Time to jump ship?

[Izanagi]

I'm currently enrolled in a direct six-year PharmD program and am about to enter my second year. Had I been given the luxury of choosing my major, I would have gone the computer science route and hopefully ended up working as a software developer (I even got accepted into top-tier CS programs at UC Berkeley and UIUC out of high school). I'm rather introverted, flat-footed, and enjoy working with computers and programming, so a desk job seemed ideal for me. My parents disagreed, however, deeming the tech industry too unstable and competitive, so they forced me into pharmacy school instead, promising me an easy life with good job security, a lucrative salary, and the ability to live wherever I want (i.e. California). I was naive and sort of resigned myself to it in hopes that pharmacy really was my ticket to CA. I've wanted to live there all my life, after all. And seeing how easily I breezed through my first year with a 4.0 GPA, I'm pretty confident I'll at least finish with my degree and at the top of my class. While I find it all very dull, I can't say I hate what I'm studying either.

However, after interning at Walgreens and doing some research of my own, I'm really starting to believe this field isn't for me, and that my parents and school have told me nothing but lies. I absolutely hate standing on my feet for long hours dealing with irate and sick old people in a fast-paced environment. I'm also reading a bunch of doom-and-gloom stories about the saturated the job market, the worsening working conditions in retail, the salary cuts and vanishing sign-on bonuses, and the cutthroat competition to secure a spot in residency.

I've already reapplied and made the preparations necessary to transfer to UIUC's CS program. But something's holding me back. It's the small glimmer of hope that maybe I won't have to work retail in some hick town, that maybe my academic standing and motivation to not work in retail is enough to carry me all the way to and through post-grad, that maybe the economy will rebound and the job market will equilibrate and pharmacists nationwide will unionize and advocate for all these diploma mills to quit popping up and for better working conditions. After all, pharmacy's only major deterrent for me so far is the retail aspect, so on the off-chance that I somehow manage to land a non-retail position out in California, even at a lower salary, I can settle for that. And even though my test scores are up to snuff, CS at UIUC will be very tough, and now I'm leaning towards sticking with the easier major if it'll pay off just as well.

So what are your thoughts? Do you think "not wanting to work retail" is a strong enough conviction alone to drag myself all the way through pharmacy school and residency? Do you believe all the doom-and-gloom stories that plague SDN and Indeed.com, or do you believe the job market will improve for pharmacists within the next five years? I'm torn between two majors and I really don't know what to do.

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[anewmanx]

From one bad ship to another?

You should take into consideration that you will be competing with a massive crowd of H1B visa programmers willing to work for less than you, so much so that the H1B visa caps are filling up in the first month they come open each year.

I was a computer programmer when I was younger. I got my first internship when I was still in high school at 16. I programmed in Java, C, Perl, Asp, Javascript, VBScript, Dhtml, Pascal, Basic, Assembly, and had cursory knowledge of a number of other areas. I designed databases, had to do additional graphic design work because my employer was cheap.

I even, many moons later, got back into programming briefly when I was designing hardware using 8 bit pic microchip systems.

My brother is a system admin for the federal government and was a network admin in the air force.

What I've learned through the years is that the continuing education requirements soooooo much worse with programming. You will always be required to pick up the latest fad in programming. Whether it be Objective C, Ruby on Rails, some new bizarre server side implementation of Java that is being touted as great. Php until yor fingers bleed.

Then there is the difference between programming as a student and as an employee. You will find that they are two different worlds. There's nothing more infuriating than being told by your manager, who has never written code a day in his life, that you have to write a program a certain way. THE WRONG WAY, inefficient, and with unrealistic deadlines. Then there's the unrealistic expectations you will get when the team reviewing the program decide they want to radically change the interface to meet the desires of the test panel. Yet again, no one understands how difficult it can be to make drastic changes.

Even my brother who is a system admin is continually having to attend classes and get new certifications. It's a racket. Nothing changes but the name or version number on the hardware/software, minor minor changes, but you have to take a whole new test and pay a whole new fee.

