (only one foot in the grave), and have not been juggling kids. So maybe my sales job wasn't that hard for a reason. I sang a little mea culpa over my craptastic ugrad gpa in my apps, but no one actually brought it up in interviews. We are offering a different product than the trads, that's for sure. I say take the reins and use whatever vehicle they provide to best tell your story. Don't adapt yourself to fit some mold that wasn't designed for you in the first place. I really don't think they expect you to approach it the same way a 20yo would.

As far as the $$ goes...yes, it's ridiculous that you have to provide financial info from your parents when you have dependents yourself. Aside from having dependents yourself, I don't really know what would count as a fair cutoff age. Part of me says that if you come from a financially stable background and have been working/supporting yourself for several years, there's no obvious reason you are less able to subsidize your schooling than a newbie just out of college who also has a financially stable parental unit. While I definitely grant you that as a non-trad we are less likely to be getting parental contributions than our trad coapplicants, they are also less likely to have had the chance to save up much $$ of their own through working, and many of them don't receive help from their parents either. What's really a travesty is that med school is so prohibitively expensive in the first place. JMO

Sorry, I know you're venting. I just wanted to let you know it's not necessarily as tough of a battle as it can seem sometimes.

 

[student1799]

Yes, a lot of this stuff makes no sense. But you can't change any of it. Therefore, it does you no good to get TOO angry about any of it, because it will just eat you up. So do what I try to do: throw your head back and have a good laugh at the absurdity of it all.

Here's a thread I started a couple of years ago about the same subject you just mentioned: nontrads trying to fill out secondaries meant for much younger people. Nontrad Fun with Secondaries

And there is a bright side to being a nontrad: assuming we make it to the interview stage, we tend to do WAY better than the 22-year-olds. Our interviewing skills have been honed by expeience, and our lives are chock full of interesting stuff to talk about. And the interviewers you'll meet are generally extremely nice and supportive toward nontrads.

P.S. I agree with you about the silliness of demanding parents' financials, but you can't really blame the schools for this one. I found out from a school official that it's a Federal requirement for the Stafford loan program, which is the main source of aid at most schools.

 

[Gfliptastic]

Yes, a lot of this stuff makes no sense. But you can't change any of it. Therefore, it does you no good to get TOO angry about any of it, because it will just eat you up. So do what I try to do: throw your head back and have a good laugh at the absurdity of it all.

Here's a thread I started a couple of years ago about the same subject you just mentioned: nontrads trying to fill out secondaries meant for much younger people. Nontrad Fun with Secondaries

And there is a bright side to being a nontrad: assuming we make it to the interview stage, we tend to do WAY better than the 22-year-olds. Our interviewing skills have been honed by expeience, and our lives are chock full of interesting stuff to talk about. And the interviewers you'll meet are generally extremely nice and supportive toward nontrads.

P.S. I agree with you about the silliness of demanding parents' financials, but you can't really blame the schools for this one. I found out from a school official that it's a Federal requirement for the Stafford loan program, which is the main source of aid at most schools.

You betcha!

OP, your rant was poignant. Hopefully you've mellowed to see a lot of the advice being offered. It is tougher to do as a non-trad, but at the same time, if you take the time to do answer those "biased" questions well, it shows dedication/determination. And that is one of the most essential traits.

Getting back to the bolded, I'll help you out...for when you get to the interview stage.

On my last 3 interviews, you want to know what the questions they asked were? (Cuz all 3 were eeriely similar - since I believe all med schools are switching to a KSA Performance Based Interview)

- Tell us about yourself
- Use 3 words to describe yourself (or 3 words others might use to describe you)
- What is your one weakness?
- Describe an ethically challenging situation and how you handled it
- Describe a conflict or confrontation you've had with a classmate/colleague and how you handled it
- Describe a leadership role and how you handled it
- Describe a situation in which you utilized teamwork and how you handled it. Follow up: What was essential?

First 3 are found in "traditional" interviews, italicized are KSA/PBI.

The ap MAY be geared towards younger applicants, but you can see that once at the interview phase, it's actually biased towards older, more mature applicants. The KSA/PBI questions are weighted slightly more than the traditional questions, and you have to admit you have an advantage answering those over some 22 year old.

Entertaining read/rant tho! GL!

 

[sugaree]

Yes, a lot of this stuff makes no sense. But you can't change any of it. Therefore, it does you no good to get TOO angry about any of it, because it will just eat you up. So do what I try to do: throw your head back and have a good laugh at the absurdity of it all.

Here's a thread I started a couple of years ago about the same subject you just mentioned: nontrads trying to fill out secondaries meant for much younger people. Nontrad Fun with Secondaries

And there is a bright side to being a nontrad: assuming we make it to the interview stage, we tend to do WAY better than the 22-year-olds. Our interviewing skills have been honed by expeience, and our lives are chock full of interesting stuff to talk about. And the interviewers you'll meet are generally extremely nice and supportive toward nontrads.

P.S. I agree with you about the silliness of demanding parents' financials, but you can't really blame the schools for this one. I found out from a school official that it's a Federal requirement for the Stafford loan program, which is the main source of aid at most schools.

Not true, or misinformation, they are misinformed. DO general app uses the FAFSA to determine eligibility for fee assistance, which is the Federal required form to determine eligibility for loans and scholarships, etc. If you are NOT declared a dependent on your parents tax returns, you do not use their income in your income valuation. The AACOMCAS application and DO schools have given me their full fee assistance so I do not have to pay app fees or secondary app fees, which can be very pricey ($250 for the secondary app at one of the schools in New England - ridiculous)

AMCAS has their own contrived system. If you just graduated from college or just a year or two out, it is likely your parents are still claiming you as a dependent. Not everyone, though, and this is really tough for people who are 20 but independent for whatever reason, usually not a nice one. If their parents earn more than around 58,000 a year, the student can't get any fee assistance regardless of their own income.

This is NOT how the federal guidelines work for financial aid. Federal guidelines use the FAFSA.

AMCAS makes millions of dollars off us, and I think it should stop, and I am wondering if what they are doing is even legal, nevermind the may med schools that automatically generate secondaries and an "extra 130 bucks" to everyone who submits an app. even those they well know will not make their cut. It is essentially unethical at best.


