The Lady Non-Trad

[pageantry]

So my bf's visa ran out last week and he moved back to Australia. On Valentine's Day, I decided to visit the bar we used to like, just to read and have a beer and not feel lonely, and some guys horned in on my space (naturally.) Explained I was kinda heartbroken, not looking for company; they asked why the heartbreak. I said my bf had left for Australia. "Why don't you follow him?" "I'm starting medical school in August." "So you want money more than love."

---

At a dinner party, I got to talking with the girl sitting opposite me and we started talking about the value of making big life transitions after college. She said she was applying to nursing programs as a returning student, thought it made a lot of sense since she loves helping people but wants a family and doctors have it so rough, she doesn't need the ego boost, etc. Finally she asked me, "how about you? Have you made a big life transition lately?" "Uhhh... Going to medical school."

^^That one has actually happened to me in a few different ways with other people (men and women) in their early thirties who have returned to school (or are returning) to become nurses. I'm sure it's just my social awkwardness, but I feel like as a woman there's this huge pressure to explain myself and downplay my choice. I know I can just let it sit there, but the feeling of comparison/competition that arises in the room becomes palpable in the silence.

--

Any other women have these kinds of experiences? Maybe these experiences are actually gender-irrelevant but, like, with the first one, I can't imagine guys saying that to another guy.

Curious, too, how you've handled the second one, if it's come up.

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[bunchesonothing]

So my bf's visa ran out last week and he moved back to Australia. On Valentine's Day, I decided to visit the bar we used to like, just to read and have a beer and not feel lonely, and some guys horned in on my space (naturally.) Explained I was kinda heartbroken, not looking for company; they asked why the heartbreak. I said my bf had left for Australia. "Why don't you follow him?" "I'm starting medical school in August." "So you want money more than love."

---

At a dinner party, I got to talking with the girl sitting opposite me and we started talking about the value of making big life transitions after college. She said she was applying to nursing programs as a returning student, thought it made a lot of sense since she loves helping people but wants a family and doctors have it so rough, she doesn't need the ego boost, etc. Finally she asked me, "how about you? Have you made a big life transition lately?" "Uhhh... Going to medical school."

^^That one has actually happened to me in a few different ways with other people (men and women) in their early thirties who have returned to school (or are returning) to become nurses. I'm sure it's just my social awkwardness, but I feel like as a woman there's this huge pressure to explain myself and downplay my choice. I know I can just let it sit there, but the feeling of comparison/competition that arises in the room becomes palpable in the silence.

--

Any other women have these kinds of experiences? Maybe these experiences are actually gender-irrelevant but, like, with the first one, I can't imagine guys saying that to another guy.

Curious, too, how you've handled the second one, if it's come up.

Not necessarily the same situations, but I've found that some people get intimidated easily. I've been told by several people that I'm intimidating. Looking at myself, I can't honestly see why*I'm a softie*, but, I digress.

As long as you weren't puffing yourself up, and it doesn't sound like you were, just don't feel the need to feel weird about or apologize for your aspirations and accomplishments.

And some people are far more comfortable feeling this way about a man, but a woman can be a different story.

 

[Eccesignum]

Apparently my sexual orientation is inappropriately in question in one of my workplaces. One of my co-workers decided that I must be a lesbian because otherwise I'd have a man instead of "being busy with school", and has told this to multiple people who agree.

Now I don't particularly give two figs, but this isn't the first time I've heard such sentiments (OMG YOU'RE IN YOUR THIRTIES WHY SCHOOL WHAT ABOUT MARRIAGE/BABIES/ETC). I think it's just par for the course when you break normal societal regs. Men may have slightly more leeway but I don't doubt they catch it too, especially as they crest out of their twenties and are likewise expected to be more settled.

People will think what they're going to think. All you can do is behave in a way that maintains your personal integrity and carry on.

 

[pageantry]

You guys are right, of course. There's nothing to do but carry on. But it's nice to know I'm not alone.

 

[DrMikeP]

You guys are right, of course. There's nothing to do but carry on. But it's nice to know I'm not alone.

Guys get it a LOT when they are older and going back. "You are going back to school during your peak earning years, what about family, children, retirement, travel, home, .........."

