SCOTUS- Gay Marriage

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A republic is better than a democracy if those allowed to vote are informed, intelligent and concerned about their nation. If I had my way those on the government dole would be excluded from voting; here is my exclusion list:

1. Unemployed or receiving unemployment insurance (right to vote restored with employment)
2. High School dropout or no equivalency of a high school diploma
3. Welfare recipient
4. No Proof of Citizenship (Voter ID required)
5. Felon or former Felon
6. Disability (I'm on the fence with this one)
7. Food Stamps

By enacting 1-7 we could preserve this republic for another 200 hundred years; without 1-5 we won't survive another 50.

A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the majority discovers it can vote itself largess out of the public treasury. After that, the majority always votes for the candidate promising the most benefits with the result the democracy collapses because of the loose fiscal policy ensuing, always to be followed by a dictatorship, then a monarchy.
This to me is an elitist perversion of the system.

Most people, yourself included as I can tell by your posts, vote in a way that benefits themselves above anything else. Rich folks generally vote republican because they'll get more tax breaks, their businesses will get welfare, and they want limits on capital gains. Poor people want a system that gets more money in their hands, either through higher wages or increases in social support. Religious people want social conservatives. Feminists want what they want. Gays want what they want. Why shouldn't uneducated disabled people get to do the same as the rest of us?

We have VERY different views of who's doing the most harm to this country.

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A republic is better than a democracy if those allowed to vote are informed, intelligent and concerned about their nation. If I had my way those on the government dole would be excluded from voting; here is my exclusion list:

1. Unemployed or receiving unemployment insurance (right to vote restored with employment)
2. High School dropout or no equivalency of a high school diploma

3. Welfare recipient
4. No Proof of Citizenship (Voter ID required)
5. Felon or former Felon
6. Disability (I'm on the fence with this one)
7. Food Stamps

By enacting 1-7 we could preserve this republic for another 200 hundred years; without 1-5 we won't survive another 50.

A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the majority discovers it can vote itself largess out of the public treasury. After that, the majority always votes for the candidate promising the most benefits with the result the democracy collapses because of the loose fiscal policy ensuing, always to be followed by a dictatorship, then a monarchy.


1. & 2. I think that we tried poll taxes and literacy tests. For a time only landowners had the right to vote.
 
Can't believe I missed this earlier.

A republic is better than a democracy if those allowed to vote are informed, intelligent and concerned about their nation. If I had my way those on the government dole would be excluded from voting; here is my exclusion list:

1. Unemployed or receiving unemployment insurance (right to vote restored with employment)
3. Welfare recipient
7. Food Stamps

You should add mandatory Depo-Provera shots for the unemployed womenfolk, too. 'Cause if there's one thing that she don't need it's another hungry mouth to feed.


6. Disability (I'm on the fence with this one)

Why the hell should a sick or injured person lose voting rights?
 
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This to me is an elitist perversion of the system.

Most people, yourself included as I can tell by your posts, vote in a way that benefits themselves above anything else. Rich folks generally vote republican because they'll get more tax breaks, their businesses will get welfare, and they want limits on capital gains. Poor people want a system that gets more money in their hands, either through higher wages or increases in social support. Religious people want social conservatives. Feminists want what they want. Gays want what they want. Why shouldn't uneducated disabled people get to do the same as the rest of us?

We have VERY different views of who's doing the most harm to this country.

You cannot succeed in a capitalistic society without helping other people. That is the whole purpose of capitalism, you have meet a societal need in order to be successful. Yes, a person or business benefits from tax breaks and limits on capital gains taxes. Guess what? There are beneficial consequences from doing that. That extra money that is now available for people is reinvested in their own business or put in investments that help the economy by expanding businesses, creating jobs, and benefiting society. Capitalism is not based on corporate welfare, that is just a consequence of an expanded size and scope of government and mega corporations that buy the politicians to pass laws that give them welfare. It's cronyism and has nothing to do with being economically conservative. If you want to help poor people, GET THEM A JOB! You are not going to get them a job when Obamacare, minimum wage laws, high federal income taxes, and high corporate taxes are destroying the economy. Obama's failed socialist ideologies and political policies, the Federal Reserve, cronyism, and corruption are what is doing the most harm to this country. The people running this country have a stranglehold on everything and will keep the status quo. They will continue to race bait, stir up social issues, create controversies, etc. as they continue their corruption, cronyism, and bankruptcy of our country.
 
This to me is an elitist perversion of the system.

Most people, yourself included as I can tell by your posts, vote in a way that benefits themselves above anything else. Rich folks generally vote republican because they'll get more tax breaks, their businesses will get welfare, and they want limits on capital gains. Poor people want a system that gets more money in their hands, either through higher wages or increases in social support. Religious people want social conservatives. Feminists want what they want. Gays want what they want. Why shouldn't uneducated disabled people get to do the same as the rest of us?

We have VERY different views of who's doing the most harm to this country.


