Thoughts needed for a mediocre PhD going to MD

[billybob bobo]

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[Heplayer92]

You'll probably get some good feedback here: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/forums/what-are-my-chances.418/

As for your weaknesses, I don't think your GPA is a problem. Engineering notoriously has lower GPA averages, so a 3.5 is pretty respectable in my opinion.
A 33 on the MCAT is a great score, 90% percentile. A 9 is not bad at all on verbal. MCAT is solid. No need for a re-take really.

The biggest concern that could arise is your lack of clinical experience which you have mentioned. Also, you've gone the PhD route and your love/success regarding research is apparent. I think the big question will be...why do you want an MD? Why do you want to be a doctor instead of contributing

I'm not sure how LoRs work for non-traditionals...but generally they want science faculty who have taught you. Maybe it's less of a deal since you're obviously very proficient in the sciences =D

Anyways, just my $0.02. As a fellow first generation college student, best of luck!

 

[Plecopotamus]

How did you come up with that list of schools? It's top heavy and inconsistent in character/mission of institution.

why are your gpas in grad school as low as they are? you're effectively declaring you're doing something you love when you get a phd -- I'd be wary of a low gpa phd applicant, b/c I expect people to shine when doing what they love . . . and if they don't love it, leave the funding for someone else.

why are you applying without clinical experience? I think that's a HUGE problem--you've already transitioned fields more than once, and you want to convince an adcom this is what you really want to do, when you have no evidence you know what you're getting into or that you like it enough to keep doing it.

 

[kraskadva]

The bolded things below are what would worry me.

Profile:

Graduate (non-thesis masters): mid-tier state school in the South, Chemical Engineering,
-cGPA 3.4
Graduate (PhD): respectable state school in the South, Graduate Program in Cancer Biology
-cGPA 3.65

Leadership: 600 hrs split between two groups that I founded. One was a politically oriented group that I risked marking as a significant experience since I spent several years rising through the ranks of the national organization coordinating other groups. I pointed out that my experiences actually made me more understanding of other people's beliefs and tried to be vague about the actually beliefs/activities of the group.

Paid employment: 1100 hrs. Nothing special. The school where I had the aborted chemical eng PhD gave me a job as an assistant lab manager in the year in between going my next PhD program.

Shadowing: 40+ hrs with three MDs. Two of these are my "co-mentors" on my PhD project who I have worked with for the past 3 years and expect to provide decent LORs.


-Having to explain why I want to have four degrees.


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Anticipated schools to apply to (lots of reaches, still looking for safety):

Pitt
Emory
UNC
UAB
Rochester
Wake
Brown
UVA
MUSC
UF
Georgetwn
Dartmouth
VCU
TJU

Your UGgpa is not super high but not terrible, but as @Plecopotamus said, typically grad gpas are much higher and you'll probably have to explain (in secondaries or if you get an interview) why yours is low.

Why are you being vague about the beliefs/activities of the political group you worked with? This makes me worry that the group did something scandalous/unethical/amazingly stupid.

Employment- I'm guessing you're in the 27-30 age range... please tell me you've worked full time more than 6 months out of your entire life. At this point even just summer jobs should add up to more than that.

Shadowing: On the basis of one full week's worth of time you're making the decision to change your career path yet again? To take on hundreds of thousands in debt and a decade-ish of additional training? Not saying this to be antagonistic, but I'm not seeing any passion or a well-reasoned decision process. Not saying it doesn't exist, just that you haven't shown it here. Hopefully you showed more of it in AMCAS.

Schools- where are you in-state for? Hit that state school and all the neighboring ones. Crack the MSAR and go for more in your stats range.

If you have to reapply, there's not much you can do about the gpas, but you can do a heck of a lot about the shadowing/clinical experience side of things in a year.
Good luck to you!

 

[QofQuimica]

Definitely start volunteering in a clinical setting ASAP. Your lack of clinical experience is by far your biggest Achilles heel and may prevent you from getting accepted this year. A substantial record of clinical experience is important enough for an already two-time career changer like you that, had you asked us before you submitted your AMCAS, I would have suggested you consider waiting a year before applying to build up that part of your app.

Also agree with whomever said that your school selection shows no clear strategy and could use some revamping. Do you have a copy of the MSAR? If not, get hold of one, because it's going to be your bible for this process of selecting schools.