I am not personally upset, I am also not whining, Im doing this cause I choose to and know about the hoops - watch me jump - just noticing more and more things that are standing out to me. In my opinion, AMCAS is not better than the credit card companies or wall street. SIX weeks to verify an application????? For all that cash we pay they can't hire a few more minimum wage bean counters to take care of our applications?

Just saying it would be nice to call these folks what they are - extortionists - at best!

I just do what I need to do and put the blinders on, but find it almost comical what we put up with... no wonder there are so many bitter residents and doctors with angry, arrogant attitudes demanding respect after all the crap they go through to get where they are. Family medicine? Give me a good reason better then 80 grand a year... lol.

 

[sugaree]

You betcha!

OP, your rant was poignant. Hopefully you've mellowed to see a lot of the advice being offered. It is tougher to do as a non-trad, but at the same time, if you take the time to do answer those "biased" questions well, it shows dedication/determination. And that is one of the most essential traits.

Getting back to the bolded, I'll help you out...for when you get to the interview stage.

On my last 3 interviews, you want to know what the questions they asked were? (Cuz all 3 were eeriely similar - since I believe all med schools are switching to a KSA Performance Based Interview)

- Tell us about yourself
- Use 3 words to describe yourself (or 3 words others might use to describe you)
- What is your one weakness?
- Describe an ethically challenging situation and how you handled it
- Describe a conflict or confrontation you've had with a classmate/colleague and how you handled it
- Describe a leadership role and how you handled it
- Describe a situation in which you utilized teamwork and how you handled it. Follow up: What was essential?

First 3 are found in "traditional" interviews, italicized are KSA/PBI.

The ap MAY be geared towards younger applicants, but you can see that once at the interview phase, it's actually biased towards older, more mature applicants. The KSA/PBI questions are weighted slightly more than the traditional questions, and you have to admit you have an advantage answering those over some 22 year old.

Entertaining read/rant tho! GL!

Yes indeedy - interviews are much much easier, or should I say less challenging and surprising for us, who have had to do this many more times, and there are many other advantages, but the key is making sure that you don't overlook those hoops and tricks and pony shows they are looking for in terms of showing the "right" stuff on the application, know what I mean?

I love that link the other poster put up BTW. All the stuff I write here I imagine the segment on the Daily Show and how it fits right in.

My "former" business was also a very competitive one - many try but few get past the starting gate, so there is also a real "pay your dues" attitude amongst some of the more bitter elite that gets passed on to the up and comers. You have to put your blinders on, dumb yourself down a little around insecure bosses, and play the game if you want to get anywhere.

I don't think medical school and medicine in general has the patent on political savvy requirements for success, or on using your head and not stepping in the poop in order to get past go. This tends to be everywhere especially if it is a job that is as awesome as doctoring, or the case of my former professional identity. It is worse for actors. The establishment has free reign on humiliation and money-grubbing middle men.

This is true for ANY job worth having.

 

[Crelal]

I have to agree about parents' income- I hadn't been listed on my parents' tax returns as a dependent in at least 6 or 7 years by the time I was applying. Quite weird approaching my parents to ask for financial info...

My personal biggest gripe about the process is the fact that they ask for the number of dependents. I believe that should fall under the category of 'none of your business' personally. If I have managed to make it this far with 10 dependents, that shouldn't be allowed as a potential exclusion factor on a primary application. Explore that issue in your secondary/interview process (because I do believe it is valid to explore how someone with children plans on getting through the nonclinical and then clinical years).

The rest? Hoops my friend. And the hoops don't end when you are accepted, or get through first/second/third/fourth year or residency.

 

[Pons Asinorum]

On my last 3 interviews, you want to know what the questions they asked were? (Cuz all 3 were eeriely similar - since I believe all med schools are switching to a KSA Performance Based Interview)
...

While I agree that I'm at a distinct advantage (over trad applicants) if adcoms are moving towards PBI, I still HATE these questions. If they are, then expect this wrinkle (as it's how they are framed in most corporate managerial interviews): answer those questions using experiences/instances you HAVE NOT discussed in the primary/secondary application/prior answers. It's no more formulaic than the old-style questions, because these days everybody expects PBI-type questions. Whatever. Silly interview rant disengaged.

 

[sugaree]

While I agree that I'm at a distinct advantage (over trad applicants) if adcoms are moving towards PBI, I still HATE these questions. If they are, then expect this wrinkle (as it's how they are framed in most corporate managerial interviews): answer those questions using experiences/instances you HAVE NOT discussed in the primary/secondary application/prior answers. It's no more formulaic than the old-style questions, because these days everybody expects PBI-type questions. Whatever. Silly interview rant disengaged.

What is KSA and PBI? Performance based interview? What is that, exactly.

The fact that someone "made it this far" with ten dependents is an amazing testimony to how well they will do in medical school and meet those challenges. Unfortunately they often use it as a reason to screen people OUT. But I agree - should be none of their business unless you choose to make it so.

BTW I write fast and am not "upset" just interested.

 

[Lacheln]

P.S. I agree with you about the silliness of demanding parents' financials, but you can't really blame the schools for this one. I found out from a school official that it's a Federal requirement for the Stafford loan program, which is the main source of aid at most schools.

Sugaree is correct that this is not true. Parental information is only required to apply for institutional aid - fafsa doesn't require it.

 

[drizzt3117]

why should med schools change their admissions process? If anything I think NTs have advantages in the application process that don't actually bear out in the performance in med school, but that's just my experience.

 

[Lacheln]

why should med schools change their admissions process? If anything I think NTs have advantages in the application process that don't actually bear out in the performance in med school, but that's just my experience.

Thanks for sharing, so great of you to stop by.

 

[Don Draper]

why should med schools change their admissions process? If anything I think NTs have advantages in the application process that don't actually bear out in the performance in med school, but that's just my experience.

 

[Pons Asinorum]

What is KSA and PBI? Performance based interview? What is that, exactly.

The fact that someone "made it this far" with ten dependents is an amazing testimony to how well they will do in medical school and meet those challenges. Unfortunately they often use it as a reason to screen people OUT. But I agree - should be none of their business unless you choose to make it so.

BTW I write fast and am not "upset" just interested.

