Stanford, Columbia, Penn Medical Schools Expand the Exodus From U.S. News Ranking

[EdgeTrimmer]

There are medical outcomes riding in this. So yeah

How much improvement is seen since they came up with these policies?

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[gyngyn]

Those are good efforts but i see more upper class URMs getting advantage over poor URMs since schools May go for optics than actual diversity.

Citation please.

 

[deleted1119806]

Those are good efforts but i see more upper class URMs getting advantage over poor URMs since schools May go for optics than actual diversity.

exactly.

 

[LizzyM]

How much improvement is seen since they came up with these policies?

Trends in Racial/Ethnic Representation Among US Medical Students

This cross-sectional study examines trends in racial/ethnic representation among US medical school applicants and matriculants relative to the overall age-adjusted US population.

jamanetwork.com

" In this cross-sectional study of self-reported race/ethnicity of US medical school matriculants from 2002 to 2017, numbers and proportions of black, Hispanic, and American Indian or Alaska Native medical school matriculants increased, but at a rate slower than their age-matched counterparts in the US population, resulting in increased underrepresentation."

 

[deleted1065184]

Those are good efforts but i see more upper class URMs getting advantage over poor URMs since schools May go for optics than actual diversity.

Anecdotally, this does seem to be the case at many institutions. I am URM and grew up in a working class family in the rural Deep South. The vast majority of students from my racial demographic at my school are the children of immigrant physicians (many of whom received their degree(s) prior to arriving in the US) or otherwise wealthy professionals. And I would not be surprised if this is the case to some degree across the board, because although finances and race often go hand-in-hand, they are not mutually inclusive. Classism is prevalent within all racial groups. I am very much an outlier, especially at my school.

However, despite these flaws (which I do believe need to be addressed), we still have strong evidence that these URM physicians are much more likely to practice medicine in underserved/marginalized areas and have comparatively better patient outcomes within their respective racial/ethnic groups.

Thus, if it is indeed the case that the majority of URM students admitted are comparatively wealthy (not sure if there are studies to support this, but anecdotally it certainly seems so), it doesn't mean that we stop considering race. It means we should become more granular (i.e. I'd bet the farm that Nigerians/Ghanaians are not underrepresented relative to their proportion of the US population, but generational Afro-Americans and certain Afro-Caribbeans most certainly are).

Relatedly, the conversation of granularity should be discussed more prevalently with regard to Asian students too. Some subgroups are overrepresented relative to their US population, but several others such as Hmong, Cambodian, Laotian, Thai, etc most certainly are not. As with Black people, Asians are not a monolith either.

 

[Med Ed]

Those are good efforts but i see more upper class URMs getting advantage over poor URMs since schools May go for optics than actual diversity.

What percentage of your class is rich URMs?

 

[Perlman123]

Anecdotally, this does seem to be the case at many institutions. I am URM and grew up in a working class family in the rural Deep South. The vast majority of students from my racial demographic at my school are the children of immigrant physicians (many of whom received their degree(s) prior to arriving in the US) or otherwise wealthy professionals. And I would not be surprised if this is the case to some degree across the board, because although finances and race often go hand-in-hand, they are not mutually inclusive. Classism is prevalent within all racial groups. I am very much an outlier, especially at my school.

However, despite these flaws (which I do believe need to be addressed), we still have strong evidence that these URM physicians are much more likely to practice medicine in underserved/marginalized areas and have comparatively better patient outcomes within their respective racial/ethnic groups.

Thus, if it is indeed the case that the majority of URM students admitted are comparatively wealthy (not sure if there are studies to support this, but anecdotally it certainly seems so), it doesn't mean that we stop considering race. It means we should become more granular (i.e. I'd bet the farm that Nigerians/Ghanaians are not underrepresented relative to their proportion of the US population, but generational Afro-Americans and certain Afro-Caribbeans most certainly are).

Relatedly, the conversation of granularity should be discussed more prevalently with regard to Asian students too. Some subgroups are overrepresented relative to their US population, but several others such as Hmong, Cambodian, Laotian, Thai, etc most certainly are not. As with Black people, Asians are not a monolith either.

