So I just got into Northwestern...

[Mr_Virgo]

... which is #13 in the nation according to US News ranking's and has a 15% acceptance rate. I currently go to a small, private school, which is top 50 in my region and has a 55% acceptance rate.

Over the course of the past semester I have been able to distinguish myself amongst my fellow students, and as a freshman have worked in our university's cadaver lab, held leadership positions in an economics forum, visited a Central American country on a medical brigade, and have obtained a paid summer research position in our university's research lab.

I will be presenting the research I am conducting this summer at our university's research symposium, and I have been selected to hold a position as a researcher in that very same lab throughout my sophomore, junior, and senior year. Presumably, by senior year I should be something of a mentor to the underclassmen, and will have developed a solid relationship with the professors guiding my research and overseeing our lab.

I have been able to crush my introductory classes and have kept a 4.0.

Do I transfer?

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[Vain Brother]

if you want

 

[DrHart]

Congrats boo boo. I'd take it

 

[Mr_Virgo]

Thanks DrHart. Vain Brother, I apologize if I did not make the question clear, but my concern revolves around whether or not it would be beneficial towards my career (i.e getting accepted into medical school) to transfer. I know Northwestern's classes will better prepare me, but at the same time I also know that the connections I could potentially make at my current university will be more impactful.

 

[candbgirl]

Northwestern is a great school but you seem very content and successful at your current school. You seem to have built a niche for yourself and you do seem happy. Only you can decide but think hard before you pull up stakes. The grass is not always greener... Good luck in your decision.

Sent from my KFOT using Tapatalk 2

 

[WingedOx]

No, it won't be helpful.

 

[Mr_Virgo]

Hey WingedOx, thanks for the reply, but can you please expand on that?

 

[massmocha]

If you don't go, that was probably a waste of an application fee. I assume since you applied that you are planning to go. It's a well respected school, likely more research opportunities than at your current place and some people who might be more connected to write you letters of rec. Maybe I'm over-reading, but I assume your plan is to transfer. Am I wrong?

 

[deleted158872]

... which is #13 in the nation according to US News ranking's and has a 15% acceptance rate. I currently go to a small, private school, which is top 50 in my region and has a 55% acceptance rate.

Over the course of the past semester I have been able to distinguish myself amongst my fellow students, and as a freshman have worked in our university's cadaver lab, held leadership positions in an economics forum, visited a Central American country on a medical brigade, and have obtained a paid summer research position in our university's research lab.

I will be presenting the research I am conducting this summer at our university's research symposium, and I have been selected to hold a position as a researcher in that very same lab throughout my sophomore, junior, and senior year. Presumably, by senior year I should be something of a mentor to the underclassmen, and will have developed a solid relationship with the professors guiding my research and overseeing our lab.

I have been able to crush my introductory classes and have kept a 4.0.

Do I transfer?

only if you get a full scholarship at Northwestern, or somehow the cost of attending a private school will even out

 

[Mr_Virgo]

Optimistically speaking, I could see the cost of tuition at NU raising my debt by about 65K. Do you believe it to be not worth the experience?

 

[Mr_Virgo]

Massmocha, you are correct. The plan is to transfer, but I am not one to let my ego get in the way.

That is to say that an opportunity to attend a more prestigious school will not guarantee my attendance if the said opportunity does not increase my likelihood of getting accepted into medical school, becoming a better doctor, having a more fulfilling college career, etc.

 

[deleted158872]

Optimistically speaking, I could see the cost of tuition at NU raising my debt by about 65K. Do you believe it to be not worth the experience?

Not worth it, especially for undergrad.

 

[22031 Alum]

becoming a better doctor

This doesn't happen in undergrad. Not even remotely. If that is at all a motivation for transferring, stay put.

It sounds like you are doing well at your current school, and have the potential to build a strong application. I'm a big proponent of going to the cheapest undergrad that can help you reach your goals, so in my opinion it doesn't sound like the extra 65k is worth it.

 

[efle]

I'd call $65k more debt a deal breaker for sure for most people. If money is no object you should still be careful, because a 4.0 at "top 50 region" simply doesn't predict similarly stellar grades at a national Top 20...consider how your SAT/ACT stacks up to their 98-99th percentile median. Far better to keep up your top grades and be a standout for cheap, than pay a ton to become one of the many smart kids getting their ass kicked by curves against equal peers. Of course if you feel like you want much more difficult courses then this is actually a big plus.