KSA is the federal government's version of PBI...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knowledge_Skills_and_Abilities

PBI is Performance-Based Interviewing (also called behavior-based interviewing, or assessment). It's exactly as described above; interviewer asks questions that require a narrative that should hit on some traits that are considered important in the position. Here's a good primer...

http://www.performancesolutions.nc.gov/staffinginitiatives/selection/docs/selection_interviewformats_behaviorbasedinterviewquestions.pdf

 

[Gfliptastic]

KSA is the federal government's version of PBI...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knowledge_Skills_and_Abilities

PBI is Performance-Based Interviewing (also called behavior-based interviewing, or assessment). It's exactly as described above; interviewer asks questions that require a narrative that should hit on some traits that are considered important in the position. Here's a good primer...

http://www.performancesolutions.nc.gov/staffinginitiatives/selection/docs/selection_interviewformats_behaviorbasedinterviewquestions.pdf

Good stuff Pons!

Yes, I've been interviewed several times. And if I didn't work for the VA I wouldn't notice the similarity between KSA/PBI and the questions.

Since KSA does (as listed) stand for Knowledge, Skill, Abilities - there should be a noticeable trend that medical schools are now looking for KSA's involving

ethical decisions
conflict resolution
leadership abilities
collaboration/cooperation abilities

As alluded to by Pons...and by me, it's NOT enough anymore just to say, "Yes I am ethical, a leader, etc." NO, you need to describe specific situations that illustrate it. (Envision if you will, a proclaimed environmentalist who litters and drives an H2) How can one say they are a leader w/o actually having an experience to SHOW a leadership AND illustrate success!? If you can coach a youth softball team to lose in a 1-20 slaughter in the teen tournament, does that show you are a leader?

Don't just talk the talk, walk the talk! It's just another layer of bullcrap detection by the AC's!

 

[drizzt3117]

Thanks for sharing, so great of you to stop by.

You're welcome! Any time really. I guess I've never really identified as NT despite clearly being non-traditional.

 

[Repm]

I'm new to the process, and I'm sure much of what you're saying is true, but I noticed a bit of a sense of entitlement / whining in your post. Specifically:

"It is very clear to everyone around me that I would make a great doctor."

and

"And yes, I think it is ridiculous to give a seat to someone who is 22 and has a 4.0 the first time in college over someone older with more maturity and experience who did not do so well the first time, but has had an exceptional life and kicked ass the second time around (even more difficult to get good grades the second time around, in my opinion)"


If this kind of defensive attitude comes through in your application, it could be detrimental in my opinion. I don't think it is at all apparent that anyone will be a great doctor until they have actually become a great doctor. What does the average person know about what traits are sufficient for becoming a great doc?

Also, I don't necessarily think the second quoted statement is true either. The person who is 22 with a 4.0 has shown that they've done well 100% of the time they've been in college. They were focused and they achieved a high GPA. The person with a lower undergrad GPA but a higher GPA in classes taken later has shown that while they are capable of maturing, it took them longer to match the level of performance of the 22 year old with the 4.0 (assuming that there were not serious reasons for the lower initial GPA -- like taking care of an ill relative, etc.)

 

[drizzt3117]

the OP wasn't showing any entitlement at all

Apparently that's not the sole province of the 20 something premeds

I'm new to the process, and I'm sure much of what you're saying is true, but I noticed a bit of a sense of entitlement / whining in your post. Specifically:

"It is very clear to everyone around me that I would make a great doctor."

and

"And yes, I think it is ridiculous to give a seat to someone who is 22 and has a 4.0 the first time in college over someone older with more maturity and experience who did not do so well the first time, but has had an exceptional life and kicked ass the second time around (even more difficult to get good grades the second time around, in my opinion)"


If this kind of defensive attitude comes through in your application, it could be detrimental in my opinion. I don't think it is at all apparent that anyone will be a great doctor until they have actually become a great doctor. What does the average person know about what traits are sufficient for becoming a great doc?

Also, I don't necessarily think the second quoted statement is true either. The person who is 22 with a 4.0 has shown that they've done well 100% of the time they've been in college. They were focused and they achieved a high GPA. The person with a lower undergrad GPA but a higher GPA in classes taken later has shown that while they are capable of maturing, it took them longer to match the level of performance of the 22 year old with the 4.0 (assuming that there were not serious reasons for the lower initial GPA -- like taking care of an ill relative, etc.)

 

[pianola]

why should med schools change their admissions process? If anything I think NTs have advantages in the application process that don't actually bear out in the performance in med school, but that's just my experience.

I tend to agree that NTs have certain advantages. Every single bit of my application that was "non-trad" only helped me get in. I was in a field totally outside of medicine, I was a little older, had several unrelated degrees.

All of these points only served as great talking points for the interview process!

I think it's legit to ask why medical schools should change their admissions process for the admittedly small numbers of NTs that apply.

 

[Repm]

the OP wasn't showing any entitlement at all

Apparently that's not the sole province of the 20 something premeds

You may have interpreted her post differently, but I stand by what I said. I think she should be careful not to let some of the attitude exhibited in her post come through in her application.

 

[njbmd]

Every step of the way I encounter roadblocks in the form of admissions process being geared completely toward people right out of college. This includes the AAMC expecting us (adults) to include financial statements from our PARENTS (mine are in their 80's) when applying for fee assistance. My parents have not fee-assisted me for a lot of years, nor are they planning to finance my medical school applications which will easily amount to over $2000.

Secondary app questions such as "if you took any time off between college and applying to medical school please give a chronological account of your activities." ...then they give you 200 or less words. This is FUNNY. This is constant. Everywhere I look there are more quizzical situations that make it either impossible for us to actually answer the question presented without a disclaimer, or it just takes ten times as long to complete an application. Twenty years of activity is a lot to account for, and it takes a lot of time to edit those activities appropriately.

