Rosalind Franklin

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Can a bottle be apart of a round? Then can I take it home with me?

Obviously...

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I'm a big believer in intent. And I doubt anyone uses "Rosy" (when referring to the med school) in the same way her male colleagues did.

Just like Ellen did not mean to post an image that is scarily similar to slave-owners riding their slaves. But that's another ridiculous story...
 
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I surprised that someone hasn't demanded yet that WashU, GWU and Jefferson change their names because the two presidents were slave owners. There's some town in CA that people wanted the name changed on the same pretext.
Well, that just opened up a can of worms haha

There's a statue in Santa Fe that used the word "Savages" to describe American Indians when it was built (many, many moons ago). They erected a plaque asking people not to judge the use of such terms out of historical context, and then they physically removed the little rectangle of granite where the word was. I mean, I know that's an offensive word, but I still thought the lengths they went to erase it from history were a little extreme.

Not likening RF to this at all, btw.
My very conservative father has always told me that the word "savage" being removed was vandalism by "some hippie out to be a martyr for the politically correct" when I was growing up in New Mexico. I've always believed this to be the case because he was alive when it happened. It would be quite interesting to find out that it was removed by an organized effort. In more recent times (this year), people have called for the University of New Mexico to change their seal as well due to the fact that it displays a conquistador. Needless to say, it's a very touchy subject in New Mexico.
 
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This thread is ridiculous. Wiki says she didn't want to be called Rosy because her great aunt was named Rosy. That's it. We know now. I don't get why this offends you so much. People call it Rosy Franklin medical school because it's short. Nicknames are common. No one does it with ill intent.
 
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Guys please, I can't do it anymore. This thread has surpassed my expectations and now I very much enjoy the debauchery going on. I will now pay for you all to come out to CA and stay at my house.

@freak7 @leonardoson let's go to a bar, drinking at home is no fun. I'll pick up the first round.

1) Drinking at home is a blast when paired with YouTube
2) I like sitting at home and grumbling at the Internet
3) sounds fun, see you in CA.
 
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Well, that just opened up a can of worms haha


My very conservative father has always told me that the word "savage" being removed was vandalism by "some hippie out to be a martyr for the politically correct" when I was growing up in New Mexico. I've always believed this to be the case because he was alive when it happened. It would be quite interesting to find out that it was removed by an organized effort. In more recent times (this year), people have called for the University of New Mexico to change their seal as well due to the fact that it displays a conquistador. Needless to say, it's a very touchy subject in New Mexico.

New Mexico is an interesting place. My wife is from there and has told me a lot about the racial tensions that exist between the American Indians, Mexicans, and Spanish.
 
New Mexico is an interesting place. My wife is from there and has told me a lot about the racial tensions that exist between the American Indians, Mexicans, and Spanish.
There's a Spanish presence in NM?
 
Yep. A non-trivial one too. They do NOT get along with the Mexican population.
Huh, you learn something new every day. How odd though, I'm Mexican and I seem to get along with Spaniards just fine.
 
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Huh, you learn something new every day. How odd though, I'm Mexican and I seem to get along with Spaniards just fine.

I take it you're not a gang banger. My info is all from my wife, but she grew up in Santa Fe. At least up there, there is a lot of gang violence based on ethnicity between American Indians, Mexicans, and Spaniards.
 
I take it you're not a gang banger. My info is all from my wife, but she grew up in Santa Fe. At least up there, there is a lot of gang violence based on ethnicity between American Indians, Mexicans, and Spaniards.
Nope, not a gangbanger. I can't imagine that EC would look too great on my AMCAS app.

Yeah when you throw gangs into the equation, the racial tension makes a bit more sense.
 
Damn, I also drink at home. Although I do go to the bars with coworkers/friends sometimes...when walking is an option.

Oh I googled, and nothing lead me to believe it is because of sexism. Keep staying up a top your high horse of morality, you are better than all of us.

There is no high horse. Sorry that you feel as if you are/being placed into a lower level of "morality".
Here is the sexism: the context. You seem to miss the importance of context, and why there is a difference between the nicknames @Matthew9Thirtyfive talks about below and the type OP refers to (or any sort of derogatory nicknames towards those historically oppressed). Some nicknames are mean or are insensitive, such as the ones listed below. Some go beyond just being insensitive- they are used to continue a pattern of oppression of a stereotype of people.
My call sign is "blanks" after my vasectomy. Had a buddy at my last command whose call sign was "half-sack" until they made us change it to "uno" because he only had one testicle (he had testicular cancer and had one removed). I've also had some nicknames I personally didn't care for that I won't post on here. You get over it.

