So Lithium or Depakote for Bipolar I?

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What is your 1st line of treatment for bipolar I?


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Blitz2006

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Ok, so our institution rams down our throats that Lithium >>>>> Depakote. But as I talk to other attendings, they tell me that their residency says Depakote >>>> Lithium.

So I setup a poll and want to know,

1) Your preferred mood stabilizer for acute mania?

2) Your preferred mood stabilizer for maintenance bipolar therapy?

Any good papers/studies to read on Lithium vs. Depakote?

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For sake of argument, are you meaning for a hypothetical male with no medical problems?

1) As far as acute mania goes, doesn't really seem to matter a ton to me which you choose seeing as the antipsychotic and benzo are going to be what keeps them calm for the first couple days anyway.

Maintenance, definitely more slanted towards lithium where I am for someone who has had a clear manic episode.
 
this isn't the 1990s anymore. depakote is an anticonvulsant, not a "mood stabilizer". Drop the term from your vocabulary.

It has no role in the maintenance phase of bipolar disorder (check out the 100 papers for relevant reading material including the Cipriani meta-analysis, and the BALANCE trial). It has no role in the treatment of bipolar depression. It works more quickly than lithium in the acute phase of mania, and may be more effective in mixed states, and individuals with rapid-cycling. However you have to take into consideration that rapid-cycling was a term coined to describe a phase of illness who did not respond as well to lithium. It is not a subtype of bipolar disorder, nor is it a course specifier, merely a phase of the illness that some people experience. Depakote in itself is not effective in the treatment of the rapid-cycling phase of bipolar disorder, merely more effective than lithium in the treatment of acute mania during the rapid cycling phase. Depakote should not be used in women of childbearing age. Quite apart from its teratogenicity is also the risk of developing polycystic ovarian syndrome.

Nowadays there is a creeping trend of using neuroleptics in mania, often at way too high doses. They work more quickly and are more effective at aborting manic episode. That said, they should not be used simply to knock the person out - acute mania is one of the good indications for being very liberal with your benzos. This is a minority view, but I am happy to prescribe benzodiazepine monotherapy to manic patients declining other treatments.
 
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this isn't the 1990s anymore. depakote is an anticonvulsant, not a "mood stabilizer". Drop the term from your vocabulary.

It has no role in the maintenance phase of bipolar disorder (check out the 100 papers for relevant reading material including the Cipriani meta-analysis, and the BALANCE trial). It has no role in the treatment of bipolar depression. It works more quickly than lithium in the acute phase of mania, and may be more effective in mixed states, and individuals with rapid-cycling. However you have to take into consideration that rapid-cycling was a term coined to describe a phase of illness who did not respond as well to lithium. It is not a subtype of bipolar disorder, nor is it a course specifier, merely a phase of the illness that some people experience. Depakote in itself is not effective in the treatment of the rapid-cycling phase of bipolar disorder, merely more effective than lithium in the treatment of acute mania during the rapid cycling phase. Depakote should not be used in women of childbearing age. Quite apart from its teratogenicity is also the risk of developing polycystic ovarian syndrome.

Nowadays there is a creeping trend of using neuroleptics in mania, often at way too high doses. They work more quickly and are more effective at aborting manic episode. That said, they should not be used simply to knock the person out - acute mania is one of the good indications for being very liberal with your benzos. This is a minority view, but I am happy to prescribe benzodiazepine monotherapy to manic patients declining other treatments.
What do you use for maintenance if a person has bad kidneys?
 
(According to a few lectures we had on this recently) IIRC only Lithium has evidence for preventing depressive episodes, which are the true source of chronic morbidity in BPAD. And in agreement with splik, those attendings also recommended depakote only for treatment of acute mania.
 
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Its a bit edgy but I think 2nd gen AP are probably the overall best treatment for BD if you are limiting yourself to choosing a single drug. Certainly in the acute setting they are and their evidence for reducing depressive episodes is also the best.
 
In adult residency we used a crap ton of depakote for the manic patients algonside a SGA, with benzos added on sometimes as well (and in some cases even liquid benadryl since it apparently has some alcohol in it, so this was an additional way of also getting them additional GABA when they were on high benzo doses and still manic). But we were taught that since bipolar d/o patients spend the vast majority of their time in the depressed phase, lithium or a SGA should be used over depakote.