What's the effect size though? How more likely is URM serving in their community. And what's missing in these conversation is, are we considering other alternatives. Why is affirmative action always the only options being discussed, when we are explore other options that might be less controversial.

 

[Perlman123]

When you say “holistic recruitment “, do you mean the following? 1. Writing an essay on why they want to become NBA , NFL players and what they like about the game. 2. What life experiences led them to basketball and football. 3. Write team specific secondary essays on why they want to play for that team. 4. How they contribute to the diversity of the team. and their perspectives, viewpoints and opinions about the game. 5. How many years they volunteered at the games, carrying drinks for the players, cleaning floors etc. 6. Get recommendation letters from the coaches. 7. Did they do any research on how to play basketball and football. 8. Did they overcome any adversity like lack of height , obesity etc . 9. Did they serve the underrepresented communities in NBA/NFL like Asian Americans and Hispanic?

If yes, I agree that it will enrich the watching experience of all the spectators. There is also a study showing that the spectators enjoy the game the most when they see players who look like them, play the game.

Just kidding guys …

Just kidding but really highlights the absurdity of the whole thing

 

[Perlman123]

somebody does not understand that this conversation is about systemic issues. You keep bringing up anecdotes about how people with little resources on r/mcat do well anyways. That's like a researcher getting a result they don't like when looking at an experiment with n=100, and instead cherry picking two mice who behaved in the way that supports what they think. You don't like studies, and instead base your opinion on extremely limited personal data. You have to see how that's flawed.
If people with low ses systemically score worse than people with high ses, than it has to be A) the system benefits those with more resources or B) poor people are inherently worse at these tests.
It seems absurd that you don't recognize that not having to work full time would obviously make it easier to do well on a test, without reflecting someone's inherent ability to be a good doctor.

But you see systemic issue working in every way. Like starting in your womb, SES affects you in a number of way. e.g. amount of lead in your household, or if your mom drink or smoke while you are just a fetus. Just because a low SES student get lower MCAT score doesn't necessarily mean it's because of lack of MCAT resources. It can be, but studies have shown that high SES and low SES students use the same khan academy resources.

The thing is there's no way to completely remove the influence of SES in pretty much everything in life. From volunteering opportunities to professional connection and how gorgeous you look, SES is always going to matter. But that's why standardized testing is the most fair. Even though everyone might not start from the same place, we all have the same resources to succeed. It's not a perfect system but it's better than relying on some subjective measures that can be gamed and cheated by people with high SES.

 

[Perlman123]

This sums up beautifully why our college admission process is screwed up. Colleges are here to serve the students, students are not here to serve colleges. At least, it is the case in the rest of the world. That’s why their process is simple and seamless.

That's one thing I realized recently. We are just here to make the schools look good. If you ask me they are kinda full of themselves. I mean they can do that give we give them the power. But why do schools think they are the guardian of racial quotas in society. Like shouldn't that be left to the democracy? Like voters should decide how to allocate funds to solve this issue. Like maybe voters think that it's better to improve preK - 12 education first? It's the responsibility of the state to regulate healthcare after all, not medical school

 

[Frigidcold]

That's one thing I realized recently. We are just here to make the schools look good. If you ask me they are kinda full of themselves. I mean they can do that give we give them the power. But why do schools think they are the guardian of racial quotas in society. Like shouldn't that be left to the democracy? Like voters should decide how to allocate funds to solve this issue. Like maybe voters think that it's better to improve preK - 12 education first? It's the responsibility of the state to regulate healthcare after all, not medical school

Voters have no idea how to allocate funds to solve this issue. Obviously it would be preferable and less divisive to normalize opportunities before the point of application, but doing that is a much more complex fix than what is currently being done.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

What percentage of your class is rich URMs?

Will ask my kid and get back to you ☺️

 

[gyngyn]

What percentage of your class is rich URMs?

He's a Dad...