You'll give up more than a boyfriend before it's done, but if medicine is your passion then tell people proudly and politely to ^&(*)-off you're going to be a doctor and those are sacrifices that doctors make to help other people. Then nicely ask them if they've ever given up anything important in life to help others, that usually shuts people up.

Best of luck!

 

[DrMidlife]

I've been following a couple of twitter feeds that have been helpful for me to remember that people are ridiculous about women.
https://twitter.com/femscriptintros
https://twitter.com/manwhohasitall

 

[MD89]

Last summer, I went to visit a neighbor who has cancer. She asked what I was up to so I told her and ended up getting berated for a thorough half hour. I didn't really feel like I could argue back since she was sick and really my visit's purpose was just to help alleviate some of her boredom. But she pretty much assumed that since I want to be a doctor, I don't want to raise a family. As if. I would love to have kids already but it's not like I have full control over that! I'm not in a relationship and don't want to go the single parent route (single parents are awesome, I just can't do that myself from the get go). By my community's standards, at my age (27), I'm ancient. She was pretty much saying that I didn't have my priorities straight which really hurt. But you know what? I'm not going to spend the rest of my life in my current career just waiting for a husband. Either way I'll turn 30 and then 40 and I want to be doing something I love at those ages. I really don't think being a doctor precludes having a family as I have many role models who have done both. It's hard but it's not like it's not doable.

So my overall message is - chin up, ladies! Don't listen (too much, anyways) to the sort of people who tell you it's impossible.

 

[CyrilFiggis]

One of America's greatest past times is giving others unsolicited advice. It's going to happen with school, with your ovaries, with your kids, with the house you buy, etc.

 

[Citron]

First post here on SDN.
The way I think of it (i.e. the med school vs. get a bf and family argument): I'd rather go for things that I can do now and will make me happy, than waiting for something that may or may not happen (meeting a nice guy) + may or may not make me happy (the relationship/marriage part). I'd rather have control over my happiness than put it in the hands of others (i.e. a partner).
I find it entertaining that most people who berated my choice are often people who are not happy about their own choices. For example, women who are miserable in their own marriage often ask me why I haven't been married yet... I chalk it up to misery loves company. Not saying that having a family is a disaster waiting to happen, it's just that different people have different things that make them happy, different priorities. Just because I'm different doesn't mean I'm wrong.
Regarding the possibility of having my own family, I'm at peace accepting that due to my choice, I most likely won't get married or have kids. So if it does happen, it's great, if not, I'm not disappointed. I'm blessed that I have a large extended family that always supports me when I need them, so that's really helpful.

 

[gyrfalcon]

The only person that made a "wrong priorities at this stage of your life" type comment to me was a med school interviewer. It's also the only school I was rejected at post interview. Still not sure whether the comment was meant to be a stress test or just judgmental.

On the flip side, I had a good experience during hospital volunteering. I was initially expecting that to be awkward. Quite a few of the nursing/CNA/administrative staff were going back to school for (further) nursing qualifications, and I was worried that telling them about my med school dreams would cause some resentment. They were actually very supportive, and cheered me on through the highs and lows of interview season.

 

[Spydra]

While not aiming for med school, I have gotten plenty of not so nice comments regarding my choice to pursue a PhD. These comments are almost always from women and are essentially them telling me I don't get my purpose as a woman or I'm wasting time pursuing a career rather than pursuing a family. What these women don't get is my definition of family has always been me + husband. Sure I haven't met the husband yet, but I'm still holding out hope. I don't feel like less of a woman for not wanting my family to include children or that pursuing my career is a waste of time. The more I think about these women the more I realize they either didn't have choices or were afraid to seek out choices in terms of what they wanted their life to look like. Pretty sad if you ask me.

 

[pageantry]

I've been following a couple of twitter feeds that have been helpful for me to remember that people are ridiculous about women.
https://twitter.com/femscriptintros
https://twitter.com/manwhohasitall

Oh my god, these are so good. Who would have thought enlightenment would hit at 7:58 on a Saturday morning.

 

[futuremdforme]

People will judge you either way... and if you are worried about it, there is absolutely nothing about med school that holds you back from either marriage or kids. If you were serious enough about the bf, I would have expected marriage to come up and he could have stayed here with you, no?