When the government hands out benefits to its citizens in order to secure votes the system becomes corrupted. A Citizen who works to earn his/her income and then is forced by other citizens to hand over the fruits of his labor is at the mercy of the masses. This isn't the America that the founders intended for us; we are an independent people who believe in self-reliance and self governance. State and local governments should be in charge of most social programs.

Social programs are necessary and even beneficial but shouldn't the people supporting these programs decide on how much to give and to whom? Once the non productive class becomes in charge of deciding to take by force from the productive class a nation begins its decline. My view on the federal government is one of limited interference, limited taxation and certainly limited ability to spend other people's money.
 
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The only proper purpose of a government is to protect man’s rights, which means: to protect him from physical violence. A proper government is only a policeman, acting as an agent of man’s self-defense, and, as such, may resort to force only against those who start the use of force. The only proper functions of a government are: the police, to protect you from criminals; the army, to protect you from foreign invaders; and the courts, to protect your property and contracts from breach or fraud by others, to settle disputes by rational rules, according to objective law. But a government that initiates the employment of force against men who had forced no one, the employment of armed compulsion against disarmed victims, is a nightmare infernal machine designed to annihilate morality: such a government reverses its only moral purpose and switches from the role of protector to the role of man’s deadliest enemy, from the role of policeman to the role of a criminal vested with the right to the wielding of violence against victims deprived of the right of self-defense. Such a government substitutes for morality the following rule of social conduct: you may do whatever you please to your neighbor, provided your gang is bigger than his.

John Galt
 
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This to me is an elitist perversion of the system.

Most people, yourself included as I can tell by your posts, vote in a way that benefits themselves above anything else. Rich folks generally vote republican because they'll get more tax breaks, their businesses will get welfare, and they want limits on capital gains. Poor people want a system that gets more money in their hands, either through higher wages or increases in social support. Religious people want social conservatives. Feminists want what they want. Gays want what they want. Why shouldn't uneducated disabled people get to do the same as the rest of us?

We have VERY different views of who's doing the most harm to this country.

I think he included those groups because of the objection that pgg raised:

"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the majority discovers it can vote itself largess out of the public treasury. After that, the majority always votes for the candidate promising the most benefits with the result the democracy collapses because of the loose fiscal policy ensuing, always to be followed by a dictatorship, then a monarchy”

The idea of excluding welfare recipients from voting is meant to check this kind of behavior. You cannot vote yourself largess (because accepting such means that you are disqualified from voting).

I don't necessarily agree that this is the best way to curb that problem, but I think that's the spirit in which it was offered.
 
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When those millions of voters vote for things that are violations of the Constitution, you betcha I want the courts to overrule them. I'd feel better if the votes were 9-0 but 5-4 is OK too.

Exhibit B: Prop 8

In theory SCOTUS ensures that our laws conform to the constitution. In reality, justices usually vote along party lines, only giving the appearance of caring about the constitution. What really happens is that they decide what they want the outcome to be and then craft arguments that support those outcomes using a particular interpretation of the constitution in order to do so. That’s exactly what happened in this case. You’re happy with it because 5 of them voted in favor of your preferred interpretation of the constitution, and right now the court is liberal. I doubt you would you have so vigorously endorsed their incredible unchecked power had another Alito or Thomas been appointed rather than a Sotomayor, and the decisions were consistently 5-4 in the conservative direction.
 
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In theory SCOTUS ensures that our laws conform to the constitution. In reality, justices usually vote along party lines, only giving the appearance of caring about the constitution. What really happens is that they decide what they want the outcome to be and then craft arguments that support those outcomes using a particular interpretation of the constitution in order to do so. That’s exactly what happened in this case. You’re happy with it because 5 of them voted in favor of your preferred interpretation of the constitution, and right now the court is liberal. I doubt you would you have so vigorously endorsed their incredible unchecked power had another Alito or Thomas been appointed rather than a Sotomayor, and the decisions were consistently 5-4 in the conservative direction.
Heller and McDonald were 5-4 in the conservative direction, and they got those right. The only court cases I think they got really badly wrong in recent memory were Citizens United and the ACA.

It's probably for the best that the court is an approximately even split between D and R appointees.

"Incredible unchecked power?" You mean, checked by the other 2 branches of government, as the Constitution is written, right? So much handwringing over the judicial branch actually working as intended surprises me.
 
The lawlessness and corruption in this country has turned our government into a mockery. Obama with his executive orders and selective enforcement of the laws, the Supreme Court with their partisan legislative advocates, and the total incompetence of the Senate and Congress to do anything their constituents want or hold anyone accountable for anything, all while representing the lobbyists and special interests. Everyone is too mindless to even realize what is going on. No one has a clue because they are too busy getting involved in a 70 IQ discussion about race baiting issues that are totally idiotic. We truly continue to steep to a new low with every day that passes.
 
