The costs of a full ride

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Too many topics covered -- can't remember which I wanted to respond to. :laugh:

No matter what financial assistance is received, of course there are going to be costs associated. Similar to a wage being financial "assistance" -- how many people live pay cheque to pay cheque, or worse, live overdraft to overdraft? I know, generalizations, but you get the idea.

But I'm so late responding to this -- what was the topic again? :)

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So...almost 10 years later, has any of your opinions on PsyD's and Online training, changed? (I would think its safe to say, regarding the general perception, the perception (to a positive/ equal one), and level of acceptance, of at least the PsyD, has now changed, with the perception and acceptance of Online learning, has dramatically improved, but hasn't fully changed / become equal.

But again, i'm very curious to hear the updates on everyone's perceptions, opinions, and viewpoints, and whether they have changed, almost 10 years later lol :) Do tell.........do tell........
 
My position has grown slightly more nuanced in that either I am more aware now of the discrepancies between university and FSPS PsyDs or the discrepancy has grown larger. Otherwise, I stand by pretty much everything I said earlier. The field still holds very little respect for anything obtained online to the point its not considered a "real degree", a belief that I share. University PsyDs appear to function like balanced PhD programs, so I agree there seems little need. FSPSs seem to provide extraordinarily poor training and poor outcomes. The more time I spend in the field, the more insight I gain into where the field as a whole is moving and the more students from those programs I meet, the more solidified those views have become. It really is a slightly elongated master's degree they receive and not doctoral level. And there isn't anything wrong with being a master's level provider, its just a problem that we have degrees that are overpriced and labeled incorrectly.
 
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I attended a traditional PhD program. Years 1-5 of graduate school were 40-60 hour weeks that felt like an apprenticeship with the addition of coursework. I learned so much more outside of the classroom than in, though I think it's easy to lose sight of the richness of the "in house" experience. I had face-to-face assessment and intervention experiences each year, with multiple supervisors, at sites ranging from our training clinic to a safety net family practice clinic to a university counseling center. I assisted my PI in running a laboratory while running my own research studies and supervising my own RAs. I taught and mentored undergraduate students. I served on a university-wide committee as a graduate student representative. I can't imagine how an online program (even with a "year in residence") could come even close to duplicating this immersive, challenging education I was fortunate enough to receive. It shaped me not only as a scientist and practitioner, but also as a mature, independent professional. A graduate of a strong PsyD program could have a similarly rich experience, and many do.
 
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So...almost 10 years later, has any of your opinions on PsyD's and Online training, changed? (I would think its safe to say, regarding the general perception, the perception (to a positive/ equal one), and level of acceptance, of at least the PsyD, has now changed, with the perception and acceptance of Online learning, has dramatically improved, but hasn't fully changed / become equal.

But again, i'm very curious to hear the updates on everyone's perceptions, opinions, and viewpoints, and whether they have changed, almost 10 years later lol :) Do tell.........do tell........

My opinion of PsyD programs (the degree itself) has changed significantly, but not my opinion of online degrees. In fact, my online degree opinion is similar to MamaPhD (I could not imagine how you could garner the experiences of a traditional PhD/PsyD program with an online education). The intimate discussions among myself and my cohort shaped who I am, and without the back-and-forth with our ideas challenged in the moment, how could palate topics such as severe trauma, child abuse, severely enmeshed relationships (that border on being pathological but no laws are broken), sexual attraction to/from your patient, and other deeply ethical concerns that you're introduced to but have no idea how you would treat if you were faced with those circumstances?? I could not fathom an online ethics course where I was asked to really LEARN the material rather than regurgitate the correct answers to the questions. And don't get me started on the direct face-to-face research mentorship or supervisory (both group and individual) experiences. Our field and the service delivery of our field are too intimate to broach those topics in an effective way with only online learning & go-find-your-own-relevant clinical/externship/training experiences. I've worked in community mental health, university psych services, and major hospital centers, and to reconvene with my cohort on an on-going basis to discuss what we were all doing (in group supervision/clinical practica) was enormously rich. Without those experiences, I cannot see how an online degree and a university-based degree could even begin to be in same caliber (for our degree-no...now, business or other subjects are a completely different story).

As far as PsyDs, being trained, supervised, advised, and working alongside many PsyDs, I realized our degrees are way more similar than different (at least the NYC PsyD programs and some CA programs that I have the most experience with). For my friends who are paying $200K+ for their degrees, I just feel sad for them that they will be living with the debt for so long, but it was a solid decision they made so we tend not to rub their noses in the fact.
 
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An online degree program is not acceptable training for a psychologist in my opinion and it could be very difficult to get licensed in many states without an APA accredited degree. I don't think APA has accredited any, although there was one with some online component which may be? Some of the PsyD programs are routinely criticized on this board, but the degree itself is not since many schools offer the degree with solid training and outcomes. The biggest criticism of many of the PsyD programs is the cost.
 
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Up here in Canada we do have some Masters level School Psych programs that are mostly online (but at legit and good schools). While you can register as a Psychologist, honestly it's almost totally psycho-educational assessments. Do you guys think that it's possible to get component in this specific area that way?
 
Up here in Canada we do have some Masters level School Psych programs that are mostly online (but at legit and good schools). While you can register as a Psychologist, honestly it's almost totally psycho-educational assessments. Do you guys think that it's possible to get component in this specific area that way?
Not a chance.

Assessment has so much more involved than learning how to administer a test.
 
Not a chance.

Assessment has so much more involved than learning how to administer a test.
Just to be clear.