If you did actually Google the topic, you will quite plainly see that the nickname refers to something often recalled by 25 year old Watson in his book, Double Helix. Everyone else in there gets referred to by their name, except for Rosalind, who was referred to as "Rosy". Not only did he make snide remarks about her unlady-like appearance (paraphrase: she looked like she could have been pretty if she tried, but never took time to look feminine and was clearly just raised by her parents to get a career) but he also commented on how she was basically in their way the whole time, a data hoarder. That she was supposed to act like an assistant, not someone like himself- and he was very offended that she did not. His accounts of her were so harsh that even Crick and Wilkins were uncomfortable with how he spoke of her.

In the book Rosalind Franklin, the author comments that Rosalind did not go by Rosy at all, and it was only a nickname she earned behind her back at work.

All of this is within the context that Rosalind was scammed out of her data, a partial claim to the Nobel Prize, and all while given a bad name while just acting in a manner, that, if she were a man, would be expected. It has been well established by numerous sources besides just sociologists (scientists, etc), that Rosalind was treated in a very sexist way. And for the time period, it makes sense- it has context.

So why am I still beating this horse? Does it matter that pre-meds and others call the school Rosy? Are they perpetuating sexism? No, because they are just using a name out of convenience, but are just ignorant. I took OP's message as a PSA (yes, I agree OP was annoyed, but I don't care...OP was not accusing everyone o being terrible sexist pigs, etc) and found it ironic that we have gone to the lengths of naming a school after her but continue such an awkward nickname. I will never use it again (or try not to).

However, since OP opened up a can of worms with some poorly worded initial posts (sorry OP), it became another "let's try to group all people that care about historically oppressed groups all as SJW!!!".

The fact that @leonardoson is unwilling to understand the context of what OP is saying and dismiss it entirely is just as ridiculous as saying anyone who calls the school Rosy is a sexist- a charge, which, by the way, OP never made. And the fact that you cannot believe that any of the original nickname has anything to do with sexism leads me to believe that you are, at best, dense, young, stubborn and never experienced anything that would encourage you to think about these things more openly and moderately, or at worst, someone who has hints of misogynistic behavior that makes you feel uncomfortable when other actual sexism is discussed.

This is why I continue the conversation. Not for the actual topic at hand, which I feel like has been MORE than adequately covered, but to pinpoint the underlying tones that I think should be addressed.

Also I'm working over a 12 hour day, so I'm grumpy.
 
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Huh, you learn something new every day. How odd though, I'm Mexican and I seem to get along with Spaniards just fine.
In New Mexico, there's Spanish families that have lived in the same place for 400 years. In essence, more American than the descendants of the pilgrims. They get very upset about getting lumped in with the Mexican population and labeled as immigrants and basically denounced by every other group. I'm sure there's more to the tension than that (and I'm naive to much of it being a gringo), but again, it just goes to show how strange of a place New Mexico is.

I can tell you one thing though, I wouldn't trade being from New Mexico for anything.
 
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Also in reference to things like the Sante Fe plaque, it bothers me so damn badly when we change things that are HISTORICAL just to be politically correct. Not sure where that line is drawn in my mind, though- like how recent/old it can be in order to justify keeping/getting rid of it.

I hate how n***** got many books that are historical in trouble, like Huck Finn, etc. Isn't it MUCH better for our kids to LEARN that these things happened? That slavery affected people- how racism affected people back then?

If you teach this stuff in context (not just letting them read about it as if it is acceptable behavior), then surely they will have a much better sense of the entire topic.

This is why Mount and Blade: Warband is one of my all-time favorite video games. You can be a female army leader in it, but it isn't equal. As the woman, you are treated poorly by the factions and it takes a LOT longer and more work to get to the same point a male character would. I greatly prefer this over crap like Jessica Jones, that pretends that there is no consequence or hindrance by being gay, female, transgendered, a minority race in America, etc.

However, this is also why Star Trek is one of my favorite things, because it takes place so so far into the future that it is feasible that oppressed groups are not oppressed at all anymore (and also why Jean-Luc is my favorite captain).

Be real. But also recognize how you can better your actions to continue the long, hard fight against unfair treatment in any way.
 
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Damn, I also drink at home. Although I do go to the bars with coworkers/friends sometimes...when walking is an option.



There is no high horse. Sorry that you feel as if you are/being placed into a lower level of "morality".
Here is the sexism: the context. You seem to miss the importance of context, and why there is a difference between the nicknames @Matthew9Thirtyfive talks about below and the type OP refers to (or any sort of derogatory nicknames towards those historically oppressed). Some nicknames are mean or are insensitive, such as the ones listed below. Some go beyond just being insensitive- they are used to continue a pattern of oppression of a stereotype of people.