"Incredible unchecked power?" You mean, checked by the other 2 branches of government, as the Constitution is written, right? So much handwringing over the judicial branch actually working as intended surprises me.

In terms of checks and balances, SCOTUS can restrain the legislature/executive by ruling, even by the narrowest of 5-4 margins, that the laws they are making/enforcing are unconstitutional/illegal.

When has the legislature/executive been able to tell the court that it was overreaching and directly overrule SCOTUS? The only way to do so would be to amend the constitution. There have been 10 constitutional amendments ratified in the last 100 years. I can't think of any that were directly aimed at overruling a SCOTUS decision, and the last one took over 200 years to be ratified. Amending the constitition is so arduous that it typically doesn't occur unless their is such broad consensus about the changes being made that SCOTUS is unlikely to be opposing those changes in the first place

In contrast, SCOTUS typically takes ~70-150 cases per year, many directly aimed at overruling the legislative or executive branches on the most hotly debated issues of the day (abortion, affirmative action, the ACA, gay marriage, religious freedom, corporate speech, etc). The SCOTUS decision is in practice the final say, because the fact that the issue is controversial to begin with precludes a constitutional amendment (which requires an extreme degree of consensus to pass).

That's not what I call "checked".
 
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I think he included those groups because of the objection that pgg raised:

"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the majority discovers it can vote itself largess out of the public treasury. After that, the majority always votes for the candidate promising the most benefits with the result the democracy collapses because of the loose fiscal policy ensuing, always to be followed by a dictatorship, then a monarchy”

The idea of excluding welfare recipients from voting is meant to check this kind of behavior. You cannot vote yourself largess (because accepting such means that you are disqualified from voting).

I don't necessarily agree that this is the best way to curb that problem, but I think that's the spirit in which it was offered.
I don't think it's necessary to explain why he included the groups he did. We all get it. I just personally think it's laughable to suggest that poor people on welfare will ever EVER control the vote. How is it possible to believe this?
Do you have evidence of this?

I absolutely agree, however, that CORPORATE welfare and tax loopholes for the rich are destroying the middle class. These are the people who control the vote and the country. Maybe we should let people getting 10k in welfare vote and NOT let people getting millions in welfare vote.
 
I don't think it's necessary to explain why he included the groups he did. We all get it. I just personally think it's laughable to suggest that poor people on welfare will ever EVER control the vote. How is it possible to believe this?
Do you have evidence of this?

You can't be serious...

I absolutely agree, however, that CORPORATE welfare and tax loopholes for the rich are destroying the middle class. These are the people who control the vote and the country. Maybe we should let people getting 10k in welfare vote and NOT let people getting millions in welfare vote.

MSNBC strikes again... :smack:
 
[You cannot succeed in a capitalist society without] Being useful to other people? Yes.

But helping them? That might be a bit exaggerated. That goes more with socialism, not capitalism. I guess you could stretch the sense of the word, if you consider hired help = "help". But I don't consider satisfying a societal need for a fee/price as help.

Helpful is definitely not a word I would associate with capitalists. It's almost sarcastic in that context. Donald Trump must be extremely helpful. :D
 
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[You cannot succeed in a capitalist society without] Being useful to other people? Yes.

But helping them? That might be a bit exaggerated. That goes more with socialism, not capitalism. I guess you could stretch the sense of the word, if you consider hired help = "help". But I don't consider satisfying a societal need for a fee/price as help.

Helpful is definitely not a word I would associate with capitalists. It's almost sarcastic in that context. Donald Trump must be extremely helpful. :D

Oh boy... how can a physician in academic medicine that is obviously a very intelligent scientific person unable to understand the value of capitalism to society? Your entire life is impacted by capitalists. Everything from the moment you wake up to moment you go to sleep. Your clothes, iPhone, computer, house, car, TV set, electricity, water, appliances, entertainment, etc. is all based on capitalism. Without capitalism, you would have nothing. Your quality of life would be severely diminished without technology, innovation, and companies providing goods and services to you. If we lived in a socialist country and the state owned everything you would be dirt poor with nothing, waiting in a government line hoping they gave you a piece of bread. I encourage you to go try and live in a country like Venezuela or Cuba and then come back and tell me capitalism doesn't help you. Donald Trump has created thousands of jobs and created elegant hotels and golf courses that have provided happiness and entertainment to hundreds of thousands of people. You and Pooh & Annie seriously need to read a basic economics book about the free market and capitalism because neither one of you has a clue. I'm being serious. I'm not trying to be antagonistic or critical, but both of you need to be more informed if you re going to have a discussion about this subject. If you think I am wrong, just pull up any YouTube video about Milton Friedman.
 
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78a9b3_1433641.jpg


socialism-vs-capitalism.jpg
 
I know very well the difference; I know much more than you'd think. I am a big believer in free initiative and free markets myself, too, but let's not fool ourselves: capitalist enterprises are not created for altruistic purposes, to be of "help" to society. The fact that capitalism works so much better than socialism/communism shows that humans are selfish animals, and personal gains motivate them way more than group interests.

