Top 30 Undergrad vs. State School: My Firsthand Experience

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Yes, some top schools (e.g., Harvard) might be "grade-inflated" but I can assure you getting an A there is not a cakewalk. Most science classes are curved to B+ and you need to score 1 SD above to get a solid A. Scoring 1 SD above your peer group is not easy (unless you really are super smart)....

It's a cakewalk compared to getting an A in a class curved to B- against an equally gifted peer group like at Princeton. The argument has never been that inflation = automatically easy, just that it's messed up for some schools to be unfairly boosting their student stats while other schools stay honest. For a B to be below the mean really should be unthinkable for prereq cores.

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It's a cakewalk compared to getting an A in a class curved to B- against an equally gifted peer group like at Princeton. The argument has never been that inflation = automatically easy, just that it's messed up for some schools to be unfairly boosting their student stats while other schools stay honest. For a B to be below the mean really should be unthinkable for prereq cores.

Totally agree. Science classes are curved to a B- at Duke too.
 
OP here.

We just got our second chemistry exam back, and I got a 110/100. Professor decided to add 10 points because one question asked for the definition of an ACID and an overwhelming majority of the class got it wrong (he was just looking for "proton donor" ) and another question had algebra that was "too hard" (literally a basic application of q= m×c×delta T ) .

These kids can't even do sixth grade algebra , and they're going to be my doctors! Good job, America :thumbup:
 
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OP here.

We just got our second chemistry exam back, and I got a 110/100. Professor decided to add 10 points because one question asked for the definition of an ACID and an overwhelming majority of the class got it wrong (he was just looking for "proton donor" ) and another question had algebra that was "too hard" (literally a basic application of q= m×c×delta T ) .

These kids can't even do sixth grade algebra , and they're going to be my doctors! Good job, America :thumbup:

Man you're so cool, I hope to elevate to your status one day.
 
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OP here.

We just got our second chemistry exam back, and I got a 110/100. Professor decided to add 10 points because one question asked for the definition of an ACID and an overwhelming majority of the class got it wrong (he was just looking for "proton donor" ) and another question had algebra that was "too hard" (literally a basic application of q= m×c×delta T ) .

These kids can't even do sixth grade algebra , and they're going to be my doctors! Good job, America :thumbup:

OP what exactly is your concern? Do you feel that legions of idiots are successfully becoming doctors while swaths of smart students at harder, top schools are being turned away purely because of their grades? Do you think that the GPA is the only criteria for students to distinguish themselves? Do you think that concepts like q = (m)(c)(dT) are not sufficiently tested on the MCAT such that students' weaknesses in basic algebra or acid/base chemistry will be exposed? I'm not sure what your concern is, and honestly it just sounds like you're trying to show how much smarter you are than your "low grade" peers. Rest assured, if you get into medical school, you'll all take the same tests and have to pass the same board exams and shelfs and match against each other.
 
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OP here.

We just got our second chemistry exam back, and I got a 110/100. Professor decided to add 10 points because one question asked for the definition of an ACID and an overwhelming majority of the class got it wrong (he was just looking for "proton donor" ) and another question had algebra that was "too hard" (literally a basic application of q= m×c×delta T ) .

These kids can't even do sixth grade algebra , and they're going to be my doctors! Good job, America :thumbup:

obama-responsible-for-miley-cyrus.jpg
 
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I haven't read the entire thread, but enough of it that I feel I need to comment.

I attended a state school. I had over 2200 SAT and a 34 ACT. I was also accepted to Stanford and Cornell. I chose to attend a state school (not my state school) for personal reasons unrelated to cost, although they gave me quite a nice scholarship for being national merit. I managed to graduate as a ChemE major with a 4.00 GPA. I also ended up scoring a 33 on my MCAT. While I agree that there were more students who were lower on the academic scale and that the average was probably lower as well, there were still very bright students.

In the end, schools are what you make of it. There are some very smart people at all schools, and some not so smart people at most schools. There are ivy league schools that are known for grade inflation just as there are state schools that also partake in this grading style. Furthermore there are ivy schools known for grade deflation. You can't make a general statement about a given student's intelligence based on where they received their undergraduate education. Some people like to make general statements, but I hate generalizations and believe there is rarely a place or time for them. I think the advantage of ivy's are the connections and the opportunities available. However, it's possible for anyone who's put in the time to find their own opportunities. As for name and connections, these are not nearly as important for medical school as they are for business or law school.

In summary, I will conclude by saying that smart kids will do great things regardless. Generalizations are bullsh*t. And don't hate on others to make yourself feel better, just be as great as you can be.

If you want to attend an ivy go for it, that's awesome. If you don't attend one, that really doesn't matter too much. The MCAT is the great equalizer.
 
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Sounds like the OP just didn't cut it and is now externalizing it in a very bitter manner.
 
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OP here.

We just got our second chemistry exam back, and I got a 110/100. Professor decided to add 10 points because one question asked for the definition of an ACID and an overwhelming majority of the class got it wrong (he was just looking for "proton donor" ) and another question had algebra that was "too hard" (literally a basic application of q= m×c×delta T ) .

These kids can't even do sixth grade algebra , and they're going to be my doctors! Good job, America :thumbup:

You should be more concerned about your interviews than your GPA.
 
I haven't read the entire thread, but enough of it that I feel I need to comment.

I attended a state school. I had over 2200 SAT and a 34 ACT. I was also accepted to Stanford and Cornell. I chose to attend a state school (not my state school) for personal reasons unrelated to cost, although they gave me quite a nice scholarship for being national merit. I managed to graduate as a ChemE major with a 4.00 GPA. I also ended up scoring a 33 on my MCAT. While I agree that there were more students who were lower on the academic scale and that the average was probably lower as well, there were still very bright students.

In the end, schools are what you make of it. There are some very smart people at all schools, and some not so smart people at most schools. There are ivy league schools that are known for grade inflation just as there are state schools that also partake in this grading style. Furthermore there are ivy schools known for grade deflation. You can't make a general statement about a given student's intelligence based on where they received their undergraduate education. Some people like to make general statements, but I hate generalizations and believe there is rarely a place or time for them. I think the advantage of ivy's are the connections and the opportunities available. However, it's possible for anyone who's put in the time to find their own opportunities. As for name and connections, these are not nearly as important for medical school as they are for business or law school.

In summary, I will conclude by saying that smart kids will do great things regardless. Generalizations are bullsh*t. And don't hate on others to make yourself feel better, just be as great as you can be.

If you want to attend an ivy go for it, that's awesome. If you don't attend one, that really doesn't matter too much. The MCAT is the great equalizer.

