The Entire Application Process Has Made Me Hate Being A White Male!!!

[mercaptovizadeh]

I like your argument. No person or individual is responsible, it is society's burden. Though your parents had nothing to do with any of the ills of US history, you and their tax dollars still support recompensation efforts given to Native Americans, Japenese Americans detained in WW2, and (most recently) Jewish survivors and their children of the Holocaust. Reparations for the black community is not a form of punishment for your parents and others who had no direct involvement. No one in their right mind is advocating government checks for whoever fits the definition of black. It would come in the form of revitalization and renovation of schools in trouble by Bush's NCLB that are in poor communities, white, black, hispanic, whathaveyou. Also, efforts to build affordable housing and adequate public services. The next time you're in DC take a ride down the Anocostia River towards Southwest and you'll see what I'm talking about. We're trying to fix the social decay here.

But why haven't I seen any of this? At any rate, it doesn't seem to be widespread. From the few times I've been to the Bronx, I have to say it just looks like this scary godforsaken place, all the homes and stores are decrepit, windows broken, you're terrified to ask for directions or look lost, etc. It seems to me that the government just finds it a lot easier to say: "OK, schools and employers, you be easier on minorities and that's how we will appease them..." In my opinion, blacks should stand up for their rights and say, ENOUGH!, we don't want special treatment in grad schools, we want fair treatment in our COMMUNITIES - we want doctors who will treat our sick, we want good schools, afterschool programs, daycare, training, transportation, commerce, etc. If nothing else, it would help if the government just paid enough doctors and good teachers to work in these communities. It strikes me that teachers have a BIG influence on pupils (they certainly did on me), and if altruism won't draw these teachers and doctors, then perhaps government money would. And no doubt, such measures would bring about more equality, more respect, and reduce welfare and crime as well.

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[The Remix]

mercaptovizadeh, feel free to help me on this. I'm currently working on a committee of the NAACP forming a proposal for increased federal investment in inner-city housing.

 

[LauraMac]

AA is not the same thing as legacy. Legacy assumes that at some point, a family member earned something through hard work. AA blankets all minorities with benefits regardless of whether or not they earn it. AA just serves to enable minorities much like welfare.

did you seriously just say that? i'm not for AA, but legacy is even worse, in fact way worse. as if your rich mommy and daddy haven't given you anything and everything you could ever need to succeed already. now all of a sudden you get in wherever you want because they worked hard?

 

[trauma_junky]

I like your argument. No person or individual is responsible, it is society's burden. Though your parents had nothing to do with any of the ills of US history, you and their tax dollars still support recompensation efforts given to Native Americans, Japenese Americans detained in WW2, and (most recently) Jewish survivors and their children of the Holocaust. Reparations for the black community is not a form of punishment for your parents and others who had no direct involvement. No one in their right mind is advocating government checks for whoever fits the definition of black. It would come in the form of revitalization and renovation of schools in trouble by Bush's NCLB that are in poor communities, white, black, hispanic, whathaveyou. Also, efforts to build affordable housing and adequate public services. The next time you're in DC take a ride down the Anocostia River towards Southwest and you'll see what I'm talking about. We're trying to fix the social decay here.

DC has been a giant slum long before Bush ever took the white house. The argument for blame is valid. By that account, countries that were aware of US slavery and opposed to it but allowed it to continue should share the burden as well. For if this is truely a failure of mankind, all members of the human race should be shunned for allowing it to happen. Yet, the oldest account of slavery is the Egyptians (African) inslaving the Hewbrews. So, should we but a moral and religious spin on this issue. In short, it is time to forgive, but never forget. We must not allow this to ever happen again, but to hold future generations responsible for the atrocities of our ancestors is absurd. Let the one that is free of sin cast the first stone if this is to be the case. I think can look at this from the whole perspective of, "off setting penalties." To come full circle and tie this argument back into admissions. The job of medical school is to train the most qualified people to serve a demand for medical care in society. The true aims of all these criterea of student composition is a nice overly optomistic pipe dream of the type of physician that they will produce. When in fact, after years of practice, the unsizable obsticals and entitled/sue happy population creates battle hardened physciains. The way ADCOMS look at prospective students, they might as well be trying to find appointees for sainthood, when in fact, this is not what happens in the process. So, only the most dedicated, unselfish, and smartest people should be allowed to be tourtured by medical school and residency. The idea of a welfare MD created by affimative actionesc URM programs only hurts Medicine as a whole and the people that is serves in the long run. The real funny thing about this issue is, in medicine, nothing is implemented full scale without some sort of outcome study that proves its efficacy and targeted intention. AA is performed on an assumtion.