 

[deleted1156722]

Reviewing this excellent thread with so many diverse viewpoints and commentary! I especially enjoyed reading some of the nuanced and clever responses between “Srirachamayonnaise” and “edgetrimmer” and “IaminDer”, and of course the well-balanced approach by the moderators.

I have also gone back and reviewed some of the other chats and interesting threads on SDN premed and came away impressed from the richness of the dialogue here.
However I am disappointed that “Srirachamayonnaise” account has been removed and not allowed to post, although I don’t see any wrong post from this person based on my review- just clever and sometimes tongue-in-cheek humor that may not appeal to all.
IMHO, whenever any kind of an intelligent and thoughtful voice ( even if you don’t agree with their opinion) is suppressed, it takes away the diversity and important perspectives from the chat.
And please note that I don’t know this person or have any connection in any way, but am beyond impressed with their 2 year posts on this forum and think this person has an interesting POV that is rare and should be encouraged and not suppressed.

Can we vote to bring “Srirachamayonnaise” back please?

 

[Goro]

Reviewing this excellent thread with so many diverse viewpoints and commentary! I especially enjoyed reading some of the nuanced and clever responses between “Srirachamayonnaise” and “edgetrimmer” and “IaminDer”, and of course the well-balanced approach by the moderators.

I have also gone back and reviewed some of the other chats and interesting threads on SDN premed and came away impressed from the richness of the dialogue here.
However I am disappointed that “Srirachamayonnaise” account has been removed and not allowed to post, although I don’t see any wrong post from this person based on my review- just clever and sometimes tongue-in-cheek humor that may not appeal to all.
IMHO, whenever any kind of an intelligent and thoughtful voice ( even if you don’t agree with their opinion) is suppressed, it takes away the diversity and important perspectives from the chat.
And please note that I don’t know this person or have any connection in any way, but am beyond impressed with their 2 year posts on this forum and think this person has an interesting POV that is rare and should be encouraged and not suppressed.

Can we vote to bring “Srirachamayonnaise” back please?

Not a moderator, but when one engages in TOS violations that yield a Banhammer smack, which nets a place in the timeout box, and then said SDNer continues to engage in the same behavior, despite multiple warnings, then they get banned.

Recidivism is not viewed highly on SDN. Gets people kicked out of medical school too.

 

[deleted1156722]

Not a moderator, but when one engages in TOS violations that yield a Banhammer smack, which nets a place in the timeout box, and then said SDNer continues to engage in the same behavior, despite multiple warnings, then they get banned.

Recidivism is not viewed highly on SDN. Gets people kicked out of medical school too.

Thank you for your response. I reviewed the TOS agreement on SDN and it appears as a subjective assessment based on perceived offense. I didn’t gather any such violation/inappropriate posts to invoke such strong actions on SDN from this person based on my review of their posts here, and therefore I am sincerely questioning this ban. “Lift every voice and sing”… Every voice is important and none is to be stifled.

4.1 SDN DOES NOT REVIEW ANY COMMUNICATIONS OR MATERIALS POSTED OR UPLOADED TO SDN’S SITE by users and is not responsible for the content of these communications and materials. However, SDN reserves the right after being notified by a third party to block or remove communications or materials that it determines, in SDN’s sole discretion, to be:
(a) abusive, libelous, defamatory, obscene, offensive, and/or harmful;
(b) fraudulent, deceptive, or misleading;
(c) in violation of a copyright or trademark, other intellectual property right of another; or
(d) is offensive or otherwise unacceptable to SDN and its mission statement.

 

[LizzyM]

Thank you for your response. I reviewed the TOS agreement on SDN and it appears as a subjective assessment based on perceived offense. I didn’t gather any such violation/inappropriate posts to invoke such strong actions on SDN from this person based on my review of their posts here, and therefore I am sincerely questioning this ban. “Lift every voice and sing”… Every voice is important and none is to be stifled.