I'm not saying that all state school students are dumb or that they are only there because they couldn't get into better schools. Obviously there are people like you, who could have gone to an Ivy League school but chose not to. I agree that generalizations usually don't suffice to explain things like this, but you must understand that "A 4.0 is a 4.0" is just as much of a sweeping generalization as "Top 30 students are smarter than State School students". The fact of the matter is that there are shades of gray. My overall point is that it is definitely harder to succeed at some schools versus others, and that this variability is positively correlated with ranking. I'm not saying anything about the magnitude of the correlation. I'm only saying that it is positive. If you were to plot difficulty of achieving a 4.0 (aka rigor) as a function of school ranking, you would certainly see that it becomes more rigorous on average as you approach the top schools. Sure, there are top schools that inflate, but not enough of them to undo this trend.

Furthermore, this thread was just my anecdotal experience (n=1) that suggests this correlation is true. I'm just saying that when I went to a school with a top 20 avg. SAT score, I would work my butt off and give it everything I had and still end up with B's. At the state school I am now attending, however, I barely study at all, and I have a 100+ % exam average in each of my classes. Take that for what you will. I know what I believe, and I'm sticking to my guns.
 
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I haven't read the entire thread, but enough of it that I feel I need to comment.

I attended a state school. I had over 2200 SAT and a 34 ACT. I was also accepted to Stanford and Cornell. I chose to attend a state school (not my state school) for personal reasons unrelated to cost, although they gave me quite a nice scholarship for being national merit. I managed to graduate as a ChemE major with a 4.00 GPA. I also ended up scoring a 33 on my MCAT. While I agree that there were more students who were lower on the academic scale and that the average was probably lower as well, there were still very bright students.

In the end, schools are what you make of it. There are some very smart people at all schools, and some not so smart people at most schools. There are ivy league schools that are known for grade inflation just as there are state schools that also partake in this grading style. Furthermore there are ivy schools known for grade deflation. You can't make a general statement about a given student's intelligence based on where they received their undergraduate education. Some people like to make general statements, but I hate generalizations and believe there is rarely a place or time for them. I think the advantage of ivy's are the connections and the opportunities available. However, it's possible for anyone who's put in the time to find their own opportunities. As for name and connections, these are not nearly as important for medical school as they are for business or law school.

In summary, I will conclude by saying that smart kids will do great things regardless. Generalizations are bullsh*t. And don't hate on others to make yourself feel better, just be as great as you can be.

If you want to attend an ivy go for it, that's awesome. If you don't attend one, that really doesn't matter too much. The MCAT is the great equalizer.
I think we can all agree that the bigger question here is, why did you bother with the ACT?
 
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I'm not saying that all state school students are dumb or that they are only there because they couldn't get into better schools. Obviously there are people like you, who could have gone to an Ivy League school but chose not to. I agree that generalizations usually don't suffice to explain things like this, but you must understand that "A 4.0 is a 4.0" is just as much of a sweeping generalization as "Top 30 students are smarter than State School students". The fact of the matter is that there are shades of gray. My overall point is that it is definitely harder to succeed at some schools versus others, and that this variability is positively correlated with ranking. I'm not saying anything about the magnitude of the correlation. I'm only saying that it is positive. If you were to plot difficulty of achieving a 4.0 (aka rigor) as a function of school ranking, you would certainly see that it becomes more rigorous on average as you approach the top schools. Sure, there are top schools that inflate, but not enough of them to undo this trend.

Furthermore, this thread was just my anecdotal experience (n=1) that suggests this correlation is true. I'm just saying that when I went to a school with a top 20 avg. SAT score, I would work my butt off and give it everything I had and still end up with B's. At the state school I am now attending, however, I barely study at all, and I have a 100+ % exam average in each of my classes. Take that for what you will. I know what I believe, and I'm sticking to my guns.

I appreciate your experience, and I guess we agree on basic points. I absolutely agree that certain schools are more difficult than others. I absolutely don't believe that my engineering 4.00 is equivalent to an MIT engineering 4.00. However, I guess my gripe is this: while you can realistically say that certain schools are more difficult than others, i absolutely don't believe you can make it as clear cut as 'Ivy's vs. State schools' or 'Top 10/20/30/40 vs. State Schools'. Because it's not like the schools for each category above have identical curriculum, grading policies, etc.

I appreciate you went to a challenging undergraduate school and it sounds like the state school you're attending is not too challenging. However, as someone previously mentioned, Harvard has a median grade of A-. While I admit this could be for a variety of reasons (very bright average students, lots of student resources, etc.), in general it seems like it would be easier for people to do well there, yet Harvard would be thrown into the more challenging schools bracket.

In summary, I agree that some schools are more challenging than others. I don't believe you can break it down into state schools vs. elite schools though. Some state schools are quite challenging while some top schools aren't quite as difficult. If there were a way to separate schools based on level of difficulty than we could agree on this and it seems like your first undergraduate institution would fall into the harder category and your latter institution would fall into the easier category. However, this isn't practical and so I don't think you can realistically separate schools based on degree of difficulty. I believe my state school was quite challenging (at least in my program), and it isn't one of the big ones listed (UNC Chapel Hill, UVA, Michigan, etc.)
 
Sounds like the OP just didn't cut it and is now externalizing it in a very bitter manner.
Nooo... OP had a low GPA and now he's breezing through at another university.
 
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OP may also not be taking account of changes in his own maturity towards his coursework that may have occurred between then and now. There are many reasons why GPA changes over time.
 
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I appreciate your experience, and I guess we agree on basic points. I absolutely agree that certain schools are more difficult than others. I absolutely don't believe that my engineering 4.00 is equivalent to an MIT engineering 4.00. However, I guess my gripe is this: while you can realistically say that certain schools are more difficult than others, i absolutely don't believe you can make it as clear cut as 'Ivy's vs. State schools' or 'Top 10/20/30/40 vs. State Schools'. Because it's not like the schools for each category above have identical curriculum, grading policies, etc.

I appreciate you went to a challenging undergraduate school and it sounds like the state school you're attending is not too challenging. However, as someone previously mentioned, Harvard has a median grade of A-. While I admit this could be for a variety of reasons (very bright average students, lots of student resources, etc.), in general it seems like it would be easier for people to do well there, yet Harvard would be thrown into the more challenging schools bracket.