 

[The Remix]

Trauma: Your "off-setting penanties" policy is pretty cute but it hasn't worked. Forgiveness was tried when Southerners promised blacks freedom if they fought for the Revolution. Instead the domestic slave trade ensued. Likewise when the 13th amendment was passed. Forgiveness was the theme and 90% of the black population was reduced to sharecropping and tenent farming under penantly of law. Likewise it was tried during WW1 and 2 but Jim Crow ensued. Compensation is not anything new here, man. Precedent has already been set at least three times. Also, what is the deal with this welfare doctor thing. The way you talk it seems as if when I take USMLE's I can check the "black" box and have my standard for passing lowered. If that's the case than your argument that AA is hurting medicine holds weight. Last time I checked, however, we all take the same test for accredidation. I'm not going to hurt medicine any more than you will once we graduate. MD means you made it and you're proven. We're not talking about a Psych 101 exam here.

 

[trauma_junky]

Trauma: Your "off-setting penanties" policy is pretty cute but it hasn't worked. Forgiveness was tried when Southerners promised blacks freedom if they fought for the Revolution. Instead the domestic slave trade ensued. Likewise when the 13th amendment was passed. Forgiveness was the theme and 90% of the black population was reduced to sharecropping and tenent farming under penantly of law. Likewise it was tried during WW1 and 2 but Jim Crow ensued. Compensation is not anything new here, man. Precedent has already been set at least three times. Also, what is the deal with this welfare doctor thing. The way you talk it seems as if when I take USMLE's I can check the "black" box and have my standard for passing lowered. If that's the case than your argument that AA is hurting medicine holds weight. Last time I checked, however, we all take the same test for accredidation. I'm not going to hurt medicine any more than you will once we graduate. MD means you made it and you're proven. We're not talking about a Psych 101 exam here.

Two issues here. one, I'm sure in the history of the world, our mitochondrial DNA was in someone commiting attrocities to man kind. So, don't do it agian and don't feel you are entitled to anything special. That is my argument. Call it the law of conservation of attrocities. There is a set amount of attrocity in the univerise and it is conserved. It is niether created or distroyed, just passed from one being to another in different form.

Second, medical schools don't want you to fail. They have invested sooooo much in their selected body, that they will go out of their way to help you succeed. Some schools (UTMB) have USMLE help classes specifically for their URM students. We make fun of carribean schools because they teach to the USMLE, but isn't this in essence what is happening at UTMB.

I am just tying to make an argment for getting away from this entitlment syndrom that is drowing every aspect of our society today. Get off you ass and work for it. That includes everyone out there bitching about URMs getting ahead of them. Yes it sux, and you have to work harder, but in essence the URM's have now made you a better person. My vote is get rid of the entiltlement and reward motivation, dedication, and hardwork with a color blind process.

 

[The Remix]

Meanwhile what do you plan to do with the 19.6 percentage point difference between the URM population and the URM physician pool?

 

[trauma_junky]

Meanwhile what do you plan to do with the 19.6 percentage point difference between the URM population and the URM physician pool?

19.6 % difference of what? I'm not understanding your question.

 

[The Remix]

19.6 % difference of what? I'm not understanding your question.

I'm referring to the percentage of the URM US population vs. the percentage of the URM physician pool. The percentages differ by 19.6 percentage points.

 

[trauma_junky]

I'm referring to the percentage of the URM US population vs. the percentage of the URM physician pool. The percentages differ by 19.6 percentage points.

The more impressive number is the total number of physicians vs. the total population in the US. Compare that ratio to other deveolped countries. b The issue of color here is a non issue, it is an issue of underserved medicine as a whole. And I realy don't care what color my childs neurosurgeon is, but he better be the smartest and the brightest. Their is a difference in physcians out there. One third of the residency seats go unfilled each year in the US. So any idot that finishes medical school is guarenteed a residency some where. I've been in medicine a long time. There are plenty of people in medical school that have no business being there. While there are many that should be there but can't get past something on their application. These are color blind statments for a reason. There is no good reason to allow someone of lesser academic quality to bypass a more qualified individual based on race. Not a single one.