If the patient was manic and pregnant, we would use haldol, and if that didn't work, ECT.

I agree that depakote shouldn't be used for maintenance, for many reasons.
 
What do you use for maintenance if a person has bad kidneys?
unlike depakote, there are several antipsychotics that are licensed and have some evidence for use in the maintenance phase of bipolar disorder. Also if someone did benefit from lithium and then develops bad kidneys (either because of lithium or something else) will discuss with the patient whether they would want to contiune and closely collaborate with nephrology. patients often dont tend to do well when you discontinue their lithium (if they responded to it) and try and replace it with something else. In fact there is a real phenomena of worsening of the course of bipolar disorder, and increased risk of suicide when discontinuing lithium, that may be worse than if the patient was never started on lithium at all.

Also lamictal does have a role in the maintenance phase of bipolar I disorder. Alot of people did not understand the data and thought it was good for bipolar II (which is not based on evidence) or bipolar depression (which is not supported by the evidence). in the 2 maintenance phase RCTs, one following a manic episode, and one following a depressive episode, lamictal reduced time to relapse in both studies. This was primarily accounted for by prolonging duration to depressive relapse (which should not be dismissed given the depressive phase outweighs the manic phase of the illness by a factor of 3) but a pooled analysis of the 2 RCTs showed that it also prolonged time to relapse to mania too.

of note, UptoDate actually recommends depakote (and not lithium) as a first-line treatment for the maintenance phase of bipolar disorder, further underscoring how useless UptoDate is for psychiatry, and what happens when you have a bunch of senile psychiatrists who spent their careers bankrolled by pharma writing these things
 
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Awesome, glad to know that Lithium is the way to go.

So if lithium for maintenance is not working.....whats 2nd choice? Tegretol?
 
so carbamazepine became popular in the 1980s, and was even licensed in the UK for "manic-depressive illness unresponsive to lithium" because of the work of Robert Post, who proposed the now debunked sensitization and kindling hypothesis, comparing manic depression to epilepsy. It does work in acute mania, but I am not impressed with the evidence for the maintenance phase. Also you should do HLE B*1502 screening in asians because of their risk of toxic epidermal necrolysis. I think nowadays, people prefer to use oxcarbazepine as you dont have all the issues with CYP 3A4 induction and it chewing up drugs (including itself). As discussed above, atypical antipsychotics and lamictal in the maintenance phase which is where the evidence is. Most patients can't cope with one drug anyway so often its lithium + something.

personally, and I appreciate this is a minority view, I try to avoid prescribing any drugs at all in the maintenance phase of bipolar disorder. I am not convinced it is needed in the majority of cases. This was a big point of contention in the 1960s, and the continuation advocates won because people just got worse when you took them off lithium. But that may actually be an artifact of drug withdrawal rather than the illness. Kraepelin's life charts of patients long before there were any drugs show that for many of his patients the natural course of the illness can include many years (in some cases 20+) without an episode. And of course not everyone who has a manic episode has another one. Following a manic episode, I will continue drugs for 12 months (as the data suggests the risk of relapse during that period is 50% and then begins to trail off) and then re-assess.
 
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(According to a few lectures we had on this recently) IIRC only Lithium has evidence for preventing depressive episodes, which are the true source of chronic morbidity in BPAD. And in agreement with splik, those attendings also recommended depakote only for treatment of acute mania.

I think the evidence for Lithium is mostly for mania and not depression, even though it decreases suicidality.

It's shocking to see how many patients are maintained on depakote even though it has very little evidence for maintenance vs lithium.

SGA do as well as Lithium, particularly Zyprexa.
 