In summary, I agree that some schools are more challenging than others. I don't believe you can break it down into state schools vs. elite schools though. Some state schools are quite challenging while some top schools aren't quite as difficult. If there were a way to separate schools based on level of difficulty than we could agree on this and it seems like your first undergraduate institution would fall into the harder category and your latter institution would fall into the easier category. However, this isn't practical and so I don't think you can realistically separate schools based on degree of difficulty. I believe my state school was quite challenging (at least in my program), and it isn't one of the big ones listed (UNC Chapel Hill, UVA, Michigan, etc.)

I agree that the tiers are (somewhat) arbitrarily defined but they do exist in reality and I think you should only make comparisons among schools within roughly the same tier (for example, I would agree that Harvard GPAs should be considered inflated in comparison to Princeton GPAs. However, I would not really agree that Harvard GPAs are inflated compared to [insert top 500 school here that is "grade deflationary"])

Dividing schools strictly into those that have grade inflation or grade deflation is highly flawed because grades at most schools are assigned relative to others in your peer group. An "average" Harvard student (who struggles to be better than his peers at Harvard) may do very well at a lower-tier school - even if that school is "grade deflationary" since he may perform comparatively well to his peers there.

Another thing is that the "style" of questions on exams may very well be different. For example, math/science exams at Harvard/Princeton may have some extra tricky/tough questions to really differentiate the best from the very good (among a group of peers who are likely somewhat intelligent already).
 
The people at Harvard and Princeton are likely somewhat intelligent? seriously people, I agree OP is a bit of a prick, but on the flip side I think a lot of people need a reality check regarding just how freaking brilliant the people are that compete for top grades at the best schools
 
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The people at Harvard and Princeton are likely somewhat intelligent? seriously people, I agree OP is a bit of a prick, but on the flip side I think a lot of people need a reality check regarding just how freaking brilliant the people are that compete for top grades at the best schools

cough *litotes* cough
 
The people at Harvard and Princeton are likely somewhat intelligent? seriously people, I agree OP is a bit of a prick, but on the flip side I think a lot of people need a reality check regarding just how freaking brilliant the people are that compete for top grades at the best schools
MCAT scores of said people or don't care.
 
Some people are brilliant at top programs, others just worked very hard in high school. One of my friends that attends Princeton wasn't a genius in high school, but he worked very hard and had private tutoring every day after school. I know many people--not in top 15 programs--who grasp concepts faster and more thoroughly than he is capable of. The only non-anecdotal data on here said that GPAs, on average, are lower at public schools than at private ones. If state schools were overwhelmingly grade-inflating, we'd expect to see the GPAs as high or higher than at private institutions.

The OP is ridiculous. First he says that the classes he's taking at the state school "represent 100% brand-new material," then he talks about how everyone in his class is an idiot because they missed a simple question--"what is an acid." He has no credibility and is heavily biased.

There is no linear model which links US news ranking with difficulty of class. The people on here arguing that their university is harder than state schools are ridiculous. I would like to ignore them, but feel a duty to stop the propagation of this myth that a 3.2 at a "top 15" should equal a 3.6 at a state school.


The people at Harvard and Princeton are likely somewhat intelligent? seriously people, I agree OP is a bit of a prick, but on the flip side I think a lot of people need a reality check regarding just how freaking brilliant the people are that compete for top grades at the best schools
 
MCAT scores of said people or don't care.
That was discussed earlier the the thread, i can tell you at least that at my school mcat prep course the avg diagnostic score is 28 and mean improvement to real score is +6. N=several hundred, representative sample of only students from my school from range of majors and GPAs. Source: conversation with the doc who runs said course.
 
I think the OP should share the name of this school he attends that gives out As for students who can define an acid.
 
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Some people are brilliant at top programs, others just worked very hard in high school. One of my friends that attends Princeton wasn't a genius in high school, but he worked very hard and had private tutoring every day after school. I know many people--not in top 15 programs--who grasp concepts faster and more thoroughly than he is capable of. The only non-anecdotal data on here said that GPAs, on average, are lower at public schools than at private ones. If state schools were overwhelmingly grade-inflating, we'd expect to see the GPAs as high or higher than at private institutions.

The OP is ridiculous. First he says that the classes he's taking at the state school "represent 100% brand-new material," then he talks about how everyone in his class is an idiot because they missed a simple question--"what is an acid." He has no credibility and is heavily biased.

There is no linear model which links US news ranking with difficulty of class. The people on here arguing that their university is harder than state schools are ridiculous. I would like to ignore them, but feel a duty to stop the propagation of this myth that a 3.2 at a "top 15" should equal a 3.6 at a state school.

I counter your n=1 with the experiences of approx 10 of my classmates who decided to take organic elsewhere at various state schools near their homes because they struggled for B+ grades in Chen and bio, and ended up making A to A+ in what they all described as one of the easiest science classes they had. arguing that single people at top schools are not brilliant doesn't prove anything
 
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I agree that the tiers are (somewhat) arbitrarily defined but they do exist in reality and I think you should only make comparisons among schools within roughly the same tier (for example, I would agree that Harvard GPAs should be considered inflated in comparison to Princeton GPAs. However, I would not really agree that Harvard GPAs are inflated compared to [insert top 500 school here that is "grade deflationary"])

Dividing schools strictly into those that have grade inflation or grade deflation is highly flawed because grades at most schools are assigned relative to others in your peer group. An "average" Harvard student (who struggles to be better than his peers at Harvard) may do very well at a lower-tier school - even if that school is "grade deflationary" since he may perform comparatively well to his peers there.

Another thing is that the "style" of questions on exams may very well be different. For example, math/science exams at Harvard/Princeton may have some extra tricky/tough questions to really differentiate the best from the very good (among a group of peers who are likely somewhat intelligent already).

You make a great point that I wish to elaborate upon. (Disclaimer: I'm greatly aware that I'm serving to pointlessly prolong this thread, but felt extra compelled to further this point.) As I have mentioned/posted before, there are many intangibles that come into play when assessing rigor. The designs of the exams themselves seem to get little attention, but they are equally if not more important. Some top schools design their exams (especially for prereqs so as to weed out) to contain fewer questions, essentially ascribing more weight to each individual question. As these questions tend to be quite difficult, it is probable that even a high-achieving, intelligent student will miss at least 1 question. Without divulging too much information, I can report that, in one of the more notorious instances of such occurrence at my alma mater, orgo exams consisted of three long/hard questions, the answers of which built upon each other. Missing one question automatically relegated one to a C. With so many bright students in the class that would likely blow out of the water any exam where more opportunities (in this case, more questions) were given, this was the only way to generate bell curve.