If you did actually Google the topic, you will quite plainly see that the nickname refers to something often recalled by 25 year old Watson in his book, Double Helix. Everyone else in there gets referred to by their name, except for Rosalind, who was referred to as "Rosy". Not only did he make snide remarks about her unlady-like appearance (paraphrase: she looked like she could have been pretty if she tried, but never took time to look feminine and was clearly just raised by her parents to get a career) but he also commented on how she was basically in their way the whole time, a data hoarder. That she was supposed to act like an assistant, not someone like himself- and he was very offended that she did not. His accounts of her were so harsh that even Crick and Wilkins were uncomfortable with how he spoke of her.

In the book Rosalind Franklin, the author comments that Rosalind did not go by Rosy at all, and it was only a nickname she earned behind her back at work.

All of this is within the context that Rosalind was scammed out of her data, a partial claim to the Nobel Prize, and all while given a bad name while just acting in a manner, that, if she were a man, would be expected. It has been well established by numerous sources besides just sociologists (scientists, etc), that Rosalind was treated in a very sexist way. And for the time period, it makes sense- it has context.

So why am I still beating this bush? Does it matter that pre-meds and others call the school Rosy? Are they perpetuating sexism? No, because they are just using a name out of convenience, but are just ignorant. I took OP's message as a PSA (yes, I agree OP was annoyed, but I don't care...OP was not accusing everyone o being terrible sexist pigs, etc) and found it ironic that we have gone to the lengths of naming a school after her but continue such an awkward nickname. I will never use it again (or try not to).

However, since OP opened up a can of worms with some poorly worded initial posts (sorry OP), it became another "let's try to group all people that care about historically oppressed groups all as SJW!!!".

The fact that @leonardoson is unwilling to understand the context of what OP is saying and dismiss it entirely is just as ridiculous as saying anyone who calls the school Rosy is a sexist- a charge, which, by the way, OP never made. And the fact that you cannot believe that any of the original nickname has anything to do with sexism leads me to believe that you are, at best, dense, young, stubborn and never experienced anything that would encourage you to think about these things more openly and moderately, or at worst, someone who has hints of misogynistic behavior that makes you feel uncomfortable when other actual sexism is discussed.

This is why I continue the conversation. Not for the actual topic at hand, which I feel like has been MORE than adequately covered, but to pinpoint the underlying tones that I think should be addressed.

Also I'm working over a 12 hour day, so I'm grumpy.

"You've angered the Picard and we may all suffer for it"
tumblr_o295olOQvB1rt0vtlo1_540.jpg
 
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Also in reference to things like the Sante Fe plaque, it bothers me so damn badly when we change things that are HISTORICAL just to be politically correct. Not sure where that line is drawn in my mind, though- like how recent/old it can be in order to justify keeping/getting rid of it.

I hate how n***** got many books that are historical in trouble, like Huck Finn, etc. Isn't it MUCH better for our kids to LEARN that these things happened? That slavery affected people- how racism affected people back then?

If you teach this stuff in context (not just letting them read about it as if it is acceptable behavior), then surely they will have a much better sense of the entire topic.

This is why Mount and Blade: Warband is one of my all-time favorite video games. You can be a female army leader in it, but it isn't equal. As the woman, you are treated poorly by the factions and it takes a LOT longer and more work to get to the same point a male character would. I greatly prefer this over crap like Jessica Jones, that pretends that there is no consequence or hindrance by being gay, female, transgendered, a minority race in America, etc.

However, this is also why Star Trek is one of my favorite things, because it takes place so so far into the future that it is feasible that oppressed groups are not oppressed at all anymore (and also why Jean-Luc is my favorite captain).

Be real. But also recognize how you can better your actions to continue the long, hard fight against unfair treatment in any way.
Well, I looked it up some more, and it appears that the Santa Fe deal was an act of one person acting alone. So at least that instance wasn't an organized effort to "forget" history.

Back to the main topic of this thread, I hold Rosalind Franklin in the highest regard possible, and feel that it's a travesty that she wasn't included in the Nobel Prize that was awarded. With that being said, I've referred to the institution as "Rosy" for quite some time, unaware that such a disdain for the term by Rosalind Franklin even existed. It was not disrespect, it was just shorthand.
 
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Back to the main topic of this thread, I hold Rosalind Franklin in the highest regard possible, and feel that it's a travesty that she wasn't included in the Nobel Prize that was awarded. With that being said, I've referred to the institution as "Rosy" for quite some time, unaware that such a disdain for the term by Rosalind Franklin even existed. It was not disrespect, it was just shorthand.