I have done SO much more than your average med school applicant, and as a result was waitlisted last year with the main criticism being that there "was so much on your application the committee questioned how focused you would be able to be once in medical school"

In a sense, this is a direct result of being a person who brings diversity and accomplishment to a class, yet being discriminated against because I have lived longer and had many more experiences. How does this make me "less focused"? It is a bunch of bullcrap if you ask me. My scores and GPA's are quite competitive, however. Yes, I am changing careers, actually changed almost five years ago, and everything I've done in the meantime is about getting into med school.

this year I re-wrote my essay and made my app appear much more focused, and left out many important accomplishments in my life in order to only focus on those that point toward medical school. No one could have prepared me for this. There are no books out there to guide non-traditional applicants.

Still, the whole system is designed around 23 year olds. With roadblock after roadblock and all the in-your-face institutionalized discrimination I have faced so far, it is a miracle that any of you actually get accepted.

It is very clear to everyone around me that I would make a great doctor. The trick is learning how to put those certain things down on your application so you "appear" the way the committees want you to appear. And yes, I think it is ridiculous to give a seat to someone who is 22 and has a 4.0 the first time in college over someone older with more maturity and experience who did not do so well the first time, but has had an exceptional life and kicked ass the second time around (even more difficult to get good grades the second time around, in my opinion)

But that is not the way it is. Apparently we have to play the GAME that it is and put the stuff they want to see on the app., dumb yourself down, and don't appear too interesting or you will confuse the committee members because they just can't believe anyone can be so accomplished yet also excel in medicine, despite all evidence to the contrary.

All similar experiences welcome and anticipated...

The above wasn't my experience at all with the admissions process and wasn't the experience of other non-traditional students/physicians that I have spoken with. For me, I simply made sure that what the poster above describes as " a roadblock" was an opportunity for me to show why I would make a good physician and why I knew the process well. After all, a well-written and competitive application speaks volumes for the person who submits it. An admissions committee only has your application in front of them to evaluate and utilize to try to figure out if you would be an appropriate member of their entering class.

There was no "game" or attempts on my part to try to read the minds of the admissions committee. I simply made sure that everything that was requested of me was provided timely and accurately from my standpoint. I also did not (and still DO NOT) focus on what I perceive to be the qualifications and characteristics of people who are in my applicant pool. I am simply myself because that is the person that I know best.

I would also say to any prospective applicant to any type of medical school, definitely do not "dumb yourself down" for any reason. This is the wrong approach to achieving your goals. I would offer that you need to make SURE

• That you know the admissions process thoroughly
• That you meet and exceed every deadline
• That you know the competitiveness of your application (you don't get to read the applications of others)
• That you present yourself honestly and accurately in every aspect of your application.

With any application process, there are no guarantees or "shoo-ins" here. Some people with what looks like competitive MCAT scores and uGPAs will make fatal flaws in other parts of their application and not get into medical school on the first try. After reading literally hundreds of medical school applications, I can tell you that many people make some very basic mistakes by trying to anticipate what they believe we want to hear.

I can also say that having to reapply for medical school doesn't diminish or take anything away from your eventual medical career. Just make sure that you know the process and you optimize everything that is within your control (literally most of your application).

I wasn't successful in getting into several medical schools (above age 40) because I "dumbed myself down" but because I made sure that every part of my application was the best that it could be and represented me in the most accurate and positive manner. I can also say that fully 1/3rd of my medical school class was above the age of 30 with the oldest entering student at age 53 (he's now a very successful Family Medicine doc with his education paid for by the Public Health Service).

Literally, hundreds of non-traditional students are getting into medical school every year, graduating and going on to make good physicians. Many of them are on this website and are willing to give good advice and speak about their experiences for the benefit of others. The numbers verify and back up that being non-traditional is generally an asset rather than a "roadblock" as the OP would have you believe because he/she was apparantly not successful. I am saying that if I (definitely non-traditional) could do this, others can and do get this done.

 

[LMFAOhaha]

Every step of the way I encounter roadblocks in the form of admissions process being geared completely toward people right out of college. This includes the AAMC expecting us (adults) to include financial statements from our PARENTS (mine are in their 80's) when applying for fee assistance. My parents have not fee-assisted me for a lot of years, nor are they planning to finance my medical school applications which will easily amount to over $2000.

Secondary app questions such as "if you took any time off between college and applying to medical school please give a chronological account of your activities." ...then they give you 200 or less words. This is FUNNY. This is constant.

Didn't read the entire post. What I've come to realize is that in most cases they really just kind of overlook this information and don't take it as serious as you might think. If you really think this application is bad, try applying for a government job. I recently interviewed for a job in a forensics lab, and the application itself is, well how should I put this, is RIDICULOUS! They want to know every detail of your entire existence. Don't let something so miniscule get your blood pressure up, it's not worth it.

 

[sugaree]

The above wasn't my experience at all with the admissions process and wasn't the experience of other non-traditional students/physicians that I have spoken with. For me, I simply made sure that what the poster above describes as " a roadblock" was an opportunity for me to show why I would make a good physician and why I knew the process well. After all, a well-written and competitive application speaks volumes for the person who submits it. An admissions committee only has your application in front of them to evaluate and utilize to try to figure out if you would be an appropriate member of their entering class.

There was no "game" or attempts on my part to try to read the minds of the admissions committee. I simply made sure that everything that was requested of me was provided timely and accurately from my standpoint. I also did not (and still DO NOT) focus on what I perceive to be the qualifications and characteristics of people who are in my applicant pool. I am simply myself because that is the person that I know best.

I would also say to any prospective applicant to any type of medical school, definitely do not "dumb yourself down" for any reason. This is the wrong approach to achieving your goals. I would offer that you need to make SURE

• That you know the admissions process thoroughly
• That you meet and exceed every deadline
• That you know the competitiveness of your application (you don't get to read the applications of others)
• That you present yourself honestly and accurately in every aspect of your application.

With any application process, there are no guarantees or "shoo-ins" here. Some people with what looks like competitive MCAT scores and uGPAs will make fatal flaws in other parts of their application and not get into medical school on the first try. After reading literally hundreds of medical school applications, I can tell you that many people make some very basic mistakes by trying to anticipate what they believe we want to hear.

I can also say that having to reapply for medical school doesn't diminish or take anything away from your eventual medical career. Just make sure that you know the process and you optimize everything that is within your control (literally most of your application).