4.1 SDN DOES NOT REVIEW ANY COMMUNICATIONS OR MATERIALS POSTED OR UPLOADED TO SDN’S SITE by users and is not responsible for the content of these communications and materials. However, SDN reserves the right after being notified by a third party to block or remove communications or materials that it determines, in SDN’s sole discretion, to be:
(a) abusive, libelous, defamatory, obscene, offensive, and/or harmful;
(b) fraudulent, deceptive, or misleading;
(c) in violation of a copyright or trademark, other intellectual property right of another; or
(d) is offensive or otherwise unacceptable to SDN and its mission statement.

Something offensive, deceptive, etc can be taken down so you would not find it in a search of that individual's post history. It is also possible that private messages formed the basis of a decision to warn and later ban an individual who sends inappropriate content or behaves badly.
I don't know anything about this particular case and I'm not a moderator but I've been here long enough to know how the terms of service work.

 

[senecca]

Don't worry about it too much. The applicant pool has a certain number of people who only excel at standardized testing, and they're fairly easy to spot.

Even if he makes it in somewhere, the road will be a long one, and bewildering.

Please do not make assumptions like you make assumptions on the standardized tests .

 

[senecca]

Not quite. A true quota system would generate a pre-determined class composition without much thought. Want 10% of your class to be Black students? Then hold 10% of your seats for Black applicants. The only way it doesn't work is if you don't have enough Black applicants to fill those seats.

The LCME has taken a different approach, where "each medical school is required to (1) identify diversity categories that motivate its mission and reflect its environment and (2) use those categories to implement programs to promote diverse representation of students and faculty."

What you really have to show is that you've got active recruitment efforts that target your chosen diversity categories. The ultimate success of those efforts cannot be overlooked, but given the idiosyncrasies if each school's mission, applicant pool, and admissions committee, it becomes somewhat secondary. So you can want at least 10% of your seats occupied by Black students, and you can go on a campaign to recruit Black applicants, and you can be happy of you hit at last 10%, but no one is going to penalize you if you don't, as long as you're trying.

As long as you ask for race, income, zip code in your application, what is the purpose other than quota ?

 

[gyngyn]

We would prefer to keep this thread open. Personal grievances do not promote dialogue.
Please keep the interchange free of personal bias.

 

[bob12364747474]

Thank you for your response. I reviewed the TOS agreement on SDN and it appears as a subjective assessment based on perceived offense. I didn’t gather any such violation/inappropriate posts to invoke such strong actions on SDN from this person based on my review of their posts here, and therefore I am sincerely questioning this ban. “Lift every voice and sing”… Every voice is important and none is to be stifled.

4.1 SDN DOES NOT REVIEW ANY COMMUNICATIONS OR MATERIALS POSTED OR UPLOADED TO SDN’S SITE by users and is not responsible for the content of these communications and materials. However, SDN reserves the right after being notified by a third party to block or remove communications or materials that it determines, in SDN’s sole discretion, to be:
(a) abusive, libelous, defamatory, obscene, offensive, and/or harmful;
(b) fraudulent, deceptive, or misleading;
(c) in violation of a copyright or trademark, other intellectual property right of another; or
(d) is offensive or otherwise unacceptable to SDN and its mission statement.

Looks pretty obvious that you're Srirachamayonnaise

 

[deleted1156722]

Looks pretty obvious that you're Srirachamayonnaise

Please don’t make false judgement or assumptions. I am a genuine proponent of free speech and believe that in this current charged and politically divided environment and “cancel-culture” world, we just have to pause and question some actions and speak up when things don’t make sense. However, the answers above from LizzyM and Goro look reasonable, and we shall all move on with the goal of keeping this thread focused on what it started out to be…Thanks for your consideration.

 

[deleted1156722]

Going back to the topic thread, Why has the exodus from the US News paused after the initial “unilateral disarmament” by so many top law and med schools? What about the rest of the schools? Maybe they are testing the water… or waiting for the US Supreme Court verdict on Affirmative Action before they roll their dice?

 

[LizzyM]

As long as you ask for race, income, zip code in your application, what is the purpose other than quota ?

The problem with not asking for race is that it makes it very easy to discriminate on the basis of race without those discriminated against to be able to prove it.

As you point out, even things as simple as name and address could be used to surmise one's race and ethnicity.