If you want to live a shorter lifespan go into Computer Science. There's a reason I would rather carve my eyes out with a hot spoon than go back into programming or venture into embedded systems. And I've been using computers since Dos and 16 color video games. I hated programming, as a career (loved it as a hobby,) so bad that I went into correctional work in a maximum security prison, and later became a combat medic in the Army. Those were preferable jobs to programming, even with the pay cut.

Consider finance, petroleum engineering, medical school, anything but Computer Sciences.

 

[Momus]

You are still in 2nd year undergrad? Jump ship now.

CS major has so much more flexibility than pharmacy and higher compensation at the end. You can work any where part time, full time, at home with CS major, make your own passive business. The big mega trend is here to stay, everyone needs software. Fu3k pharmacy.

Pharmacy is dead, will only get worse, you will have none to small flexibility of jumping jobs in pharmacy with massive influx of new graduates every year. Wages are stagnant at ~120k. Economy has already rebounded, is alive and well... not just pharmacy job prospects.

 

[BMBiology]

First, let me say if you are moving to California, you need to bring you own water!

Yes, the saturation is true especially in California. I think 4 additional California schools will be graduating their first or second class in 4 years. This will not change until pharmacy schools start to close. That won't happen for at least 10 years. Pharmacy schools are still expanding and opening. Just take a look at the pre-pharmacy forum. There is still a lot of interest even though many already know there is a saturation. Like you, they also think they will be different.

Don't hold out hopes for a non-retail job. I would say at least 70% of the jobs are retail or retail like.

Keep in mind the cream in this profession doesn't always float to the top. A lot of it is who you know and your appearance (yes, superficial reasons).

You just started college. You can still make mistakes and change course. It would not affect your long term career goals. The longer you wait, the harder it would be for you to get out.

Tell your parents that computer science is your passion. Tell them pharmacy has changed and it will get worse. If they don't believe you, have them apply for a pharmacist job and see how many replies they get.

Move to SF. Go to Cal. Change the world.

Disclaimer: most likely you won't change the world but I like to just say it.

 

[Momus]

H1B workers are actually getting paid more than Americans. Sorry to say, but immigrants generally work harder and better than Americans counterparts. Thus, the wage premium.

 

[anewmanx]

H1B workers are actually getting paid more than Americans. Sorry to say, but immigrants generally work harder and better than Americans counterparts. Thus, the wage premium.

Well, I can't argue that foreign people will work harder.

I hired a Nicaraguan metalworker to rebuild the floor and re-weld the seat structures on my 65 Volkswagen. Took him and his assistant three days to do the majority of the work. Price? $100.

 

[sunshao]

If u r going to CS just cause u think it is a better field, I personally don't think so. Even though pharmacy has gotten popular, it is nowhere near the population of ppl who r going/have a CS degree. Just like pharmacy, CS is all about who u know to land a good job. U can't really work anywhere with a CS degree cause most companies are located in cali and want u to be there. Many don't make it doing private business. Also, there are free sites that can give u pretty good CS skills without the degree. I also agree with JAFX that u will have to learn new trendy languages that come out and take a lot of crapt from ppl who think they are tech savvy.

 

[Momus]

Well, I can't argue that foreign people will work harder.

I hired a Nicaraguan metalworker to rebuild the floor and re-weld the seat structures on my 65 Volkswagen. Took him and his assistant three days to do the majority of the work. Price? $100.

You should educate yourself on how H1B process work. Visa will only be approved if employers pay at least prevailing wage or above (This rule exists to protect the American citizens who cry that H1B workers depress wages). By that definition alone, all H1B workers will get paid at least the same, if not more than average worker in the industry.

 

[anewmanx]

You should educate yourself on how H1B process work. Visa will only be approved if employers pay at least prevailing wage or above (This rule exists to protect the American citizens who cry that H1B workers depress wages). By that definition alone, all H1B workers will get paid at least the same, if not more than average worker in the industry.

