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The sign your d-school is way overcrowded...ahem BU (and USC)

Discussion in 'Pre-Dental' started by budentite, 02.09.12.


  1. Thanks to Crack the DAT
  1. budentite

    budentite

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    SDN Members don't see this ad. (About Ads)
    When booking appointments involves camping overnight in a line outside the school (class of '10 and earlier), similar to camping outside the Apple store for a product launch.

    Or when reserving a chair is like using Ticketmaster to try to get Paul McCartney tickets, except the window opens at a random time (BU presently). Complete with scalpers, in the form of an underground appointment "black market."
    Last edited: 02.09.12
  2. UCLAzy

    UCLAzy

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    wait u go to usc too?

    next.
  3. avangusva

    avangusva

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    These threads make me laugh hehehohohaha
  4. Double Bonded

    Double Bonded

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    Alright enough with the USC and BU bashing already. Some schools out there are preferable to others but in the end we will all be colleagues doing the same procedures and trying to be successful DDS/DMD's.
  5. woolloo

    woolloo

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    Nice point...seriously:thumbup:
  6. budentite

    budentite

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    That doesn't make sense.

    Exactly. So how would a person know if no one spoke about the issues? Don't kill the messenger.


    :confused:Dentists must have it great because it doesn't matter if you go to school at Harvard vs Ixtapa, or if you only did 4 crowns or didn't perform a root canal on a real person because,
  7. FLOSS UR TEETH

    FLOSS UR TEETH

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    Well, I will be the first to say it then. Thank you budentite for sharing your experience at BU. I am sure it will help someone.

    Just like in any other field of education, some schools will be better than others.
  8. timwatley

    timwatley

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    I disagree with this. If you didn't have threads like this there would be an unrealistic sugar coated view of every dental school. When you're going to fork over half a million dollars you dont want blurred vision. You need to know exactly what you're geting. These schools don't tell you their flaws during the interview. They try to sell you for the most part. Threads like this make SDN great.
  9. Double Bonded

    Double Bonded

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    Ahh I didn't realize that the OP was a dentist who graduated from BU (I only read the post and didn't see his Dentist status). My apologies and I agree that if you want to get the low down on what happens you have to go past the interview and listen to what the students are saying.
  10. Seamonkey Doc

    Seamonkey Doc

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    :thumbup:

    I realize that in the end, an average dentist from USC or BU will be as competent as an average dentist from any other school. But some people want to know the ugly aspects about schools they are interested in.
  11. hifive

    hifive

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    There are some people here (at BU), I wouldnt even let them get close to my neighbours dog. Realistically speaking there are average dentists here that probably dont match the skills to another schools average dental grad and probably never will. It's just complete facts, the adcom selects applicants that are below the mean compared to most other schools, and on top that the clinic training here is below par. I know its good to be optimistic and all, but I have to be realistic and say that some schools just have to be shut down if they operate without common sense and limit their students. It degrades the professions image, if a school is not producing top notch practitioners.
  12. Seamonkey Doc

    Seamonkey Doc

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    Well then...

    I was trying to be positive but that's just sad.
  13. timwatley

    timwatley

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    How long will it take students to realize when not to attend a school like that though? For every student that realizes its 'too much money for a crappy school' there are probably 100 that will eagerly take the spot. Schools won't shut down with a waiting list like that. Even the new schools that aren't accredited and don't qualify for federal loans yet (LECOM) have hundreds if not a thousand applicants drooling over the program. It would be nice if everybody would see the big picture because that would create a more competitive dental educational system. But there's such a demand for dental school admission right now that they can do anything they want. It's pretty sad actually.
  14. :thumbup:. Yep. As long as some1's willing to pay, dental schools aren't going to care.
  15. hifive

    hifive

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    Your right students will always be waiting in line to attend a school, it's in the ADA's hands to keep dentistry afloat, but they're to busy counting the future cash flow.
  16. budentite

    budentite

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    Some people will have a hard time dealing with all the unnecessary nonsense and hoops that BU makes you jump through, and those students will be at a significant disadvantage if they don't figure out how to "work their system" early on.