I think nowadays, people prefer to use oxcarbazepine as you dont have all the issues with CYP 3A4 induction and it chewing up drugs (including itself).
Last I looked, there wasn't really any evidence for oxcarbazepine. Has that changed?
 
so carbamazepine became popular in the 1980s, and was even licensed in the UK for "manic-depressive illness unresponsive to lithium" because of the work of Robert Post, who proposed the now debunked sensitization and kindling hypothesis, comparing manic depression to epilepsy. It does work in acute mania, but I am not impressed with the evidence for the maintenance phase. Also you should do HLE B*1502 screening in asians because of their risk of toxic epidermal necrolysis. I think nowadays, people prefer to use oxcarbazepine as you dont have all the issues with CYP 3A4 induction and it chewing up drugs (including itself). As discussed above, atypical antipsychotics and lamictal in the maintenance phase which is where the evidence is. Most patients can't cope with one drug anyway so often its lithium + something.

personally, and I appreciate this is a minority view, I try to avoid prescribing any drugs at all in the maintenance phase of bipolar disorder. I am not convinced it is needed in the majority of cases. This was a big point of contention in the 1960s, and the continuation advocates won because people just got worse when you took them off lithium. But that may actually be an artifact of drug withdrawal rather than the illness. Kraepelin's life charts of patients long before there were any drugs show that for many of his patients the natural course of the illness can include many years (in some cases 20+) without an episode. And of course not everyone who has a manic episode has another one. Following a manic episode, I will continue drugs for 12 months (as the data suggests the risk of relapse during that period is 50% and then begins to trail off) and then re-assess.
I have always thought this would make sense and seen research to support decreasing medications between episodes and also it makes logical sense to treat an episodic illness that way. I have never seen it happen in the real world without the patient initiating it and often meeting resistance from the doctor. Do you have a similar perspective on psychosis or depressive disorders as I have seen conflicting evidence on maintenance of those as well?
 
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Last I looked, there wasn't really any evidence for oxcarbazepine. Has that changed?
no there isnt really, it's based on the fact that it's basically carbamazepine without the enzyme inducing powers, so people have extrapolated from the CBZ data. It's not a first or second line choice, so once you starting going down your options, it's reasonable to expect that the evidnece may not be as good and you're getting a bit more desperate to find something. Personally have rarely used it
 
So basically for maintenance, Lithium 1st line, if not working, add on atypical, if that doesn't work, switch to lamictal.

For acute: Depakote or atypical +/- benzo.

So lets say I start them on Depakote for acute mania for a few days, do I then transition them/switch them to lithium? Cause what happens in the real world is that once Depakote is started in the ER, they end up being discharged on it and on the medication for rest of their life...
 
I've read several guidelines.

Thats not the point of posting here on SDN. I ask here on SDN to see what people actually do in the real world, and what real world results do people find.

I actually refer to this paper during residency for bipolar treatment:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3219517/
 
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of note, UptoDate actually recommends depakote (and not lithium) as a first-line treatment for the maintenance phase of bipolar disorder, further underscoring how useless UptoDate is for psychiatry, and what happens when you have a bunch of senile psychiatrists who spent their careers bankrolled by pharma writing these things
You're too negative on depakote for maintenance therapy. I've found about equal efficacy with it and lithium but most people tolerate depakote better. The literature is fairly mixed.
 
what people do in the real world is a complete **** show and includes prescribing multiple antipsychotics, anticonvulsants (including things like gabapentin and topiamate which have no role in the treatment of bipolar disorder), and often continuing people on antidepressants even during manic episodes or in the maintenance phase. In the real world lithium is underutilized and you will see depakote used more, including inappropriately in women of childbearing age. There are also clear racial differences. Black patients are less likely to receive lithium, and more likely to receive conventional neuroleptics than are white patients. Most patients with bipolar I disorder receive 4 or more medications in a 12 month period. polypharmacy is the rule, not the exception (and may well be indicated).
 
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Anybody have any thoughts on the piece below:

https://joannamoncrieff.com/2015/07/01/reasons-not-to-believe-in-lithium/

Haven't had a chance to review the sources she cited yet. After seeing several patients with ESRD due to Lithium in my residence I am wary of Lithium.
I personally know her, and she is known to be critical of all psychiatric drugs and has written many papers on the limits of the evidence base for psychiatric drugs and how the harms have been minimized.

Most of what she says is spot on. As I mentioned above, it is quite clear that people who stop lithium are worse off. What is not clear is whether that is because of withdrawal from the drug or the illness itself (knowing as we do many people without any drugs can go many, many years without any recurrence).

