Rocky Vista?!

[GiraffeAddict]

Why does everyone seem to hate Rocky Vista?! I have read some pretty terrible "reviews" on the interview feedback page from last year, but cannot seem to pin down any common basis. Hrrmm. Any current RVCOM students have any ideas?!

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[spence]

I think it's mostly because Rocky Vista is a for-profit institution

 

[Cp22kjer]

See the Osteopathic forum. There are numerous reasons. The school itself is probably great, the bad reviews you see are probably out of spite/disapproval due to it being a for-profit institution.

 

[TeamZissou]

For the love of whatever deity you worship. Please to a search and read. You'll notice most of the threads discussing RVU get shut down, there is a good reason for this. I'm not even going to say anything else.

 

[Bamish]

For the love of whatever deity you worship. Please to a search and read. You'll notice most of the threads discussing RVU get shut down, there is a good reason for this. I'm not even going to say anything else.

Yeah, OP you are treading on some warm ground here, keep going and you'll get the flames. I researched the school outside of SDN and posted just one negative about it and was just about burned at the stake. Heck, even a mod tried to jump on board to toss a few matches into the fire.

Research it, you may not find anything that concerns you--but if you find anything that you don't like about the school, or anything that could be a potential problem, I suppose it's best to just keep it to yourself.

Good luck!

 

[GiraffeAddict]

I realize all of this. I'm not trying to stir anything up, I just wanted some fresh opinions, as the last thing I could find was a bit dated (2007 I think). I have searched past threads and whathaveyou, but anything helps curiosity!! Thanks.

 

[ColoradoCSU]

I realize all of this. I'm not trying to stir anything up, I just wanted some fresh opinions, as the last thing I could find was a bit dated (2007 I think). I have searched past threads and whathaveyou, but anything helps curiosity!! Thanks.

Well the reason it is controversial is the politaical posturing going on. Recently a number of the board members lost their jobs as a new higher up joined the ranks who disagreed with them. If you can learn medicine without getting involved, all the power to you. If the political climate will be a barrier to getting an education, look elsewhere.

 

[Cp22kjer]

I realize all of this. I'm not trying to stir anything up, I just wanted some fresh opinions, as the last thing I could find was a bit dated (2007 I think). I have searched past threads and whathaveyou, but anything helps curiosity!! Thanks.

There are multiple threads in the Osteo forum that are less than a month old.

 

[BruceBanner]

It is mainly internal politics. You probably have read about the board of trustees getting canned and some questionable moves by the proprietor of RVU. I dont think the curriculum and students are any worse for the wear, but it is very touchy subject around here. A current RVU student came on SDN and posted some inflammatory stuff that angered the rest of the class. I would take what you read here with a grain of salt....things get magnified.

I also think the school is still very fresh and a lot remains to be seen with it's future prognosis. Buyer beware.

 

[GiraffeAddict]

There are multiple threads in the Osteo forum that are less than a month old.

I have found said posts. Thanks. As having been on sdn for only a week or so, I'm still trying to figure out the ins/outs.

 

[thethethe]

everybody who say they don't like rocky vista because they are for-profit are dumb. news flash, i dont know of any school who doesnt want to make money from their students.

my friend with a MBA was explaining this to me, for profit and non profit is just for tax purposes. other then that, all schools operate in the same way.

 

[Cp22kjer]

I have found said posts. Thanks. As having been on sdn for only a week or so, I'm still trying to figure out the ins/outs.

No prob. Hope it helped!

 

[WeenieRoast]

It is mainly internal politics. You probably have read about the board of trustees getting canned and some questionable moves by the proprietor of RVU. I dont think the curriculum and students are any worse for the wear, but it is very touchy subject around here. A current RVU student came on SDN and posted some inflammatory stuff that angered the rest of the class. I would take what you read here with a grain of salt....things get magnified.

I also think the school is still very fresh and a lot remains to be seen with it's future prognosis. Buyer beware.

A little birdie fully in the know told me it wasn't REALLY a current student. Maybe SDN should start some sort of ID verify with credit cards. Oh wait, that'd be so wrong and simply evil because SDN has a different tax status that guarantees the money trail for goods and services sold! From what I've gathered being here in Denver, RVU is primed but maybe a little on the defensive and sometimes I don't hold it against them. Hope it all works out.