Yeah I mean she only TOOK THE FREAKING PICTURE
 
Well, I looked it up some more, and it appears that the Santa Fe deal was an act of one person acting alone. So at least that instance wasn't an organized effort to "forget" history.

Back to the main topic of this thread, I hold Rosalind Franklin in the highest regard possible, and feel that it's a travesty that she wasn't included in the Nobel Prize that was awarded. With that being said, I've referred to the institution as "Rosy" for quite some time, unaware that such a disdain for the term by Rosalind Franklin even existed. It was not disrespect, it was just shorthand.
Yeah, unfortunately there are plenty of times where there have been organized efforts...oof. Ray Bradbury would be in shock (or not, lol).

I knooow.
We know. We all feel that way (or most of us). :p

UGH. I can't believe Watson was trying to sell his Nobel Prize INSTEAD OF GIVING IT TO THE FRANKLIN FAMILY WTF. :boom:
 
Yeah I mean she only TOOK THE FREAKING PICTURE
X-RAY CRYSTALLOGRAPHY IS SO EASY YOU JUST SET IT UP AND BAM THERE'S A PICTURE. CERTAINLY NOT YEARS OF METHODOLOGICAL SET UP OR EXPERIMENTS TO GO INTO THAT

SO EASY ANYONE CAN DO IT
EXCEPT FOR WATSON

one time someone brought this up to me, laughing, thinking I would as well as a biophysicist, and i almost hit them.
 
So my PI did his post-doc at Berkeley, and his advisor's advisor was Watson and I have been told Watson was a crazy lunatic. Apparently I've been told he said Africans were less intelligent human beings AND women shouldn't be in the workplace so I guess all his actions make sense.
 
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So my PI did his post-doc at Berkeley, and his advisor's advisor was Watson and I have been told Watson was a crazy lunatic. Apparently I've been told he said Africans were less intelligent human beings AND women shouldn't be in the workplace so I guess all his actions make sense.
Yes, yes, and yes.

Weird guy.

also i have never understood the hatred of women in the scientific workplace. i would think it would be like YES PLEASE PUT SOME LADIES IN HERE DAMMIT, but i guess some men's fragile egos are too fragile.
 
Yeah I mean she only TOOK THE FREAKING PICTURE
Just to be accurate: Rosalind's assistant, Gosling, took Picture 51. However, she was his supervisor and primary investigator of the project in London. :)
 
Just to be accurate: Rosalind's assistant, Gosling, took Picture 51. However, she was his supervisor and primary investigator of the project in London. :)
Yeah but who wrote all the grant proposals? :laugh:
 
One of my favorite writers is William Least-Heat Moon. In his classic book Blue Highways he wrote of having lunch at a restaurant in new Mexico and seated at one table were an African-American, A Hispanic and a Native American. "What a litany of complaint"! he thought.

New Mexico is an interesting place. My wife is from there and has told me a lot about the racial tensions that exist between the American Indians, Mexicans, and Spanish.
 
Damn, I also drink at home. Although I do go to the bars with coworkers/friends sometimes...when walking is an option.



There is no high horse. Sorry that you feel as if you are/being placed into a lower level of "morality".
Here is the sexism: the context. You seem to miss the importance of context, and why there is a difference between the nicknames @Matthew9Thirtyfive talks about below and the type OP refers to (or any sort of derogatory nicknames towards those historically oppressed). Some nicknames are mean or are insensitive, such as the ones listed below. Some go beyond just being insensitive- they are used to continue a pattern of oppression of a stereotype of people.


If you did actually Google the topic, you will quite plainly see that the nickname refers to something often recalled by 25 year old Watson in his book, Double Helix. Everyone else in there gets referred to by their name, except for Rosalind, who was referred to as "Rosy". Not only did he make snide remarks about her unlady-like appearance (paraphrase: she looked like she could have been pretty if she tried, but never took time to look feminine and was clearly just raised by her parents to get a career) but he also commented on how she was basically in their way the whole time, a data hoarder. That she was supposed to act like an assistant, not someone like himself- and he was very offended that she did not. His accounts of her were so harsh that even Crick and Wilkins were uncomfortable with how he spoke of her.

I never said the nickname was anything but inappropriate in reference to the person Rosalind Franklin. What I said was that getting so butthurt over the use of a nickname for a medical school under the guise that you are some savior of women (using a bit of hyperbole here) is a bit over the top.

And I said that I was called nicknames I did not appreciate and wouldn't post, but if you'd like, I can. My last name is very Jewish, and I was Orthodox for a while before converting to Christianity. Even though I am Jewish only by blood now, I have continued to attract nicknames such as "The Jew," "The Banker," and "Jew-Boi," with the occasional "****" thrown in. If these people were more well read, I'm sure Shylock would have stuck a long time ago. These names are mostly not terms of endearment (there are a couple people with whom I am on such good terms that we could call each other any name under the sun and not get offended), and yet they persist. And yet somehow, I am able to leave work at the end of the day, go home to my family, and be happy.