The main point I take issue with is she claims there is nothing about lithium, other than its sedative properties which are helpful. That is just categorically untrue and you don't need an RCT to show that. the initial Cade Study of lithium from 1949 compared depressives, manics, and schizophrenics. They received toxic doses. The manics were the only ones to achieve relief with lithium and some of the patients had been manic for years. They had been on many sedative drugs (sedatives have long existed) and not improved, and the fact that the schizophrenics did not get a benefit, shows that this was more that a sedative property of the drug. For a minority of individuals with manic-depressive illness, lithium is to put it simply, a wonder drug. Not most people, but for quite a few. Strong family history of manic depressive, a manic predominant illness, and MDE course, the absence of rapid cycling, and the absence of any prior trials of antidepressants (people who receive antidepressants respond more poorly to lithium) are good predictors of treatment response.

Partly based on Moncrieff's work, and my own clinical experience, I take the approach (as described above) of avoiding using medications for maintenance as far as possible. I do not believe that it is necessary in the majority of cases. As this is a minority opinion it is important that you discuss this with the patient, and document it, having given the patient a choice about the appropriate strategy, and justify why, with appropriate monitoring (and where appropriate psychotherapy), you are forgoing the recommended practice of maintenance medications. I also provide "rescue kits" of antipsychotics and benzodiazepines that they can take if they recognize they are becoming manic. Contrary to popular belief, patients know when they are becoming manic (converely, patients don't know when they are becoming depressed). Unfortunately they may enjoy the early phase and forgo medication. This is why I as far as possible enlist the support of family and provide them with education about recognizing early warning signs, and how to start medications.

in terms of ESRD - this really only occurs when people are receiving too high doses, are not receiving appropriate monitoring, are unreliable with the medications etc. Even in those patients the risk <1%. With careful monitoring, and guidance, the risk is much less. Unfortunately, the US is way behind the times in terms of adequately monitoring these things and provide good guidance to patients on lithium. Another point to mention is that in the US 0.8-1.2mEq/L is taken as the standard level. This is too high. The data, and what is done in the rest of world suggest 0.6-1.0 is the reasonable therapeutic range in patients in manic depressive illness. for recurrent unipolar depressives, 0.4-0.6 is the recommended therapeutic range.
 
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what people do in the real world is a complete **** show and includes prescribing multiple antipsychotics, anticonvulsants (including things like gabapentin and topiamate which have no role in the treatment of bipolar disorder), and often continuing people on antidepressants even during manic episodes or in the maintenance phase. In the real world lithium is underutilized and you will see depakote used more, including inappropriately in women of childbearing age. There are also clear racial differences. Black patients are less likely to receive lithium, and more likely to receive conventional neuroleptics than are white patients. Most patients with bipolar I disorder receive 4 or more medications in a 12 month period. polypharmacy is the rule, not the exception (and may well be indicated).

Fair enough, but this is why I enjoy addressing these topics on SDN, as it stimulates discussions like these. And when I say "real world", I mean what ppl on SDN do, and usually if someone has a ridiculous thought process, it is vetoed by others on a thread.

I'm not saying I use these threads as "evidence based medicine", but I do appreciate the opinions/discussions it offers.
 
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I remember using far more sodium valproate in training then I do nowadays, but I think this was due to the nature of the patient population. Those admitted to the public system were generally the most severe cases, many came in after suicidal attempts so Lithium was avoided due to the potential overdose risks, or they might have also been floridly psychotic making olanzapine the initial drug of choice. Overall our patients were typically less functional, had less supports, had more compliance issues and often lost to followup, so trusting them to get regular blood levels and monitoring of physical complications was probably another factor in seeing greater prescribing compared to lithium.

Goes without saying that the more familiar you are with a medication, the more comfortable you are prescribing it. We would also see valproate being used as a prophylactic antiepileptic for those on high clozapine doses. I did find it quite useful for very aggressive, agitated or impulsive patients or in low doses for the elderly with BPSD, but I don’t tend to see many of these kinds of patients anymore.

I definitely use more Lithium in my private work, and again it comes down to the patient population being more reliable. As poor sleep is usually an issue, the addition of an SGA or benzodiazepine is often indicated both in the short term and as part of a relapse prevention strategy.
 
This is my go to (recent, practical guidelines from some big names without COI issues): https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26580001

For acute mania, depending on severity and if there is a psychotic component or not, I like Lithium +/- antipsychotic (which can vary for a lot of reasons) and sometimes a benzo. I will rarely use Depakote because of the side effect profile. For severe, treatment resistant mania (which is loosely defined in the literature), ECT and/or Clozapine are good.