(Just a reminder - this is where we started: )
You cannot succeed in a capitalistic society without helping other people.

In capitalism, business enterprises are not founded to help people, to create jobs or to satisfy some other societal need (nope, that's socialism). What matters most is profit, and everything else is a side-effect. Of course, there are many socially-conscious companies, which care deeply about their employees or community, but again, let's not fool ourselves: they are very much in the minority, especially when considering their capital (the bigger the corporation the more greedy it is, as are its shareholders). Companies don't succeed because they are "helping" people, au contraire. If they create jobs, that's a side-effect, not a purpose of their activity; the purpose of their activity is to create profit, by having other people work for them for less money than their equitable share, by separating them into owners and employees. Any company where a long-term employee cannot buy in at the current company value is basically exploiting the employee (it's just a more evolved form of slavery). The concept of employment is generally far from altruistic: you are hiring a person to do a job so you can pocket the difference between how much s/he produces and how much s/he costs. And no, the employee doesn't really have a choice, not in a society where one has to work in order to subsist. Same way as anesthesia residency grads don't have much choice, except for slaving away (in a modern sense) for AMCs or greedy PP partners; the only real choice is for whom.

If companies help people (customers), that's again a side-effect, not the main purpose. It's just basic human psychology. Very few people are true altruists. For example, very few people will be proponents of free markets when they are running a monopoly and can keep milking the cow. There is a reason we say that if you want to test somebody's character give him power. Not everybody is a Warren Buffett, who complains about being undertaxed and is slowly giving away 90+% of his immense wealth. Any society in which a very small percentage of the population owns a very high percentage of the country is nowhere close to being a democracy, but that's a different story. One could also argue that true democracy cannot be attained, since most people (especially the entrepreneurial/leader type) are just selfish and greedy, and when they get money and/or power they want more money and/or more power. There will always be rich and poor, haves and have nots, alphas and non-alphas etc.

So the last thing I would associate success in capitalism with is helping people. Quite the opposite. There is a reason most saints were not rich people. And also why, in many capitalist countries, passive (ownership-based) income is taxed at a lower rate than income from employment (despite them being democracies and the number of employees far exceeding those of the owners), because the people in power are not any more altruistic than regular Joe. ;)

I completely agree with Friedman, by the way. There is no better alternative to capitalism. It's just far from perfect, and very far from Mother Theresa (because most humans are unlike her). Hence one has to mix it with bits of social protection and governmental checks etc. before it gets out of hand. I am not at all arguing against capitalism, I just want it kept under some control, closer to equal opportunity than crony. E.g. any individual anesthesiologist (or physician) should be able to work in any hospital, as long as s/he shares call duties, without belonging to a monopolistic group or arrangement.

P.S. My apologies for the long off-topic.
 
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Yeah, it's hard to find pictures of poor, destitute people in America or Hong Kong. Keep studying. And quit arguing against socialism. No one has argued FOR socialism. We've always been a hybrid, and that isn't going to change.


Yes, it is going to get worse as more Democrats keep piling on the govt programs. Socialism won't end until we are bankrupt or the people demand it. Guess which one I think is most likely?
 
I'm busy at the moment, but I will respond to your comments when I get a chance. For now, I will leave you with this.
11695731_1099081153454420_8949750325701283498_n.jpg
 
Yes, it is going to get worse as more Democrats keep piling on the govt programs. Socialism won't end until we are bankrupt or the people demand it. Guess which one I think is most likely?

A. Raise the minimum wage so work is better than welfare.
B. Control the border so working class wages aren't undermined by foreign labor.

People will get off government programs all on their own.
 
A. Raise the minimum wage so work is better than welfare.
B. Control the border so working class wages aren't undermined by foreign labor.

People will get off government programs all on their own.

A. That will cause more unemployment.
B. Unemployed Americans should stop being so entitled and adapt to societal needs and develop a skill set that will get them a quality job. Maybe they should've gone to a vocational school, college, or studied something on the internet or in the library instead of wasting time doing nothing. There's nothing you cannot learn about with the internet and the resources available. Americans making minimum wage with no skill set have it better than 70% of the planet so they need to get off their high horse.
C. Lower corporate taxes to incentivize businesses to bring jobs back to the U.S. Sorry, but when you have the highest corporate tax rate in the world no business is stupid enough to stick around when they can go open their factory in SE Asia or China for almost nothing and pay those people a fraction of what an American would demand. The 20% unemployment rate and low labor participation rate is a direct consequence of all the liberal economic policies so if they want to be upset they need to direct their anger where it belongs. When you have no skill set, you have no right to be entitled about how much you're willing to work for something when someone else is able and willing to do it for less.
 