 

[The Remix]

Likewise, get the other forms of entitlement removed, which are far more prevalent than affirmative action, and race conscious admissions will have no standing. But if other forms stay, which reward primarily white applicants becasue of the country's unfortunate-yet-still-haunting history, than AA must stay. Agreed?

 

[trauma_junky]

Likewise, get the other forms of entitlement removed, which are far more prevalent than affirmative action, and race conscious admissions will have no standing. But if other forms stay, which reward primarily white applicants becasue of the country's unfortunate-yet-still-haunting history, than AA must stay. Agreed?

My argument has been extending way past medical school admissions the entire time. Entitlement is creating a dependent society. This is not good.

 

[The Remix]

My argument has been extending way past medical school admissions the entire time. Entitlement is creating a dependent society. This is not good.

No, but it's good enough for tonight. I'm sleepy...

 

[trauma_junky]

No, but it's good enough for tonight. I'm sleepy...

Amen! good night.

 

[riceman04]

Are you that blind to social policy. How do you think your commander in chief, who by the way did not finish, got into Yale! Legacy has always played a significant role in higher education and beyond. People who are part of a legacy family are not given preferential treatment b/c of the success that family has had. Rather, they are ASSISTED because it almost ensures that they will easily traverse along the path already established by their family members. You know I always forget that receiving an education does not always facilitate social growth!

 

[Psycho Doctor]

You still can! With URM-Rebirth(TM), you too can become any one of the three underrepresented minorities--even mix and match!-- and assure your acceptance into the medical school of your choice. Just five minutes a day, 3 times a week can lead to the fantastic future you thought impossible for someone with your weak-ass numbers. Visit ww.scapegoat.com today for more information.

Best post this month.

actually best post of the year!! or ever in the history of sdn

 

[Psycho Doctor]

Let's be honest, in today's society AA should not be based upon race, it should be based upon socioeconomic status. I had a friend who grew up in the same neighborhood as I did, attended the same good public schools, went to a good undergrad, and was accepted to Duke, with stats that weren't stellar at all. He'll tell you the only reason he got in was because he was black. Was he discriminated against growing up? He doesn't think so. He grew up in a great upper middle class family and a great neighborhood, with great friends of all colors. To base AA soley on race is outdated, it needs to based on socioeconomic status, as those are the people that need help. AND it needs to be implemented at a much earlier time than graduate school. By that time the damage is done, more than 50% of those in the lower socieoeconomic class have quit school. Implement AA in elementary school and to those people that need it.

that's exactly what I stated above...well in different words...thanks for the reinforcement

 

[Psycho Doctor]

I don't quite understand what you mean by AA in elementary school. Not only is elementary ed. free--it's mandatory in all of the states.

FIX the problem where it should be fixed...don't just give out free rides later in life to compensate for the gov't's failure to intervene early when it could have made a difference. The present process hurts EVERONE. It sets up a system of discrimination that hurts both the URM and the white and asians who are losing plces in undergrad and professional schools.

 

[fireorose]

that's exactly what I stated above...well in different words...thanks for the reinforcement

I know plenty of people who are of all races on waitlists and who didnt get into their school of choice(including me an African American female). It's time for everyone to look inside themselves and fix their application and quit blaming those who actually worked their butts off to get in. There's a ton of reapplicants of all races, don't put the blame on certain ethnicities.

 

[Psycho Doctor]

There are a number of issues that annoy me here. There is a whole racial spectrum here, and it is only on the basis of black vs. white that people are getting special status.

My parents immigrated to the United States from a country in Eastern Europe, nearly 30 years ago. Not only did they have NOTHING to do with US slave/discrimination history, neither did their ethnicity; in fact, they came from a region that has historically been oppressed by outside empires.

Why should I be held accountable for something that happened two hundred years ago in the U.S.? And why should some kid who's parents immigrated from Nigeria 15 years ago get special status when neither he nor his parents nor his ancestors were ever oppressed in any way in this country?