I'll give it to SDN, it's entertaining and full of good information and opinions. More of us are joining here so maybe we'll have to donate. It's cheaper than going to the movies these days for drama.

 

[COMedic2Doc]

A little birdie fully in the know told me it wasn't REALLY a current student. Maybe SDN should start some sort of ID verify with credit cards. Oh wait, that'd be so wrong and simply evil because SDN has a different tax status that guarantees the money trail for goods and services sold! From what I've gathered being here in Denver, RVU is primed but maybe a little on the defensive and sometimes I don't hold it against them. Hope it all works out.

I'll give it to SDN, it's entertaining and full of good information and opinions. More of us are joining here so maybe we'll have to donate. It's cheaper than going to the movies these days for drama.

Awesome comments here. Gotta love people that are so wrapped up in themselves that they don't see the benefits of new schools at this point in time, irregardless of their profit vs. not for profit status. I'd love to hear more about what the first class thinks so far, as this is one of my schools of choice when I come home from the desert.

 

[PreMedHopeful]

I know this is a really bad question but, what do they mean for-profit, so it's like a business medical school and they just make money? Don't all med schools do that so they can pay faculty, keep up with latest medical equipment, etc?

 

[boone95]

I know this is a really bad question but, what do they mean for-profit, so it's like a business medical school and they just make money? Don't all med schools do that so they can pay faculty, keep up with latest medical equipment, etc?

You're going to get a very wide range of answers with that question. I'll start it off with my opinion, having just finished a year at RVU.
My take, is that the tax status was a legality to avoid some tax things, of which I know little about. I don't believe their intent is strictly to make money money money. If you tour the place, they'll show you all sorts of simulators, technology, etc. to show you that they're pumping money into the school, and not into a wallet of the owner.
People will link the 'for-profit' status to carribean schools, but this isn't a good connection because it's a US accredited (provisionally until the first class goes all the way through) school.
Just keep in mind that RVU's plan is to educate first and foremost, and they'll spare no expense (and haven't spared any expenses yet) in achieving that.

Good luck with applying!

 

[JW08]

I know this is a really bad question but, what do they mean for-profit, so it's like a business medical school and they just make money? Don't all med schools do that so they can pay faculty, keep up with latest medical equipment, etc?

Isn't the whole medical system in US is for profit. Hospitals take your financial information before you see a doctor (even in emergency room, unless you are dying), there are no government hospitals here in US like I have seen in some third world countries, I don't see many doctors going to FP and serve the community, instead they go to high paying specialities. I bet you anything, all these people who are critizing RVU's for profit status would chose money first when it comes to their careers.

 

[DocHomer]

Isn't the whole medical system in US is for profit. Hospitals take your financial information before you see a doctor (even in emergency room, unless you are dying), there are no government hospitals here in US like I have seen in some third world countries, I don't see many doctors going to FP and serve the community, instead they go to high paying specialities. I bet you anything, all these people who are critizing RVU's for profit status would chose money first when it comes to their careers.

Haha. I agree.

Go ahead and ditch primary care for a specialty b/c of the greater income, but how dare you you go to a for-profit institution? Why do people get so puritanical about it? I just don't get it. Just do well on your boards and everything else will take care of itself.

 

[PreMedHopeful]

exactly the whole medical system is a profitable business and adcoms and med schools know this so they start by having EXPENSIVE application fees and you might even be accepted and then the tuition and I don't even want to go on....

 

[Concubine]

The expensive application fees are pretty much limited to DO schools with a few exceptions. I definitely don't agree with RVU, but I recognize that there are good points for both sides of the debate. I encourage you to look at some past threads for both sides and make an informed decision before you apply.

 

[JanikeyDoc]

The big controversy with RVU is the fact that it is for profit and the owner is the son of the founder of a Caribbean medical school called AUC which is in St. Maarten. A lot of people in the Osteopathic community are not happy with a for profit school opening up and says its damages the reputation of Osteopathic medicine. Long ago, DOs did not have the same rights as MDs, today they are essentially equals in terms of practice rights. Part of this is the fact that DO schools like their MD brethren are fully committed to scholarly work and education.
Someone like Mr. Tien, the owner of RVU, comes along, and its makes people nervous.