    Imagine if you lived in the suburbs and had to commute a long distance to campus, and have to camp out overnight on the school's doorstep with your classmates who live across the street from the school. With the online booking system, it is even harder to get appointments because it is set up in a way that makes it easier for people to abuse, and there is less than 1 chair per 3 clinically-eligible students.

    Or if the school gave you zero patients for the first 2 months of the year because of the severe shortage of patients, how can you compete with your classmate who was assigned 15 patients, when the 15 credit clinical course grade depends on the quantity of treatment you deliver? If you go to BU, you must recruit your own patients or make side deals with upper-classmen if you want to enter clinic with any patients. Is it right for the school to set up certain individuals for success, at the expense of setting up others for failure? How is that a level playing field? Those students can forget about specializing, and just pray they don't get dismissed.

    Tons of people only care about getting a degree. If I'm paying $100k/year for a minimum of 4 years, I'd rather learn as much as I can while I'm in dental school, than have to play catch-up after graduation because of my school's deficiencies.
  17. Seamonkey Doc

    Seamonkey Doc

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    :thumbup: :thumbup: for the last part

    It's possible that BU (or any other school with horror stories like this) applicants are not aware of this. After all, not everyone reads SDN. For example, I applied to BU but I wasn't invited for an interview. If I knew about the reputation (didn't use SDN much at the time), I wouldn't have spent money on the application fees or time with the supplemental app.

    Idk how BU structures their interviews and presentations but if schools can sell themselves well, people will buy. Even the ones who are aware of the not-so-great reputation.
  18. budentite

    budentite

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    No matter how bad a school gets, or how much they charge, as long as they can give out DMD/DDS degrees, thousands of people will line up. People just equate that Doctor = I'm Rich.
    I'm sure you've heard the joke: what do they call the grad with the worst skills/knowledge? answer: Doctor.

    It's the job of the ADA's Commission on Dental Accreditation (CODA) to ensure the quality of the school's program. The school goes through accreditation this year.
    Last time, the school's Dean was on the CODA, elected Chairman of the Commission. I'm curious to see what will happen this time around.
  19. Timpson

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    USC used to be like this but recent graduates and seniors have told me that they have had no problem getting patients and requirements done. 95% or more graduate on time now and the others usually have some personal problems. USC is in a poor area and has multiple mobile clinics and LA county hospital so we have a decent patient pool. The key is to be motivated and social. Unfortunately, the school doesn't just hand you the patients to get you out on time unless you have a good group practice director so you need to network. I personally know seniors that were done this fall and have had an entire semester to do CE classes amongst other things.
  20. NOLAdentist2016

    NOLAdentist2016

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    budentite, you seem to be on SDN all the time bashing BU. That's all fine and good if you want to "warn" people about how terrible BU is and all. But have you ever thought that instead of spending endless hours on the internet complaining, maybe you could be at the school advocating for yourself and doing everything possible to further your education? I know you make it seem like the school actively does everything in their power to make getting a dental education impossible, but I think you're being a tad dramatic here.
    Some schools certainly make it easier than others for their students to succeed, but from what I've heard, if you have a strong will to succeed and work hard to advocate for yourself, you can do well and get a good education at any school. I even had some BU students talk to me about this. It's like anything else in life: the people who will be successful are the people who stop complaining and just start doing.
  21. omnipoDent

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    Wrong. I interviewed there just this past fall and upperclassmen, including a senior that spoke with us at lunch, said they still have problems getting requirements done and getting patients. Listen, I understand you go there and want to talk up your school and usc has some good qualities, but that is no reason to lie about the problems. There are still some big problems with USC, and it hasn't changed in the past few months since I was there and spoke with students.
    Last edited: 02.10.12
  22. Kentuckylover

    Kentuckylover

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    Like
  23. wzhu

    wzhu

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    instead of being angry, why don't you try being productive
  24. ugashaun

    ugashaun

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    I'm going to send this thread bu along with a notice that I'm not accepting my seat.
  25. Bereno

    Bereno Smoking Monkey

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    +1 for being positive :)

    There is no shortage of BU/USC bashing threads on this forum; no need to start another.
  26. Maybe he is being productive and the time he spends on SDN is when he's waiting in line to book an appointment :laugh:

    Anyways, I don't know if these conditions at BU and USC are true or not, but if they are, he is doing a good thing by warning potential students. Assuming these allegations of BU are true. It's like falling for a scam. The scam is going to continue robbing people of money until someone speaks out.