A. That will cause more unemployment.
B. Unemployed Americans should stop being so entitled and adapt to societal needs and develop a skill set that will get them a quality job. Maybe they should've gone to a vocational school, college, or studied something on the internet or in the library instead of wasting time doing nothing. There's nothing you cannot learn about with the internet and the resources available. Americans making minimum wage with no skill set have it better than 70% of the planet so they need to get off their high horse.
C. Lower corporate taxes to incentivize businesses to bring jobs back to the U.S. Sorry, but when you have the highest corporate tax rate in the world no business is stupid enough to stick around when they can go open their factory in SE Asia or China for almost nothing and pay those people a fraction of what an American would demand. The 20% unemployment rate and low labor participation rate is a direct consequence of all the liberal economic policies so if they want to be upset they need to direct their anger where it belongs. When you have no skill set, you have no right to be entitled about how much you're willing to work for something when someone else is able and willing to do it for less.

You should pay a some attention to the subject of increasing wealth inequality and decreasing social mobility. These things are horribly corrosive for American society. Low skill living wage jobs are hard to come by. As are good paying middle skill jobs. Saying "cut taxes and all will be well" just doesn't pass the red face test anymore. Do I think that lefty big government programs can fix this problem? NO. What drives me crazy is Republicans, from whom I expect a little more intellectually, who insist that these are not serious problems or that cutting taxes and rolling back entitlements will make things better.

Yes it is better than most of the world, but it isn't going in the right direction.

Two Milton Friedman quotes that I agree with:

  • The problem in this world is to avoid concentration of power - we must have a dispersion of power
  • I think the government solution to a problem is usually as bad as the problem and very often makes the problem worse.

We have concentration of power and problems of inequality that government can't fix and big business doesn't want to fix. In response we have had eight years of Barack Obama, Hillary likely to win, and people starting to take Bernie Sanders types seriously.
 
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B. Unemployed Americans should stop being so entitled and adapt to societal needs and develop a skill set that will get them a quality job. Maybe they should've gone to a vocational school, college, or studied something on the internet or in the library instead of wasting time doing nothing. There's nothing you cannot learn about with the internet and the resources available. Americans making minimum wage with no skill set have it better than 70% of the planet so they need to get off their high horse.
FollowTheMoney.Age = between 20 and 30. :)
 
You should pay a some attention to the subject of increasing wealth inequality and decreasing social mobility. These things are horribly corrosive for American society. Low skill living wage jobs are hard to come by. As are good paying middle skill jobs. Saying "cut taxes and all will be well" just doesn't pass the red face test anymore. Do I think that lefty big government programs can fix this problem? NO. What drives me crazy is Republicans, from whom I expect a little more intellectually, who insist that these are not serious problems or that cutting taxes and rolling back entitlements will make things better.

Yes it is better than most of the world, but it isn't going in the right direction.

Two Milton Friedman quotes that I agree with:

  • The problem in this world is to avoid concentration of power - we must have a dispersion of power
  • I think the government solution to a problem is usually as bad as the problem and very often makes the problem worse.
We have concentration of power and problems of inequality that government can't fix and big business doesn't want to fix. In response we have had eight years of Barack Obama, Hillary likely to win, and people starting to take Bernie Sanders types seriously.

1. Increasing wealth inequality => Federal Reserve, Crony Capitalism, and Corruption
2. Decreasing social mobility, lack of low skill living wage jobs => Companies all going overseas to build, manufacture, and employ people. Why? High taxes, regulation, and stifling growth by government
3. Who said this isn't a problem? Hillary? Jeb? The candidates I follow talk about it.
4. How can you say cutting taxes, rolling back entitlements, and shrinking government won't help when it has not been given the opportunity to?
5. I agree with Milton Friedman on just about everything, the guy is a genius.
6. Government is never the answer.
7. Big business does not want to fix it because they have a monopoly. They own the politicians and engage in crony capitalism to eliminate competitors and exploit the situation to their advantage. They avoid all the taxes and regulations in the US and own the politicians so why would they care? It's not their problem.
8. People are looking for answers and I understand their frustration, but they are directing it in the wrong place because they don't understand the problem. The problems Bernie Sanders talks about are real, but he does not have any solutions that will help because his ideologies and policies don't work and have never worked. All he would do is exacerbate the problem. People need to understand the Federal Reserve and the corruption that is taking place in Washington. They need to see that mega corporations are in bed with the government to screw everyone else. That is not free market capitalism. Yet, everyone thinks capitalism is the problem. The problem is the government is too big and too corrupt.
 
1. Increasing wealth inequality => Federal Reserve, Crony Capitalism, and Corruption
2. Decreasing social mobility, lack of low skill living wage jobs => Companies all going overseas to build, manufacture, and employ people. Why? High taxes, regulation, and stifling growth by government
7. Big business does not want to fix it because they have a monopoly. They own the politicians and engage in crony capitalism to eliminate competitors and exploit the situation to their advantage. They avoid all the taxes and regulations in the US and own the politicians so why would they care? It's not their problem.
:caution:
 
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Yes, it is going to get worse as more Democrats keep piling on the govt programs. Socialism won't end until we are bankrupt or the people demand it. Guess which one I think is most likely?