I wasn't successful in getting into several medical schools (above age 40) because I "dumbed myself down" but because I made sure that every part of my application was the best that it could be and represented me in the most accurate and positive manner. I can also say that fully 1/3rd of my medical school class was above the age of 30 with the oldest entering student at age 53 (he's now a very successful Family Medicine doc with his education paid for by the Public Health Service).

Literally, hundreds of non-traditional students are getting into medical school every year, graduating and going on to make good physicians. Many of them are on this website and are willing to give good advice and speak about their experiences for the benefit of others. The numbers verify and back up that being non-traditional is generally an asset rather than a "roadblock" as the OP would have you believe because he/she was apparantly not successful. I am saying that if I (definitely non-traditional) could do this, others can and do get this done.

Excellent and useful information!

What were the "fatal flaws" you refer to?

Agree that it is not too difficult to navigate the app process, once you learn how it all works which is not easy. I only applied to two schools the first try, was waitlisted at one, so I don't feel defeated in any way, and don't feel sour grapes, not trying to make others believe it is the fault of the system. Please don't assume you understand my motives.

There is still no doubt that the application process is geared toward people right out of college. That's fine, I can figure out how to make it work in my favor as most of us can. I have been in academia and have a couple of graduate degrees in other disciplines and stand by the observations I made that medical school application process is ultimately geared toward people right out of college as well as being tricky and political - you don't see questions on those other applications like those on med school apps. Part of the reason it appears to be so is the fact that there is such a huge increase in the numbers of applicants, qualified applicants, and that so many qualified applicants are turned away each year.

Doctors I know who went to med school 15, 20 and 30 years ago are astonished at the difference in the complicated app process and the level of competitiveness now, something they contended with on a markedly lesser scale.

During a one hour meeting I had with a committee member that became very candid, he revealed to me how after a certain point, it becomes a game of searching for reasons to rule people out when they have 300 applicants that are all outstanding and you can only take 120 - what do you do? Sub-committee members each have three candidates they LOVE and are told to pick ONE and come back to the committee with a choice. For example. An actual example. This is true for all applicants not just NT's, I understand that. It becomes a game on the back end - what did you write on the app that they can use to rule you out, and up front - how many schools do you need to apply to to beat the odds - for example GWU gets something in the neighborhood of 12,000 applications. Do you really think only 150 of those apps are qualified? You have to apply to so many schools simply because of the numbers.

Overall, I believe that potentially any NT is at a distinct advantage over any "traditional" applicant, in many ways, and hope it comes across in my application, that is the trick. Truly, I am making observations about the process, which I find extremely challenging, funny, and frustrating primarily in the financial area.

If you are like some of the others who scored 40's on their MCAT it might be different for you. Someone like me, who has GPA and scores that are just a little above the national average for matriculants, within one standard deviation of the median, you have less odds and have to find a way to make yourself stand out, and because of application inflation, apply to 20 schools or more.

 

[LeoGer]

OP, why don't you nut up and stop being such a sissy-ninny?

 

[sugaree]

OP, why don't you nut up and stop being such a sissy-ninny?

Dare I ask - WTF? Im just writing a stupid post on a message board. It's not my manifesto.

 

[sugaree]

The above wasn't my experience at all with the admissions process and wasn't the experience of other non-traditional students/physicians that I have spoken with. For me, I simply made sure that what the poster above describes as " a roadblock" was an opportunity for me to show why I would make a good physician and why I knew the process well. After all, a well-written and competitive application speaks volumes for the person who submits it. An admissions committee only has your application in front of them to evaluate and utilize to try to figure out if you would be an appropriate member of their entering class.

There was no "game" or attempts on my part to try to read the minds of the admissions committee. I simply made sure that everything that was requested of me was provided timely and accurately from my standpoint. I also did not (and still DO NOT) focus on what I perceive to be the qualifications and characteristics of people who are in my applicant pool. I am simply myself because that is the person that I know best.

I would also say to any prospective applicant to any type of medical school, definitely do not "dumb yourself down" for any reason. This is the wrong approach to achieving your goals. I would offer that you need to make SURE

• That you know the admissions process thoroughly
• That you meet and exceed every deadline
• That you know the competitiveness of your application (you don't get to read the applications of others)
• That you present yourself honestly and accurately in every aspect of your application.

With any application process, there are no guarantees or "shoo-ins" here. Some people with what looks like competitive MCAT scores and uGPAs will make fatal flaws in other parts of their application and not get into medical school on the first try. After reading literally hundreds of medical school applications, I can tell you that many people make some very basic mistakes by trying to anticipate what they believe we want to hear.

I can also say that having to reapply for medical school doesn't diminish or take anything away from your eventual medical career. Just make sure that you know the process and you optimize everything that is within your control (literally most of your application).

I wasn't successful in getting into several medical schools (above age 40) because I "dumbed myself down" but because I made sure that every part of my application was the best that it could be and represented me in the most accurate and positive manner. I can also say that fully 1/3rd of my medical school class was above the age of 30 with the oldest entering student at age 53 (he's now a very successful Family Medicine doc with his education paid for by the Public Health Service).

Literally, hundreds of non-traditional students are getting into medical school every year, graduating and going on to make good physicians. Many of them are on this website and are willing to give good advice and speak about their experiences for the benefit of others. The numbers verify and back up that being non-traditional is generally an asset rather than a "roadblock" as the OP would have you believe because he/she was apparantly not successful. I am saying that if I (definitely non-traditional) could do this, others can and do get this done.

Dare I say it is entirely possible I have more accomplishments and experiences to choose from than you did, and therefore eliminate and yes, dumb myself down is what I had to do to make a good application. Or at least that is how I feel about it, or interpret it. And so what?

 

[sugaree]

The above wasn't my experience at all with the admissions process and wasn't the experience of other non-traditional students/physicians that I have spoken with. For me, I simply made sure that what the poster above describes as " a roadblock" was an opportunity for me to show why I would make a good physician and why I knew the process well. After all, a well-written and competitive application speaks volumes for the person who submits it. An admissions committee only has your application in front of them to evaluate and utilize to try to figure out if you would be an appropriate member of their entering class.

There was no "game" or attempts on my part to try to read the minds of the admissions committee. I simply made sure that everything that was requested of me was provided timely and accurately from my standpoint. I also did not (and still DO NOT) focus on what I perceive to be the qualifications and characteristics of people who are in my applicant pool. I am simply myself because that is the person that I know best.