What made you look into transferring originally?

 

[Vain Brother]

Thanks DrHart. Vain Brother, I apologize if I did not make the question clear, but my concern revolves around whether or not it would be beneficial towards my career (i.e getting accepted into medical school) to transfer. I know Northwestern's classes will better prepare me, but at the same time I also know that the connections I could potentially make at my current university will be more impactful.

it's a personal choice. northwestern obviously is a better school and their pre-med classes might better prepare you for the MCAT. then again, maybe the classes are more difficult and would deflate your GPA a bit. also consider the fact that you'd have to start over w/r/t research and building relationships with professors. plus i assume NW is going to put you in more debt.

if you're happy at your small school and are doing well (which it sounds like you are), i'd say stay there. but again, it's a personal choice!

 

[NonTrad16]

I know Northwestern's classes will better prepare me

That seems like a stretch.

If you're happy where you are, and you have good opportunities (research, leadership), and NW would cost an additional 65k, why move? And strategically, you seem to be proud of 'distinguishing yourself', etc, and moving could very likely change that.

 

[LizzyM]

It sounds like you have a good gig at your current school and you will have faculty who know you well and who will write good LOR. That may be much less likely at NU. The additional cost is also a consideration.

About the only advantage I can see to NU is the program they have where 3rd yr undergrad students can apply for early decision and be admitted to their med school without having taken the MCAT. That can save you the cost of applying to 15 schools but it is not worth $65K in debt.

 

[DokterMom]

You may be swimming in a small pond, but within that pond, you seem to be turning into one heck of a big fish. That's worth something.

You've found an environment in which you thrive. One that is offering you excellent opportunities for research and meaningful interaction with professors who will be able and willing to support your goals. You've traveled, found employment, performed at the top of your class academically. Your school is well-regarded, even if not nationally well-known. You're in the perfect setting right now! Unless you are fairly certain you will be both equally successful and equally happy at NWU, I would turn down this transfer opportunity.

The extra prestige boost is worth something, but I don't think it will outweigh a string of LORs that will likely say "I've gotten to know Mr_Virgo well during the past three three years at Small School and know him to be one of the most outstanding students..." etc.

 

[Kochanie]

I wouldn't. I have seen many transfer students come in with 4.0s and have to retake some of those classes and get Cs. I'd look into what classes you'd have to retake because it depends on your planned major. If you're not currently a freshman, it could even delay your graduation time because we only accept one year of transfer credits.

 

[ConsultantMD]

I wouldn't. I have seen many transfer students come in with 4.0s and have to retake some of those classes and get Cs. I'd look into what classes you'd have to retake because it depends on your planned major. If your not currently a freshman, it could even delay your graduation time because we only accept one year of transfer credits.

Another alum chiming in.. If you're coming for pre med classes I think you will be disappointed. The classes are brutal since you're leaning with the brightest minds and so the exams have to be able to distill out the good from the brilliant. They are tougher than what you are used to at your school most likely.

The reason to switch to NU would be to take advantage of the awesome opportunities you have as a student. Sure, it comes at a price and yeah 65k sounds kind of steep at this point. I'd say you would be fine being a big fish in a small pond assuming you do well on the MCAT and do the right ECs. It's a question of your long term goals... Do you need to jump into an elite school at this point to make you a better med school applicant? Probably not.

 

[ridethecliche]

Med school is about being able to show that you were successful academically. If you're happy where you are right now and can continue being successful with research etc, I would stay. Your undergrad won't keep you out of top tier med schools.

If you were interested in finance or law, I would tell you to go there. At this point, you should go there if you think there will be more or better opportunities and you'll continue to be academically successful as a student there.

To be honest, I almost went to Penn State and ended up going to a 'prestigious' liberal arts college instead. My grades would have been far better at penn state and I think I would have ended up with a higher GPA and gotten into better schools.

I don't regret it since I did well this cycle. It's just something to keep in mind since grades and research matter. If you can stand out as a big fish at your current institution, that will do well for you.