Quite simply, AA should be based on socioeconomics, not race. The black community has been ghettoized and has further ghettoized itself (but I must admit, this mostly due to white discrimination), and a subculture has developed in which fathers are often absent, mother's have to run the show single handedly, doing three jobs (or on welfare), so there is really no-one to push the kids in their education. Furthermore, kids that actually do well in school or in the arts are labeled as "acting white" by their black peers. I understand that this is rooted in history and that there's no one to blame now, but the culture has to be changed.

Affirmative Action for blacks at higher levels of education, particularly grad school, does nothing but demean them in the eyes of their white colleagues, who suspect that they did not really attain their position by merit alone. The key is to work with the socioeconomically downtrodden (black, white, hispanic, etc.) at the early stage - kindergarten - and do the best to make the school a partial substitute for what the family should be doing, and hopefully this would stop the bad patterns that are occurring in some of the minority communities.

excellent post. i don't understand...we all get it, why doesn't the government after all these years??????

 

[Psycho Doctor]

I like your argument. No person or individual is responsible, it is society's burden. Though your parents had nothing to do with any of the ills of US history, you and their tax dollars still support recompensation efforts given to Native Americans, Japenese Americans detained in WW2, and (most recently) Jewish survivors and their children of the Holocaust. Reparations for the black community is not a form of punishment for your parents and others who had no direct involvement. No one in their right mind is advocating government checks for whoever fits the definition of black. It would come in the form of revitalization and renovation of schools in trouble by Bush's NCLB that are in poor communities, white, black, hispanic, whathaveyou. Also, efforts to build affordable housing and adequate public services. The next time you're in DC take a ride down the Anocostia River towards Southwest and you'll see what I'm talking about. We're trying to fix the social decay here.

then i guess you all agree that we are also held responsible for original sin committed by Adam and Eve? So we are all Christians now????

 

[Psycho Doctor]

did you seriously just say that? i'm not for AA, but legacy is even worse, in fact way worse. as if your rich mommy and daddy haven't given you anything and everything you could ever need to succeed already. now all of a sudden you get in wherever you want because they worked hard?

i'm for neither. Legacy also (sometimes) assumes your family gives to the school...when money speaks, i stop listening.

 

[Psycho Doctor]

I know plenty of people who are of all races on waitlists and who didnt get into their school of choice(including me an African American female). It's time for everyone to look inside themselves and fix their application and quit blaming those who actually worked their butts off to get in. There's a ton of reapplicants of all races, don't put the blame on certain ethnicities.

i never said there wasn't. There are always going to be more qualified applicants who will get in over another regardless of their ethnicity, gender , etc. And no one is going to admit WHY one got in over another especially if it is not playing fair. However all other things being equal, you tell me who gets the spot:

1. the black female with a 3.0 GPA, 27 MCAT or

2. the asian male with a 3.5 GPA and 32 MCAT.

I'm betting it's #1, 9 out of 10 times.

 

[visualwealth]

Both of these applicants are in the same range thus, the school is not losing out on quality by taking either... Also, both of these people will most likely end up getting into a medical school regardless of race thus, what is the big deal??

i never said there wasn't. There are always going to be more qualified applicants who will get in over another regardless of their ethnicity, gender , etc. And no one is going to admit WHY one got in over another especially if it is not playing fair. However all other things being equal, you tell me who gets the spot:

1. the black female with a 3.0 GPA, 27 MCAT or

2. the asian male with a 3.5 GPA and 32 MCAT.

I'm betting it's #1, 9 out of 10 times.

 

[~~premed82~~]

ITA w/ you! We may not all get into our first/secondary choices, however, we'll get in is the point.

Both of these applicants are in the same range thus, the school is not losing out on quality by taking either... Also, both of these people will most likely end up getting into a medical school regardless of race thus, what is the big deal??

 

[Psycho Doctor]

Both of these applicants are in the same range thus, the school is not losing out on quality by taking either... Also, both of these people will most likely end up getting into a medical school regardless of race thus, what is the big deal??

many with higher stats have gotten into NO med schools. You may say there isn't much of a difference, the point if they were both white males or asian males people would look at it as a huge difference. This process is so competitive, every little criteria means something, don't underestimate it.

 

[visualwealth]

And many with LOWER stats have gotten into many medical schools.. What is your point?? IF it is your fate to become a doctor nothing will stop you.... If you are white or asian and you think AA "took your spot" you are most likely not intelligent enough to be a doctor anyway b/c you have no reasoning skills That is, most people in medical school are white and asian thus what did they do that you did not do?? Those are the types of questions you should be asking yourself...