I would also say to any prospective applicant to any type of medical school, definitely do not "dumb yourself down" for any reason. This is the wrong approach to achieving your goals. I would offer that you need to make SURE

• That you know the admissions process thoroughly
• That you meet and exceed every deadline
• That you know the competitiveness of your application (you don't get to read the applications of others)
• That you present yourself honestly and accurately in every aspect of your application.

With any application process, there are no guarantees or "shoo-ins" here. Some people with what looks like competitive MCAT scores and uGPAs will make fatal flaws in other parts of their application and not get into medical school on the first try. After reading literally hundreds of medical school applications, I can tell you that many people make some very basic mistakes by trying to anticipate what they believe we want to hear.

I can also say that having to reapply for medical school doesn't diminish or take anything away from your eventual medical career. Just make sure that you know the process and you optimize everything that is within your control (literally most of your application).

I wasn't successful in getting into several medical schools (above age 40) because I "dumbed myself down" but because I made sure that every part of my application was the best that it could be and represented me in the most accurate and positive manner. I can also say that fully 1/3rd of my medical school class was above the age of 30 with the oldest entering student at age 53 (he's now a very successful Family Medicine doc with his education paid for by the Public Health Service).

Literally, hundreds of non-traditional students are getting into medical school every year, graduating and going on to make good physicians. Many of them are on this website and are willing to give good advice and speak about their experiences for the benefit of others. The numbers verify and back up that being non-traditional is generally an asset rather than a "roadblock" as the OP would have you believe because he/she was apparantly not successful. I am saying that if I (definitely non-traditional) could do this, others can and do get this done.

My observations have nothing to do with being or not being successful. Why do you interpret my criticism of a flawed system to be sour grapes? I can promise you I will have the same impression of this game even after I've been accepted and have to jump through more hoops for residency and the rest. Its all a game.

 

[drizzt3117]

Dare I say it is entirely possible I have more accomplishments and experiences to choose from than you did, and therefore eliminate and yes, dumb myself down is what I had to do to make a good application. Or at least that is how I feel about it, or interpret it. And so what?

Apparently adcoms didn't find the accomplishments you ended up
selecting as your best all that impressive.

 

[Lazarus]

Mr. Sugartree,

I believe you said the committee felt that you had too much going on?

+

"There is still no doubt that the application process is geared toward people right out of college. That's fine, I can figure out how to make it work in my favor as most of us can. I have been in academia and have a couple of graduate degrees in other disciplines and stand by the observations I made that medical school application process is ultimately geared toward people right out of college as well as being tricky and political - you don't see questions on those other applications like those on med school apps. Part of the reason it appears to be so is the fact that there is such a huge increase in the numbers of applicants, qualified applicants, and that so many qualified applicants are turned away each year."

Maybe they are worried you are attempting to climb another academic mountain?


I see the application as a debate in which your goal is to make it easy for them to say yes to your goal of medicine. My understanding is that a successful applicant should be able to demonstrate their passion and ability through their academic work, MCAT score, and extra curricular activities. The interview and the PS are the chance to tie all of your successes along the journey into one great picture that says yes this applicant should be a doctor. The goal of pre-med is to create those successes, and build that story.



Anywho just my thoughts, good luck.

 

[sugaree]

Mr. Sugartree,

I believe you said the committee felt that you had too much going on?

+

"There is still no doubt that the application process is geared toward people right out of college. That's fine, I can figure out how to make it work in my favor as most of us can. I have been in academia and have a couple of graduate degrees in other disciplines and stand by the observations I made that medical school application process is ultimately geared toward people right out of college as well as being tricky and political - you don't see questions on those other applications like those on med school apps. Part of the reason it appears to be so is the fact that there is such a huge increase in the numbers of applicants, qualified applicants, and that so many qualified applicants are turned away each year."

Maybe they are worried you are attempting to climb another academic mountain?


I see the application as a debate in which your goal is to make it easy for them to say yes to your goal of medicine. My understanding is that a successful applicant should be able to demonstrate their passion and ability through their academic work, MCAT score, and extra curricular activities. The interview and the PS are the chance to tie all of your successes along the journey into one great picture that says yes this applicant should be a doctor. The goal of pre-med is to create those successes, and build that story.



Anywho just my thoughts, good luck.

That's great. Great way of looking at it. And very accurate in your assessment of the school's concerns. Thank you!

Can't figure out why message board posts attract personal attacks like flies the way they do. Certainly an entire annual conference of speakers, millions of dollars spent by potential NT applicants to attend such conference to learn the "tricks" and a message board community dedicated entirely to NT applicants with hours and hours of PP presentations and speaker information would not exist if it was not necessary for NT applicants to learn how to navigate a system that is by default skewed against them at nearly every turn. None of these gyrations would be necessary if there was not a significant issue.

And then committee members post here with very welcome and sage advice yet deny the existence of prejudice and conclude that my observations MUST be a result of bitterness due to not having been successful the first time? If you ignore the issues they will never go away. Or maybe it's just easier to do your job since you can't really do anything about it, right?

I have known about the hyper-traditional attitude of the medical school scene since college and chose then not to be a part of it. But now I have changed my plans, and interestingly enough the scene has changed very little if at all in 20-some years. That's fine you just deal with it.

What HAS changed is the fact that NT applicants have become more organized, savvy, and educated to the process and how to make it work FOR them when without the right attitude and approach, it is by default designed to work against them. No question that many older students are now part of the landscape. Someone had to sit at the front of the bus at one point, and many many more do so now, but in my observation, the bus is still the same old tired traditional bus. And the people who drive the bus turn a blind eye. Eventually the bus will break down and things will change. I find the whole thing fascinating rather than upsetting.

 

[drizzt3117]

This website pretty much exists to help traditional applicants get into med school. I'm not really seeing how it's "easier" for a traditional applicant to get into med school given that they don't generally have the breadth or richness of experience of a non-trad. It's also possible to be non-trad and not have low or average stats. I found my application was much better received than I'd thought it might be, and I didn't play any games or do anything different to try to impress adcoms. My PS wasn't trying to spin anything, all I did was pretty much discuss my qualifications for a career in medicine.