 

[pageantry]

Word, y'all, I'm heartbroken but I do think it was the right thing to do. I appreciate the "buck ups!" But I'm okay! It's the *judgments* that took me off guard.

But as I was saying to @DrMidlife elsewhere, on the bright side, this marks the first time I've done anything interesting enough to make men judge me as unfavorably prioritizing things-other than-them. Which I am!

It's valuable to me to hear other non-trads' experiences with being judged for our choices though, (particularly as a woman, but I don't mean to exclude anyone.) Sure, screw 'em. But some weeks it's easier to say that than others. And it's nice to feel not-alone and also great to hear you all finding your best ways of handling it and moving on.

 

[TallPreMed]

I got engaged in late October. I've been actively pursuing the med school route for about a year. The amount of people who have asked me if I'm going to stop trying for med school and "settle down and have babies" is ASTOUNDING. I've had to have a long talk with my grandma about not getting too greedy since she already has two great grandchildren and having 11 grand children ranged from age 33-4.

I'm 25 and have 0 maternal instincts or wants. The struggle is SO REAL.

 

[Eccesignum]

Word, y'all, I'm heartbroken but I do think it was the right thing to do. I appreciate the "buck ups!" But I'm okay! It's the *judgments* that took me off guard.

But as I was saying to @DrMidlife elsewhere, on the bright side, this marks the first time I've done anything interesting enough to make men judge me as unfavorably prioritizing things-other than-them. Which I am!

It's valuable to me to hear other non-trads' experiences with being judged for our choices though, (particularly as a woman, but I don't mean to exclude anyone.) Sure, screw 'em. But some weeks it's easier to say that than others. And it's nice to feel not-alone and also great to hear you all finding your best ways of handling it and moving on.

When I told one of my friends about the rumor mill, she told me I should take it as a compliment that I was that damn interesting that people took time out of their day to try and figure me out. I thought that was kind of funny.

Then later I got really down about it.

Then later I was like "Welp, I have other things to do right now" and got back to the grind.

I'm definitely not saying it's easy to brush it off. Sometimes it gets to me; there have been times something really stuck in my mind like gum on my shoe, and it's especially hard when there's nobody to talk to to help adjust my perspective. But you're right, knowing you're not alone does help.

 

[Mad Jack]

Word, y'all, I'm heartbroken but I do think it was the right thing to do. I appreciate the "buck ups!" But I'm okay! It's the *judgments* that took me off guard.

But as I was saying to @DrMidlife elsewhere, on the bright side, this marks the first time I've done anything interesting enough to make men judge me as unfavorably prioritizing things-other than-them. Which I am!

It's valuable to me to hear other non-trads' experiences with being judged for our choices though, (particularly as a woman, but I don't mean to exclude anyone.) Sure, screw 'em. But some weeks it's easier to say that than others. And it's nice to feel not-alone and also great to hear you all finding your best ways of handling it and moving on.

Guys are just threatened by the idea of a girl that would prioritize anything over getting married and making babies. That they chalked it up to "money" really just goes to show how little they think of women (or how shallow they are as people), as they can't fathom you doing something for self-actualizing reasons and just chalked it up to "money." There's also the intimidation factor of a woman that's outdoing anything they've done with life, so they try to cut you down by making your intentions seem ignoble, and thus justifying their lack of achievement in relation to you (both men and women will pull this one). Just keep doing you, and do what will make you happy. You don't have to live with them for the rest of your life, but you do have to live with the decisions you make until you end up in a box six feet underground, so make those decisions count.

 

[DrMidlife]

Women being threatened by me feels really similar to men being threatened by me. Completely about their own self, and how what I'm doing doesn't support their self image.

People are just like that. Like, if I meet a teenager I'm going to ask them if they're going to college. Or if they're not going to college I'm going to ask them about school or their job. Their girlfriend/boyfriend. I'm applying my lens to their life, asking questions that don't invite them to hand me the lens they use on their life.

I have yet to find a way to answer "no, I don't have children" that lands neutrally in a conversation with another woman. Even if the other woman is also childless. It's a minefield. I keep trying but there's no Switzerland in there.