Oftentimes, students who went to lesser ranked institutions retort to OP's points with statements that they, too, have been challenged in their science classes. They may indeed have in terms of getting the right preparation to master the concepts. They likely have had an exam that, in addition to two impossible questions, featured easier/moderate difficulty questions to throw students a bone. In these instances, students have been rewarded for the hard work and time they dedicated. At top schools, this isn't often the case. Unless you've got your sh*** down cold/ are impeccably prepared, you may have studied quite thoroughly but, due to the very design of the exam (i.e. the exam does not play to your strengths), you may end up with a B or worse. Further, this extends to grading policies. At my alma mater, there was no HW grade in most of the prereqs. If there was, it would amount to some 5% of the final grade, which is negligible. You did your homework for your own sake, but you were not getting any credit for the effort you put in. Once again, there may have been similar material in difficulty, yet the grading scheme has screwed you. The C+/B- curving has already been discussed, and that's another factor. My final point is that top schools employ a multitude of both subtle and not-so-subtle techniques to achieve a curve among extremely bright students, so it's truly a pity that such alarming variability in how grades are earned is not accounted for sufficiently, essentially causing otherwise capable students to have to spend time and money in a PB in order to prove their worth.

In summation, the grading style and exam design differences I described above seem to explain many observations. That:

1. There is a dichotomy of students at top schools in terms of GPAs. Those with magna cum laude or above, and those with <=3.2 GPAs. The ones in between are few and far between. The <=3.2 GPAs are capable folks, yet they now need to prove themselves in a PB program. I repeat my response : "I don't think that a 3.2 from a top school necessarily makes an adcom judge you as incapable of handling med school, but when compared with a 3.7 from a state school (ceteris paribus, especially with respect to MCAT), the adcom faces the dilemma of giving the 3.2 applicant the benefit of the doubt based on considerably intangible and not readily quantifiable criteria (selection of classes, difficulty of certain professors, etc.). The sad truth for OP and for many in OP's predicament is that med school admissions is simply not about giving one a leg up; they'd rather you spend an extra year or two solidifying and showcasing your credentials in a PB program than offer you the seat of someone with substantially higher GPA, even though the latter may or may not be as capable as you. While OP is entitled (see what I did there?) to being frustrated at such unfairness, all is not lost since they will probably crush PB and go on to get an MD degree nevertheless. In the end, these extra 1.5 years won't be a huge setback. Best of luck, OP."

2. Given the harsh grading policies at top undergrads, the exceptionally gifted peer group, and the stringent curving, top med schools know that someone who succeeded in the above environment is truly worthy of leading the medical profession. It is no wonder that the top 25 schools are almost entirely filled with students who went to top undergrads.

This is what I've gathered over the years from my own observations and discussions with friends who have attended institutions at both ends of the spectra. Of course, for everything I said there are exceptions, and my theory necessarily makes assumptions, but this is how I interpret (and justify) OP's outrage with the system and his/her subsequent diatribe.
 
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That was discussed earlier the the thread, i can tell you at least that at my school mcat prep course the avg diagnostic score is 28 and mean improvement to real score is +6. N=several hundred, representative sample of only students from my school from range of majors and GPAs. Source: conversation with the doc who runs said course.
That's great. The average student in your school is likely smarter than the average student at a state school. But the average student at state schools aren't necessarily getting As. State schools don't necessarily just hand out As. And some of the students at "top 15 programs" would do poorly in a state school just as they do poorly at Top 15 University. I can't speak for every school out there--maybe there are programs where everyone gets an A for possessing the most rudimentary understanding of a concept--but no one on this thread can make this generalization and maintain any sense of credibility in my eyes.
 
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I counter your n=1 with the experiences of approx 10 of my classmates who decided to take organic elsewhere at various state schools near their homes because they struggled for B+ grades in Chen and bio, and ended up making A to A+ in what they all described as one of the easiest science classes they had. arguing that single people at top schools are not brilliant doesn't prove anything
The majority of state school's that I'm familiar with don't even give out "A+." It 's possible that they happened to get an easy professor at that school. They could have done better because they were taking less classes or because they have a gift for organic. They could also be overcompensating... There are easy classes out there (at state schools and top 15). This is exactly why more emphasis should be placed on the MCAT (specifically the biological sciences section). It's standardized, and the biological sciences section is a good indicator for board scores and performance in medical school.
 
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It should also be noted that most students at state schools aren't looking to go on and continue post-undergraduate studies, be it medical school/law school/masters/phd. From my experience, most ivy/top schools' students do pursue continued education. A more apt comparison would be between students applying for medical schools from different programs rather than comparing school averages. In the OP's example, he/she may have been getting 100% on exams that many struggled with. However, these basic science classes are laced with very average students and people who aren't looking to do anymore than pass classes. There could very well be 20 people in the class wanting to attend medical school who also found the exam very easy.
That's great. The average student in your school is likely smarter than the average student at a state school. But the average student at state schools aren't necessarily getting As. State schools don't necessarily just hand out As. And some of the students at "top 15 programs" would do poorly in a state school just as they do poorly at Top 15 University. I can't speak for every school out there--maybe there are programs where everyone gets an A for possessing the most rudimentary understanding of a concept--but no one on this thread can make this generalization and maintain any sense of credibility in my eyes.

The majority of state school's that I'm familiar with don't even give out "A+." It 's possible that they happened to get an easy professor at that school. They could have done better because they were taking less classes or because they have a gift for organic. They could also be overcompensating... There are easy classes out there (at state schools and top 15). This is exactly why more emphasis should be placed on the MCAT (specifically the biological sciences section). It's standardized, and the biological sciences section is a good indicator for board scores and performance in medical school.
 
You make a great point that I wish to elaborate upon. (Disclaimer: I'm greatly aware that I'm serving to pointlessly prolong this thread, but felt extra compelled to further this point.) As I have mentioned/posted before, there are many intangibles that come into play when assessing rigor. The designs of the exams themselves seem to get little attention, but they are equally if not more important. Some top schools design their exams (especially for prereqs so as to weed out) to contain fewer questions, essentially ascribing more weight to each individual question. As these questions tend to be quite difficult, it is probable that even a high-achieving, intelligent student will miss at least 1 question. Without divulging too much information, I can report that, in one of the more notorious instances of such occurrence at my alma mater, orgo exams consisted of three long/hard questions, the answers of which built upon each other. Missing one question automatically relegated one to a C. With so many bright students in the class that would likely blow out of the water any exam where more opportunities (in this case, more questions) were given, this was the only way to generate bell curve.