 

[SaharaGirl]

The big controversy with RVU is the fact that it is for profit and the owner is the son of the founder of a Caribbean medical school called AUC which is in St. Maarten. A lot of people in the Osteopathic community are not happy with a for profit school opening up and says its damages the reputation of Osteopathic medicine. Long ago, DOs did not have the same rights as MDs, today they are essentially equals in terms of practice rights. Part of this is the fact that DO schools like their MD brethren are fully committed to scholarly work and education.
Someone like Mr. Tien, the owner of RVU, comes along, and its makes people nervous.

Isn't the Accreditation institution full of knowledgeable DOs and respected members of Osteopathic community. If they are willing to give RVU accreditation, why are the others getting nervous?
isn't AUC one of Big 4 carribean med schools?

 

[MossPoh]

Someone mentioned hospitals taking financial information and being for profit. It is a little different. You have to take money to pay for overhead. You don't have many hospitals that are trying to impress investors. They might try to convince someone to donate tons of money, but in a perfect world that money isn't supposed to be pocketed. The worry with a for-profit school is more of the storm clouds overhead. Whenever other people's money is involved, they like to have their demands catered to. People worry that shortcuts will eventually be taken to meet demands or that certain ethical concerns, like pharm reps on campus and other conflicts-of-interest will happen in an effort to meet the demands of the profit. They have a lot more incentive to fudge on the little things in the long run than a school that receives state funding or has no obligation to investors. Will it happen? Who the hell knows. I'm sure people there will get a fine education and I can perfectly understand why some people would want to go there. It just feels like a very thin line. If that line is crossed then serious drama will happen. Public perception means a lot in medicine. The media likes to hone in on anything that is associated with their healthcare and that requires a great deal of trust.

 

[mstudentrvu]

RVU is a JOKE. Sorry for all the people who are going there you will soon see why.

 

[boone95]

RVU is a JOKE. Sorry for all the people who are going there you will soon see why.

Anyone going there will get a great education. I guess that's kinda funny?

 

[paramediclizard]

IMO tax status refers to the public not having to pay for any of my education.
But I guess I'm just a dumb student who goes to RVU and will soon find out why it is so bad!?!

 

[endocardium]

I don't think being for-profit is inherently evil, or anything. I can think of several not-for-profit organizations that might qualify as worse. I'm okay with giving RVU a chance, like any new organization. Perhaps we are unjustly pointing the finger at RVU, sort of like saying that it's guilty before it even had a chance to go to trial. Let's see where it goes.

Really, the problem is with organizational expansion beyond it's capacity to do so. I think that's what the AOA is doing. I'm more in favor of growth in terms of ensuring quality rather than quality at this junction. I would love to see an independent report on the state of medical schools. Maybe it's time again.

 

[235750]

Anyone going there will get a great education. I guess that's kinda funny?

I promised myself I wouldn't click on any more RVU stuff but I couldn't help myself...

Great education huh? Other for-profit universities besides the Caribbean are the University of Phoenix, DeVry University, and Strayer University. I'm sure you've all see one of these on late night TV. Great company to keep

OK now I'm done with RVU, it's all been said before, look it up on the osteo forums.

Also, if you work at a hospital try talking to a PD about RVU. Those are the people who will eventually be making the decision about where you'll match, so their opinion is worth something unlike most SDN comments.

 

[paramediclizard]

Great education huh?

Also, if you work at a hospital try talking to a PD about RVU. Those are the people who will eventually be making the decision about where you'll match, so their opinion is worth something unlike most SDN comments.

I love Dr Still too. That is why, like him, I trust myself to break new ground even when it seems like you are having to fight everyone for what you believe in. I learned that from my 1st semester with Dr Gish teaching us about the history of osteopathic medicine and what Still and others after him fought against for what they believe in.

BTW, I do work in a hospital...the teaching one here in Denver/Aurora. I have talked to some PD's here. NONE have advised me to go elsewhere. ALL support my decision. That's the facts, at least from my point of view.

 

[WeenieRoast]

BTW, I do work in a hospital...the teaching one here in Denver/Aurora. I have talked to some PD's here. NONE have advised me to go elsewhere. ALL support my decision. That's the facts, at least from my point of view.