As a former adcom member I don't really think getting into med school is rocket science.

academic qualifications + clear motivation + exposure to medicine + apply to an appropriate set of schools given your qualifications = acceptance.

It's not really all that complicated.

That's great. Great way of looking at it. And very accurate in your assessment of the school's concerns. Thank you!

Can't figure out why message board posts attract personal attacks like flies the way they do. Certainly an entire annual conference of speakers, millions of dollars spent by potential NT applicants to attend such conference to learn the "tricks" and a message board community dedicated entirely to NT applicants with hours and hours of PP presentations and speaker information would not exist if it was not necessary for NT applicants to learn how to navigate a system that is by default skewed against them at nearly every turn. None of these gyrations would be necessary if there was not a significant issue.

And then committee members post here with very welcome and sage advice yet deny the existence of prejudice and conclude that my observations MUST be a result of bitterness due to not having been successful the first time? If you ignore the issues they will never go away. Or maybe it's just easier to do your job since you can't really do anything about it, right?

I have known about the hyper-traditional attitude of the medical school scene since college and chose then not to be a part of it. But now I have changed my plans, and interestingly enough the scene has changed very little if at all in 20-some years. That's fine you just deal with it.

What HAS changed is the fact that NT applicants have become more organized, savvy, and educated to the process and how to make it work FOR them when without the right attitude and approach, it is by default designed to work against them. No question that many older students are now part of the landscape. Someone had to sit at the front of the bus at one point, and many many more do so now, but in my observation, the bus is still the same old tired traditional bus. And the people who drive the bus turn a blind eye. Eventually the bus will break down and things will change. I find the whole thing fascinating rather than upsetting.

 

[Namedmymember]

a system that is by default skewed against them at nearly every turn. None of these gyrations would be necessary if there was not a significant issue.

And then committee members post here with very welcome and sage advice yet deny the existence of prejudice and conclude that my observations MUST be a result of bitterness due to not having been successful the first time? If you ignore the issues they will never go away. Or maybe it's just easier to do your job since you can't really do anything about it, right?

First, you only applied to two schools? That's not a very high-yield way to get into medical school.

Second, you sound like an enormous time drain. I hope for you sake you don't come across this way in your interviews. They're looking for smart, competent problems solvers to be their students and coworkers. Not people who are going to throw a hissy fit at the smallest goddman problem. I haven't seen numbers for nontrad vs. trad so can't say for sure, but it sure doesn't seem like the system is stacked against us. It's really not that complicated or hard.

Finally, even with your ridiculous strategy of applying to only two schools you got an interview. That means you super nontrad work/school history was not a problem for the adcoms. They just didn't like your personality and the way you interviewed. Might want to chew on that for a while.

 

[Lacheln]

That's great. Great way of looking at it. And very accurate in your assessment of the school's concerns. Thank you!

Can't figure out why message board posts attract personal attacks like flies the way they do. Certainly an entire annual conference of speakers, millions of dollars spent by potential NT applicants to attend such conference to learn the "tricks" and a message board community dedicated entirely to NT applicants with hours and hours of PP presentations and speaker information would not exist if it was not necessary for NT applicants to learn how to navigate a system that is by default skewed against them at nearly every turn. None of these gyrations would be necessary if there was not a significant issue.

And then committee members post here with very welcome and sage advice yet deny the existence of prejudice and conclude that my observations MUST be a result of bitterness due to not having been successful the first time? If you ignore the issues they will never go away. Or maybe it's just easier to do your job since you can't really do anything about it, right?

I have known about the hyper-traditional attitude of the medical school scene since college and chose then not to be a part of it. But now I have changed my plans, and interestingly enough the scene has changed very little if at all in 20-some years. That's fine you just deal with it.

What HAS changed is the fact that NT applicants have become more organized, savvy, and educated to the process and how to make it work FOR them when without the right attitude and approach, it is by default designed to work against them. No question that many older students are now part of the landscape. Someone had to sit at the front of the bus at one point, and many many more do so now, but in my observation, the bus is still the same old tired traditional bus. And the people who drive the bus turn a blind eye. Eventually the bus will break down and things will change. I find the whole thing fascinating rather than upsetting.

I think I'm getting a sense of why the committee didn't feel you were focused. You don't seem consistent in your tone and point even here in one thread on SDN. For example, to Njbmd you first responded with a hearty thank you and a thoughtful response to her input, and then immediately added two more responses to the SAME post of hers that were rather hostile/condescending. It was a bit DID. You keep saying that you find the process funny/fascinating, yet your tone and language is anything but. You need to work on getting your message across, because right now it is very muddled. Tailoring your communication to your audience, aka the adcoms, is not dumbing yourself down.

 

[student1799]

... It's also possible to be non-trad and not have low or average stats. I found my application was much better received than I'd thought it might be, and I didn't play any games or do anything different to try to impress adcoms. My PS wasn't trying to spin anything, all I did was pretty much discuss my qualifications for a career in medicine.

As a former adcom member I don't really think getting into med school is rocket science.

academic qualifications + clear motivation + exposure to medicine + apply to an appropriate set of schools given your qualifications = acceptance.

It's not really all that complicated.

It's about time you came down off your high horse. I've been a member of SDN for 2 years, and for that entire time I've watched you heaping scorn on people--whether trad or non-trad--whose numbers you deemed to be "below average." (This includes me, of course. Despite the fact that I've never given out my stats on SDN, you just COMPLETELY MADE SOME UP --"a 29 MCAT and a 3.3 GPA"--and then insulted me for "having" them. As if I ever did.)

That same air of superiority, and implied insult to all your "inferiors," is very evident in your post. That's bad enough as a personality trait, but I recently discovered that you're a complete hypocrite as well, because you yourself have a "past" as far as grades are concerned.

Here is a post of yours in the "What Are My Chances?" forum from a couple of weeks ago:

I don't think 3.6/3.5 is below average, I think that's pretty close to the average for applicants. If you get above 32 you'll definitely be above average. I applied with ~3.6 cumulative and did well with the top tier. I had similar postbac performance to you (~53 units @ 4.0) but I was a non-science major so that represented the entirety of my science GPA, which I guess make things a little different (although i dunno why it should matter)

If it took 53 units at 4.0 just to get you to a 3.6 GPA, you didn't do so hot in college, did you? That's neither here nor there as far as I'm concerned, but to read your other posts, you'd think that having even a 3.6 GPA was akin to having leprosy. Yet that's exactly what YOU applied with.