 

[pageantry]

People are just like that. Like, if I meet a teenager I'm going to ask them if they're going to college. Or if they're not going to college I'm going to ask them about school or their job. Their girlfriend/boyfriend. I'm applying my lens to their life, asking questions that don't invite them to hand me the lens they use on their life.

That is such an astute observation. I think about that a lot, (not in quite that way tho; this is good stuff), as someone going into medicine.

I suppose when I'm sad about being judged I'm basically saying, "why can't you receive me as I am?" (This is, I think, your point.) But it's a great reminder of how I do the same thing, and can barricade myself against receiving people who, in whatever socioeconomic/value-driven ways, may be really different from myself. It hurts to be treated that way! I guess it's good that it hurts! Maybe it'll remind me to try harder to not freaking DO it...

 

[doyouhaveaflag]

Random people ask me about my reproductive plans when I tell them I plan on being a surgeon. It could be my first conversation with someone and it comes up. One person even questioned if it would be "fair" to my presumptive offspring if I were to have a kid in my late 30's (which is when I will graduate med school).

 

[DrMidlife]

It's like people haven't adjusted to the average life span not being 35 anymore. Or they're so tired from having their own teenagers they can't comprehend starting at the age they're at now.

I tell people my mom retired at 78 and they go blank like I kicked the plug out of the wall. God forbid I bring up Catherine Hamlin or similar.

 

[Sardinia]

I think you are all wonderful people regardless of what society thinks.

 

[wagonwheel23]

Thank you all for sharing your thoughts and experiences. I cannot fully relate since I am a man, but I will say that you all impress and inspire me so much. Congratulations! You are making your dreams come true, and that is something to be damn proud of.

Also @gyrfalcon , my only post-interview rejection came after a faculty member told me I was dooming my relationship by going to medical school and I should really think twice about where my priorities lie. People really suck sometimes.

 

[DokterMom]

"Why don't you follow him?" "I'm starting medical school in August." "So you want money more than love."

Pick One...

I'm sure it's just my social awkwardness, but I feel like as a woman there's this huge pressure to explain myself and downplay my choice. I know I can just let it sit there, but the feeling of comparison/competition that arises in the room becomes palpable in the silence.

Any other women have these kinds of experiences? Maybe these experiences are actually gender-irrelevant but, like, with the first one, I can't imagine guys saying that to another guy.

Hardly gender irrelevant! As @DrMidlife 's links illustrate. So many people (even other women) seem to view women as two-dimensional. Love or money? Family or career? Looks or intelligence? Nice or assertive (ditchy)? The very idea that women can be complex, multi-faceted characters with elements of 'all of the above' just doesn't even register...

But as I was saying to @DrMidlife elsewhere, on the bright side, this marks the first time I've done anything interesting enough to make men judge me as unfavorably prioritizing things-other than-them. Which I am!

When I told one of my friends about the rumor mill, she told me I should take it as a compliment that I was that damn interesting that people took time out of their day to try and figure me out. I thought that was kind of funny.

Very wise words! And an excellent insight. As a midlife woman myself, I now strive for interesting and self-actualizing and finally don't really care about the unfavorable judgements. If they're 'blanket unfavorable', then that really says something about the judge-r, that they're only capable of a binary judgement. If it's a more nuanced view, then fine -- I'm a more complex person. A blanket positive is equally inaccurate.

I used to pick myself apart and rag on the not-so-good parts. But one day, I had the serendipity to realize that I wasn't a series of interchangeable parts, but rather a whole package, and that it was the package, not the parts, I needed to evaluate. Life's been much better since then!

 

[Spydra]

I have yet to find a way to answer "no, I don't have children" that lands neutrally in a conversation with another woman. Even if the other woman is also childless. It's a minefield. I keep trying but there's no Switzerland in there.

I too struggle with stating this information to other women, childless or not. My frustration is largely that I know I'm going to be expected to explain myself when I shouldn't have to and I expect more from the sisterhood. When a man reacts negatively to my stating I have no children and will never have any I fully expect that. Perhaps I shouldn't, but I do because I've routinely experienced men (note I'm not saying all men) reacting negatively to a number of things I and other women have chosen to do or not do with our lives. Because of that I expect other women to share my outrage at having to constantly justify our choices and not want to treat each other that way, but maybe that's foolish on my part. While likely not a perfect response to the inevitable question regarding my having children I've simply been saying "No." When pushed to explain or justify myself I've simply been saying "I don't feel the need." I'm surprised that this response seems to leave people not just bewildered, but visibly uncomfortable resulting in either trying to push the issue or awkwardly changing the subject.