 

[deleted1156722]

The problem with not asking for race is that it makes it very easy to discriminate on the basis of race without those discriminated against to be able to prove it.

As you point out, even things as simple as name and address could be used to surmise one's race and ethnicity.

LizzyM, I avidly listened to the entire SC arguments lasting 5+ hours and understood that the Supreme Court had rejected racial classifications/ Box-checking in marriage, jury duty selection and even assignment of children to elementary school districts.
Then why do we need the “box checking” of race in college admissions? It is certainly true that they could pick up on the race with name or personal story or during the interview process etc… but then the colleges would not be able to quickly screen the thousands of applications with an easy-sort program by choosing the preliminary screen with MCAT/GPA/Race as is being done now, and then get their candidates shortlisted for the next step for human screeners. That would have to “humanly and impossibly” screen the nearly 50,000 undergrad applications or 15,000 med school admissions- thus checking the race box is the easiest and the most viable solution for the colleges even though it is discriminatory for the applicants.

 

[Goro]

The box checking is for demographic info, for one.

 

[Nontrad_FL_LGBT]

... but then the colleges would not be able to quickly screen the thousands of applications with an easy-sort program by choosing the preliminary screen with MCAT/GPA/Race as is being done now, and then get their candidates shortlisted for the next step for human screeners.

I'm pretty sure nobody gets screened out by race alone. I imagine there may be different filters for finding URM interviewees, though, such as potentially a lower MCAT/GPA threshold for example.

However, I would find it hard to believe that med schools go through, filter out all white and Asian students (a vast majority of all applicants), then pick the URMs they want first.

Honestly, it is incredible to me that this thread is still going, for the sake of arguing whether URMs are in fact disadvantaged, and if they are, whether those disadvantages should confer a little extra leeway to them in an insanely competitive process. To me, a white guy, that answer is pretty obvious. At least SDN is more civil than the convo I had with a woman the other day about how her son didn't get into our state uni because like 10% of the class were first gen and they clearly favor first gen kids over a double legacy white applicant. 🙄

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

Trends in Racial/Ethnic Representation Among US Medical Students

This cross-sectional study examines trends in racial/ethnic representation among US medical school applicants and matriculants relative to the overall age-adjusted US population.

jamanetwork.com

" In this cross-sectional study of self-reported race/ethnicity of US medical school matriculants from 2002 to 2017, numbers and proportions of black, Hispanic, and American Indian or Alaska Native medical school matriculants increased, but at a rate slower than their age-matched counterparts in the US population, resulting in increased underrepresentation."

What’s the reason? Lack of qualified students from those underrepresented communities or medical education takes too long and costs too much?

 

[2024 or 5 ?]

So LCME is mandating diversity?

Yes

I'm pretty sure nobody gets screened out by race alone. I imagine there may be different filters for finding URM interviewees, though, such as potentially a lower MCAT/GPA threshold for example.

However, I would find it hard to believe that med schools go through, filter out all white and Asian students (a vast majority of all applicants), then pick the URMs they want first.

Honestly, it is incredible to me that this thread is still going, for the sake of arguing whether URMs are in fact disadvantaged, and if they are, whether those disadvantages should confer a little extra leeway to them in an insanely competitive process. To me, a white guy, that answer is pretty obvious. At least SDN is more civil than the convo I had with a woman the other day about how her son didn't get into our state uni because like 10% of the class were first gen and they clearly favor first gen kids over a double legacy white applicant. 🙄

Hmmm

 

[deleted1156722]

So LCME is mandating diversity?

The LCME: Liaison Committee on Medical Education, which accredits medical schools in the US has long required US schools to bolster student and faculty diversity and teach cultural competence- however since 2009 it has aggressively pushed forward on this measure to the extent of ignoring other purposes and goals of academic medical institutions.
When the DEI metrics from LCME singularly overwhelms the fundamental purpose of medical education and academic freedom for the institutions, which are under threat to lose accreditation if they don’t satisfy the assigned metrics, it is concerning. ( This has led to quite a few schools including OHSU, UNC and UMN come close to issues with accreditation - this is a fact and please check it out!)
When LCME treats DEI socio-political issues such as health disparities and social inequalities as “settled medical questions” and aggressively infiltrates medical education, it only serves to politicize medicine, instead of actually helping the individual medical schools and its community/ student body find unique, independent and relevant solutions for the communities they serve.