First, most Southern states strongly protect their state med school seats for in-state residents. So you need to apply to all of your state schools, because as a Southerner, they are hands down your best shot at getting into med school. For the same reason, you should not apply to most OOS Southern state schools unless you are a stellar applicant with strong ties. My state is no exception. UF is our most competitive state med school here in FL and takes very few OOS applicants. Even without the significant disadvantage of being an OOS applicant, your stats are around their average, not stellar. So especially if you do not have strong ties to the state of FL, UF is going to be a reach school for you, not a safety school. On the other hand, if you are a FL resident, then you should definitely apply to UF, as well as to all of the other FL state schools. Applicants from the Sunshine State are more blessed than just about anywhere else in the country when it comes to having a lot of state med schools with protected seats, so if you're a Floridian, don't waste your home court advantage.

Second, you said you have a long record of significant nonclinical volunteering, so it may be worth considering some of the private Southern schools like Miami and Tulane that are big on community service and helping the underserved.

Third, if you want to branch out further, forget the Northeast. You and 10,000 other premeds are all dreaming of living in DC, NYC, Boston, or Philly for the next four years of med school. But as someone with strong but not amazing stats, you should instead be targeting schools in the Midwest that take a lot of OOS applicants and that get half the number of applications based simply upon geographic location. OH in particular is very friendly to OOS applicants. Since you're applying to Pitt anyway, consider adding a few of the OH schools on.

 

[billybob bobo]

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[Goro]

You are NOT competitive until you get some clinical volunteer work under your belt. We understand that you've been very busy with grad school, but the other applicants find time to get their schooling and EC done at the same time. Getting all your clinical ECs at the last minute doesn't look good, either.


-No clinical volunteer work. I'm currently in training to volunteer in oncology at the hospital where I do my research, and would probably have 2-3 months of clinical volunteer work to talk about by the time I received any interviews in Nov./Dec.


Your numbers are mediocre for Pitt and UVA, especialy if you're not a VA resident. The other state schools, except VCU, heavily favor the home team. Stick to your state schools, invest in MSAR Online and target strategically.

 

[FutureDrB]

Like Goro said above, clinical volunteering is vital.
You can find the time. I did all of clinical volunteering during grad school, while working and in addition to other things.
Where there's a will there's a way.

 

[Plecopotamus]

Thanks for the responses, especially recommendations on schools, Q. I have the MSAR and my school selection is sort of complicated.

I am very aware of the short-comings of my application. For this reason I have only actually paid for the initial AMCAS verification while I think over what other schools to submit to, and more importantly, whether to pull the plug on the application before it gets verified. If I pull the plug, I'm out the AMCAS and transcript submission fees. Yes, it's obvious that a lot of this appears rushed. This has a lot to do with a strong impulse to avoid delaying entry by a year as well as from one of my MD co-mentors who keeps assuring me that I'd make a great candidate for med-school. I've offered him my hesitation about this which he thinks is unwarranted. He's about 20+ years out of med school and isn't associated with the adcom here so I take his encouragement with a grain of salt. This is ultimately why I posted my profile to get a few other thoughts.

Addressing some of the comments:

Why go into medicine: I understand this is my greatest challenge to overcome in my PS and interviews with my application as it stands now. It's true that it's not obvious.

Graduate GPA:
-the 3.4 GPA from my non-thesis masters has at least some justification. This is based on the 8 classes needed to complete the chemical engineering graduate curriculum. In addition to being the most difficult classes I've ever taken, I was dealing directly with a mentally ill family member for the first two years which encompassed these classes. I have very vivid memories of leaving my study group the night before an advanced transport phenomena exam to go off for four hours and talk down this person from committing suicide. Counter to some people's impression of grad school, plenty of people make Cs and sometimes lower, and so pulling Bs in some classes isn't a gimme.

-the 3.65 from my PhD is a result of Bs in first year classes and As in advanced classes.

-if I loved what I was doing in grad school, I wouldn't be pursuing medicine. I'm happy doing what I'm doing, and plan to finish out the PhD, but it isn't love.

Political activities: The nature of the group was activism involving small "l" libertarian ideas. Just engaging the student body the way College Dems or College Reps do without promoting any candidates or political party. The reason I downplay the specific beliefs are obvious. My personal beliefs are in the minority and despite the politics involved at the higher levels of medicine, its only a liability at the lower levels, esp pre-med. I gained a lot of leadership experience working through this group as well as an appreciation for beliefs other than my own which is the reason I feel it's an important experience.