 

[Mr_Virgo]

Thank you for all of the responses.

Fortunately, I was not surprised at any of the comments and completely agree with what has been said thus far. Being a big fish in a small pond is indeed very lucrative. Seeing as I come from an immigrant background however, there is something about overcoming all of the obstacles that have been placed in my way (whether it is lack of guidance/ support, or language, etc.) and obtaining a degree from one of the nation's best educational institutions that seems very lucrative as well.

It seems that is what draws me most to NU. I feel NU is an opportunity to become a creative thinker that can see past the shroud of confusion that being a first generation American brings.

Has anyone seen/ read "A River Runs Through It"? Think Norman Maclean's journey to Dartmouth. After coming back from Dartmouth, Norman's experiences there had reshaped his thinking and had made him an exemplary man, educated and all. I have begun to value that sort of creative thinking and worldliness.

I agree that the students at NU are brilliant, and I know that NU would be best for a finance/ law route. I was actually accepted to NU to study economics, which is what I may end up doing, but figured this post could help me decide whether or not it would be a viable option for a medical route as well. So far, I would not say that it isn't, but I definitely get the fact that it will be more difficult. Does assimilating amongst and competing against some of the most brilliant students in the US not count towards anything though?

 

[el_duderino]

Sounds like you made your decision. It's a bad decision in my opinion, but it sure doesn't seem like any of us are going to dissuade you.

 

[packersfans]

sounds like you have a good deal at your current school. that will give you excellent experiences which you can build on for apps. Going to Northwestern might give you nothing more than a name, as the competition for the same level experiences will be tougher.

 

[efle]

assimilating amongst and competing against some of the most brilliant students in the US not count towards anything though?

I knew that 2/3 premeds at my school (Wustl) were weeded out but chose it anyway, and took on loans to attend, for exactly this reason - I wanted to be surrounded by people that would push me to my limits. It worked out great for me and I don't for a second regret passing up the free state school options. But I also saw many good friends on my freshman dorm floor, sports team, etc who were top of their high schools fall into that 2/3rds category and give up premed, because almost everyone is hardworking and smart but less than half of each class can get MD-competitive grades. Again I'd say look to your record in high school, eg. if your SAT percentile was in the 80s there's a big risk of falling into the B-/C portion of the curves no matter how hard you work.

Again I have to ask why are you looking to transfer? Is it for ego/a desire to be more challenged? Because that really shouldn't be worth sixty grand - you still have MD school to test your mettle.

 

[DokterMom]

Does assimilating amongst and competing against some of the most brilliant students in the US not count towards anything though?

Only if you 'kick butt and take names'.

How serious are you about medicine as opposed to other career options? Do you want to stay in a certain region of the country? And would those other non-medical career options generally involve graduate school? (In which case, the best education is what you need to focus on, and a smaller school with more student-prof interaction can be invaluable.) Or will your college be the last degree on your resume? (In which case, you'll want it to be the best credential you can get, since it'll appear prominently on your resume for life.)

Normally, I'm a big fan of prestigious degrees. They open doors, and the caliber of minds challenges students to reach higher and think deeper. (But for medical school, the intense competition can reduce many highly-capable students to the bottom half of the class, effectively crushing their medical ambitions.)

But I'm also a big fan of small liberal arts colleges. They're all about the teaching and the learning, and the dedicated professors and smaller classes challenge students to reach higher and think deeper. (phrase duplication intentional) And for medical school admissions, the faculty mentoring opportunities at a small school and the opportunity to shine can be very valuable. In your first post, you've said your school is "top 50 in your region". I'm not sure quite what that means. If it's 'East Podunk State', that's one thing. If it's Reed, Agnes Scott, Kenyon, Lafayette -- that's a very different animal. Just because those schools are lesser known doesn't negate the quality of education (and mentorship) you can get there.

I get the whole 'American Dream' vision, and how a prestigious qualification is another 'jewel in the achievement crown'. But don't win the battle and lose the war. If becoming a doctor is truly what you want to do (that's another jewel in the crown, right?), then trading in your very safe current path for one that's a whole lot less certain would be a very risky move.

 

[ridethecliche]

What you say matters for econ more than it does for medicine.