At least back in 05 employers were finding ways to skirt the rules.

http://www.workpermit.com/news/2005_10_26/us/us_h1b_visa_holders_earn_less.htm

More recent entertaining examples:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021103361

 

[PharmtoCS]

I would say that part of the reason that the health professions have become popular was due to the fear of H1Bs and offshore workers taking all the other STEM jobs. People sought 'stable,' 'recession-proof,' and 'unoutsourceable' jobs in healthcare after the recession, but we learned that these professions are not as stable as they appear. Physicians are seeing their salaries decrease due to reimbursement cuts and graduates from newly opened schools of nursing, pharmacy, etc. have flooded the job market leading to high unemployment rates.

The economy is recovering, and fears of foreigners taking American jobs have been exaggerated, if not felt significantly. The unemployment rate of computer engineers is currently about 2.8%, compared to ~5% (probably with many more underemployed) for pharmacists. Headhunters from tech companies such as LinkedIn, Facebook, Google, etc. are snatching up any programmer they can find. Some recent CS graduates I know are getting $100k+ starting salaries with the big tech firms, and that is without the $150k+ loans and 4 years of lost salary incurred from pharmacy school.

 

[anon89]

You sound just like me, I LOVE programming and was put into pharmacy school the same exact way you were. I graduated and I'm now working a retail job. I spent 6 months after I got licensed looking for one.

Would I be happier being a programmer? I don't know -- because I never went that route. What I can say though, is that I hate what I'm doing now and perhaps, I would rather be doing something that I enjoy. But just like jafx mentioned, it may be another bad ship. I don't know.

I go back and forth like this all the time, and I think that even if I fought back and went into programming, I'd still be wondering how pharmacy was, but at least I'd know that I went with something that I liked.

 

[anewmanx]

Another thing to consider:

The chances of being a successful business owner programmer.... noooot so great. Always facing a deadline and searching for your next contract.

The chances of owning your own successful pharmacy and making more than retail, quite good. Once you establish your customer base it's a much more relaxed situation... theoretically.

 

[BMBiology]

Here are a few articles to show your parents if needed:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3687123/
http://www.post-gazette.com/local/r...rning-out-too-many-grads/stories/201310270094
http://www.marketplace.org/topics/life/overdose-pharmacy-students

I am not saying CS is better or would be a great career. I have a couple of good friends who are in CS and it's very competitive. You need to be on top of your game. Not an easy thing to do when you are 30 years old with a family to support and raise. Just prepare yourself and be ready to give it your all.

 

[sunshao]

Another thing to consider:

The chances of being a successful business owner programmer.... noooot so great. Always facing a deadline and searching for your next contract.

The chances of owning your own successful pharmacy and making more than retail, quite good. Once you establish your customer base it's a much more relaxed situation... theoretically.

yup, u got a better chance making it on ur own in pharmacy. Being a programmer will always lead to someone telling u what to do cause programming alone does not amount to much in terms of a finished product like a game or app...etc.

 

[BMBiology]

yup, u got a better chance making it on ur own in pharmacy. Being a programmer will always lead to someone telling u what to do cause programming alone does not amount to much in terms of a finished product like a game or app...etc.

I am not addressing you specifically but would student loans affect your chance to get a business loan from the bank?

 

[Gombrich12]

Most likely you're looking at 7+ years of training if you don't want to be in retail and work in california. So, I don't really think pharmacy is going to be any easier than CS. When you finish your residency in 2020 or 2021 things are going to be a lot different. Thinking it through neither option is very exciting, you might want to keep looking around at other career fields.

 

[anewmanx]

For most business loans you're going to have to personally guarantee the loan. Which means your credit score and DTI come into play.

More than likely, you will either have to open an established business so that you can figure in cutting yourself a salary to satisfy DTI numbers, or you're going to have to keep working enough to have a qualifying DTI while you get the business up and running.