Good. I hope they do. I want this corrupt governmental monstrosity to implode. The sooner the better.
 
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I maintain that the exploiting class is almost always wealthy (though not all those who are wealthy are part of the exploiting class.) It seems safe to assume that a parasitic political class that gets its wealth from violent expropriation would over time accumulate this wealth; not only over one generation but several. Look at the Kennedys, the Bushes, the Morgans, and the Rockefellers as examples. Likewise, the exploited classes, as they are driven further down into the dirt, see their situation continue to worsen until they are stuck in a recurring cycle of poverty. As a given society moves further from a genuine free market libertarian order, it becomes truer to say that the rich are exploiting the poor. It does not begin so but that is the inevitable result. Exploiters confiscate greater wealth, while the exploited become continually impoverished. Wealth inequality is the result.

We are often reminded of statistics showing that the wealthiest pay the most taxes. I think this is a misleading way of analyzing wealth inequality. It is clear that members of parliament, congressmen, senators, heads of government departments may be wealthy individuals and for that reason pay high taxes. But few libertarians would feel sympathy for them: you cannot steal from a thief. This analysis should be applied just as strictly to the so called "private sector". Corporations such as General Electric and Lockheed Martin may pay very high rates of corporate taxes indeed, and their CEOs may shovel over large portions of their salaries to the state.

Clearly, though, it is not obvious that these companies are worse off as a result of government policy. Entire forms of industry benefit from government privileges in the form of central banking, patents, tariffs, subsidies, etc. To say that they are disadvantaged because of progressive taxation, while ignoring the benefits they receive seems to be a rather one sided way of looking at things.

Some libertarians and conservatives will often attempt to point to the redistributive "social justice" aspect of the modern welfare state as somehow particular to this day and age. Yes, there is a vast welfare apparatus that, in theory, serves the poor and acts as a social safety net. The institution of public debt has also been tweaked and fine tuned, allowing for a monstrous growth in government growth, and debt, at all levels. But the basic exploiter-exploited dynamic remains the same.

I hold the view that the welfare state is generally a secondary market intervention brought about to soften the harsh effects of previous state interventions in the economy. These include cartelization of the banking sector and the resulting permanent inflation, land monopolization by the state, creeping regulation and the creation of high legal barriers of entry to virtually every industry, tariffs, the existence of a permanent war economy, and more recently, the creation of innovation crushing intellectual property rights. Such an economic system is inherently unstable, among other reasons because the productive classes can only be squeezed for so long.

An inevitable result of such economic interventions is unemployment, business cycles, inflation, social decay, and general impoverishment. To counter these tendencies more "liberal" interventions are created by policy makers in the form of state pensions and unemployment insurance, minimum wage legislation, work place safety standards, public works, progressive taxation, state education and healthcare services, etc. to help bring some sort of temporary social and economic stability to the system. These interventions are themselves temporary and don’t help to alleviate the fundamental instabilities within the economic system. As time passes these market interventions in turn only further distort rational economic calculation, producing more economic and social turmoil. The process is a vicious cycle.

Furthermore we should keep in mind that corporate elites have themselves supported various aspects of the welfare state and corporate regulation throughout the mid-to-late 19th and 20th centuries. I think this is a very important point to emphasize when debating both the left and right. Many pundits who condemn the welfare state either ignore, or are oblivious to, the fact that its establishment is to a good extent a result of cooperation between wealthy elites and the state. It is true that a large percent of the population is dependent on government handouts. However we should not blame welfare recipients for the existence of the welfare state. Likewise it is incorrect to claim that welfare recipients are the same ones responsible for bringing these policies into existence, have any say in how they are crafted, or have any power over their execution. I may use Canada Post, drive down a city street, or send my child to public school. I may even be, for a temporary period, worse off if these options were taken away from me. But does this render me a member of the exploitative political class? I think not.

Marx, to paraphrase him again, said that religion was the opiate of the masses. It seems that role is now served by the welfare state. It keeps the exploited class in a subservient role, insuring that they do not question the intentions of their masters, while at the same time making them think they are looked after. If the political situation starts getting fiery, and the elite get nervous, policies are changed, tweaked, or reworked. This process can be slow and incremental, such as an increase in minimum wage or public sector pensions, or alternatively take up a good deal of the political gossip, say, the recent passing of Obamacare. Sometimes, a radical new innovation is brought forward, such as the new Robin Hood tax. Surprise, surprise, it receives support from such champions of the proletariat as Warren Buffet and George Soros. With them on our side how can we possibly lose!?

The point to all this is that the elite never want the productive classes to ask significant questions about their situation: Why are they on welfare in the first place? Why have they been put into a position where they need to rely on it to get by? Why are there no jobs? Why are the jobs that exist low paying, poor quality work? Why are their rights constantly being eroded? How have they become a serf class?