 

[Goro]

"When LCME treats DEI socio-political issues such as health disparities and social inequalities as “settled medical questions” and aggressively infiltrates medical education, it only serves to politicize medicine"

Except they THEY ARE settled medical questions. BTW, COCA thinks the same way for the DO schools.

 

[Nontrad_FL_LGBT]

Yes

Why should someone whose parents were not born in American have an advantage with lower MCAT and GPA's?

I'm sorry, what? Who said anything about immigration? You need to check yourself dude, this is pretty flat out racist to assume that URMs are all foreigners who don't belong.

 

[deleted1065184]

What's the effect size though? How more likely is URM serving in their community. And what's missing in these conversation is, are we considering other alternatives. Why is affirmative action always the only options being discussed, when we are explore other options that might be less controversial.

Don't know the exact effect size, but I'm sure you could find it in some studies. But even a small effect size is better than no effect size imo. Furthermore, there is also a difference in overall outcomes wrt screening, treatment, etc. (Research: Having a Black Doctor Led Black Men to Receive More-Effective Care). Regarding affirmative action, I'm not actually sold on it's efficacy when it comes to increasing numbers of URM students. Numerous studies have strongly suggested that white women actually benefit significantly more from AA than racial/ethnic minority groups (here's one about business, on the older side but still relevant imo: State Study Tracks Diversity / Affirmative action cited for rise in female, minority bosses). What are these other options that you speak of? I'm interested in hearing them. Despite improvements in recent years, certain racial/ethnic groups are still highly underrepresented in medical schools, so there is clear room for improvement across the board.

As an aside, the more insidious undertone of many AA conversations is so many people defaulting to the assumption that AA is the reason for the bulk of URM students being in medical school, and often the accompanying narrative that they're taking the seat of a more deserving student. It's less often assumed that the URM students who are admitted are just competitive applicants who also earned their spots.

Many people turn to the MCAT in attempts to prove their point, which I find to be poor logic. First, schools accept students within a range deemed acceptable to them, regardless of race. When I was prepping for the MCAT, one of the adcoms at my current school told me verbatim to consider not applying if I didn't score *at least* a 510. I am Black. People also cite MCAT averages for accepted students in different racial groups, as if HBCU medical schools don't exist. HBCU medical schools aren't as focused on the MCAT and usually average around 500, and there are hundreds of Black students at HBCU medical schools. You can do the math about how that impact the average. Schools also care A LOT about fit, and will often turn down high-scoring students from all backgrounds if they feel they are a poor fit. Based on common narratives on here, you would've expected I (as somebody in the 515-520 range) would've gotten into every school I applied to. I did not. My conclusion is that I was simply not a good fit for those schools, and I cut my losses. It wasn't that I had a red flag, because I got into several of their peer institutions.

Imporantly, the MCAT stops being predictive of success in medical coursework and board exams around the early 500s (MCAT scores and medical school success: Do they correlate?), and has never been associated with success as a clinician. In clinical practice, what is the difference between a 510 and a 520? Nothing. Those scores don't tell you anything about what the student will do as a physician. But more 520s will get you a higher USNWR ranking (hopefully that becomes slightly less of a thing now that schools are dropping from the list, but we'll see lol). With the MCAT only being one aspect that schools look for, it makes no sense to associate competitiveness solely with how high the MCAT score is.

 

[Goro]

"What’s the reason? Lack of qualified students from those underrepresented communities"

More likely lack of interest from those students, or even knowledge of the pathway. And definitely, more barriers.

I think only some 400 African American males apply to med school year, for example.

 

[deleted1065184]

"What’s the reason? Lack of qualified students from those underrepresented communities"

More likely lack of interest from those students, or even knowledge of the pathway. And definitely, more barriers.

I think only some 400 African American males apply to med school year, for example.