I'm in the hospital systems here as well. I would suggest people find out what's being recommended by PDs and other physicians since it's fact that Health One as well as Centura have pulled out of RVU clinical training agreements (rotations). It's not merely rumor anymore. That's significant in my opinion and all I know really. I hate to see this happening but denial isn't going to change things soon enough...

 

[Gute]

That is why, like him, I trust myself to break new ground even when it seems like you are having to fight everyone for what you believe in.

So you believe in the value of an education of a for-profit institution? Your school is a slap in the face to the revolutionary findings of the Flexner Report which helped to bring medical education to its current position of high quality.

 

[paramediclizard]

So you believe in the value of an education of a for-profit institution? Your school is a slap in the face to the revolutionary findings of the Flexner Report which helped to bring medical education to its current position of high quality.

Yup and I don't buy into a report that was mounted 99 years ago, as far as the for profit **** (which is the only part that folks like you refer to over and over ad nauseum). I'm pretty sure that tax laws were different 100 years ago.

The parts about teaching from a evidence based, medicalized and scientific knowledge base still applies. He refered to schools that taught over 2 years and didn't include lab or dissection. RVU, like everyother accredidted school today is 4 years with lab and dissection (dissection lead by the very well respected Dr Walter Buck, PhD, chair of the Division of Structural Medicine).

From what I can tell, Flexner hated the osteopathic profession as a whole. He thought is was not scientific based.

It is also funny that the same argument doesn't apply to PNWU or other schools not attached to a university (or ones like LMU that attached to a liberal college for convience sake). No one seems to haze them the way we get hazed.

RVU follows the same standard as your, or any other medical school out there. Do your research. RVU has had ZERO deficiencies during is provisional accrediation process to date.

Times change. Time will tell. Until that time, you are allowed your opinion and I am allowed mine. I know I am getting a top notch education, and some day you may realize it when we are working next to each other and you ask me where I went to school. Until that time, peace.

 

[Gute]

Yup and I don't buy into a report that was mounted 99 years ago, as far as the for profit **** (which is the only part that folks like you refer to over and over ad nauseum). I'm pretty sure that tax laws were different 100 years ago.

The parts about teaching from a evidence based, medicalized and scientific knowledge base still applies. He refered to schools that taught over 2 years and didn't include lab or dissection. RVU, like everyother accredidted school today is 4 years with lab and dissection (dissection lead by the very well respected Dr Walter Buck, PhD, chair of the Division of Structural Medicine).

From what I can tell, Flexner hated the osteopathic profession as a whole. He thought is was not scientific based.

It is also funny that the same argument doesn't apply to PNWU or other schools not attached to a university (or ones like LMU that attached to a liberal college for convience sake). No one seems to haze them the way we get hazed.

RVU follows the same standard as your, or any other medical school out there. Do your research. RVU has had ZERO deficiencies during is provisional accrediation process to date.

Times change. Time will tell. Until that time, you are allowed your opinion and I am allowed mine. I know I am getting a top notch education, and some day you may realize it when we are working next to each other and you ask me where I went to school. Until that time, peace.

So you brush off the report as ancient nonsense, but then try to defend your school as following some of the major recommendations of the Flexner Report (other than being for-profit of course!)? And who cares if Flexner hated osteopathic medicine? That was so long ago and the practice of medicine (allo and osteo) was much different. However, the main findings of Flexner still dictate how medical education operates today and thus apply to both allo and osteo schools.

I'm sorry, but the Flexner Report is still valid in many respects to this day. Obviously RVU meets many of the standards Flexner proposed because of accreditation purposes (or else it would be closed), but the school is still new and there will still be questions around it. The fact that it (and many other DO schools as you mentioned) isn't a part of a larger institution is very troubling.

 

[hussamdein]

So you believe in the value of an education of a for-profit institution? Your school is a slap in the face to the revolutionary findings of the Flexner Report which helped to bring medical education to its current position of high quality.

I don't know much about RVU (or osteopathic medical schools in general), but your post reminded me of an article I read a few days ago. You may find it interesting.

http://www.jaoa.org/cgi/content/full/108/8/366

 

[Gute]

I don't know much about RVU (or osteopathic medical schools in general), but your post reminded me of an article I read a few days ago. You may find it interesting.

http://www.jaoa.org/cgi/content/full/108/8/366

I really liked this quote from Flexner that the article cited:

Such exploitation of medical education is strangely inconsistent with the social aspects of medical practice...the medical profession is an organ differentiated by society for its highest purposes, not a business to be exploited.