I started off talking about economic inequality. As the state grows in power and the sphere of peaceful cooperation shrinks, economic wealth becomes less an indicator of entrepreneurial achievement and more an indicator of the ability of some to plunder their fellow man through the political means. The Occupy Movement tends to be suspicious of the present existing large concentrations of wealth. In our increasingly statist age this seems a reasonable complaint. What we as libertarians should do, is point the Occupy movement, and more generally, the radical left, in the right – er – correct, direction. We should try to explain to them that if they really think wealth inequality is a problem our goal should be to abolish the state and the violent, political means of exploitation that have always reduce men to poverty and misery in the first place.
 
Seriously. I wouldn't try explaining though. When someone's 100% locked into an ideology, they're unable to see the inconsistencies, hypocrisies, or the truth. Hopefully with a little real world experience/education...

I don't see any inconsistencies or hypocritical statements with anything I've said. I've been pretty consistent. I have plenty of real world experience and education, believe me. Please just read my post (the one above yours), it will explain everything you could ever want to know about income inequality, welfare, crony capitalism, etc.
 

You misunderstood what I was trying to say. The United States has the highest corporate tax rate in the world, some of the harshest regulations, and such a bloated central government that is very anti-business (for mid sized and small businesses). Now, you have to delineate between the mega corporations and regular businesses. The mega corporations like GE, Berkshire Hathaway, etc. use their power to get in bed with the central government to oppose their competition and use lobbyists and money to frame legislation that protects them. Many of them have special exemptions and deductions that they had lawmakers implement for them. Nevertheless, they still are going to take advantage of the global marketplace with cheap labor and more efficient production elsewhere. Regular mid sized and small businesses are the ones who feel the wrath of the heavy taxation, burdensome regulations, etc. so they go overseas to avoid that. They would not be able to get their business off the ground otherwise and are able to avoid many of those problems. Nevertheless, they still have a difficult time competing with the mega corporations because the game is rigged in many ways.
 
You should add mandatory Depo-Provera shots for the unemployed womenfolk, too. 'Cause if there's one thing that she don't need it's another hungry mouth to feed.

People, don't you understand the child needs a helping hand or he'll grow to be an angry young man some day.
 
1. Increasing wealth inequality => Federal Reserve, Crony Capitalism, and Corruption
2. Decreasing social mobility, lack of low skill living wage jobs => Companies all going overseas to build, manufacture, and employ people. Why? High taxes, regulation, and stifling growth by government
3. Who said this isn't a problem? Hillary? Jeb? The candidates I follow talk about it.
4. How can you say cutting taxes, rolling back entitlements, and shrinking government won't help when it has not been given the opportunity to?
5. I agree with Milton Friedman on just about everything, the guy is a genius.
6. Government is never the answer.
7. Big business does not want to fix it because they have a monopoly. They own the politicians and engage in crony capitalism to eliminate competitors and exploit the situation to their advantage. They avoid all the taxes and regulations in the US and own the politicians so why would they care? It's not their problem.
8. People are looking for answers and I understand their frustration, but they are directing it in the wrong place because they don't understand the problem. The problems Bernie Sanders talks about are real, but he does not have any solutions that will help because his ideologies and policies don't work and have never worked. All he would do is exacerbate the problem. People need to understand the Federal Reserve and the corruption that is taking place in Washington. They need to see that mega corporations are in bed with the government to screw everyone else. That is not free market capitalism. Yet, everyone thinks capitalism is the problem. The problem is the government is too big and too corrupt.

While higher than average taxes and regulation are a problem regarding outsourcing, companies are also leaving because labor is cheaper, technology has made it easier to do so, and education has become a less rare commodity throughout the world. These trends aren't going away and a lot of the good jobs that have been lost don't have a sign of coming back.

The country is tilting left in response to increasing inequality and decreasing mobility.
See also serf uprisings, French Revolution, and Storming of the Winter Palace.

The Federal Reserve is using a blunt tool- Monetary Policy, to postpone the traditional consequences of Fiscal imprudence by the President and Congress. Failure to do so increases the odds of another Depression. They are hoping that their actions will allow the world economy to muddle through. On the flip side, they increase the odds of something even more horrific than another Depression happening down the road.
 
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While higher than average taxes and regulation are a problem regarding outsourcing, companies are also leaving because labor is cheaper, technology has made it easier to do so, and education has become a less rare commodity throughout the world. These trends aren't going away and a lot of the good jobs that have been lost don't have a sign of coming back.

The country is tilting left in response to increasing inequality and decreasing mobility.
See also serf uprisings, French Revolution, and Storming of the Winter Palace.

The Federal Reserve is using a blunt tool- Monetary Policy, to postpone the traditional consequences of Fiscal imprudence by the President and Congress. Failure to do so increases the odds of another Depression. They are hoping that their actions will allow the world economy to muddle through. On the flip side, they increase the odds of something even more horrific than another Depression happening down the road.