As an AA male, would say you're spot on. Does not seem like a realistic career path, takes a long time to start earning money (something that many of us don't have the luxury to wait for, bc we often feel the need to take care of our families), figuring out the pathway is really difficult without financial and social capital, and I don't need to get into other barriers.

It's unfortunately not a problem that medical schools can fix on their own bc the issues are lifelong, but they can certainly make the path clearer for the few who get to college and still have the desire to pursue medicine.

 

[deleted1156722]

"When LCME treats DEI socio-political issues such as health disparities and social inequalities as “settled medical questions” and aggressively infiltrates medical education, it only serves to politicize medicine"

Except they THEY ARE settled medical questions. BTW, COCA thinks the same way for the DO schools.

Health disparities result from multiple factors, beyond what can be addressed by medical schools such as :
• Poverty and economic inequalities
• Environmental threats
• Inadequate healthcare access
• Individual and behavioral factors
• Educational inequalities
LCME can call all the above factors as “ settled medical issues” and keep doing what it is doing- results will speak for itself- in another decade!

LCME would not be moving the needle on any of the above measures as these are not within the control of med schools. The fix needs to start at the level of elementary schools, local communities and neighborhoods, local political bodies and with our elected officials- definitely not with the med school adcoms!

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

"What’s the reason? Lack of qualified students from those underrepresented communities"

More likely lack of interest from those students, or even knowledge of the pathway. And definitely, more barriers.

I think only some 400 African American males apply to med school year, for example.

That make sense. I am all for awareness, financial and academic assistance but what I see is quotas and picking URMs from educated and rich families. (Parents are doctors/engineers/lawyers). I know you’ll deny there are no quotas

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

Health disparities result from multiple factors, beyond what can be addressed by medical schools such as :
• Poverty and economic inequalities
• Environmental threats
• Inadequate healthcare access
• Individual and behavioral factors
• Educational inequalities
LCME can call all the above factors as “ settled medical issues” and keep doing what it is doing- results will speak for itself- in another decade!

LCME would not be moving the needle on any of the above measures as these are not within the control of med schools. The fix needs to start at the level of elementary schools, local communities and neighborhoods, local political bodies and with our elected officials- definitely not with the med school adcoms!

That’s too much work for politicians 😀

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

As an AA male, would say you're spot on. Does not seem like a realistic career path, takes a long time to start earning money (something that many of us don't have the luxury to wait for, bc we often feel the need to take care of our families), figuring out the pathway is really difficult without financial and social capital, and I don't need to get into other barriers.

It's unfortunately not a problem that medical schools can fix on their own bc the issues are lifelong, but they can certainly make the path clearer for the few who get to college and still have the desire to pursue medicine.

As you and I noticed not all URMs in medical schools are from poor families,

 

[deleted1156722]

As you and I noticed not all URMs in medical schools are from poor families,

EdgeTrimmer and I’mInDer, Thank you for your honest and valuable perspectives as URM & ORM.
I personally know several HYPSM alumni children who are categorized as “URM” officially and actually compete and win against so many other socio-economically deserving and highly qualified URMs and ORMs who don’t have the resources or the knowledge of inner-workings. This debate should never be about URM vs ORM in the first place. That’s why schools need to remove the box-checking of race as a factor and instead use socio-economic index.

 

[deleted1065184]

As you and I noticed not all URMs in medical schools are from poor families,

Sure, but what point are you making here?

 

[deleted1065184]

EdgeTrimmer and I’mInDer, Thank you for your honest and valuable perspectives as URMs.
I personally know several HYPSM alumni children who are categorized as “URM” officially and actually compete and win against so many other socio-economically deserving and highly qualified URMs and ORMs who don’t have the resources or the knowledge of inner-workings. This debate should never be about URM vs ORM in the first place. That’s why schools need to remove the box-checking of race as a factor and instead use socio-economic index.

I thought EdgeTrimmer was a non-URM father of a medical student lol, I could be wrong.