Oftentimes, students who went to lesser ranked institutions retort to OP's points with statements that they, too, have been challenged in their science classes. They may indeed have in terms of getting the right preparation to master the concepts. They likely have had an exam that, in addition to two impossible questions, featured easier/moderate difficulty questions to throw students a bone. In these instances, students have been rewarded for the hard work and time they dedicated. At top schools, this isn't often the case. Unless you've got your sh*** down cold/ are impeccably prepared, you may have studied quite thoroughly but, due to the very design of the exam (i.e. the exam does not play to your strengths), you may end up with a B or worse. Further, this extends to grading policies. At my alma mater, there was no HW grade in most of the prereqs. If there was, it would amount to some 5% of the final grade, which is negligible. You did your homework for your own sake, but you were not getting any credit for the effort you put in. Once again, there may have been similar material in difficulty, yet the grading scheme has screwed you. The C+/B- curving has already been discussed, and that's another factor. My final point is that top schools employ a multitude of both subtle and not-so-subtle techniques to achieve a curve among extremely bright students, so it's truly a pity that such alarming variability in how grades are earned is not accounted for sufficiently, essentially causing otherwise capable students to have to spend time and money in a PB in order to prove their worth.

In summation, the grading style and exam design differences I described above seem to explain many observations. That:

1. There is a dichotomy of students at top schools in terms of GPAs. Those with magna cum laude or above, and those with <=3.2 GPAs. The ones in between are few and far between. The <=3.2 GPAs are capable folks, yet they now need to prove themselves in a PB program. I repeat my response : "I don't think that a 3.2 from a top school necessarily makes an adcom judge you as incapable of handling med school, but when compared with a 3.7 from a state school (ceteris paribus, especially with respect to MCAT), the adcom faces the dilemma of giving the 3.2 applicant the benefit of the doubt based on considerably intangible and not readily quantifiable criteria (selection of classes, difficulty of certain professors, etc.). The sad truth for OP and for many in OP's predicament is that med school admissions is simply not about giving one a leg up; they'd rather you spend an extra year or two solidifying and showcasing your credentials in a PB program than offer you the seat of someone with substantially higher GPA, even though the latter may or may not be as capable as you. While OP is entitled (see what I did there?) to being frustrated at such unfairness, all is not lost since they will probably crush PB and go on to get an MD degree nevertheless. In the end, these extra 1.5 years won't be a huge setback. Best of luck, OP."

2. Given the harsh grading policies at top schools, top med schools know that someone who succeeded in the above environment is truly worthy of leading the medical profession. It is no wonder that the top 25 schools are almost entirely filled with students who went to top undergrads.

This is what I've gathered over the years from my own observations and discussions with friends who have attended institutions at both ends of the spectra. Of course, for everything I said there are exceptions, and my theory necessarily makes assumptions, but this is how I interpret (and justify) OP's outrage with the system.


/thread

:claps:
 
You make a great point that I wish to elaborate upon. (Disclaimer: I'm greatly aware that I'm serving to pointlessly prolong this thread, but felt extra compelled to further this point.) As I have mentioned/posted before, there are many intangibles that come into play when assessing rigor. The designs of the exams themselves seem to get little attention, but they are equally if not more important. Some top schools design their exams (especially for prereqs so as to weed out) to contain fewer questions, essentially ascribing more weight to each individual question. As these questions tend to be quite difficult, it is probable that even a high-achieving, intelligent student will miss at least 1 question. Without divulging too much information, I can report that, in one of the more notorious instances of such occurrence at my alma mater, orgo exams consisted of three long/hard questions, the answers of which built upon each other. Missing one question automatically relegated one to a C. With so many bright students in the class that would likely blow out of the water any exam where more opportunities (in this case, more questions) were given, this was the only way to generate bell curve.

Oftentimes, students who went to lesser ranked institutions retort to OP's points with statements that they, too, have been challenged in their science classes. They may indeed have in terms of getting the right preparation to master the concepts. They likely have had an exam that, in addition to two impossible questions, featured easier/moderate difficulty questions to throw students a bone. In these instances, students have been rewarded for the hard work and time they dedicated. At top schools, this isn't often the case. Unless you've got your sh*** down cold/ are impeccably prepared, you may have studied quite thoroughly but, due to the very design of the exam (i.e. the exam does not play to your strengths), you may end up with a B or worse. Further, this extends to grading policies. At my alma mater, there was no HW grade in most of the prereqs. If there was, it would amount to some 5% of the final grade, which is negligible. You did your homework for your own sake, but you were not getting any credit for the effort you put in. Once again, there may have been similar material in difficulty, yet the grading scheme has screwed you. The C+/B- curving has already been discussed, and that's another factor. My final point is that top schools employ a multitude of both subtle and not-so-subtle techniques to achieve a curve among extremely bright students, so it's truly a pity that such alarming variability in how grades are earned is not accounted for sufficiently, essentially causing otherwise capable students to have to spend time and money in a PB in order to prove their worth.

In summation, the grading style and exam design differences I described above seem to explain many observations. That:

1. There is a dichotomy of students at top schools in terms of GPAs. Those with magna cum laude or above, and those with <=3.2 GPAs. The ones in between are few and far between. The <=3.2 GPAs are capable folks, yet they now need to prove themselves in a PB program. I repeat my response : "I don't think that a 3.2 from a top school necessarily makes an adcom judge you as incapable of handling med school, but when compared with a 3.7 from a state school (ceteris paribus, especially with respect to MCAT), the adcom faces the dilemma of giving the 3.2 applicant the benefit of the doubt based on considerably intangible and not readily quantifiable criteria (selection of classes, difficulty of certain professors, etc.). The sad truth for OP and for many in OP's predicament is that med school admissions is simply not about giving one a leg up; they'd rather you spend an extra year or two solidifying and showcasing your credentials in a PB program than offer you the seat of someone with substantially higher GPA, even though the latter may or may not be as capable as you. While OP is entitled (see what I did there?) to being frustrated at such unfairness, all is not lost since they will probably crush PB and go on to get an MD degree nevertheless. In the end, these extra 1.5 years won't be a huge setback. Best of luck, OP."

2. Given the harsh grading policies at top schools, top med schools know that someone who succeeded in the above environment is truly worthy of leading the medical profession. It is no wonder that the top 25 schools are almost entirely filled with students who went to top undergrads.

This is what I've gathered over the years from my own observations and discussions with friends who have attended institutions at both ends of the spectra. Of course, for everything I said there are exceptions, and my theory necessarily makes assumptions, but this is how I interpret (and justify) OP's outrage with the system.

I can second these experiences. In many classes (e.g., Organic, Physics, etc), the tests have "few questions" (like 4 total) but each have subparts (a,b,c,d, etc.) that build upon each other.