For medicine this doesn't really matter unless you excel at northwestern.

 

[publichealthguy]

NU alum here. Northwestern is a great school but not worth the price tag-at least not for premed. Succeed where you are. Do not transfer.

 

[MrChance2]

.

 

[altblue]

I knew that 2/3 premeds at my school (Wustl) were weeded out but chose it anyway, and took on loans to attend, for exactly this reason - I wanted to be surrounded by people that would push me to my limits. It worked out great for me and I don't for a second regret passing up the free state school options. But I also saw many good friends on my freshman dorm floor, sports team, etc who were top of their high schools fall into that 2/3rds category and give up premed, because almost everyone is hardworking and smart but less than half of each class can get MD-competitive grades. Again I'd say look to your record in high school, eg. if your SAT percentile was in the 80s there's a big risk of falling into the B-/C portion of the curves no matter how hard you work.

Again I have to ask why are you looking to transfer? Is it for ego/a desire to be more challenged? Because that really shouldn't be worth sixty grand - you still have MD school to test your mettle.

This.

Sure, all you have to is be in the top 20-30% of your class to get an A in a lot of cases, but the bottleneck to that point becomes incredibly small when the average person had like a 3.85 or 3.9 in high school. At my old school, a CC, people receieved poor grades because they didn't work hard and weren't necessarily smart enough to make up for that. At my current school, I've seen some very smart, hardworking people switch to pre-law, public health etc. because they couldn't do signifcantly better than the top 10%, academically, of nat. science students in America - though others are doing a post-bacc...

Be careful about transfering to a difficult school OP, especially one that will give you that much debt...

 

[22031 Alum]

Does assimilating amongst and competing against some of the most brilliant students in the US not count towards anything though?

You can do that once you get to med school. Time to start thinking in the long term. Don't make decisions based on what seems appealing NOW, but could hurt your long term goals.

 

[efle]

from a top 50 school

Top 50 in his region. Likely way way below the level of places ~50 nationally like Uni Washington or U Wisconsin Madison. If he was already pulling a 4.0 at a national Top 50 then there's less to worry about moving up to Northwestern

the bottleneck to that point becomes incredibly small when the average person had like a 3.85 or 3.9 in high school

Looked it up, Northwestern doesn't publish GPA numbers but has an ACT range 31-34 (97-99th percentile).
The school ranked 47th for my region (Midwest) is Southern Illinois Uni Edwardsville, with a range 20-25 (49-79th percentile).
It appears the regional rankings exclude schools that are ranked nationally. Seems it would likely be a very big jump in difficulty.

 

[AspiringERMD]

$65,000 in extra debt and almost certainly destroying your 4.0? You would have to be crazy to transfer.

 

[RedPhys]

What you say matters for econ more than it does for medicine.

For medicine this doesn't really matter unless you excel at northwestern.

Meh, I got crushed at Cornell doing Physics, and I think the experience of being surrounded by such bright minds is what helped me the most.

I think going to NU would be good. Only OP knows if he'd be ok with the extra cost (I got great financial aid from Cornell, so finances wasn't a hindrance for me).

 

[ridethecliche]

Meh, I got crushed at Cornell doing Physics, and I think the experience of being surrounded by such bright minds is what helped me the most.

I think going to NU would be good. Only OP knows if he'd be ok with the extra cost (I got great financial aid from Cornell, so finances wasn't a hindrance for me).

I went to the best school I got into, but I also got the most money from them. I enjoyed learning from my peers in class, but there are plenty of bright minds at state schools as well. There's just a smaller % of them, but the absolute number is probably the same given the large population.

 

[Petrichor1]

meh, I really don't see how northwestern is any better than a lower ranked uni given you are challenging yourself at both. I know that research opportunities may be more medically specialized in these top ranked unis and coming from one I don't really see med school being egregiously so hard that you have to convince yourself that going to a school filled with top stat kids could make a difference in the way you perform in med school. If you pursue a very hard major where you are taking courses and studying for them regularly and they comprise of science entirely, then I would say that you are preparing for med school and that may be helpful. However, given experience of college courses, they are way more laid back compared to med school (and yea even at NW). The point of the matter is that just keep doing you and maintain your list of long-lasting activities. If you have a very good reason to transfer, then be my guest but I don't find any plus points in going to a top ranked uni for the sake of name and research.