In the book Rosalind Franklin, the author comments that Rosalind did not go by Rosy at all, and it was only a nickname she earned behind her back at work.

All of this is within the context that Rosalind was scammed out of her data, a partial claim to the Nobel Prize, and all while given a bad name while just acting in a manner, that, if she were a man, would be expected. It has been well established by numerous sources besides just sociologists (scientists, etc), that Rosalind was treated in a very sexist way. And for the time period, it makes sense- it has context.

Don't think I have ever argued that there was not or is not sexism in science. I didn't see any other people arguing that either.

So why am I still beating this horse? Does it matter that pre-meds and others call the school Rosy? Are they perpetuating sexism? No, because they are just using a name out of convenience, but are just ignorant. I took OP's message as a PSA (yes, I agree OP was annoyed, but I don't care...OP was not accusing everyone o being terrible sexist pigs, etc) and found it ironic that we have gone to the lengths of naming a school after her but continue such an awkward nickname. I will never use it again (or try not to).

He claimed anyone using the name was perpetuating misogyny and sexism in science and medicine and has seemed pretty upset that many don't agree.

However, since OP opened up a can of worms with some poorly worded initial posts (sorry OP), it became another "let's try to group all people that care about historically oppressed groups all as SJW!!!".

Also don't agree with this. If OP had been talking about sexism in medicine/science in a different context, I don't think it would have come off quite so SJW-y.

The fact that @leonardoson is unwilling to understand the context of what OP is saying and dismiss it entirely is just as ridiculous as saying anyone who calls the school Rosy is a sexist- a charge, which, by the way, OP never made. And the fact that you cannot believe that any of the original nickname has anything to do with sexism leads me to believe that you are, at best, dense, young, stubborn and never experienced anything that would encourage you to think about these things more openly and moderately, or at worst, someone who has hints of misogynistic behavior that makes you feel uncomfortable when other actual sexism is discussed.

This is why I continue the conversation. Not for the actual topic at hand, which I feel like has been MORE than adequately covered, but to pinpoint the underlying tones that I think should be addressed.

Also I'm working over a 12 hour day, so I'm grumpy.

Well, I've worked a 12 hour day, and I still have 14 more hours to go, so get over it. :p

Edited to add the smiley.
 
Also in reference to things like the Sante Fe plaque, it bothers me so damn badly when we change things that are HISTORICAL just to be politically correct. Not sure where that line is drawn in my mind, though- like how recent/old it can be in order to justify keeping/getting rid of it.

I hate how n***** got many books that are historical in trouble, like Huck Finn, etc. Isn't it MUCH better for our kids to LEARN that these things happened? That slavery affected people- how racism affected people back then?

Agreed.

If you teach this stuff in context (not just letting them read about it as if it is acceptable behavior), then surely they will have a much better sense of the entire topic.

This is why Mount and Blade: Warband is one of my all-time favorite video games. You can be a female army leader in it, but it isn't equal. As the woman, you are treated poorly by the factions and it takes a LOT longer and more work to get to the same point a male character would. I greatly prefer this over crap like Jessica Jones, that pretends that there is no consequence or hindrance by being gay, female, transgendered, a minority race in America, etc.

However, this is also why Star Trek is one of my favorite things, because it takes place so so far into the future that it is feasible that oppressed groups are not oppressed at all anymore (and also why Jean-Luc is my favorite captain).

Be real. But also recognize how you can better your actions to continue the long, hard fight against unfair treatment in any way.

I don't play video games, but that sounds cool.
 
One of my favorite writers is William Least-Heat Moon. In his classic book Blue Highways he wrote of having lunch at a restaurant in new Mexico and seated at one table were an African-American, A Hispanic and a Native American. "What a litany of complaint"! he thought.

My wife loves that book.
 
Yes, yes, and yes.

Weird guy.

also i have never understood the hatred of women in the scientific workplace. i would think it would be like YES PLEASE PUT SOME LADIES IN HERE DAMMIT, but i guess some men's fragile egos are too fragile.
I'm a male (and I identify as a heterosexual man in case there is any gender confusion from that statement, a true sign of the times), and all of my letter writers were female. I didn't even realize that this was the case until I was showing my app to a friend applying this year and he made the observation in passing when he saw their names listed. These women are outstanding biochemists, physicians, and leaders in the academic realm. I never even thought about them being women for a single second. So rest assured that the tides are shifting.