Just quit the hypocrisy and admit what you already know: People who are smart and capable can still get low grades in school sometimes, for a lot of different reasons. Does that make them stupid? No. Does it mean they're incapable of succeeding academically at some point in the future? No. Does it mean they can never get into med school? No.

And now that you have in fact made it into med school, you've clearly done your best to "forget where you came from." Pretty sad, if you ask me.

 

[Lacheln]

...

I don't think 3.6/3.5 is below average, I think that's pretty close to the average for applicants. If you get above 32 you'll definitely be above average. I applied with ~3.6 cumulative and did well with the top tier. I had similar postbac performance to you (~53 units @ 4.0) but I was a non-science major so that represented the entirety of my science GPA, which I guess make things a little different (although i dunno why it should matter)

Just one comment on this that I'd like drizz to clarify. Drizz, you say you went to MIT, and if that's in fact true, then there is no way that your post-bacc represented the entirety of your sgpa. Second, if you did go to MIT, then you and I both know that a 3.6 from MIT isn't viewed the same way most 3.6's are, so it isn't a reasonable yardstick for giving advice.

 

[drizzt3117]

It's about time you came down off your high horse. I've been a member of SDN for 2 years, and for that entire time I've watched you heaping scorn on people--whether trad or non-trad--whose numbers you deemed to be "below average." (This includes me, of course. Despite the fact that I've never given out my stats on SDN, you just COMPLETELY MADE SOME UP --"a 29 MCAT and a 3.3 GPA"--and then insulted me for "having" them. As if I ever did.)

That same air of superiority, and implied insult to all your "inferiors," is very evident in your post. That's bad enough as a personality trait, but I recently discovered that you're a complete hypocrite as well, because you yourself have a "past" as far as grades are concerned.

Here is a post of yours in the "What Are My Chances?" forum from a couple of weeks ago:

If it took 53 units at 4.0 just to get you to a 3.6 GPA, you didn't do so hot in college, did you? That's neither here nor there as far as I'm concerned, but to read your other posts, you'd think that having even a 3.6 GPA was akin to having leprosy. Yet that's exactly what YOU applied with.

Interesting that you say that. If you've been following my posting history, you'll also notice that I have over 1500 posts in the postbac forum and what are my chances, many of which are helping people with low GPAs. In general, I've tried to give people the best possible advice for their situation. Sometimes that requires a dose of realism, but IMO it's better to hear it on this website than a letter from a school. I've never claimed on this site to have a perfect GPA in undergrad, nor do I think it's a prerequisite for getting into top programs. Even in the post you quoted, I said that the person's GPA wasn't below average and was competitive. I don't see how that counts as viewing it as "akin to having leprosy." My contention, if you read the previous posts on this thread, is that NTs tend to have an advantage in the admissions process regardless of GPA. That being said, as I also mentioned earlier, not all non-trads have low stats. That's a statement that's undoubtedly true, and I'm not sure what you read into it. It wasn't a slam on the OP, who mentioned in her first post that her stats were above average in any case. In any case, the points I was trying to make in this thread aren't about stats at all.

Just quit the hypocrisy and admit what you already know: People who are smart and capable can still get low grades in school sometimes, for a lot of different reasons. Does that make them stupid? No. Does it mean they're incapable of succeeding academically at some point in the future? No. Does it mean they can never get into med school? No.

I'm interested to see where I mentioned that people with low stats are stupid, or incapable of success. That being the case, people with lower stats are clearly at a disadvantage when applying to med school than applicants with higher stats. That's the entire point of the SMP/AE postbac cottage industry. Can people redeem themselves? Sure. I'm not entirely sure what you're reading into my posts. My point wasn't that high stat people are better off, although I do think that the literature bears out that they truly are. Actually the point of my posts in this thread have to do with 1) the fact that the OP thinks the system is biased against them when in fact NTs have an advantage IMO. 2) In my experience, NTs tend to underperform in med school. This is a combination of a number of factors, including the fact that the inherent advantage I mentioned in point #1 makes them competitive for higher calibers of schools than they might otherwise be, and the fact that many NTs have families and aren't "all-in" like some of their younger classmates might be. 3) For whatever reason, NTs seem more prevalent in DO schools. These are simply observations, not judgments or indictments. People have different priorities in life.

And now that you have in fact made it into med school, you've clearly done your best to "forget where you came from." Pretty sad, if you ask me.

As I mentioned before, I hang out in the postbac forum here quite a bit. I just don't really associate with NTs either here or in real life, I guess it's a cultural thing.

 

[drizzt3117]

Just one comment on this that I'd like drizz to clarify. Drizz, you say you went to MIT, and if that's in fact true, then there is no way that your post-bacc represented the entirety of your sgpa. Second, if you did go to MIT, then you and I both know that a 3.6 from MIT isn't viewed the same way most 3.6's are, so it isn't a reasonable yardstick for giving advice.

I made a post about this in postbac recently. I was an engineering major so the majority of those classes didn't contribute to my sGPA at all. You're absolutely right that a 3.6 from MIT (actually my cGPA when applying to med school was closer to 3.7, but who's counting, and 0.2 of that cGPA was from Scripps) isn't really comparable to those from other schools. Yes, I was probably being the slightest bit disingenuous with my post several above this one. Clearly with ~3.7/39 my application was going to be competitive, but what I said above was true, I didn't know exactly how well it would be received, as lots of high stat people don't really end up doing all that well. That being said, again, what I said above was true. My application was pretty much done in a traditional way, with just a bit more substance with my activities. I don't think there's a "game" you need to play being a non-trad to make yourself more appealing to adcoms. Generally you'll have a more appealing set of experiences than a traditional student. Again, I think the issue people run into is showing they have a clear reason and commitment to be doing what they're doing, rather than collecting degrees or what have you. Many non-trads think the fact that they're giving up a career to embark upon another course is proof enough of commitment but unfortunately it's not viewed that way in a vacuum.