Good luck

many with higher stats have gotten into NO med schools. You may say there isn't much of a difference, the point if they were both white males or asian males people would look at it as a huge difference. This process is so competitive, every little criteria means something, don't underestimate it.

 

[Psycho Doctor]

And many with LOWER stats have gotten into many medical schools.. What is your point?? IF it is your fate to become a doctor nothing will stop you.... If you are white or asian and you think AA "took your spot" you are most likely not intelligent enough to be a doctor anyway b/c you have no reasoning skills That is, most people in medical school are white and asian thus what did they do that you did not do?? Those are the types of questions you should be asking yourself...

Good luck

i am not complaining about my med school aceptances; I actually fared better than I anticipated. However I am speaking for others who were hurt in a process that used AA for race rather than socioeconomic levels.

 

[Without Wax]

Let's be honest, in today's society AA should not be based upon race, it should be based upon socioeconomic status. I had a friend who grew up in the same neighborhood as I did, attended the same good public schools, went to a good undergrad, and was accepted to Duke, with stats that weren't stellar at all.

Totally agreed. The society has changed and aa based on race is no longer right for this current time.

 

[wends]

aa is not going to stop cause the schools use it to show that they are with it adn that they are "diverse"........life is just like this.......its all one big show and we have to play along......and thats why applying to multiple schools helps, "aa" couldnt have taken all the spots meant for you....

but society does need to do something about the living conditions of most african americans........poverty doesnt really help instill the desire for higher education, esp when your dad's in jail, mom's a crack addict and you walk dow the street worrying about whether you'll be shot or not.....if i lived in that condition, school is not my first priority. this kind of poor is different then immigrant off the boat poor, which is me. both my parents are university educated and we chose to come here to start over....education has been instilled in me since the day i was born.......

African americans have to demand better as well.........no use waiting for the white man to help.....help yourselves! demand a safe neighborhood, band together and get the drug pushers out......demand better from your kids......no one is going to come in and magically fix everything.

 

[VPDcurt]

as if your rich mommy and daddy haven't given you anything and everything you could ever need to succeed already.

That is simply a foolish assumption to be making under these circumstances. Legacy is earned; however, victimization is a position created by those who choose to create it.

 

[VPDcurt]

How do you think your commander in chief, who by the way did not finish, got into Yale!

He did finish at Yale and then went on to Harvard Business School.

 

[VPDcurt]

Both of these applicants are in the same range thus, the school is not losing out on quality by taking either... Also, both of these people will most likely end up getting into a medical school regardless of race thus, what is the big deal??

Same range? Are you kidding? The MCAT scores are not within the same standard deviation and I don't think the GPAs are either. They are definitely not within the same "range," whatever you think that is.

 

[chopper]

He did finish at Yale and then went on to Harvard Business School.

Yes, it was Cheney who did not finish at Yale.

 

[ComfortableWolf]

That is simply a foolish assumption to be making under these circumstances. Legacy is earned; however, victimization is a position created by those who choose to create it.

I have agreed with most of what you have said throughout this thread except the above. How on earth is Legacy earned? If your parents worked hard to get accepted to a school then they deserved to go there but how does this translate into having all of their offspring automatically accepted as well? Legacy acceptances are at least as twisted (if not more twisted) than aa accpetances where a more qualified candidate has been passed on.

The fact that Bush finished Yale with a C average and then went on to Harvard Business school further emphasizes the twisted nature of the legacy acceptance.
Legacy preserves the notion of an "Old Boy's Club"

 

[Psycho Doctor]

I have agreed with most of what you have said throughout this thread except the above. How on earth is Legacy earned? If your parents worked hard to get accepted to a school then they deserved to go there but how does this translate into having all of their offspring automatically accepted as well? Legacy acceptances are at least as twisted (if not more twisted) than aa accpetances where a more qualified candidate has been passed on.

The fact that Bush finished Yale with a C average and then went on to Harvard Business school further emphasizes the twisted nature of the legacy acceptance.
Legacy preserves the notion of an "Old Boy's Club"

agreed

 

[visualwealth]

a 27 and 32 are very similar depending on the distribution. What is the difference between 9 9 9 and 10 11 11?? Does the 32 bring anything that the 27 cannot bring? And, what is the big diff between 3.1 and 3.5 when they are both B students?? Now ,if we are talking about 3.8 for 3.1 then you may have a point...