For maintenance I prefer lithium or lamictal monotherapy if compliance is not an issue, but in severely manic patients (especially the younger ones who likely won't develop insight until they get hospitalized a few more times) I like Invega Sustenna or Abilify Aristada (with the outpatient doctor making changes). To Splik's point some patients do not need to be on any meds when euthymic; however, this requires careful discussion, insight, social support (so other people can recognize symptoms), etc etc.

Things I don't use: Gabapentin, Topirimate. I would very rarely use Tegretol or Trileptal
 
Splik is doing a good job, although I'm not absolutely sharing his minority opinions. You can draw your own conclusions, but here are some important things:
1. Bipolar disorder is difficult to treat.
2. Lithium is definitely underutilized.
3. Data for medications in bipolar disorder is very limited and needs to be looked at in context of the phase of someone's illness.
4. While I agree that neuroleptics tend to escalate to needlessly high doses, I do not find this specific to bipolar disorder. This finding illustrates unrealistic treatment expectations and lack of realistic risk/benefit analyses in treatment.

Personally, I see neuroleptics and lithium as first-line meds in nearly every situation and other treatments as situational, adjunctive, or attempts at treatment in the setting of treatment-resistance or contraindication; in those cases, though, a realistic evaluation of goals and expected efficacy is needed.
 
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I personally know her, and she is known to be critical of all psychiatric drugs and has written many papers on the limits of the evidence base for psychiatric drugs and how the harms have been minimized.

Most of what she says is spot on. As I mentioned above, it is quite clear that people who stop lithium are worse off. What is not clear is whether that is because of withdrawal from the drug or the illness itself (knowing as we do many people without any drugs can go many, many years without any recurrence).

The main point I take issue with is she claims there is nothing about lithium, other than its sedative properties which are helpful. That is just categorically untrue and you don't need an RCT to show that. the initial Cade Study of lithium from 1949 compared depressives, manics, and schizophrenics. They received toxic doses. The manics were the only ones to achieve relief with lithium and some of the patients had been manic for years. They had been on many sedative drugs (sedatives have long existed) and not improved, and the fact that the schizophrenics did not get a benefit, shows that this was more that a sedative property of the drug. For a minority of individuals with manic-depressive illness, lithium is to put it simply, a wonder drug. Not most people, but for quite a few. Strong family history of manic depressive, a manic predominant illness, and MDE course, the absence of rapid cycling, and the absence of any prior trials of antidepressants (people who receive antidepressants respond more poorly to lithium) are good predictors of treatment response.

Partly based on Moncrieff's work, and my own clinical experience, I take the approach (as described above) of avoiding using medications for maintenance as far as possible. I do not believe that it is necessary in the majority of cases. As this is a minority opinion it is important that you discuss this with the patient, and document it, having given the patient a choice about the appropriate strategy, and justify why, with appropriate monitoring (and where appropriate psychotherapy), you are forgoing the recommended practice of maintenance medications. I also provide "rescue kits" of antipsychotics and benzodiazepines that they can take if they recognize they are becoming manic. Contrary to popular belief, patients know when they are becoming manic (converely, patients don't know when they are becoming depressed). Unfortunately they may enjoy the early phase and forgo medication. This is why I as far as possible enlist the support of family and provide them with education about recognizing early warning signs, and how to start medications.

in terms of ESRD - this really only occurs when people are receiving too high doses, are not receiving appropriate monitoring, are unreliable with the medications etc. Even in those patients the risk <1%. With careful monitoring, and guidance, the risk is much less. Unfortunately, the US is way behind the times in terms of adequately monitoring these things and provide good guidance to patients on lithium. Another point to mention is that in the US 0.8-1.2mEq/L is taken as the standard level. This is too high. The data, and what is done in the rest of world suggest 0.6-1.0 is the reasonable therapeutic range in patients in manic depressive illness. for recurrent unipolar depressives, 0.4-0.6 is the recommended therapeutic range.
So does Dr. Moncrieff use psychiatric medications in her practice? I have read that she would never use or take antidepressants. Was wondering what medications she does use.
 
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