    That being said. If my only acceptance was at BU, I would still attend. Partly because it still gives out the DMD/DDS degree and I'm not going to base my decision not to attend a school based solely on posts from anonymous people.
  27. Kentuckylover

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    Liked!
  28. budentite

    budentite

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    Thanks for the personal attack NOLA. A pre-dent giving a dentist advice...Now I just need a time machine in order to use said advice. It's okay, I'm sure you would have a different point of view after 4 years, and debt you may never be able to repay.

    It's not that the school wants to make dental education impossible, it's that the school is run so badly it makes no sense and ends up being very in-effective and unproductive. The clinical system is so crowded and unnecessarily complex, it's almost beyond repair - 95% of D3/D4s will tell you this. I spent more time waiting in line for faculty, than chairside with my patients. 12 students for 1 clinical instructor is rediculous. And no student should be forced into paying for their patients' treatment out of their own pockets. The fee schedule is so high, that the people in the neighborhood BU is located in end up going to the hospital down the block for dental treatment. That's a public health tragedy.

    You sort of have to "put up, or shut up," while in school. Now that I'm done, I'm free to speak up. Sure, I criticize BU a lot, but I have also given many suggestions for how to improve the program. The reason I even post on here is to bring attention to the school, with the hope that they will make big changes; warning prospective students is a part of that, but secondary.
  29. TheClutch

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    good intention but too late for that.
    if you are willing to do this again, then do it during May or June. Then it will pick up enough traffic to last till August. Applications for BU will drop by 60%.
    Last edited: 02.10.12
  30. budentite

    budentite

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    as discussed in another BU thread, this comes straight from the horse's mouth:

    (http://www.bu.edu/dental/files/pdf/ASPReportMarch2011_002.pdf)

    -Inadequate out-dated plant – too many people in too little space

    -Inadequate clinical lab space and availability, negatively impacting learning

    -The patient pool is too narrow and small. Many have Mass Health with too complex needs

    -Fair to poor patient access to School via public transport

    -Clinical systems that result in an excessively long time to actual treatment

    -An inbred faculty leading to lack of ideas from outside the Institution

    -The Dubai cost to income ratio and affect of current economic conditions

    -Tuition costs may steer students to high income careers and away from research and community services.

    -Lack of adequate accountability at manylevels

    -A lack of "customer service attitude" across the clinic

    -Low staff salaries lead to problems recruiting trained, competent staff

    -Uncertainty around how to rate GSDM's educational performance against other schools

    -Support staff feels excluded and "second class"

    -APEX, not well planned, monitored, and structured for maximum value

    -Little sense of community within the School

    -Inferior quality and outdated supporting materials in several courses


    Imagine the things that go on that they wouldn't publish.


    When BU knows of these problems but give interviewees the opposite impression, that's just misleading. Some may call it a scam. Not cool.:mad:
    Last edited: 02.10.12
  31. Timpson

    Timpson

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    You are wrong. Reread my post. These students might have some circumstances that are putting them at a disadvantage but if you are motivated and try to get patients there is not a problem. Here is a fact: 95% of last year's class graduated on time. Apparently 95% of USC seniors found enough patients to complete our requirements which are double that of many other schools. 5% of people not graduating on time is perfectly reasonable for a school like USC which sometimes admits less then stellar students. I don't know who you talked to but some of the more vocal people in this school are those that are not doing well or enjoying the experience.
  32. budentite

    budentite

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    Timpson, aren't you a D1, with 1.5 years to go before you start treating patients? Talking so strongly about important things that you have not been through is disingenuous. Forgiveness is granted since everyone (including myself) has talked up their school.

    Try re-reading your own post.
    From the ADA's accreditation standards for dental education, under curriculum management, Rule 2-8 in its entirety:

    "The dental school must ensure the availability of adequate patient experiences that afford all students the opportunity to achieve its stated competencies within a reasonable time."