 

[Eccesignum]

Random people ask me about my reproductive plans when I tell them I plan on being a surgeon. It could be my first conversation with someone and it comes up. One person even questioned if it would be "fair" to my presumptive offspring if I were to have a kid in my late 30's (which is when I will graduate med school).

Ahaha! Once when I told a family member (after enduring intense prodding) that I have no plans for children I got the answer: "But what about when your husband wants them? You're going to tell him no? That's terrible!"

Apparently I should be basing my desires in life around what an imaginary future man wants. Cool story.

 

[DokterMom]

How did the Dowager Countess put it? "You're not married so you have no opinions. Once you are married, you husband will tell you what they are."

 

[cougariffic]

I was about to create a thread regarding this and read your post... I am a non trad, married, and starting medical school in the Fall. This has been a long journey and I am excited to start. My husband is so supportive, yet I am constantly bombarded by my friends (jealous types) and family about my decision to pursue school at this age and about kids. I'm so sick of this. Most of the time I shrug them off but sometimes it really gets to me. I want to have children, but I want to see how I handle medical school first. I dont know how I can time having a baby while in school as well. My head spins just thinking about all the questions people ask me......Being constantly bombarded by FB pics of babies and what not, are not helping either. Anyone else frustrated in the same situation?

 

[DokterMom]

"Yeah - Actually, I considered that."

 

[doyouhaveaflag]

I want to have children, but I want to see how I handle medical school first. I dont know how I can time having a baby while in school as well. My head spins just thinking about all the questions people ask me......Being constantly bombarded by FB and instagram pics of babies and what not, are not helping either. Anyone else frustrated in the same situation?

Cougariffic, your story sounds similar to mine. I came to med school, married, at 31. I also would like to have kids. I did actually ask some of the female MDs I know about when they thought the best time was during med school. All of them said there's no time that will ever feel like the right time, but most said that the most flexibility would be in first year.

I actually seriously contemplated trying during first year, but since we had just moved across the country and I was back in school for the first time in a very long time, we decided against it. I'm now thinking of trying fourth year, but then there are the challenges of interviewing while pregnant. Not sure if a surgery program director will look favorably on knowing I would be starting with an infant at home. So many things to consider! PM if you want more commiseration!

 

[DrMidlife]

Let's see, I think I currently have 4 classmates (class size 150, I think 40% female) who had one or more babies during med school. All but one started in the class ahead of me. In general they all have a mom or sister (and one has a grandpa) who lives nearby. That and/or money are the difference between adding a year+ to your program or not.

Here's the thing: what's THE MOST LIKELY THING that a woman in her mid twenties is going to do, other than have an enormous wedding? Procreate. End of story. Any human endeavor involving reproductive age women OR MEN that can't accommodate women having babies is ridiculous. And by "accommodate" I mean proactive management of an alternative schedule, proactive management of the impact of a resident's absence on the other residents, and a wholesale removal of the unbelievable sphincter clenching that old conservatives love to do about the WAY THINGS SHOULD BE AND HAVE ALWAYS BEEN.

And but I was on call with a former Navy pilot senior resident last week. (Are you thinking it's a guy? Think again.) I understand a little better now that there are some deployment & combat related situations where everybody really needs to not be too pregnant.

But my point is that at 31, you're riding on the wave started over the last decades that makes things work out with having babies during med school and/or residency. Don't let med school or residency stop you. Just be extra super mega realistic, ie no you can't also do the summer at Mayo or break 260 maybe.

A thing I did (to review: I'm childless) at the end of M1 year, after the like ninth conversation with a female classmate worried about when to have children: I found the upperclasswomen who'd had babies and introduced my classmates. They went to lunch & established casual mentorship. Apparently it's still going...and there have been a bunch of big bellies.