On many (most?) occasions, I miss one of the questions (approach it the wrong way), and end up getting 0/25 on that part. On the occasions where I figure out all 4 questions, I score above the curve. If I miss one question, I'm like average. And if I miss two....well you know what happens....

The questions are designed in a way to be somewhat tricky (it's not going to be like straight memorization) so that people will approach it wrong and miss questions ===> generate nice bell curve.


The people at Harvard and Princeton are likely somewhat intelligent? seriously people, I agree OP is a bit of a prick, but on the flip side I think a lot of people need a reality check regarding just how freaking brilliant the people are that compete for top grades at the best schools

I am well aware that many are brilliant. But I didn't want to start another argument about just how smart these people are so I used conservative phrasing.
 
You make a great point that I wish to elaborate upon. (Disclaimer: I'm greatly aware that I'm serving to pointlessly prolong this thread, but felt extra compelled to further this point.) As I have mentioned/posted before, there are many intangibles that come into play when assessing rigor. The designs of the exams themselves seem to get little attention, but they are equally if not more important. Some top schools design their exams (especially for prereqs so as to weed out) to contain fewer questions, essentially ascribing more weight to each individual question. As these questions tend to be quite difficult, it is probable that even a high-achieving, intelligent student will miss at least 1 question. Without divulging too much information, I can report that, in one of the more notorious instances of such occurrence at my alma mater, orgo exams consisted of three long/hard questions, the answers of which built upon each other. Missing one question automatically relegated one to a C. With so many bright students in the class that would likely blow out of the water any exam where more opportunities (in this case, more questions) were given, this was the only way to generate bell curve.

Oftentimes, students who went to lesser ranked institutions retort to OP's points with statements that they, too, have been challenged in their science classes. They may indeed have in terms of getting the right preparation to master the concepts. They likely have had an exam that, in addition to two impossible questions, featured easier/moderate difficulty questions to throw students a bone. In these instances, students have been rewarded for the hard work and time they dedicated. At top schools, this isn't often the case. Unless you've got your sh*** down cold/ are impeccably prepared, you may have studied quite thoroughly but, due to the very design of the exam (i.e. the exam does not play to your strengths), you may end up with a B or worse. Further, this extends to grading policies. At my alma mater, there was no HW grade in most of the prereqs. If there was, it would amount to some 5% of the final grade, which is negligible. You did your homework for your own sake, but you were not getting any credit for the effort you put in. Once again, there may have been similar material in difficulty, yet the grading scheme has screwed you. The C+/B- curving has already been discussed, and that's another factor. My final point is that top schools employ a multitude of both subtle and not-so-subtle techniques to achieve a curve among extremely bright students, so it's truly a pity that such alarming variability in how grades are earned is not accounted for sufficiently, essentially causing otherwise capable students to have to spend time and money in a PB in order to prove their worth.

In summation, the grading style and exam design differences I described above seem to explain many observations. That:

1. There is a dichotomy of students at top schools in terms of GPAs. Those with magna cum laude or above, and those with <=3.2 GPAs. The ones in between are few and far between. The <=3.2 GPAs are capable folks, yet they now need to prove themselves in a PB program. I repeat my response : "I don't think that a 3.2 from a top school necessarily makes an adcom judge you as incapable of handling med school, but when compared with a 3.7 from a state school (ceteris paribus, especially with respect to MCAT), the adcom faces the dilemma of giving the 3.2 applicant the benefit of the doubt based on considerably intangible and not readily quantifiable criteria (selection of classes, difficulty of certain professors, etc.). The sad truth for OP and for many in OP's predicament is that med school admissions is simply not about giving one a leg up; they'd rather you spend an extra year or two solidifying and showcasing your credentials in a PB program than offer you the seat of someone with substantially higher GPA, even though the latter may or may not be as capable as you. While OP is entitled (see what I did there?) to being frustrated at such unfairness, all is not lost since they will probably crush PB and go on to get an MD degree nevertheless. In the end, these extra 1.5 years won't be a huge setback. Best of luck, OP."

2. Given the harsh grading policies at top schools, top med schools know that someone who succeeded in the above environment is truly worthy of leading the medical profession. It is no wonder that the top 25 schools are almost entirely filled with students who went to top undergrads.

This is what I've gathered over the years from my own observations and discussions with friends who have attended institutions at both ends of the spectra. Of course, for everything I said there are exceptions, and my theory necessarily makes assumptions, but this is how I interpret (and justify) OP's outrage with the system.

Your example of test styles at "top" schools are exactly how test are designed at my lowly state school for pre-reqs and upper levels, and other than some music theory and composition classes I can't think of a single class where I got homework points.
 
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Your example of test styles at "top" schools are exactly how test are designed at my lowly state school for pre-reqs and upper levels, and other than some music theory and composition classes I can't think of a single class where I got homework points.

I mean I'm sure there are exceptions but even if the test styles were the same, the peer group still is not.

Homework (even at top schools) sometimes can make up a "significant" (like 40%) of your grade but the reality is that it makes up virtually 0%. Oftentimes, everyone does well on the homework (like 90-95% average) so at the end of the day, the tests are the only thing that differentiate people.

I once had a science class where homework/projects/non-test assignments made up 80% of the grade and the final exam made up 20%. However, everyone did well (like 95% average) on everything (except the final) so how you performed on the final exam determined your final grade. Doing the homework/other assignments does not help your grade but it hurts if you do poorly on it. The final was 4 questions, 45 minutes. Every question wrong is at least half a letter grade or more off your final grade.
 
That's great. The average student in your school is likely smarter than the average student at a state school. But the average student at state schools aren't necessarily getting As. State schools don't necessarily just hand out As. And some of the students at "top 15 programs" would do poorly in a state school just as they do poorly at Top 15 University. I can't speak for every school out there--maybe there are programs where everyone gets an A for possessing the most rudimentary understanding of a concept--but no one on this thread can make this generalization and maintain any sense of credibility in my eyes.
The majority of state school's that I'm familiar with don't even give out "A+." It 's possible that they happened to get an easy professor at that school. They could have done better because they were taking less classes or because they have a gift for organic. They could also be overcompensating... There are easy classes out there (at state schools and top 15). This is exactly why more emphasis should be placed on the MCAT (specifically the biological sciences section). It's standardized, and the biological sciences section is a good indicator for board scores and performance in medical school.