 

[ridethecliche]

In things outside of medicine, and even for those looking for jobs before applying, the friend 'network' you have during undergrad can make life a lot easier. These are usually far better at higher ranked schools than at state schools. The career centers at top unis are also far better from my experience, though certain large state schools have tremendous alumni networks that the school takes advantage of well for jobs etc.

 

[Petrichor1]

In things outside of medicine, and even for those looking for jobs before applying, the friend 'network' you have during undergrad can make life a lot easier. These are usually far better at higher ranked schools than at state schools. The career centers at top unis are also far better from my experience, though certain large state schools have tremendous alumni networks that the school takes advantage of well for jobs etc.

I tend to think you are on your own for the most part. It matters on how willing you are to reach out for help. I can say that top ranked unis can get you hitched to a local internship or job but that is only when you try. I've been on the other side and had I not done my homework, I don't think the name or networking of my uni would have recognized me. If you believe in yourself and work proactively, nothing is farther from your reach. FYI, I still don't have a job...so there goes your assumption about networking (I did get unpaid internship though).

 

[ridethecliche]

I tend to think you are on your own for the most part. It matters on how willing you are to reach out for help. I can say that top ranked unis can get you hitched to a local internship or job but that is only when you try. I've been on the other side and had I not done my homework, I don't think the name or networking of my uni would have recognized me. If you believe in yourself and work proactively, nothing is farther from your reach. FYI, I still don't have a job...so there goes your assumption about networking (I did get unpaid internship though).

So what you're saying is that those that don't do anything when in school and should magically expect their very presence to turn into a job offer? How very fascinating... Where did I say that and how are you getting that from anything I said?

I'm saying that better ranked universities more often have deeper pockets, more resources, and more connections available to every student. Whether people decide to waste them or take advantage of those or not is not up to me.

Also, I have no idea what the point of your post is. I've read it 5 times and I still can't figure out what the heck you're trying to say. It just syntactically doesn't make sense.

 

[efle]

meh, I really don't see how northwestern is any better than a lower ranked uni given you are challenging yourself at both. I know that research opportunities may be more medically specialized in these top ranked unis and coming from one I don't really see med school being egregiously so hard that you have to convince yourself that going to a school filled with top stat kids could make a difference in the way you perform in med school. If you pursue a very hard major where you are taking courses and studying for them regularly and they comprise of science entirely, then I would say that you are preparing for med school and that may be helpful. However, given experience of college courses, they are way more laid back compared to med school (and yea even at NW). The point of the matter is that just keep doing you and maintain your list of long-lasting activities. If you have a very good reason to transfer, then be my guest but I don't find any plus points in going to a top ranked uni for the sake of name and research.

Selectivity of undergrad is ranked "highest importance" along with GPA and MCAT by private med schools (AAMC survey). Research is the extra curricular for top med schools. Two big fat pluses.

I tend to think you are on your own for the most part. It matters on how willing you are to reach out for help. I can say that top ranked unis can get you hitched to a local internship or job but that is only when you try. I've been on the other side and had I not done my homework, I don't think the name or networking of my uni would have recognized me. If you believe in yourself and work proactively, nothing is farther from your reach. FYI, I still don't have a job...so there goes your assumption about networking (I did get unpaid internship though).

wat

There's just a smaller % of them, but the absolute number is probably the same given the large population.

Honestly I don't even think this is true. For example look at the list of schools where national merit scholars matriculate, places like Northwestern and Wustl and Vandy have over 200 per while even huge and well-known state schools like Madison and Uni of Washington have less than 20 per. Utah State has 1, Uni Wyoming 4, UC Davis 1, UC Irvine 3...even in a small honors college within a random state uni I don't know how well you'd be able to reproduce the Top 20 type of peer group.

 

[ridethecliche]

Honestly I don't even think this is true. For example look at the list of schools where national merit scholars matriculate, places like Northwestern and Wustl and Vandy have over 200 per while even huge and well-known state schools like Madison and Uni of Washington have less than 20 per. Utah State has 1, Uni Wyoming 4, UC Davis 1, UC Irvine 3...even in a small honors college within a random state uni I don't know how well you'd be able to reproduce the Top 20 type of peer group.