It's a 3 yr course based Masters. 3 practicums. 1 internship. (1200 hour pre-masters internship) Also summers where you have to go in (but that's just basically a 3-4 day thing)
 
I understand we all want the highest standards, (and i'm against online programs in general) but that doesn't mean that there can't be a specific programs, (non thesis, Masters programs let's say) at reputable schools, that do it right. (ie above) It's a School Psych (non thesis) program at the University of Calgary. Our former PM went to that Uni.

I just get the sense that sometimes opposition to specific programs has little to do with the question of competence, and more to do with "I had to put in more work by going to a traditional program (daily commutes, in-person meetings, etc) so I don't want others to have it easier b) not understanding that students still have dialogue in these programs (ie some form of skype type/conference type video conversation).
 
I just get the sense that sometimes opposition to specific programs has little to do with the question of competence, and more to do with "I had to put in more work by going to a traditional program (daily commutes, in-person meetings, etc) so I don't want others to have it easier b) not understanding that students still have dialogue in these programs (ie some form of skype type/conference type video conversation).

If the main point of graduate school was to interact with your course instructors and fellow students, you'd have a point. But for the majority of your time in a traditional program, you are outside the classroom and are engaging in other kinds of activities such as seeing clients, conducting research, teaching, participating in institutional/departmental functions, etc. I suppose if you mainly did web-based research studies you manage to do virtual lab meetings and such. But there is something to be said for developing your ability to present yourself professionally and interact face-to-face with your colleagues, research participants, and clients. I'd be really worried about someone who only had a year in residence. It's not like online programs are rich with face-to-face opportunities anyway.

To be clear, this is not about "you must suffer as I have" (actually the basic working conditions are usually fine), though I have no problem with asking students to put in 40+ hour weeks during their training. It's about acquiring the skills and deep knowledge to function as a full-fledged professional at the highest level of training in the field. My worry about people who are sold on the idea that they can do this in an online program is that they don't know what they don't know and it's not going to dawn on them until they're without an internship or a permanent job and wondering what happened.
 
Up here in Canada we do have some Masters level School Psych programs that are mostly online (but at legit and good schools). While you can register as a Psychologist, honestly it's almost totally psycho-educational assessments. Do you guys think that it's possible to get component in this specific area that way?

I have never heard of any such program. Can you provide a couple examples? I'll look at the websites and then try to answer.
 
I didn't really have any thoughts on this back when the thread was created, as it was before I joined SDN. However, I can say how they've changed in general over the past several years. First, after I left my graduate school bubble for internship and post doc, I have met a lot more PsyD and professional school students. I know someone who's a PsyD from a solid program that is university-based and this person is a stronger clinician and researcher than a lot of PhD students I know. That being said, I still believe that the strong PsyD programs resemble balanced PhD programs and I don't quite see the use of the degree anymore. I also believe that professional schools can have really strong graduates and I actually know some of them personally now. However, I also believe that, while professional schools can have very strong graduates, they also have standards that may allow less strong students to "squeak by." Therefore, I still cannot recommend professional schools at this point and think that APA needs to crack down on them. And I'm still 100% against online schools.
 
I have never heard of any such program. Can you provide a couple examples? I'll look at the websites and then try to answer.
http://werklund.ucalgary.ca/gpe/programs/master-education-school-amp-applied-child-psychology

I think they also have a Counselling one that is online, as well. I haven't really checked many other uni's for online, but I don't think there are that many in Canada. This is def not my first option, but I find the program is quite strong.
 
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I am not really sure I understand exactly why this has become so argumentative, or at least appears to be argumentative, from the bleacher seats.

Is it really surprising in any way that tuition remission and a stipend are often insufficient in covering an individual's total expenses for graduate school? One step further, is it any way shocking that it cannot cover a family's living expenses? I don't have the census data in front of me, but I would think that a substantial number of households rely upon 2 or more family members (i.e., depending on family structure: Single parent, dual parent, multi-generational, etc.) to be breadwinners in order to support the entire family unit (i.e., rent, food, utilities, transportation). I think we need to put this into perspective and consider what a stipend, tuition remission, and other waived expenses amount to per year and consider that akin to salary over the course of a 5-year period. If you are fortunate enough to be in the situation to receive a financial aid offer that includes these components, said individual must consider if additional loans are required and whether that investment is worth it for themselves and their family moving forward. It is an important decision, one they must be made by the individual. While I would love it if all students received subsidized housing, I think this is somewhat unrealistic expectation in our current economic climate. The decision to attend graduate school is a serious cost-benefit analysis for many students, one that does not always allow each person to pursue their education. I wish that this wasn't the case, but there are real world and practical constraints everyone must consider and traverse. That said, I believe that advocating for increased stipends, improved financial aid, and more accessible subsidized student housing is a worthy cause to make education more accessible to all. I feel like the article makes this effort.

In addition to advocating for increased financial support, I think we need to advocate for increased student education about the entire cost of attending a given college/university, the student loan process, the impact of debt, and realistic expectations about future job prospects following graduation. Dialogue about the rising costs of tuition, diploma mills, predatory lending, and the adverse outcomes of debt is increasing within the popular media. Hopefully, systemic reform will follow. Too often, this information trickles down to students and their families well after major decisions were made. Increasing the accessibility of information about the overall cost of education, from lost years in the workforce to helping people form a realistic sense of cost for living in particular area over a span of time (i.e., rent, food, utilities, tuition, health insurance, renters insurance, car insurance, medications), could go along way in terms of educating the public on the front end. Perhaps colleges/universities should be required to provide data about debt for their graduates (i.e., mean, median, mode, etc), in addition to key outcomes for students and information about their earning potential in a given field. Unfortunately, not all students receive adequate fiscal and career guidance from family members, loan officers, guidance counselors, mentors, friends, or others.

I feel like regardless of what model of education you support, online vs traditional education, advocating for increased student support and education about "higher education" are something that could be agreed upon.
 
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