While they don't disqualify you by themselves, they are a drag on your DTI. That is, of course, barring you being approved for a forbearance, deferment, etc.. at that point, I'm not sure how the individual underwriter will calculate your DTI. At that point it would more likely rely more heavily on the projected income of the business after the date your deferment would expire. The current DTI and projected income are heavy matters to consider for a bank offering such a large amount of money to a borrower.

 

[PharmtoCS]

If you intend to work for a tech company, you'll have recruiters fighting over you for talent. This contrasts with pharmacy chain stores constantly threatening to replace you with a new grad who will work for less.

Owning a tech startup is extremely competitive, as there are many others who hope to get rich through either an IPO or by being bought up by one of the bigger firms. Owning a pharmacy would be more stable in the long run but the barrier to entry (startup costs, regulations, paperwork, etc.) is much higher. You also have to deal with declining reimbursement rates audits.

Also, if you look at many lists of best companies to work for, you'll find mostly tech companies such as Google, LinkedIn, Facebook, etc. near the top. How many chain retail pharmacies do you see?

 

[BidingMyTime]

That is a tough choice to make. Jumping ship now would be easy to do and save you money in the long run. I'm suspect though that CS will not be the ideal panacea that you are imagining it is, and there will be aspects of the job you dread just as much as pharmacy. Another option (an expensive one), get your pharmacy degree, and if you really hate pharmacy, then go and get a CS degree. Having a pharmacy/CS degree would help you get a niche job of designing pharmacy computer systems.....although this route will definitely limit where you can work. It sounds like you have excellent grades, are you at a school where you could possibly get a dual major in pharmacy & CS....I think that would be the good compromise route. Also, would parental support be cut off if you changed majors? That is also something to consider.

 

[Izanagi]

You sound just like me, I LOVE programming and was put into pharmacy school the same exact way you were. I graduated and I'm now working a retail job. I spent 6 months after I got licensed looking for one.

Would I be happier being a programmer? I don't know -- because I never went that route. What I can say though, is that I hate what I'm doing now and perhaps, I would rather be doing something that I enjoy. But just like jafx mentioned, it may be another bad ship. I don't know.

I go back and forth like this all the time, and I think that even if I fought back and went into programming, I'd still be wondering how pharmacy was, but at least I'd know that I went with something that I liked.

Seems you're also a gamer(?) and Zelda fan. High five!

I am aware that CS is competitive, and it's especially true for the school I'll be attending. For chrissake, I'm going to be competing with undergrads among which a good 20%+ are international Chinese students who could probably run circles around me from the get-go. But it's a testament to just how renowned the CS program is there, and unlike professions such as pharmacy where the curriculum is largely uniform and your license does nothing to differentiate you from anyone else who passed their board exam, where you go to school actually matters. I've heard that getting a CS degree from UIUC at least saves your resume from automatically getting filtered out into the reject pile, and every one of my sister's friends from UIUC who got their CS degree managed to find employment upon graduation. Lots of tech recruiters visit for career fairs and practically seek you out. Microsoft hires more undergrads from there than any other institution.

That being said, of course I'm aware that you have to be damn good at what you do, and that the learning never ends. I do love technology and all and I geek out about this stuff a lot more than my friends. But I still can't tell whether I have a deep-seated passion to the point where I'm willing to immerse myself in it 24/7. The fact that I'm even hesitant about this decision suggests that the answer is no.

That is a tough choice to make. Jumping ship now would be easy to do and save you money in the long run. I'm suspect though that CS will not be the ideal panacea that you are imagining it is, and there will be aspects of the job you dread just as much as pharmacy. Another option (an expensive one), get your pharmacy degree, and if you really hate pharmacy, then go and get a CS degree. Having a pharmacy/CS degree would help you get a niche job of designing pharmacy computer systems.....although this route will definitely limit where you can work. It sounds like you have excellent grades, are you at a school where you could possibly get a dual major in pharmacy & CS....I think that would be the good compromise route. Also, would parental support be cut off if you changed majors? That is also something to consider.