 

[pageantry]

Ahaha! Once when I told a family member (after enduring intense prodding) that I have no plans for children I got the answer: "But what about when your husband wants them? You're going to tell him no? That's terrible!"

Apparently I should be basing my desires in life around what an imaginary future man wants. Cool story.

This was not an insignificant factor in me not pursuing medicine the first time around. When I was fifteen and first talking about it, family members said, "You'll use up your best child-bearing years in residency!" and I was a kid so I was like, Welp, I guess child bearing is going to be the most important thing in my life...

Later, still without kids, when I wanted to leave a wealthy guy and pursue my own life in NYC, it was, "Oh my god you'll get yourself killed! How can you leave so much security? You must be suicidal."

Even now, it's "Don't go to the fancier, more competitive school where you were accepted. I read that not being the best in medical school can be really hard on people, and you wouldn't want to burn out."

These days I recognize these kinds of statements as actual curses. But I can believe them or not. I can choose to pay attention to them or not. And I can form my own priorities, even if nobody else validates them. But I'll be honest, it took every one of the last 33 years to get here. And sometimes I look at my twin brother, who just zoomed straight through school into a world-famous career in math, who was never told who or what he could or could not be (or, at least not in the ways that I was), and I can't help but wonder what my life would have been like if I'd been born a guy.

Probably less interesting, is what.

 

[bunchesonothing]

I love this thread! <3

 

[QofQuimica]

I don't go to bars or dinner parties, and I don't make small talk with random strangers. Problem solved.

All kidding aside, you have to recognize that you are a threat to other people, both men and women. Not because you mean to threaten them; you're just doing your thing. But most people gain reassurance by following the herd, not by striking out on their own. Your courage makes them feel insecure. Other women look at you and feel like they don't measure up. Guys worry that you don't need them. Well, that, and drunk guys in bars are just annoying.

 

[TexasPostBaccPreMed]

This thread makes me happy. I'm only 25, but by the time I start med school I'll be 27 or 28. I'm single, but I do really want kids one day. Most of my girlfriends and family can't believe that I'm doing what I'm doing (quit my job, post-bacc, the whole nine yards), and especially my extended family just really doesn't value education all that much, meaning I get lots of perplexed looks around holiday time. I'm SO tired of being asked about my relationship status, or when I'm gonna "settle down" and have kids. For the most part I don't care what anyone thinks, I'm super happy with the path I'm headed down, but...the comments do get to me sometimes. It's good to know that other people feel the same way. I've already accepted that assuming I have kids, it will be at a much later age than most of my peers (I live in Texas, they procreate early here). Is it really THAT difficult to have a child during say, 4th year? Or residency? I realize it probably depends on the residency.

 

[cherubb3]

I am so glad to see this thread is here! I am a 28 y/o woman starting med school this year. I don't have anything meaningful to vent about here (yet) -- but I just wanted to say keep on keepin' on ladies. Don't let anybody tell you that you can't have it all (if that's what you want). One of my aunts is a prime example of this. She is a practicing physician in a very time-demanding specialty. Despite this, she had 8 children (starting in residency) and they have all grown up to become productive members of society and nearly all of them have pursued advanced degrees. Sure, she had hired help, but she was arguably able to "have it all." It is possible!

 

[Eccesignum]

I am so glad to see this thread is here! I am a 28 y/o woman starting med school this year. I don't have anything meaningful to vent about here (yet) -- but I just wanted to say keep on keepin' on ladies. Don't let anybody tell you that you can't have it all (if that's what you want). One of my aunts is a prime example of this. She is a practicing physician in a very time-demanding specialty. Despite this, she had 8 children (starting in residency) and they have all grown up to become productive members of society and nearly all of them have pursued advanced degrees. Sure, she had hired help, but she was arguably able to "have it all." It is possible!

Which is great, for many. It can be done, and that's fantastic.

But for those of us that don't want "it all", it makes it even tougher for people to understand that not every adult female will suddenly wake up one day and want a family. When people find out I don't have children I often get lectured about how it's possible and everyone does it and oh don't worry you have plenty of time. When I say it's not because of demands on my time, it's because it's just not what I want, I get the confused stare. Then more lectures about how I'll change my mind by forty because every woman does, you know.

Occasionally, there are truly hostile comments about how selfish I am. I've even heard that from my own family, which hurts.