Medicine is a profession and the schools that educate medical professionals need to be beacons of inspiration for the profession. They can do this a variety of ways by being centers of medical research, serving the needy of the community, and providing quality education. The for-profit model does not fit this professional ideal as it goes completely opposite since as that article states, if such goals are pursued with full intent (as non-profit schools do), profits will become non-existent and the owners will have no incentive to keep the school operating.

 

[235750]

I'm in the hospital systems here as well. I would suggest people find out what's being recommended by PDs and other physicians since it's fact that Health One as well as Centura have pulled out of RVU clinical training agreements (rotations).

Wow paramediclizard did you know about this?? Added with the board of directors quitting, this is horrible. Those were your (RVU's) biggest sites. Knowing this, why would you ever recommend someone go to RVU??

Honestly I am not trying to bad mouth the students at RVU, I just want pre-meds who are applying to medical school to NOT CONSIDER RVU! There are so many medical schools in this country to consider. If you want a rural-ish location (Parker's not really rural or in a city) then check out programs at TCOM (ranked by US News as one of the top 10 best med schools for primary care) or NSU.

I love Dr Still too. That is why, like him, I trust myself to break new ground even when it seems like you are having to fight everyone for what you believe in.

Laugh Out Loud, yes, you and your school's creator are just like Dr. Still. What's next a comparison to Jesus? You are being crucified in a public forum. Your "new ground" is making a profit from students...not incredible noble.

Or original for that matter. You're not breaking new ground...it's called the Caribbean model.

As weenie roast said, how can you keep deluding yourself like this?

 

[235750]

From what I can tell, Flexner hated the osteopathic profession as a whole. He thought is was not scientific based.

he was critical of all medicine, and for good reason. Over half of all MD schools were closed so he didn't seem to be too enthusiastic with anyone for that matter

And several DO schools like CCOM and PCOM passed the Flexner scrutiny. So, you can't dismiss the report as an attack on all osteopathic schools

I don't buy into a report that was mounted 99 years ago

Most of modern medicine is eternally grateful for the Flexner report and how it helped to fix the decline of medicine. If it wasn't for his report, we'd still be known as bone setters, probably no different than chiropractors. And the foundations of medical education today stem from that report

 

[Instatewaiter]

I'm in the hospital systems here as well. I would suggest people find out what's being recommended by PDs and other physicians since it's fact that Health One as well as Centura have pulled out of RVU clinical training agreements (rotations). It's not merely rumor anymore. That's significant in my opinion and all I know really. I hate to see this happening but denial isn't going to change things soon enough...

This is one of the things I said last year when RVU supporters were talking about their solid clinical sites. Until a class has actually done rotations at the site, you cannot say for certain it is locked in.

This goes for any new school: You can't tell the kind of education you are going to get until at least a class has gone through it. For any new school, buyer beware!

 

[paramediclizard]

he was critical of all medicine, and for good reason. Over half of all MD schools were closed so he didn't seem to be too enthusiastic with anyone for that matter

And several DO schools like CCOM and PCOM passed the Flexner scrutiny. So, you can't dismiss the report as an attack on all osteopathic schools



Most of modern medicine is eternally grateful for the Flexner report and how it helped to fix the decline of medicine. If it wasn't for his report, we'd still be known as bone setters, probably no different than chiropractors. And the foundations of medical education today stem from that report

Next time you quote me, don't take me out of context.

I'm done arguing this again, I have better things to do with my time. You guys take care. See you around.

 

[mstudentrvu]

I think people who read my previous post took it as me saying I'm against it because its a for-profit institution. I just meant that its a joke because of allegations of favoritism, administrative and financial aid problems, students caught cheating last semester were not reprimanded, and various other problems everyone will soon find out about. All I'm saying is be informed and ask a lot of questions. You're paying a lot to go here and it would suck to get screwed over.

 

[bioman2006]

.

 

[bioman2006]

.

 

[Handy388]

Next time you quote me, don't take me out of context.

I'm done arguing this again, I have better things to do with my time. You guys take care. See you around.

sorry to hear about you guys losing your main clincial core sites. I hope at least your class manage to find something.

to other premeds, don't go to a school without solid clincial sites.