You're right, I take it all back. It's a baseless generalization to say scoring top quarter of a curve against a group of 99th percentilers is any more demanding than against 60th percentilers, and it's not as if most top schools curve to a 3.0, they all give you A- for showing up like Harvard. State schools are just as rigorous - thats why Johns Hopkins and U of Baltimore, or WashU and U Missouri, or UChicago and Southern or Western Illinois University are all equally reputable and have the same number of people scoring highly on the MCAT and going on to top medical schools. While using single anecdotal experiences is a wonderful way to disprove any proposed rigor disparity, similar argument supporting the disparity must be due to getting the easy professor or being unnaturally gifted in organic chemistry. I firmly believe that all the numbers, my own experience, and the experiences of all of my friends can be explained away via something other than students at top schools being on average equally or more studious and more intellectually capable than students at mediocre ones. That would be ridiculous, and would point to a major flaw in our systematic weeding out of 50+% of premeds at top schools who excelled in high school and are at the far right of the national bell curve - it just feels better to say they're no different than the students at UState, and if they had only had a better work ethic they'd be on their way to an MD, rather than earning less-than-competitive grades because despite their previously established work ethic they had to contend against incomparably tougher competition.

But seriously, I have heard so very many stories about BCPM prereqs being easier elsewhere and so very none stories of people finding UState harder than MIT (just like the numbers would predict), it's pretty clear that there is a rigor disparity. I'll just have to go to my grave being very wrong and thinking top schools pose a greater challenge...but possibly not until after spending many years on an adcom.
 
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You're right, I take it all back. It's a baseless generalization to say scoring top quarter of a curve against a group of 99th percentilers is any more demanding than against 60th percentilers, and it's not as if most top schools curve to a 3.0, they all give you A- for showing up like Harvard. State schools are just as rigorous - thats why Johns Hopkins and U of Baltimore, or WashU and U Missouri, or UChicago and Southern or Western Illinois University are all equally reputable and have the same number of people scoring highly on the MCAT and going on to top medical schools. While using single anecdotal experiences is a wonderful way to disprove any proposed rigor disparity, similar argument supporting the disparity must be due to getting the easy professor or being unnaturally gifted in organic chemistry. I firmly believe that all the numbers, my own experience, and the experiences of all of my friends can be explained away via something other than students at top schools being on average equally or more studious and more intellectually capable than students at mediocre ones. That would be ridiculous, and would point to a major flaw in our systematic weeding out of 50+% of premeds at top schools who excelled in high school and are at the far right of the national bell curve - it just feels better to say they're no different than the students at UState, and if they had only had a better work ethic they'd be on their way to an MD, rather than earning less-than-competitive grades because despite their previously established work ethic they had to contend against incomparably tougher competition.

But seriously, I have heard so very many stories about BCPM prereqs being easier elsewhere and so very none stories of people finding UState harder than MIT (just like the numbers would predict), it's pretty clear that there is a rigor disparity. I'll just have to go to my grave being very wrong and thinking top schools pose a greater challenge...but possibly not until after spending many years on an adcom.

I suppose you agree that MCAT should be weighted more heavily than GPA, correct?

This way, no matter whether you go to Harvard or you go to a top 1000 school, you can actually compare the numbers relatively rigorously in a more meaningful way. Even within Harvard...comparing GPAs among majors (or even within majors! - different professors, different class requirements for different concentrations, etc.) is a highly flawed exercise.

For those who think that you can get an A- at Harvard just by showing up - I doubt that is the case. I don't go to H but I'd assume that to get an A- (in a class curved to A-), you need to be average. Average student who takes Biochemistry at Harvard is likely someone who has survived the weedout process (competing successfully against many intelligent peers already). Even if you came in with high stats (2300+ SAT, 5's on APs, etc.) you might not find it so easy to just be "average". This can be quite demoralizing.
 
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Your example of test styles at "top" schools are exactly how test are designed at my lowly state school for pre-reqs and upper levels, and other than some music theory and composition classes I can't think of a single class where I got homework points.

Sure. The main thrust of my post is that when all these tactics are employed in concert (stringent curving to C+/B-, gifted peer group, tricky test design, difficult testing material that strays away from memorization, harsh grading policies), they achieve a curve and truly differentiate the cream of the crop (people who go on to the top med schools) from the highly prepared rest of the individuals, who are still well-equipped to be in medical school but won't get in because the high-stat-grubbing mentality of admissions dictates that 3.2 is too low a GPA, in spite of the fact that it might actually be respectable by all accounts of reason.
 
I think ideally GPA should be most important, but with some sort of transparency and standardization, such as your GPA being reported together with your percentile rank (for the whole school or for BCPMs or for your major, whatever). Combine this with the already available information about caliber of students at a school and now you have a meaningful number. As it is now, yes MCAT tells you a lot more than GPA unless you are familiar with the university and program the GPA was earned at.

I was exaggerating about showing up = A-. Unlike most people so far in the thread, I think that being average at Harvard takes a lot more than what the typical state uni student is capable of. In that case the real injustice is against students at similar less inflating schools, with people at places like Columbia or Princeton or JHop getting rightfully pissed off to hear that Harvard and Dartmouth and Duke are giving much higher GPAs for equal percentile performance.
 
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They kind of contradict each other though. If he's not cut out, why can he make a 4.0 at a school that 99% of premeds go to?
I didn't mean he isn't cut out for med school, just that he performed poorly and seems to be unnecessarily taking out his frustration on poor innocent state schoolers.

Honestly I wouldn't be putting him down (and would probably actually sympathize with him) if he weren't so pretentious. Take make matters worse I don't see why he thinks he is so smart. Has he even taken the MCAT yet? Is it really only that he went to a top 30 undergrad?
 
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I think ideally GPA should be most important, but with some sort of transparency and standardization, such as your GPA being reported together with your percentile rank (for the whole school or for BCPMs or for your major, whatever). Combine this with the already available information about caliber of students at a school and now you have a meaningful number. As it is now, yes MCAT tells you a lot more than GPA unless you are familiar with the university and program the GPA was earned at.

I was exaggerating about showing up = A-. Unlike most people so far in the thread, I think that being average at Harvard takes a lot more than what the typical state uni student is capable of. In that case the real injustice is against students at similar less inflating schools, with people at places like Columbia or Princeton or JHop getting rightfully pissed off to hear that Harvard and Dartmouth and Duke are giving much higher GPAs for equal percentile performance.

Percentile rank wouldn't really help because, as you note, the caliber of students is different. How can you compare percentile ranks between schools then? Sure you can have some type of weighting factor that takes into account your school "caliber" (maybe by average SAT?) but still...it's far less statistically sound than is a standardized test like the MCAT.