    Making patient recruitment the responsibility of the student, or providing too few patients, is an accreditation violation. Period.
  33. little Buddy

    little Buddy

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    @budentite. Do you know if the new dean has done anything to help with these issues. I was just there and the students seemed very genuine and unscripted in their answers. They did complain about scheduling their own patients and patients not showing up but never about lack of patients.
  34. Timpson

    Timpson

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    I suppose you are right budentite. I guess I have spoken out for USC enough on here. I am just trying to provide a new perspective that USC has changed and that things are getting better. Unfortuneately we dont have many current 3rd or fourth year students on here talking about USC but from the conversations I have had with them and the times I am in clinic they tend to agree that things are changing for the better. I am in the 2nd class that is going throught the new curriculum and I am happy to be here at this time.

    I remember reading the horror stories about USC on here when I was applying and preparing for the worst. If you are a predent I would just advise you to listen only to students who attend this institution currently if you want advice on how things really are at USC. Don't listen to people who attend other schools or other predents.
  35. budentite

    budentite

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    Honestly, the current Dean is the problem. He served as Dean of BU's DMD program before being promoted 5 years ago. He has been 100% responsible for the program for decades. Much of the better faculty left around the time he was promoted, it's not just a coincidence. Only one great instructor remains, and he's the only reason the program has any credibility. Many of my upperclassman friends predicted the current Dean would run the school into the ground, but we all crossed our fingers that we would be gone before he could do too much damage. I'd rather not get too deep into it, but he has a totalitarian system of rule; people in the know fear retaliation. I'm sure you got an idea of this iron-fist rule, by how much the school worships the Dean, his vision, and how wonderful and essential he is if you interviewed there, in spite of all their problems which he is directly responsible for. It's very creepy and cult-like, BU's worship of him. Fixing BU will require someone on the outside to replace him.


    For example, one of the first things he did when becoming Dean was to tie students' 15 credit 3rd year clinical grade to the quantity of treatment delivered. He made this change in curicculum mid-year, replacing and regrading 5 other courses that were in progress for 6 months, which is another accreditation violation.

    Rule 2-1 states: "In advance of each course or other unit of instruction, students must be provided written information about the goals and requirements of each course, the nature of the course content, the method(s) of evaluation to be used, and how grades and competency are determined."

    The school did this to pressure students into overtreating patients because they don't have enough patients for everyone to satisfy their already low graduation requirements - only 50% of the '09 DMD class had met their graduation requirements on time. No wonder students end up paying for their patients' procedures. Not only does this quantitative grading criteria encourage unethical conduct by taking advantage of patients by forcing them into the most expensive, and sometimes unnecessary procedures, this is explicitly prohibited by the ADA's accreditation standards.

    Rule 5-8 states: "the use of quantitative criteria for student advancement and graduation must not compromise the delivery of comprehensive patient care."


    Those students you meet in interviews are hand-picked. Every one that I knew was applying to some specialty program, which requires the Dean's recommendation. They have received favorable treatment, including more patients than their peers. They would never allow random students, especially the ones with fewest patients, to interact with interviewees.
  36. little Buddy

    little Buddy

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    Yea I'm sure they're hand picked but I'm talking about the students who we met along the tour and the ones I talked to the day before the interview outside.
  37. budentite

    budentite

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    Thanks for being a good sport Timpson. Your school had a rough time in accreditation in '08 and were given 2 years to make major improvements and report back to the ADA. I'm sure they made a huge effort to try to improve their deficiencies, and I'm sure it's much better now than 3 years ago. That said, I bet some of their prior issues still linger, but at a lesser level.

    There have been horror stories about BU Dental on this site for nearly a decade, and they got a free pass last time they were accredited since the Dean was a member (even being elected Chairman) of the ADA's accrediting body. I fully expect BU to have difficulty during this year's accreditation, and I'm sure they will have to make major changes for the better. Almost no one posts on sdn once they graduate, and I hate to be the one exposing them, but they say that sulight is the best disinfectant, and ultimately this is in the best interest of the public.