Same range? Are you kidding? The MCAT scores are not within the same standard deviation and I don't think the GPAs are either. They are definitely not within the same "range," whatever you think that is.

 

[ComfortableWolf]

a 27 and 32 are very similar depending on the distribution. What is the difference between 9 9 9 and 10 11 11?? Does the 32 bring anything that the 27 cannot bring? And, what is the big diff between 3.1 and 3.5 when they are both B students?? Now ,if we are talking about 3.8 for 3.1 then you may have a point...

With all due respect there IS a significant difference between a 32 and a 27- there are many people who would deem it prudent to retake the MCAT with a 27 but would think it foolish to retake witha 32 (anecdotal ofcourse). We are talking about vastly different percentiles.

In addition, a 3.5 over 4 years is significantly better than a 3.1 over 4 years of undergrad.

In this case I would say that the 3.5 32 is a mouch more qualified applicant than the 3.1 27- not on a personal level but definately from an academic standpoint-

 

[DrewFromVA]

Are you seriously claiming that a 27 and a 32 are roughly equally competitive MCAT scores? If I had known that I wouldn't have studied at all for the MCAT. Heck, my Kaplan diagnostic was a 25 and assuming I would have got that on the real thing I would have been ok, since a 25 more or less equals a 30. The GPA difference in the example (3.1 vs 3.5) is also significant. If I had that extra .4 I'd be sitting on a 4.0, as would many of us in the pre-med game. It takes a lot of work to earn that "trivial" extra .4!

 

[tchantel21]

The seats should go to the best people; medicine should not be an arena for social experiments or reparations. It's too important to let less qualified applicants in just because of what they were born as. I don't think anyone cares how much you were oppressed, they just want the best care. And letting in someone just because they were discriminated against does not equal good care.

With that said, I know PLENTY of URMS who work their asses off to get good stats/publications/whathaveyou. This system also discriminates against them in that there will always be jackasses who say "They only got in because they were such-and-such race", and they need to work to "prove themselves." (well, if they care) But anyway, it's like assuming URMs are naturally lower, and they need a boost up. Numerous people come from third world countries with not a bloody red cent and work their way to the top. If someone really wants something, they will get it. This URM nonsense is both discriminatory to the non-URMs and the URMs, and also jepordizes patient care in extreme incidences. Again, medicine should solely focus on what is good for that patient, not trying to fix social injustices.

I am thinking we may need to sharpen our critical assessment skills here. Had you thoroughly read my reply you'll notice that I am trying to tell you that the very URMs you are talking about (hard working, good stats) are the ones who usually benefit from AA. Trust, many med school administrators (wrongfully, in my opinion) feel exactly the way you do and the U. of Mich supreme court case precedent gives them license not to endorse AA, and many don't -- it really depends on the school.
For those URMs that do have lower than ave. stats and matriculate consider this. Whether you want to accept it or not every1 did not have the same opportunities that you did. While it is up to the individual to succeed academically and determine his/her fate, many URMs are at a SIGNIFICANT disadvantage b/c of inadequate education and finances.
Do me this favor, take every URM out of an impoverished, hopeless lifestyle; out of a legacy drugs, jail and degradation. Give them the SAME education, the SAME economic situation, and the same reverence and expectations that society has for Caucasians. In other words, make our history your history see if the tables don't turn. It’s not a gene that precipitates situations like this, it is history. So how do we fix it? In the long term, overhaul urban education and economic infrastructure and implement some serious subliminal behavioral modification for the entire country. Until then, the best we can do is to take the situation for what it is and give the 27 MCAT and 3.1 gpa of a DISADVANTAGED URM (hence the checkbox on the AMCAS) the benefit of the doubt.
If your future self finds the USMLE to not be a formidable enough hurdle to qualify those that pass as "fit" doctors, then perhaps you SHOULD pioneer a movement that will effectively weed out these individuals who believe will make "sub-par" physicians. Until then, have no fear, you can always apply to schools with 0-1% minority enrollment (they are out there!). This way you can be sure none of us bothersome URMs are getting in your way; or perhaps you have a comrade on the adcom that actually believes that racism is an artifact and "disadvantaged" is a euphemism for stupid or lazy.