You have to give the companies an incentive to bring their production and jobs back to the United States. The only way you can do that is to figure out how much overhead it costs them to conduct their operations overseas and what it costs for them to import their product here and beat it domestically by lowering taxes and regulation to the point where it would make sense to conduct business operations in the United States. Like I said before, people are shifting left economically because they don't understand the true problem. If they knew that this was all a direct consequence of the expansion and power of the state everyone would flock to people like Ron Paul. He was the one who understood the problem perfectly which is why he ostracized from all the media outlets. He was a threat to the establishment. When the Federal Reserve physically cannot print anymore money, we are going to have the worst crash in the history of the United States. This crash is going to make 1929 look like a joke. There is nowhere on the planet where you will be able to hide from that nuclear fallout.
 
While higher than average taxes and regulation are a problem regarding outsourcing, companies are also leaving because labor is cheaper, technology has made it easier to do so, and education has become a less rare commodity throughout the world. These trends aren't going away and a lot of the good jobs that have been lost don't have a sign of coming back.

I stand behind this. No matter how low our taxes get her in the U.S., if I can get a chinese kid to make my iPad for 10% of what an US kid would need to be paid, I'm keeping my manufacturing in China. These companies just want to make money.

My problem with libertarians and many conservatives is that they forget that some people are poor and can't help it. It's not just about gov't handouts, corruption, etc. Some people are poor and will stay poor because of racism, classism, sexism, etc. Yes, there are people who are poor because they're on drugs, or because they're criminals, or because they're plain lazy, or can't keep their legs closed, or can't keep IT in their pants......


But there are people out there who are poor because they JUST CANT GET A JOB. Hell, I have "MD" written on my CV along with "Board Certified" and there are still job postings that won't call me back......hmmmm......

We should be thankful we all passed our classes, got the highest of education, and have the ability to work.
 
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I stand behind this. No matter how low our taxes get her in the U.S., if I can get a chinese kid to make my iPad for 10% of what an US kid would need to be paid, I'm keeping my manufacturing in China. These companies just want to make money.

My problem with libertarians and many conservatives is that they forget that some people are poor and can't help it. It's not just about gov't handouts, corruption, etc. Some people are poor and will stay poor because of racism, classism, sexism, etc. Yes, there are people who are poor because they're on drugs, or because they're criminals, or because they're plain lazy, or can't keep their legs closed, or can't keep IT in their pants......


But there are people out there who are poor because they JUST CANT GET A JOB. Hell, I have "MD" written on my CV along with "Board Certified" and there are still job postings that won't call me back......hmmmm......

We should be thankful we all passed our classes, got the highest of education, and have the ability to work.

It was designed that way and you are correct in many ways. Read my "long post" above.
 
The conservative mantra is that Obama is the worst jobs president in history, and there are no good jobs available. However, let's cut social programs because lazy people on welfare just need to go get a job.
 
The conservative mantra is that Obama is the worst jobs president in history, and there are no good jobs available. However, let's cut social programs because lazy people on welfare just need to go get a job.

He is the worst jobs president ever and there are no no good jobs available. All of that is directly related to his failed policies and his anti-business stance on just about everything. Obamacare has been one of the biggest job killers of all. Once you roll back all of those failed policies, then you can get everyone off welfare. Many of them are lazy and try to scam the system. However, no one benefits from being dependent on welfare their whole lives. They need a job.
 
A. Raise the minimum wage so work is better than welfare.
B. Control the border so working class wages aren't undermined by foreign labor.

People will get off government programs all on their own.
Minimum wage was never meant to be a living wage. Decrease welfare so that people will accept minimum wage jobs TO START.

A lot of foreign labor does jobs welfare recipients won't touch - picking Vidalia onions in South Georgia for example.
 
Minimum wage was never meant to be a living wage. Decrease welfare so that people will accept minimum wage jobs TO START.

A lot of foreign labor does jobs welfare recipients won't touch - picking Vidalia onions in South Georgia for example.
First, welfare recipients would pick onions if it provided a better lifestyle than welfare. Second, a machine could pick onions. Welfare programs just let the farmers pass the cost of foreign labor onto the taxpayer making it more cost effective to hire aliens than to invest in machinery.

Why shouldn't the minimum wage be a living wage? Not everyone is cut out for skilled or professional work. It doesn't mean their lives need to suck.

There is plenty of wealth in this country for everyone to have a nice life. We don't need equal outcomes but the bottom incomes should be higher and the top incomes should be lower (after taxes).
 
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Is that your way of telling me subtly that you think I'm immature or a naive little boy? :laugh:
I don't know the art of subtlety. :)

It made me smile, because I used to think like you at that age. Everything was so clearly black or white, very little grey.
 
I don't know the art of subtlety. :)

It made me smile, because I used to think like you at that age. Everything was so clearly black or white, very little grey.

Speaking of age... I'm assuming you are over the age of 50.

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