And doing it by major would also be problematic. Let's say you are a slightly below average MIT math major (like below average for a math major at MIT - not in general at MIT). Well your percentile in your major would suck (be like 40th percentile) but chances are that if you can do math at MIT, you are likely intelligent enough to be a medical student.
 
That was discussed earlier the the thread, i can tell you at least that at my school mcat prep course the avg diagnostic score is 28 and mean improvement to real score is +6. N=several hundred, representative sample of only students from my school from range of majors and GPAs. Source: conversation with the doc who runs said course.
So your school offers an MCAT prep course that has shown to be highly effective and is either of no cost or is included in tuition? If it costs extra then we instantly wander into the low SES argument consisting of students who chose state school over top schools (likely not Ivy since those schools have a ton of fin aid) for lower tuition. I don't know if it's been mentioned previously in the thread, but you also have to consider all the other perks of top schools. For instance: high quality LOR's, shadowing and/or clinical volunteering programs roled into the major (WashU), and summer research opportunities in highly reputable programs because of connections. Ivy students get perks in one realm, state students get perks in another (the curve); I'll reiterate my initial sentiments:
No one said life was fair.
 
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So basically, adcoms should place less weight on a standardized test that has been proven to be a good indicator for board scores and--for the biological sciences portion--a good indicator of med school performance? Instead, students at a few universities which you perceive to be more difficult (Columbia, Princeton, JHop, but NOT Harvard, Duke, and Dartmouth) are entitled to some sort of grade bump in the eyes of adcoms because they are of a "higher caliber..."

I think ideally GPA should be most important, but with some sort of transparency and standardization, such as your GPA being reported together with your percentile rank (for the whole school or for BCPMs or for your major, whatever). Combine this with the already available information about caliber of students at a school and now you have a meaningful number. As it is now, yes MCAT tells you a lot more than GPA unless you are familiar with the university and program the GPA was earned at.

I was exaggerating about showing up = A-. Unlike most people so far in the thread, I think that being average at Harvard takes a lot more than what the typical state uni student is capable of. In that case the real injustice is against students at similar less inflating schools, with people at places like Columbia or Princeton or JHop getting rightfully pissed off to hear that Harvard and Dartmouth and Duke are giving much higher GPAs for equal percentile performance.
 
^Irs really subjective but honestly yeah. You can't possibly argue that a 4.0 out of Hopkins (which has never been done before) is the same as a 4.0 out of school x. And no you shouldn't de-emphasize standardized test scores. This subjectivity between schools is the while reason standardized testing exists. It's the most objective measure of ability that totally disregards all the confounders in GPA
 
So basically, adcoms should place less weight on a standardized test that has been proven to be a good indicator for board scores and--for the biological sciences portion--a good indicator of med school performance? Instead, students at a few universities which you perceive to be more difficult (Columbia, Princeton, JHop, but NOT Harvard, Duke, and Dartmouth) are entitled to some sort of grade bump in the eyes of adcoms because they are of a "higher caliber..."

I recently reviewed an applicant at an admissions committee meeting who had a mediocre MCAT (low 30s) but a 4.0 at a notoriously difficult university. Yes, that mattered. In fact, I personally wrote the MCAT off as a fluke; it's a one day exam compared to your GPA which reflects 3-4 years (if not more) of academic work.

It's not as simple as "either/or." It's a calculus, and every case is different.
 
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No one has ever had a 4.0 at Hopkins? Source? This is the problem with this thread; people tend to exaggerate differences in rigor.
^Irs really subjective but honestly yeah. You can't possibly argue that a 4.0 out of Hopkins (which has never been done before) is the same as a 4.0 out of school x. And no you shouldn't de-emphasize standardized test scores. This subjectivity between schools is the while reason standardized testing exists. It's the most objective measure of ability that totally disregards all the confounders in GPA
 
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Sure. The main thrust of my post is that when all these tactics are employed in concert (stringent curving to C+/B-, gifted peer group, tricky test design, difficult testing material that strays away from memorization, harsh grading policies), they achieve a curve and truly differentiate the cream of the crop (people who go on to the top med schools) from the highly prepared rest of the individuals, who are still well-equipped to be in medical school but won't get in because the high-stat-grubbing mentality of admissions dictates that 3.2 is too low a GPA, in spite of the fact that it might actually be respectable by all accounts of reason.

Would you say that the responsibility, then, lies on the student to choose a school and major that they would do somewhat well in? I'm not saying everyone should go to the "easiest" school, but maybe the best school for a premed isn't necessarily the highest ranked school they get into.

Say two people of virtually equal academic ability attend the same school, one majors in just bio while the other in bio/physics/engineering. First student earns a 3.8 and second student earns a 3.3. Given equal MCATs, the first student still has the edge, even though the second student would have gotten the same GPA but decided to triple major in 3 time consuming majors. His GPA isn't really representative of his academic ability, but why did he triple major in the first place if he couldn't excel in it?

Same goes for some deciding between X school and a top school. Should a premed really go to their top school if they will only end up performing average there, where the average GPA is 3.1?
 
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Sure, it's not simple. Every applicant is unique, but if two students are identical (MCAT, major, volunteer, clinical experience, research, etc.) except for GPA, and student A has a 3.5 from a state school and student B has a 3.3 from Princeton, I would go with student A. I don't think the difference in rigor is that profound and it's highly subjective.

P.s. I think that a 4.0 is quite the accomplishment at most U.S. schools.
I recently reviewed an applicant at an admissions committee meeting who had a mediocre MCAT (low 30s) but a 4.0 at a notoriously difficult university. Yes, that mattered. In fact, I personally wrote the MCAT off as a fluke; it's a one day exam compared to your GPA which reflects 3-4 years (if not more) of academic work.

It's not as simple as "either/or." It's a calculus, and every case is different.
I recently reviewed an applicant at an admissions committee meeting who had a mediocre MCAT (low 30s) but a 4.0 at a notoriously difficult university. Yes, that mattered. In fact, I personally wrote the MCAT off as a fluke; it's a one day exam compared to your GPA which reflects 3-4 years (if not more) of academic work.

It's not as simple as "either/or." It's a calculus, and every case is different.
 
I didn't mean he isn't cut out for med school, just that he performed poorly and seems to be unnecessarily taking out his frustration on poor innocent state schoolers.

Honestly I wouldn't be putting him down (and would probably actually sympathize with him) if he weren't so pretentious. Take make matters worse I don't see why he thinks he is so smart. Has he even taken the MCAT yet? Is it really only that he went to a top 30 undergrad?
I don't know, I don't think he thinks he's "so smart". It seems like he thinks it's ridiculous how easy *some* universities are, I agree.
 
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