So yes, I'm very happy that avenues exist now to allow women who "want it all" to be able to achieve it. I just wish those of us that didn't weren't regarded as having pieces missing.

 

[thatwouldbeanarchy]

Try telling people that you A) are going to medical school, B) don't want kids, C) have a long-term partner but likely won't ever marry and watch the judgments come a-flyin'!

 

[Amelie.]

If you do have kids, the judgement just shifts. I'm 26 and starting medical school this fall with little kids and I have finally learned to stop telling other parents about my career choices. It inevitably turns into discussion about how money and a career can never replace time spent at home with children. Lots of assumptions made by people who know zero about me or my family situation. Not everyone is meant to be a stay at home mom? :-/


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile app

 

[cherubb3]

Which is great, for many. It can be done, and that's fantastic.

But for those of us that don't want "it all", it makes it even tougher for people to understand that not every adult female will suddenly wake up one day and want a family. When people find out I don't have children I often get lectured about how it's possible and everyone does it and oh don't worry you have plenty of time. When I say it's not because of demands on my time, it's because it's just not what I want, I get the confused stare. Then more lectures about how I'll change my mind by forty because every woman does, you know.

Occasionally, there are truly hostile comments about how selfish I am. I've even heard that from my own family, which hurts.

So yes, I'm very happy that avenues exist now to allow women who "want it all" to be able to achieve it. I just wish those of us that didn't weren't regarded as having pieces missing.

I'm sorry to hear that you have been harassed by your family. I know that struggle as well, since I'm not sure if I ever want children, either. I don't mean to imply that every woman wants it all or should want it all, hence why I specified that "if that's what you want."

 

[DrMidlife]

goddammit you're not missing pieces. the last 2 appointed supreme court justices are female and childless. and these fascists would probably look on Sonia & Elena with pity & disregard too. lol!

ok but i have not one but TWO female doctor friends who got their md/phd and md/jd and did residency & fellowship & got professorships & bought houses & STILL HAD WORKING OVARIES and they're having babies. the really amazing part, to me, is theone that had the cojones to walk away from her unsatisfying long term relationship before it was too late to be what she really wanted to be with that deadbeat guy - a mom. and these two are doing it at a time when they have boatloads of money and reasonable influence at work. but they still struggle. you betcha. but omg, right?

 

[doyouhaveaflag]

Occasionally, there are truly hostile comments about how selfish I am. I've even heard that from my own family, which hurts.

I think there's an argument here that not having kids is the less selfish thing to do, given that the number of people on the planet seems to have reached critical mass**. Hope I don't start a flame war with that one...

@thatwouldbeanarchy, I knew a couple that had a party in which they exchanged vows to never marry each other. It was great! The ideal ceremony for the person who wants to throw a big expensive party but not be married afterwards.

**Edit: I don't actually think this is true, but I've heard people make the "selfish" argument for both having and not having kids. Can't win!

 

[Eccesignum]

I think there's an argument here that not having kids is the less selfish thing to do, given that the number of people on the planet has reached critical mass. Hope I don't start a flame war with that one...

Nah, I didn't say that to imply that one choice is or isn't selfish versus the other. It's not a zero sum game. Just mentioned it because it's a frequent thing I hear (and other childless men and women I know have heard the same).

 

[pageantry]

I knew a couple that had a party in which they exchanged vows to never marry each other. It was great! The ideal ceremony for the person who wants to throw a big expensive party but not be married afterwards.

I love this!

Can I tell you guys that I have a totally trashy secret Amazon "wedding registry" which I am too scared to show anyone, which is really just me fantasizing that I'll ask people to finally pony up for a bunch of good Farberware on my way to medical school? I mean, since they're probably never going to have to do it for my (hahahahahaha!) wedding.

I have bought enough blocks of Global knives, dammit!

 

[doyouhaveaflag]

Nah, I didn't say that to imply that one choice is or isn't selfish versus the other. It's not a zero sum game. Just mentioned it because it's a frequent thing I hear (and other childless men and women I know have heard the same).

Sorry, I meant that it could be an argument you could use when you get those kinds of comments from people about you being selfish. I think it might be hilarious to see what their responses would be if you used that as a retort. Didn't mean to make it seem like an argument with what you posted!