    You said you're "banking on BU", and assume you haven't been accepted anywhere else since you interviewed so late. You've heard the good and bad, and you're the one that has to live with your decision. I won't make it for you.

    Take everything you hear on-site with a spoonful of salt. Maybe if you went to the bar and got those people sauced, you'd hear something different. I hated my last 2 years there but never would have criticized BU, especially while on campus, during my time there out of fear of retaliation. When a student got swine flu, the media came but we were told to shut up (in a not so ambiguously veild threat). In my 4 years there, I never said a bad thing about BU to any interviewee, even though I wanted to.
    Last edited: 02.10.12
  38. ta11geese3

    ta11geese3

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    I talked with a 4th year BU student last fall when I was doing my BU secondary. He was telling me how if he could do it all over again... he'd still go to BU, cause it's the only school he got into =\ But if he did get into another school, he would've gone there instead...
  39. NOLAdentist2016

    NOLAdentist2016

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    I interviewed at BU back in October and I went it there thinking that it would be the worst school ever, thanks to SDN. I basically wrote it off before I got there. However, my view of the school changed for the better after interviewing there.

    The admission staff sure tried to dazzle and impress us, just like some of the other schools I interviewed at. They tried to make us think that BU was amazing and had all these great things and programs to offer. However, I think any slightly intelligent person (most people applying to dental school, myself included), would be able to see past all the smoke and mirrors and really decide for themselves what they like/dislike about the school and what it is truly like. I know that not everything that they told us was true, and that they definately fed us some BS. I think with a little research of the school, it was easy to differentiate these two things. Sure, they made some overstatements and probably some false promises about what they have to offer, but like I said, I think that it's easier to really evaluate the situation once you see it for yourself, rather than from some angry BU grad on the internet. They did have a few nice things to offer and it does seem like they are actively trying to improve things, especially the patient scheduling ordeal. I don't know how well this is going, but at least they admit that it is something to work on.

    I, personally, have decided not to go to BU, since I have other acceptances at schools that I liked better and had better reputations. However, if it was my only choice, or if I was choosing between BU and other similar schools, I would have no problem going to BU. I would go in, put up with whatever I had to, and come out as a dentist. Sure, I could complain a lot, but as long as I come up in 4 years with a DMD/DDS and can secure a job, than I think everything would be ok.

    (But like you said budentite, i'm just a stupid like pre-dent, and i'm sure i don't know anything!)
  40. Kentuckylover

    Kentuckylover

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    Sorry to hear that, but have you ever imagined that there could be people out there who would love to take your spot at BU and still be happy with what you went through. Sometimes, you just need be positive and be happy with what you got.

    Aren't you a dentist already? Yes, you are a DDS already. People fall and stand up... so do dental schools.

    Didn't you have fun in Boston though? Share some of your good experiences at BU. GROW UP ↑ dentist

    (Just like you said, I am just pre-dent and am sure I don't know anything!)
  41. HeyCharlie

    HeyCharlie

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    ADA needs to start shutting down some incompetent schools. I won't mention any in particular.
  42. little Buddy

    little Buddy

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    Can you tell us about your externship experience? That is the most appealing aspect of BU for me but I was wondering if the only options are hospital/ community clinics or is there an option for a private practice where we would see a different demographic of patients?
  43. budentite

    budentite

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    Another fine example of people who only care about getting a degree, and not the quality of their education.
    If you would be happy about a lifetime of debt for a poorly administered, bottom of the barrel education, please go to BU and free up a spot at another school.
    If you would be happy ripping off patients, subjecting them to unnecessary procedures/mutilation, like they do at BU, then you shouldn't be in a healthcare profession.

    Pre-dents by definition have zero first hand knowledge of the dental school experience. It's like taking golf lessons from someone who has never actually swung a club or played a round on a real course.