As for James Watson, one of my professors has met him personally, and only has the most offputting things to say about him. Based on credible literature, I believe every word of it.
 
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Damn, I also drink at home. Although I do go to the bars with coworkers/friends sometimes...when walking is an option.



There is no high horse. Sorry that you feel as if you are/being placed into a lower level of "morality".
Here is the sexism: the context. You seem to miss the importance of context, and why there is a difference between the nicknames @Matthew9Thirtyfive talks about below and the type OP refers to (or any sort of derogatory nicknames towards those historically oppressed). Some nicknames are mean or are insensitive, such as the ones listed below. Some go beyond just being insensitive- they are used to continue a pattern of oppression of a stereotype of people.


If you did actually Google the topic, you will quite plainly see that the nickname refers to something often recalled by 25 year old Watson in his book, Double Helix. Everyone else in there gets referred to by their name, except for Rosalind, who was referred to as "Rosy". Not only did he make snide remarks about her unlady-like appearance (paraphrase: she looked like she could have been pretty if she tried, but never took time to look feminine and was clearly just raised by her parents to get a career) but he also commented on how she was basically in their way the whole time, a data hoarder. That she was supposed to act like an assistant, not someone like himself- and he was very offended that she did not. His accounts of her were so harsh that even Crick and Wilkins were uncomfortable with how he spoke of her.

In the book Rosalind Franklin, the author comments that Rosalind did not go by Rosy at all, and it was only a nickname she earned behind her back at work.

All of this is within the context that Rosalind was scammed out of her data, a partial claim to the Nobel Prize, and all while given a bad name while just acting in a manner, that, if she were a man, would be expected. It has been well established by numerous sources besides just sociologists (scientists, etc), that Rosalind was treated in a very sexist way. And for the time period, it makes sense- it has context.

So why am I still beating this horse? Does it matter that pre-meds and others call the school Rosy? Are they perpetuating sexism? No, because they are just using a name out of convenience, but are just ignorant. I took OP's message as a PSA (yes, I agree OP was annoyed, but I don't care...OP was not accusing everyone o being terrible sexist pigs, etc) and found it ironic that we have gone to the lengths of naming a school after her but continue such an awkward nickname. I will never use it again (or try not to).

However, since OP opened up a can of worms with some poorly worded initial posts (sorry OP), it became another "let's try to group all people that care about historically oppressed groups all as SJW!!!".

The fact that @leonardoson is unwilling to understand the context of what OP is saying and dismiss it entirely is just as ridiculous as saying anyone who calls the school Rosy is a sexist- a charge, which, by the way, OP never made. And the fact that you cannot believe that any of the original nickname has anything to do with sexism leads me to believe that you are, at best, dense, young, stubborn and never experienced anything that would encourage you to think about these things more openly and moderately, or at worst, someone who has hints of misogynistic behavior that makes you feel uncomfortable when other actual sexism is discussed.

This is why I continue the conversation. Not for the actual topic at hand, which I feel like has been MORE than adequately covered, but to pinpoint the underlying tones that I think should be addressed.

Also I'm working over a 12 hour day, so I'm grumpy.


That hurts my feelings. I think we should talk about how people on the internet try to put others down so that they feel superior.

Thanks for taking the bait btw. Glad to make you waste 20 minutes of your life to prove someone wrong on the internet.
 
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That hurts my feelings. I think we should talk about how people on the internet try to put others down so that they feel superior.
See, there goes that damn point again.

I actually don't have a need to feel or currently feel morally superior in any way. I just like debating.
 
This thread is ridiculous. Wiki says she didn't want to be called Rosy because her great aunt was named Rosy. That's it. We know now. I don't get why this offends you so much. People call it Rosy Franklin medical school because it's short. Nicknames are common. No one does it with ill intent.

Correction: No one here did it with ill intent because none (few?) of us knew the term 'Rosy' was intended as an insult. However, if any of us currently on this thread do it in the future, there is most likely some element of defiance, disregard, carelessness, or passive aggression in it.
 
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Correction: No one here did it with ill intent because none (few?) of us knew the term 'Rosy' was intended as an insult. However, if any of us currently on this thread do it in the future, there is most likely some element of defiance, disregard, carelessness, or passive aggression in it.

This is like those questions that ask, "Have you ever eaten sugar or tried cocaine?" Disregard is not the same as passive aggression or defiance. Some people will still use "Rosey" simply because they don't agree with you and don't think it is misogynistic to use a nickname for a school, even if the school's namesake didn't like it. I'm not saying I agree or disagree with that, but it's not like suddenly because that information is out there, it must be obvious to all that the nickname is sexist.
 