 

[SocialistMD]

I am thinking we may need to sharpen our critical assessment skills here. Had u thoroughly read my reply u'll notice that I am trying 2 tell u that the very URMs u r talking about (hard working, good stats) r the ones who usually benefit from AA. Trust, many med school administrators (wrongfully, in my opinion) feel exactly the way u do and the U. of Mich supreme court case precedent gives them license not to endorse AA, and many don't -- it really depends on the school.
For those URMs that do have lower than ave. stats and matriculate consider this. Whether u want to accept it or not every1 did not have the same opportunities that you did. While it is up to the individual to succeed academically and determine his/her fate, many URMs are at a SIGNIFICANT disadvantage b/c of inadequate education and finances.
Do me this favor, take every URM out of an impoverished, hopeless lifestyle; out of a legacy drugs, jail and degradation. Give them the SAME education, the SAME economic situation, and the same reverence and expectations that society has for Caucasians. In other words, make our history your history see if the tables don't turn. It’s not a gene that precipitates situations like this, it is history. So how do we fix it? In the long term, overhaul urban education and economic infrastructure and implement some serious subliminal behavioral modification for the entire country. Until then, the best we can do is to take the situation for what it is and give the 27 MCAT and 3.1 gpa of a DISADVANTAGED URM (hence the checkbox on the AMCAS) the benefit of the doubt.
If your future self finds the USMLE to not b a formidable enough hurdle to qualify those that pass as "fit" doctors, then perhaps you SHOULD pioneer a movement that will effectively weed out these individuals who believe will make "sub-par" physicians. Until then, have no fear, u can always to schools with 0-1% minority enrollment (they r out there!). This way u can b sure none of us bothersome URMs r getting in your way; or perhaps u have a comrade on the adcom that actually believes that racism is an artifact and "disadvantaged" is an euphemism for stupid or lazy.

Not to be overly critical, but are you really saving time by eliminating the "e" in the word "be," the "a" & "e" in the word "are," or the "y" and "o" in the word "you," or substituting "2" for the word "to?" It makes your post incredibly difficult to read.

l8r.

 

[tchantel21]

Not to be overly critical, but are you really saving time by eliminating the "e" in the word "be," the "a" & "e" in the word "are," or the "y" and "o" in the word "you," or substituting "2" for the word "to?" It makes your post incredibly difficult to read.

l8r.

hmmm, okay. I wouldn't have thought so, but point taken.

 

[Miss Alyssa]

ok, I'm from Canada and I dont think we have AA here (so I dont really know all the details concerning it) However, it seems people are that AA "helps" URM with slightly lower GPAs and MCATs, but dont med schools look at more than just that? Dont you have to list all your extra-curriculars (volunteering and the such)? Isn't there an autobiographical sketch, essays, and of course the face-to-face interviews?

I think a University would be able to tell the difference between a Black person growing up in a upper-middle class home given all the opportunities as his/her peers to do well, over someone who had to work part-time through college to help put food on the table for his/her younger siblings, and therefore couldn't volunteer in a lab or shadow a doctor. (And as a result would have lower marks, not because he/she wasn't smart enough, but had more pressing matters to attend to)

If AA isn't in place to do this, then what does it do?

 

[visualwealth]

33 is the magic number for an elite mcat score in MY book... sorry... lol... oh btw 3.7599999999 lol is an elite GPA anything below that is in the same range in my book

Are you seriously claiming that a 27 and a 32 are roughly equally competitive MCAT scores? If I had known that I wouldn't have studied at all for the MCAT. Heck, my Kaplan diagnostic was a 25 and assuming I would have got that on the real thing I would have been ok, since a 25 more or less equals a 30. The GPA difference in the example (3.1 vs 3.5) is also significant. If I had that extra .4 I'd be sitting on a 4.0, as would many of us in the pre-med game. It takes a lot of work to earn that "trivial" extra .4!

 

[ComfortableWolf]

33 is the magic number for an elite mcat score in MY book... sorry... lol... oh btw 3.7599999999 lol is an elite GPA anything below that is in the same range in my book

yeeesh

 

[ramblinwreckie]

what about a white male from a public school in the south? no love for us.