I've honestly thought about doing that. Something like pharmaceutical IT. Or...well anything that gives me a desk job and has as little interaction with the general public as possible. It was acknowledged very very briefly as a bullet point during my freshman orientation regarding the possible careers with a PharmD. Unfortunately, they didn't elaborate any further and it seems nobody has any information on it. Not any of my friends, professors, or counselors. And I can't seem to find much about it on the Internet either. Getting the CS degree afterwards seems a little excessive though, as from what I've gathered, merely having programming skills could get you into that niche, even if you just picked it up as a hobby.

I am fortunate enough to have parents who are both capable and willing of supporting me regardless of my major. They felt guilty after seeing how underwhelmed I was during my first year and after I presented the truths about the job market, which is why they are now allowing me to transfer. The decision is entirely mine. My mother is actually in favor of me transferring after seeing my cousin having to stick it out in the boonies working retail for several years, unable to find employment even in our rather humble metropolitan area, if you can call it that. Working out in the middle of nowhere even drove one of his coworkers nearly insane, to the point where he quit his job and came back to live with his parents. However, I have the feeling my father would really prefer that I stick with pharmacy, as he's still optimistic about it and constantly pulling up all these articles for me to read about research and clinical positions. The question is how easy are those jobs to come by?

And unfortunately, a dual major isn't possible at my tiny college. We're a direct six-year PharmD. program (though they've just expanded it to a seven-year program for the incoming first-years...might actually work out better for them because at least they'll get a bachelor's degree halfway through and can choose to do something else if they wish).

Man, I probably should have just gone to a university to pursue pharmacy. Would have kept my options open. But at the time, my reasoning was that if I was truly stuck with this, I might as well graduate as soon as possible.

 

[Momus]

What's worse than having no job? Having one you hate (felt stuck) for the rest of your life. You spend ~50% of your life in your job.

I'd kill to be in your position all over again.

 

[PharmtoCS]

Seems you're also a gamer(?) and Zelda fan. High five!

That being said, of course I'm aware that you have to be damn good at what you do, and that the learning never ends. I do love technology and all and I geek out about this stuff a lot more than my friends. But I still can't tell whether I have a deep-seated passion to the point where I'm willing to immerse myself in it 24/7. The fact that I'm even hesitant about this decision suggests that the answer is no.



I've honestly thought about doing that. Something like pharmaceutical IT. Or...well anything that gives me a desk job and has as little interaction with the general public as possible. It was acknowledged very very briefly as a bullet point during my freshman orientation regarding the possible careers with a PharmD. Unfortunately, they didn't elaborate any further and it seems nobody has any information on it. Not any of my friends, professors, or counselors. And I can't seem to find much about it on the Internet either. Getting the CS degree afterwards seems a little excessive though, as from what I've gathered, merely having programming skills could get you into that niche, even if you just picked it up as a hobby.

I am fortunate enough to have parents who are both capable and willing of supporting me regardless of my major. They felt guilty after seeing how underwhelmed I was during my first year and after I presented the truths about the job market, which is why they are now allowing me to transfer. The decision is entirely mine. My mother is actually in favor of me transferring after seeing my cousin having to stick it out in the boonies working retail for several years, unable to find employment even in our rather humble metropolitan area, if you can call it that. Working out in the middle of nowhere even drove one of his coworkers nearly insane, to the point where he quit his job and came back to live with his parents. However, I have the feeling my father would really prefer that I stick with pharmacy, as he's still optimistic about it and constantly pulling up all these articles for me to read about research and clinical positions. The question is how easy are those jobs to come by?

And unfortunately, a dual major isn't possible at my tiny college. We're a direct six-year PharmD. program (though they've just expanded it to a seven-

I think you already answered your own question about whether to switch. The coveted clinical, research, IT, etc. positions consist of fewer than 5% of all pharmacist jobs, with the majority of them being in retail.