This is like those questions that ask, "Have you ever eaten sugar or tried cocaine?" Disregard is not the same as passive aggression or defiance. Some people will still use "Rosey" simply because they don't agree with you and don't think it is misogynistic to use a nickname for a school, even if the school's namesake didn't like it. I'm not saying I agree or disagree with that, but it's not like suddenly because that information is out there, it must be obvious to all that the nickname is sexist.

Although Franklin was antagonized personally with the name (mostly behind her back), I want to reiterate that most historians/scientists took objection with her treatment long after her death when Watson exposed his own sexism in his memoir in 1968. Again, no one is trying to protect the feelings of someone who is dead. That is the straw-man that keeps coming up.

We are all adults and is up to each individual to evaluate the information and make a decision on how to act. There is definitely no coercision going on here.
 
Although Franklin was antagonized personally with the name (mostly behind her back), I want to reiterate that most historians/scientists took objection with her treatment long after her death when Watson exposed his own sexism in his memoir in 1968. Again, no one is trying to protect the feelings of someone who is dead. That is the straw-man that keeps coming up.

Then why was it constantly brought up that the nickname was used negatively towards her and suggested that its continued use promoted continued sexism and misogyny? It's not a straw man if it's actually part of your argument.

We are all adults and is up to each individual to evaluate the information and make a decision on how to act. There is definitely no coercision going on here.

Indeed.
 
Then why was it constantly brought up that the nickname was used negatively towards her and suggested that its continued use promoted continued sexism and misogyny? It's not a straw man if it's actually part of your argument.



Indeed.

I've been asked multiple times why I care about Franklin's feelings and I feel as if that is missing the point. Perhaps you meant differently, and I am sorry if I misinterpreted your statement.

EDIT: And just to address the straw man about protecting Franklin's feelings (it may not have been your point, but many others have brought it up):

Consider the insult "Nazi". Why is it offensive? Surely we empathize with and want to respect the legacy of the Nazi's victims, which includes my own relatives. However, to be offended by the word (and its variations, such as "feminazi", @Goro used against me in post #101 of this thread) is not merely because one cares about the feelings of the deceased. Surely, we honor those that were oppressed. But the wider implication of the word and its effect on those whose current identity resonates with the historically oppressed (or contemporaries such as holocaust survivors) is why a word may be offensive.

Another example: Let's say one was still using one of the nicknames of Harvey Milk used to antagonize him (I am sure there were many). The US Navy just named one of its ships in his honor. Now, let's say that ship is referred to by one of the homophobic nicknames originally used against Milk. Cannot one see how this can be unsettling for some? "Well why do you care about Milk's feelings?" one may ask. Cannot you see how the question ("how could you possibly care about the feelings of someone who is dead?") is a straw man?
 
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This is like those questions that ask, "Have you ever eaten sugar or tried cocaine?" Disregard is not the same as passive aggression or defiance. Some people will still use "Rosey" simply because they don't agree with you and don't think it is misogynistic to use a nickname for a school, even if the school's namesake didn't like it. I'm not saying I agree or disagree with that, but it's not like suddenly because that information is out there, it must be obvious to all that the nickname is sexist.

I can certainly agree that 'disregard' and 'passive aggression' and misogyny and disrespect are not the same --
Then why was it constantly brought up that the nickname was used negatively towards her and suggested that its continued use promoted continued sexism and misogyny? It's not a straw man if it's actually part of your argument.

So let me ask you directly @Matthew9Thirtyfive -- When you refer to the school that bears her name, how do you intend to refer to it? And why?
 
I've been asked multiple times why I care about Franklin's feelings and I feel as if that is missing the point. Perhaps you meant differently, and I am sorry if I misinterpreted your statement.

I was referencing multiple users. Not just you.

EDIT: And just to address the straw man about protecting Franklin's feelings (it may not have been your point, but many others have brought it up):

Consider the insult "Nazi". Why is it offensive? Surely we empathize with and want to respect the legacy of the Nazi's victims, which includes my own relatives. However, to be offended by the word (and its variations, such as "feminazi", @Goro used against me in post #101 of this thread) is not merely because one cares about the feelings of the deceased. Surely, we honor those that were oppressed. But the wider implication of the word and its effect on those whose current identity resonates with the historically oppressed (or contemporaries such as holocaust survivors) is why a word may be offensive.

Surely you are not equating the marginalization of the genocide of millions of people with the use of a nickname one person didn't like.

Another example: Let's say one was still using one of the nicknames of Harvey Milk used to antagonize him (I am sure there were many). The US Navy just named one of its ships in his honor. Now, let's say that ship is referred to by one of the homophobic nicknames originally used against Milk. Cannot one see how this can be unsettling for some? "Well why do you care about Milk's feelings?" one may ask. Cannot you see how the question ("how could you possibly care about the feelings of someone who is dead?") is a straw man?