 

[Gute]

Next time you quote me, don't take me out of context.

I'm done arguing this again, I have better things to do with my time. You guys take care. See you around.

He didn't take your remark out of context. He was refuting points you clearly made.

Is everybody they let into your school so dense? Way to go, for-profit.

 

[paramediclizard]

My main objection to RVU is that they have an obligation to satisfy a group of investors before the students' or faculty's interest. If RVU were run by the University of Colorado System or some non-profit education board, and if I were a much younger collegian pre-med, then I would've considered applying there some day.

No investors, no stock...read the rvu website

 

[paramediclizard]

sorry to hear about you guys losing your main clincial core sites. I hope at least your class manage to find something.

to other premeds, don't go to a school without solid clincial sites.

As is typical on SDN, things get blown out of proportion. Including this information that was given by a student who doesn't even go to school there. Don't worry about us, we will manage to find solid clinical sites. The deans are commited to it.

 

[paramediclizard]

He didn't take your remark out of context. He was refuting points you clearly made.

Is everybody they let into your school so dense? Way to go, for-profit.

Dense or dunce...I'm not sure. Again time will tell.

 

[paramediclizard]

I think people who read my previous post took it as me saying I'm against it because its a for-profit institution. I just meant that its a joke because of allegations of favoritism, administrative and financial aid problems, students caught cheating last semester were not reprimanded, and various other problems everyone will soon find out about. All I'm saying is be informed and ask a lot of questions. You're paying a lot to go here and it would suck to get screwed over.

I took your previous post that "RVU is a JOKE and everyone going there will soon see why " as just that. I think that anyone who attends a university and then calls it a joke in an annonymous public forum is a joke, especially with a lenghty 3 post history to their handle. Personally I feel sorry for you for attending a school (as your handle claims) you don't believe in. But don't feel sorry for me, I'm good (or maybe just dense as gute said).

I personally can't wait to hear about the 'various problems everyone will soon find out about.' Look forward to seeing you in 3 weeks or so. Enjoy the rest of your break.

Liz

 

[WeenieRoast]

InStateWait has a point with his/her comments.

I'd say the problems are ongoing based on recent accounts. I wouldn't discredit those of us that are also working in the Denver hospital systems either because of emotion or denial. I'm not trying to make matters worse by any means. This is the word among professionals in the hospitals here in the area - without a doubt Health One and Centura are off the table and that information is easily confirmed with minimal effort. Will they come back "onboard"? Who knows but likely not in the near future.

"Committed" and "able" are two drastically different things. The RVU interim administration may be committed but they have no way of forcing hospital systems to re-instate the clinical training agreements that were recently rejected after it would appear that the intent of the school isn't as noble as advertised initially (read into that what you will but that info is out there as well). I'd suggest finding out all the details independently.

Otherwise, just . That's all that can be done now.

I'll leave you all to the discussion but I thought it important to chime in being a CO native. It's an unfortunate situation all the way around, really. I wish you all the best in light.

 

[paramediclizard]

InStateWait has a point with his/her comments.

I'd say the problems are ongoing based on recent accounts. I wouldn't discredit those of us that are also working in the Denver hospital systems either because of emotion or denial. I'm not trying to make matters worse by any means. This is the word among professionals in the hospitals here in the area - without a doubt Health One and Centura are off the table and that information is easily confirmed with minimal effort. Will they come back "onboard"? Who knows but likely not in the near future.

"Committed" and "able" are two drastically different things. The RVU interim administration may be committed but they have no way of forcing hospital systems to re-instate the clinical training agreements that were recently rejected after it would appear that the intent of the school isn't as noble as advertised initially (read into that what you will but that info is out there as well). I'd suggest finding out all the details independently.

Otherwise, just . That's all that can be done now.

I'll leave you all to the discussion but I thought it important to chime in being a CO native. It's an unfortunate situation all the way around, really. I wish you all the best in light.

For the record, neither HealthOne or Centura are 'off the table'. In fact, Centura never went anywhere according to my latest talk with the Dean. And HealthOne is in the midst of communicating with RVU regarding clerkships. That's the latest from the Dean. The 1st and 2nd years will all find out the latest developments that occured over the summer in a short 3 weeks.

Thank you for the best wishes. Good luck to you as well. Take care!