1) Retail pharmacy is not your passion
2) You seem passionate about technology
3) You prefer a desk job with minimal interaction with the public
4) You don't sound like you're willing to move to the middle of nowhere

I've already reapplied and made the preparations necessary to transfer to UIUC's CS program. But something's holding me back. It's the small glimmer of hope that maybe I won't have to work retail in some hick town

There's the almost guaranteed hope of not having to do that as a CS major.

 

[kendrick lamar]

I was in a very similar position to you tho I wasn't considering programming. I wasn't completely sure what I wanted to do in school but wanted to take time in college to figure it out. However, I got into the pharmacy program, and while I wasn't sure if it was for me (even tho I like health and life sciences) my parents were really keen on it. They're not the pressuring type, but they've supported me and I could tell how excited they were and it made me feel guilty. That was in 2008 and it seemed like the saturation really reached peak in 2010, so I didn't receive as sound of advice as you are receiving now. Almost everybody I met convinced me to go into pharmacy and that it was even better than medical school (which I was also considering at the time). even retail seemed like a ok job to me (always heard it was pretty "stress free", lucrative, stable and everything else you can imagine). Even my counselor discouraged me from taking extra classes because "I'd be making a ton of money when I graduate anyway". I wish I could go back in time and do undergrad again. I wish I would have at least gotten a double major or minor. If you are still not sure, maybe you can jut double major. I've heard technology is a really good combination with any field, and there could be a lot of potential in health care (informatics, health IT, lots of health start ups too).

I sent you a DM too, but the thing is, if your parents immigrated to the US like mine, the climate is really different now. 23 years ago when my family came here, the pharmacists in the family came here and did really well. An uncle of mine opened his own independent pharmacy and made a lot of money. Even 10-15 years ago, one of my dad's cousins graduated from St. John's and did really well. My family kept seeing others as an example and really were keen on me becoming a pharmacist too. Whereas I was more interested in going to med school, they saw pharmacy as a better, less stress option. I've talked to the same family members only a few months ago and they're saying it's taxing to be in retail these days. Previously, theyve been practicing for 10+ years and seemed to be liking it in 2008 when I last talked to them. My parents now know how hard and tough it is after I've graduated and told them and after speaking to other family members who're saying it's gotten much worse. But I am still not sure if they're fully convinced it's "that bad". I'm so miserable with my academic choices and constantly wondering what to do next. I'm graduating two years later than a lot of my friends who chose what I thought were less lucrative majors but they mostly seem to be employed somewhere and happier than
I am. I liked what anon said, I don't know how it would have ended up had I picked another field instead of pharmacy school because I didn't chose that route, but having it hard in a field you don't enjoy vs. Having it hard in a field you enjoy, I think the latter will give you some moment of clarity instead of a fog that I am in right now. I am looking into a lot of jobs, including many where I can use my health knowledge in something not necessarily related to pharmacy or Drugs . But it hasn't been an easy search and my parents aren't very happy to see me so miserable. I advise you to really explain to your parents how times have changed. We live in very different circumstances now than when my parents first came to Erica

 

[rxwaiting]

I'm currently enrolled in a direct six-year PharmD program and am about to enter my second year. Had I been given the luxury of choosing my major, I would have gone the computer science route and hopefully ended up working as a software developer

So what are your thoughts? Do you think "not wanting to work retail" is a strong enough conviction alone to drag myself all the way through pharmacy school and residency? Do you believe all the doom-and-gloom stories that plague SDN and Indeed.com, or do you believe the job market will improve for pharmacists within the next five years? I'm torn between two majors and I really don't know what to do.

You got to get out now. If you dont like rx you should not stay, it will be horrid. Job market is fine, future not sure. IT is also not sure, Id assume any IT job is easy to send to china but what do i know.

Also I don't understand the love for California so much. I heard everything is so expensive there.