I don't actually think one choice is more selfish than the other either. It's such a personal choice that it's crazy that so many people feel qualified to opine on others' decisions.

 

[Darth Doc]

The biggest criticizer of my medical school aspirations was the judge who decided whether or not I was going to get full-custody of my kids when I was accepted to medical school. It was so bad even my lawyer was shocked and appalled. The judge basically said I was selfish for taking the kids away from a loving father to do something I didn't have to do since I already had a job. Right after that she went into detail on the 8 (yes, eight!!) reasons he wasn't the parent to raise the kids. I gave it a big "whatever" because I got full custody.

I've also heard a lot of "you're crazy" because of the number of kids I have. But I always laugh and shrug it off, because I think they're just jealous and impressed. (And I am a little crazy, so it's not like they're wrong )

Honestly, I'm happy, I have a supportive husband, my kids are thriving, my life is awesome. I have enough life under my belt that although M2 is stressful, I can objectively say I'm in exactly the right place.

A lot of the women who put other women down are the ones who don't have the brains, opportunity, or guts to do what we're doing. They have justified their choices for years without owning their real reasons, and when we prove their justifications wrong (ex. your kids will be worse off if you don't stay home with them, you're too old, etc...), they feel threatened.

No woman should be threatened by another's choices. We all have the freedom to decide what's best for our lives. I have family members who have made the choice to be that stay-at-home mom, but we still support each other. Their choices aren't right for me and vice versa, but we all do our best with what we think is right for us and ours.

^^That one has actually happened to me in a few different ways with other people (men and women) in their early thirties who have returned to school (or are returning) to become nurses. I'm sure it's just my social awkwardness, but I feel like as a woman there's this huge pressure to explain myself and downplay my choice. I know I can just let it sit there, but the feeling of comparison/competition that arises in the room becomes palpable in the silence.

Don't downplay your choice. Ask them straight up why they decided on nursing and if they'd considered medical school. Don't downplay their decision, but don't downplay yours either. This approach shows you don't think they are less intelligent than you because you're inferring they're smart enough to apply too. I usually get a response like, "That's too much work," "I couldn't take that many math and science classes," "I need to work while I'm in school because I'm a single mom," or "I need to be finished sooner to support my family." I often use something like, "Wow, maybe we'll end up working together in the hospital some day!" or simply "I completely understand." I tend to focus more on how my response can support them without minimizing what I'm doing.

When I get the question, "why in the world did you decide to go to medical school?" I always respond with, "I know it's not the right decision for most people, but it was definitely the right one for me." This way they know that although I'm happy with my decision, I don't judge others who choose differently.

 

[Darth Doc]

Not everyone is meant to be a stay at home mom? :-/

I tried the stay-at-home mom thing when my kids were little. I thought I would die. I hated it. It was horrible. Staying at home and homeschooling are valuable goals, but I hated every... single... solitary... minute. Many of my friends who did it loved it. More power to them. I like working. I love medicine. (And life is fun again.)

 

[Brorthopedic]

I'm only a 24 year old male (M1), so take what I say with a grain of salt, but I am quite surprised at the remarks you and others have received. It's 2016, I'd like to think there's more to a woman's life than to just foster a family.

 

[doyouhaveaflag]

Whoops, accidentally posted

 

[Darth Doc]

Occasionally, there are truly hostile comments about how selfish I am. I've even heard that from my own family, which hurts.

So yes, I'm very happy that avenues exist now to allow women who "want it all" to be able to achieve it. I just wish those of us that didn't weren't regarded as having pieces missing.

There's always someone who disagrees with our choices and who has to comment. I've gotten the "don't you have a TV", "you're not being environmentally responsible", and "did it take you that long to have a boy?" because of the number of kids we have. It's none of their business whether we have 0 or 15.

(I do think it's difficult for women who've centered decades of their lives around their kids to comprehend how anyone could feel complete without them. Not to justify their hurtful comments, but my life would be incomplete without my kids. I think your family thinks you're choosing to miss out on something that was/is the most important thing in their lives and they want you to have what they did. ---- unfortunately, sometimes what we say to our kids isn't really what's best for them.)