Terrible example. None of the homophobic names used against Milk are shortened versions of his name that he happened to not like. No one will argue that calling the Milk the USS ****** or something equally horrendous is not offensive to homosexuals.

I can certainly agree that 'disregard' and 'passive aggression' and misogyny and disrespect are not the same --


So let me ask you directly @Matthew9Thirtyfive -- When you refer to the school that bears her name, how do you intend to refer to it? And why?

Fair question. Honestly, I have never written or said the name of that school before this thread. But, the Navy has ingrained efficiency into me, so I would probably use either RF or Rose.

Edited for grammar.
 
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I was referencing multiple users. Not just you.



Surely you are not equating the marginalization of the genocide of millions of people with the use of a nickname one person didn't like.



Terrible example. None of the homophobic names used against Milk are shortened versions of his name that he happened to not like. No one will argue that calling the Milk the USS ****** or something equally horrendous is not offensive to homosexuals.



Fair question. Honestly, I have never written or said the name of that school before this thread. But, the Navy had ingrained efficiency into me, so I would probably use either RF or Rose.

Of course I am not equating genocide to "Rosy"- that would be absolutely ridiculous. And, as you correctly suggested, "Rosy" is not as bad as a word such as Nazi, homophobic F-word, or racist N-word. I was merely explaining why a given word may be offensive. And it's not because one feels bad for the feelings of the deceased, as many have suggested. The examples were for that purpose.

EDIT: my concluding sentence was "But the wider implication of the word and its effect on those whose current identity resonates with the historically oppressed (or contemporaries such as holocaust survivors) is why a word may be offensive." Explaining why Nazi is offensive is not the same as comparing it in severity to "Rosy".
 
Of course I am not equating genocide to "Rosy"- that would be absolutely ridiculous. And, as you correctly suggested, "Rosy" is not as bad as a word such as Nazi, homophobic F-word, or racist N-word. I was merely explaining why a given word may be offensive. And it's not because one feels bad for the feelings of the deceased, as many have suggested. The examples were for that purpose.

EDIT: my concluding sentence was "But the wider implication of the word and its effect on those whose current identity resonates with the historically oppressed (or contemporaries such as holocaust survivors) is why a word may be offensive." Explaining why Nazi is offensive is not the same as comparing it in severity to "Rosy".

Um, except that in the case of Holocaust victims, yes it is. Your examples were not very supportive of your argument.
 
Because it's simply a word, I don't feel like writing Rosalind, the real Rosalind Franklin is dead, and no one from the school has ever complained about it.


And since it also annoys a thin-skinned SJW, I'll go with that too.
Goro, I have increased my respect for you by 10%.

Now if only you would see the light and change your opinion on race based admissions...
 
Goro, I have increased my respect for you by 10%.

Now if only you would see the light and change your opinion on race based admissions...
I appreciate's Goro's guidance to hundreds of students on this forum. Goro is a positive source of info for countless premeds.

Using an insult (feminazi) made popular by Rush Limbaugh on the other hand...
 
I appreciate's Goro's guidance to hundreds of students on this forum. Goro is a positive source of info for countless premeds.

Using an insult (feminazi) made popular by Rush Limbaugh on the other hand...

While I agree that the overuse of the term Nazi as an insult diminishes the historicity of the word, I don't think there will be another Holocaust one day just because Seinfeld popularized the Soup Nazi (I love that episode, btw). There are just so many more pressing issues than trying to police what people say, especially when the speech at hand is questionably offensive at best.
 
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Um, except that in the case of Holocaust victims, yes it is. Your examples were not very supportive of your argument.
Evoking genocide can get often get one in sticky situations, so perhaps it was poor choice of example by me (although I clearly was not comparing the two in severity). My central point twas hat there are countless words that are offensive that have origins oppressing an individual or a group of people that are no longer alive. These words still have an impact on those whose current identities still resonate with the victims (for "Rosy" example, current female scientists) or contemporaries (female scientists of the 1950s).
 
While I agree that the overuse of the term Nazi as an insult diminishes the historicity of the word, I don't think there will be another Holocaust one day just because Seinfeld popularized the Soup Nazi (I love that episode, btw). There are just so many more pressing issues than trying to police what people say, especially when the speech at hand is questionably offensive at best.
I agree- but there is a slight difference using it as insult against someone (especially one who has survivors/ victims in family) and for purely comedic purposes (although I am personally not comfortable). Either way, you are correct that there are more important issues out there and I am not going to change Goro's style or word choice.
 
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