Isn't national merit scholar from the PSAT? I think that's a poor tie in to intellect/ability. Also, so many of those large schools you're speaking of are sponsoring their own students.

In addition, the PSAT is a coachable test. Many of those schools also have students with the highest income. I'm certain that income of student's parents is a pretty big predictor here. It's not even the SAT. I don't think this proves anything...

TLDR: No one gives a crap about the PSAT.

You went to WUSTL right? The school is known for caring a lot about stats and numbers etc. While many places have thresholds for this, your institution seems to be an extreme haven for this thinking. I had a totally different attitude towards this stuff coming from a LAC background and especially now after working for 5 years. Some of the most infuriating people to work with have great numbers. I'd rather have someone with slightly less numbers doesn't want me to headdesk every waking moment at my job.
But I digress...

 

[efle]

Isn't national merit scholar from the PSAT? I think that's a poor tie in to intellect/ability. Also, so many of those large schools you're speaking of are sponsoring their own students.

In addition, the PSAT is a coachable test. Many of those schools also have students with the highest income. I'm certain that income of student's parents is a pretty big predictor here. It's not even the SAT. I don't think this proves anything...

PSAT is SAT minus the writing section (CR+M) so it correlates pretty well with intellect/academics. Institutionally sponsored means they were awarded Finalist status and the school offers to pay for some so the government can pass their funds on to a different Finalist iirc. If you look at the non-sponsored parenthesis numbers you see the same trend (now numbers in the near-200 range vs a dozen or less).

PSAT/SAT CR+M is not readily coached last I checked. National Merit scholars are definitely just a subset of the many highly capable students out there, but when in absolute numbers there's an order of magnitude less at even huge, above-average state schools it certainly challenges your original assertion, no?

 

[ridethecliche]

PSAT is SAT minus the writing section (CR+M) so it correlates pretty well with intellect/academics. Institutionally sponsored means they were awarded Finalist status and the school offers to pay for some so the government can pass their funds on to a different Finalist iirc. If you look at the non-sponsored parenthesis numbers you see the same trend (now numbers in the near-200 range vs a dozen or less).

PSAT/SAT CR+M is not readily coached last I checked. National Merit scholars are definitely just a subset of the many highly capable students out there, but when in absolute numbers there's an order of magnitude less at even huge, above-average state schools it certainly challenges your original assertion, no?

Aren't they also highly correlated to income? So...?

Re, the bold: Not in the way you're defining it, no.

I was referring to a subset of smart students that will go on to do great things and are motivated, engaging, and worth learning from. It mostly depends on how large schools facilitate the creation of small learning communities.

There was this bit recently that was also compelling.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/chadorzel/2015/04/10/why-small-colleges-are-great-for-science-students/

I can't give you the concrete metrics you're looking for because figuring it out is a grossly imperfect science.

I'm talking about two very different things: one is networking, which is something that is 'deeper' at elite schools, the other is learning communities, which is something that is dependent on the institution and how they facilitate these things. Many highly capable and smart kids I know and have learned from in my college years didn't give a crap about standardized tests or the classes they didn't care about.

 

[Petrichor1]

PSAT is SAT minus the writing section (CR+M) so it correlates pretty well with intellect/academics. Institutionally sponsored means they were awarded Finalist status and the school offers to pay for some so the government can pass their funds on to a different Finalist iirc. If you look at the non-sponsored parenthesis numbers you see the same trend (now numbers in the near-200 range vs a dozen or less).

PSAT/SAT CR+M is not readily coached last I checked. National Merit scholars are definitely just a subset of the many highly capable students out there, but when in absolute numbers there's an order of magnitude less at even huge, above-average state schools it certainly challenges your original assertion, no?

I value common sense and cooperation to be assets. When you are in the wards, a book worm is not useful and a lot of what you learn about patients doesn't come from the books but experience. Those that learn fast on their feet don't necessarily correlate with PSAT score.