Employment: I spent the first two summers going home to work construction with my dad (didn't put this on my app). The next two summers were spent at other universities doing research. Every summer after that (except the in between time where I was a lab manager) was spent doing research in grad school.

I understand that you wouldn't be switching to medicine if you loved your field of PhD. If you felt that way, however, you shouldn't have pursued the PhD. If you're a person who didn't realize that before you were knee deep in the PhD, why in the world would I think you could know how you feel about medicine when you haven't even stuck your toe in?

I'm not asking that to be mean. I'm asking, because that's what I'd wonder when reviewing your application. As someone who has twice pursued graduate degrees in the "wrong" field, I'd also set the bar higher than average for you to convince me you have made an informed and proper decision. Honestly, I'd pull the plug on this year unless you want to take a shot at your state school(s) AND your stats are above avg there.

Talk is cheap. There is essentially nothing you could write in a PS that would get me to look past this big hole in your app. I realize you can explain everything away . . . but with plenty of applicants who don't have anything to explain, will you even get the chance?

 

[kraskadva]

I agree with the above (also fyi Q and Goro are two of the most helpful senior people around here and tend to give really good advice)

To add an additional small bit of perspective- I'm going through the application cycle now myself and in the last month alone I've dropped >$3000 on application fees. Cutting your losses at <$200 seems pretty minor to me.
Another year of preparation could put you in the running, but without a good showing (not just saying) for why you want a MD, I think any more money you throw at this now is likely to be wasted.

 

[QofQuimica]

Thanks for the responses, especially recommendations on schools, Q. I have the MSAR and my school selection is sort of complicated.

I am very aware of the short-comings of my application. For this reason I have only actually paid for the initial AMCAS verification while I think over what other schools to submit to, and more importantly, whether to pull the plug on the application before it gets verified. If I pull the plug, I'm out the AMCAS and transcript submission fees. Yes, it's obvious that a lot of this appears rushed. This has a lot to do with a strong impulse to avoid delaying entry by a year as well as from one of my MD co-mentors who keeps assuring me that I'd make a great candidate for med-school. I've offered him my hesitation about this which he thinks is unwarranted. He's about 20+ years out of med school and isn't associated with the adcom here so I take his encouragement with a grain of salt. This is ultimately why I posted my profile to get a few other thoughts.

I agree with him that you're going to be a perfectly fine candidate for medical school once you get your app tuned up. Just not this year. Again, and as others have also pointed out, the lack of clinical experience is a major problem with your app, possibly a big enough problem to prevent you from getting an acceptance with an otherwise competitive app. Fortunately, unlike a 2.5 GPA, this is a relatively easy problem to fix, and it can be fixed relatively quickly. All you have to do is start volunteering 2-4 hours/week in a clinical setting over the next year. The gig you proposed at your local hospital would be fine. Concerning what else to do during the gap year, I'd suggest either post-docking or working as an instructor. Relax, smell the magnolias, and enjoy life a little. Save up some money. Go to the gym four days a week. Hang out with your family and friends. I jumped straight out of my PhD into med school with no break, and it ain't all it's cracked up to be.

Political activities: The nature of the group was activism involving small "l" libertarian ideas. Just engaging the student body the way College Dems or College Reps do without promoting any candidates or political party. The reason I downplay the specific beliefs are obvious. My personal beliefs are in the minority and despite the politics involved at the higher levels of medicine, its only a liability at the lower levels, esp pre-med. I gained a lot of leadership experience working through this group as well as an appreciation for beliefs other than my own which is the reason I feel it's an important experience.

Libertarian ideas are much more mainstream than you might expect. When I lived in AL, my ex and I used to go out canvassing and collecting signatures to help Libertarian party candidates get on the ballot. (He was also a bit of an Objectivist; me, less so.) I don't think my political leanings ever came up at any of my med school interviews, including at UAB (which accepted me) or any of the other Deep South schools. It's not like being a libertarian is illegal or immoral, and most physicians can sympathize greatly with the idea of wanting less government intrusion into the lives of individual citizens. Now if you were doing something like volunteering with Planned Parenthood to escort women past protesters into their clinic, that would be a lot stickier of an issue, just because so many people in this country are opposed to abortion. You'd be right to be cautious about featuring that kind of polarizing activity on your app.

 

[billybob bobo]

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