And I can certainly understand why you think addressing SES alone can fix our problems, but that would suggest that race is not independently a highly prevalent factor in being disadvantaged and health disparities. Spoiler alert, it is. Did you know that wealthy Black women are still more likely to die during childbirth and have higher infant mortality rates than other women? Systemic racism is a potent oppressive force, even outside of classism.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

Sure, but what point are you making here?

Don’t consider race if applicants are from upper middle class and above.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

I thought EdgeTrimmer was a non-URM father of a medical student lol, I could be wrong.

You are 💯 correct. I am an ORM parent migrated to US to escape quota regimes. I don’t mind giving some consideration to race and income in admissions but not the DEI practices by schools.

 

[deleted1065184]

Don’t consider race if applicants are from upper middle class and above.

Read my other reply, race is relevant regardless of SES. Minoritized people don't suddenly stop experiencing racism when they start making more money. Focusing solely on SES is likely to lead to an increase in poor non-URM students at a disproportionately higher rate because wealth, again, is not the only factor that serves as a barrier to admission.

 

[deleted1065184]

Also I'm not sure why you keep insisting that there are quotas, when the practices that have been explained to you are, by definition, not quotas lol

 

[deleted1156722]

I thought EdgeTrimmer was a non-URM father of a medical student lol, I could be wrong.

And I can certainly understand why you think addressing SES alone can fix our problems, but that would suggest that race is not independently a highly prevalent factor in being disadvantaged and health disparities. Spoiler alert, it is. Did you know that wealthy Black women are still more likely to die during childbirth and have higher infant mortality rates than other women? Systemic racism is a potent oppressive force, even outside of classism.

My apologies on the mix-up and I have fixed it 🙂

Regarding the inter-twined race and SE status, not all underrepresented races can benefit if the race box is checked, and that is the problem of relying on race- it is self-reported and there is not a box for some of the races. Please see below for an extract of the Supreme court hearings:

“Justice Brett Kavanaugh, asked the UNC counsel, Ryan Park how applicants with Middle-East origins are supposed to identify themselves on the University of North Carolina’s applications since there isn’t a specific box for the Middle Eastern ethnicity. Park responded by saying the school’s applications allow applicants to specify their country of origin in the text even though there is no race box.

“But if they honestly check one of the boxes, which one are they supposed to check?” Kavanaugh asked.

Park responded: “I—I do not—do not know the answer to that question. What I can say is that if a person from a Middle Eastern country self-discloses their country of origin, it would be considered in the same way that we consider any box that matches, you know, one of the boxes that’s available in the common application, which is it would be an individualized holistic analysis.”

Infact, the US census bureau and DOE classifies Middle East as “ Caucasian” / “White” race. However if Ryan Park had given that answer to Kavanaugh’s question, it would only further undercut the argument made by affirmative action advocates—even though most Middle Easterners do not fit inside the Anglo-Saxon category typically used to describe white people. Obviously universities and med schools don’t want to admit this since if they do so, they would also have to admit that the vague racial categories used by colleges across the country force applicants into narrow boxes that don’t accurately reflect their backgrounds or experiences.
Let us then eliminate this “pseudo” box for race and actually evaluate the applicants from their stats and stories, while factoring in their SE status.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

Read my other reply, race is relevant regardless of SES. Minoritized people don't suddenly stop experiencing racism when they start making more money. Focusing solely on SES is likely to lead to an increase in poor non-URM students at a disproportionately higher rate because wealth, again, is not the only factor that serves as a barrier to admission.

I do agree racism still exists but varies based on economic status. As an immigrant I have felt the racism as well but not at same level as African Americans. My issue is instead of assessing root cause, we are trying band aid solutions which cause more resentment

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

Also I'm not sure why you keep insisting that there are quotas, when the practices that have been explained to you are, by definition, not quotas lol

It’s based on my observations. Anyway I believe in “If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, it probably is a duck”. I will end it here since I don’t want to be repetitive and no one changes their opinions in these forums 😀

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

Let us then eliminate this “pseudo” box for race and actually evaluate the applicants from their stats and stories, while factoring in their SE status.

That’s discrimination against poor story tellers 😀