 

[Petrichor1]

wat

I graduated from a similar caliber uni like WUSTL with standard stats. I have good networking. However, that doesn't mean I am guaranteed a job or something amazing. I still have to go out there and do my work. The state school some miles away pumps out engineers that score 80k salary jobs prior to graduation. Did networking help them? Yes. But the fact that they graduated from a low ranked uni really doesn't correlate with arguments following here. The point is the networking exists in strong programs...not necessarily in overall school rankings. On a continuum, all those students worked for a company or two prior to graduation and took it under their arms to obtain the fruits of their labor.

 

[efle]

Aren't they also highly correlated to income? So...?

Re, the bold: Not in the way you're defining it, no.

I was referring to a subset of smart students that will go on to do great things and are motivated, engaging, and worth learning from. It mostly depends on how large schools facilitate the creation of small learning communities.

There was this bit recently that was also compelling.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/chadorzel/2015/04/10/why-small-colleges-are-great-for-science-students/

I can't give you the concrete metrics you're looking for because figuring it out is a grossly imperfect science.

I'm talking about two very different things: one is networking, which is something that is 'deeper' at elite schools, the other is learning communities, which is something that is dependent on the institution and how they facilitate these things. Many highly capable and smart kids I know and have learned from in my college years didn't give a crap about standardized tests or the classes they didn't care about.

So I don't care if my peers are mostly privileged rich kids, only that they're super smart! I suppose I took your "bright minds at state schools as well" response to the Cornell comment incorrectly, if you meant enthusiastic learners disregard my responses since obviously SAT scores don't capture that.

I value common sense and cooperation to be assets. When you are in the wards, a book worm is not useful and a lot of what you learn about patients doesn't come from the books but experience. Those that learn fast on their feet don't necessarily correlate with PSAT score.

Never said anything about PSAT scores and physician quality, or even undergrad quality and physician quality. I swear you're reading very different things than people's posts...

I graduated from a similar caliber uni like WUSTL with standard stats. I have good networking. However, that doesn't mean I am guaranteed a job or something amazing. I still have to go out there and do my work. The state school some miles away pumps out engineers that score 80k salary jobs prior to graduation. Did networking help them? Yes. But the fact that they graduated from a low ranked uni really doesn't correlate with arguments following here. The point is the networking exists in strong programs...not necessarily in overall school rankings. On a continuum, all those students worked for a company or two prior to graduation and took it under their arms to obtain the fruits of their labor.

You went to a top 20 and don't think the name will be recognized or help you in a job search? Even locally? ("I don't think the name or networking of my uni would have recognized me..."). Damn they've been lying to those poor students planning to go right into the workforce

You went to WUSTL right? The school is known for caring a lot about stats and numbers etc. While many places have thresholds for this, your institution seems to be an extreme haven for this thinking. I had a totally different attitude towards this stuff coming from a LAC background and especially now after working for 5 years. Some of the most infuriating people to work with have great numbers. I'd rather have someone with slightly less numbers doesn't want me to headdesk every waking moment at my job.
But I digress...

Are you talking about Wustl undergrad or med? The undergrad has test scores pretty much identical to the rest of the top 20 (and best LACs) I believe, aren't they all ~32-34 ACT. The trick is to get a bunch of people with great numbers together and then pick out the ones that are also pleasant and hard working! Isn't that the whole idea of MD interviewing and admissions

 

[ridethecliche]

Yeah, the pool is deeper at top schools, but still exists at state schools etc. I think most state schools, especially those with PhD programs and med schools can assist students with getting good research opportunities and clinical experiences etc.

For med school, as was the point of this thread, there's little difference in terms of admission if the tougher school results in a gpa drop it's a bit of a wash. For finance etc, it makes a huge difference.

All else equal (grades/mcat/ec/etc) the 'better' school is better. But all else is rarely equal.

 

[efle]

For finance etc, it makes a huge difference.

Which is ridiculous! So many people half ass high school but get things together in college, it sucks their career options would be limited by where they got in at 17

 

[ridethecliche]

Which is ridiculous! So many people half ass high school but get things together in college, it sucks their career options would be limited by where they got in at 17

I'm not disagreeing with you but in the consulting world the name on the diploma means everything. It's much tougher to break in from schools where the firms don't do any recruiting.

 

[IlDestriero]

Right now you are a big fish in a small pond, sometimes that's a good thing. If you go to NW, you will probably be a small fish in the big pond.