    The externship is possibly the worst aspect of the school for some students. The reason it exists is to act as a bandage for the school's lack of patients and overcrowded facilities. It allows the school to keep 25% of the D4 class out of its own clinics since the students are out of town. Some of the externship sites are horrible. The better sites have restrictions like you must speak certain foreign languages, live out of state, or own a car. One of the sites is a homeless shelter - if you get stuck there, you won't get the necessary procedures towards fulfilling your graduation quotas (they present with different needs, plus multi-appointment procedures are logistically impossible for them). A private practice option, :laugh:, you're dreaming.

    When the average BU grad gets half his graduation quotas through the off-site externship, it tells you a lot about how bad the situation is with the school's own clinics, and site-selection becomes super important. Without the externship, or if you are stuck at a bad site, it would take twice as long to complete graduation quotas.

    What is really outrageous is that the Advanced Standing class doesn't do this externship because BU gives them so many more patients, to the detriment of the DMD classes, so they don't have to go off-site, even though they only have 1 year to complete identical graduation requirements.
  44. little Buddy

    little Buddy

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    SDN 2+ Year Member
    Since procedures done on the externship now count towards requirements (not sure when that was implemented) I would imagine this takes a lot of stress away. Also, I'm not sure but it sounded like there are two tiers of competency requirements: x number of basic procedures needed to be met -fulfilled during externship or in clinic- and then the final competency procedure or more complex procedures needed to take place back in the clinic. I was wondering if you could further elaborate on how the competency is fulfilled. After these competencies are met, what next? lol

    Also, how is the situation with the wet lab? I didn't have a great look at it but it seemed to be pretty busy.
  45. Kentuckylover

    Kentuckylover

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    Oh, don't worry lol I am not going to BU. I didn't even apply to BU :)
  46. USCMASTER

    USCMASTER

    Joined:
    02.28.12
    Messages:
    6
    why we comparing two schools?

    In the end, does it make you feel better that you are attending a better school or something. That kind of mentality won't get you very far, socially and academically. You thinking o I'm better because I'm at a better school. Well heads up, how bout those people at Ivy league schools, they probably look down at 90% of dental students. But, I don't think they have that kind of mentality. People who compare themselves to others are only crap themselves. They only compete with people who are in their league, but not those out of their league. They lust for people's weakness, which ultimately gives them the drive to accomplish things. All I'm trying to advocate is be glad at what you have. Don't look down at others. Plenty of people in Africa, in Asia, everywhere that you look down to, IF you really have that kind of mentality.

    This answer is not directed to anyone in particular.

    Be glad you got accepted, lot's of people here are depressed because they can't get accepted. Instead of bickering about stuff like o UCLA or USC, NYU or Loma Linda, Roseman or UNLV, who the hell cares. Everyone has their own situation, some people got into BU and not USC, and some people got into USC and not BU. In the end, we all come out as DDS/DMD and trying to help the community.
  47. omnipoDent

    omnipoDent

    Joined:
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    SDN 2+ Year Member
    Well, if the whole dentistry thing doesn't work out, you obviously have the foundation for a future in psychology.:rolleyes:
  48. hifive

    hifive

    Joined:
    12.05.11
    Messages:
    152
    Location:
    boston
    Status:
    Dental Student
    I hope I dont come across as rude or arrogant, but some schools just suck compared to others, yes every graduate will have DDS/DMD but if they are not properly trained they are risking the wellbeing of their patients.
  49. Kentuckylover

    Kentuckylover

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    SDN 2+ Year Member
    This is how I look at it.

    Properly trained? I feel like every dental school will teach you good enough to become an okay dentist. However, I feel like you make your own decision whether you want to be a competitive dentist. Furthermore, you will know and realize what you are lacking, so you know what to fix. If you don't fix when you already know what you are missing, then you are just a big slacker who likes to blame your dental school lol

    I might be biased because I come from military. I am used to hearing "Be happy with what you have and complete the mission no matter what happens" I personally think that it doesn't really matter where you go as long as you try your best. If your dental school provides better education and many opportunities, then good for you. If not, then you just gotta hustle your ass and keep practicing until you become competitive.

    :) Go Hoos
    Last edited: 02.29.12
  50. Seamonkey Doc

    Seamonkey Doc

    Joined:
    08.11.10
    Messages:
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    Status:
    Pre-Dental
    Well said.

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