 

[aumed22]

A note about legacies: First off, yes President Bush did get into Yale. However, a few years later, when his brother Jeb had to take the SAT (something that was not around in George's day), he did not get into Yale, he went to University of Texas. Also, if AA has been around since the late sixties early seventies, wouldn't that mean that there is a whole generation of minorities whose parent's were able to attend good schools. And wouldn't these minorities be benefiting from the same legacy system that supposedly all white people are? I know of very few white people that are currently benefiting from the legacy system. And let's talk frankly here, if a university is dependent upon its alumni to support it financially, it would be stupid not to at least give those children of alumni some favored status. I actually heard from a medical school admissions director that if a legacy applies he or she will almost be guaranteed an interview but after that there is nothing guaranteed. So that's it, an interview for legacies. Again, I don't think anyone here is debating the merit of taking someone's disadvantaged socieoeconomic status into consideration, however, you cannot assume today that everyone that is black or hispanic automatically comes from a disadvantaged background. Today's AA is advocating this stereotype and I think that it is dangerous for our society to accept it.

 

[Psycho Doctor]

A note about legacies: First off, yes President Bush did get into Yale. However, a few years later, when his brother Jeb had to take the SAT (something that was not around in George's day), he did not get into Yale, he went to University of Texas. Also, if AA has been around since the late sixties early seventies, wouldn't that mean that there is a whole generation of minorities whose parent's were able to attend good schools. And wouldn't these minorities be benefiting from the same legacy system that supposedly all white people are? I know of very few white people that are currently benefiting from the legacy system. And let's talk frankly here, if a university is dependent upon its alumni to support it financially, it would be stupid not to at least give those children of alumni some favored status. I actually heard from a medical school admissions director that if a legacy applies he or she will almost be guaranteed an interview but after that there is nothing guaranteed. So that's it, an interview for legacies. Again, I don't think anyone here is debating the merit of taking someone's disadvantaged socieoeconomic status into consideration, however, you cannot assume today that everyone that is black or hispanic automatically comes from a disadvantaged background. Today's AA is advocating this stereotype and I think that it is dangerous for our society to accept it.

unfortunately those who are in control already have accepted it as it is today.

 

[lakersfan]

a 27 and 32 are very similar depending on the distribution. What is the difference between 9 9 9 and 10 11 11?? Does the 32 bring anything that the 27 cannot bring? And, what is the big diff between 3.1 and 3.5 when they are both B students?? Now ,if we are talking about 3.8 for 3.1 then you may have a point...

A 27 is not the same as a 32...that is a fact. The person who has a 32 is leauges ahead...

Anyways, back to AA. If AA is working on such a widescale level at the collegiate level, what is the need for it when people are applying to med school? If you already got help getting into once (when you applied to college), do you really need help again?

 

[Acherona]

i never said there wasn't. There are always going to be more qualified applicants who will get in over another regardless of their ethnicity, gender , etc. And no one is going to admit WHY one got in over another especially if it is not playing fair. However all other things being equal, you tell me who gets the spot:

1. the black female with a 3.0 GPA, 27 MCAT or

2. the asian male with a 3.5 GPA and 32 MCAT.

I'm betting it's #1, 9 out of 10 times.

I think the original philosophy behind AA was that, between two *equally* qualified applicants, the URM was supposed to be given the advantage. It would be great if this is how it actually worked, but it really does seem to be the case that URMs are rarely equally qualified. The differential is so great that I believe white/asian applicants should not even use average stats put out by schools as guidelines for assessing how likely they are to be accepted, because they are dragged way down by the URMs. It would be very interesting if med schools actually made available URM vs. non-URM accepted stats, of course they will never do this.

However, I support AA because I think it is *very* important for black and hispanic communities in the US to have the opportunity to be served by black and hispanic doctors. Numerous studies have been published showing that minorities receive sub-par healthcare and decreasing the number of minority doctors may exacerbate this, as well as increasing resentment against the medical establishment among these populations. If AA were done away with, the number of black doctors would plummet, and in their place we'd have a few more Asian American males, who are unlikely to ever want to serve the communities now most in need. This may contribute to an even greater cultural race-rift in this country.

And I agree that, from an admissions standpoint, a few MCAT points can make a huge difference, but the cognitive difference this translates to is much much smaller. med school admissions is very competitive and a weeding-factor is needed, so I'm not saying this is a bad thing, just that suspending it for URMs for a societal cause is justifiable.