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US World and News 2016 Ranking
- Thread starter FL19DPT
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edgy
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"All the health rankings are based solely on the results of peer assessment surveys sent to deans, other administrators and/or faculty at accredited degree programs or schools in each discipline. All schools surveyed in a discipline were sent the same number of surveys."
Not only is the methodology garbage, but less than 40% of accredited programs actually participated in this survey. I wouldn't put too much stock in these rankings.
Not only is the methodology garbage, but less than 40% of accredited programs actually participated in this survey. I wouldn't put too much stock in these rankings.
I decided to make my program decision based on many factors, with special consideration to cost and no attention paid to the rankings. I think most people on SDN would agree that was the right move.
Well put. OP, evaluating research methodology will be a useful skill down the road.
I see you edited your original post. Nice move.
Well put. OP, evaluating research methodology will be a useful skill down the road.
I see you edited your original post. Nice move.
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I personally took both of these things into heavy consideration when applying to schools. I agree the huge financial burden is something which needs to be diminished as much as possible. However, when speaking to my boss (owner of an outpatient ortho clinic in the SF Bay Area) he claims rankings do matter. He mostly cited networking opportunities but also alluded to differences in quality of education. Yes, you end up with same degree and pass the same boards but the path you take to get there can vary tremendously. He hired two additional therapists while I worked there and I know for a fact he took the program from which the applicant graduated into heavy consideration. Also, for fun I sometimes look up clinics that are hiring, check out their Yelp reviews and look over the staff biographies. I can't help but notice the vast majority of therapists employed highly rated clinics either went to programs in the area or highly ranked programs. Apparently prestige still matters.
I don't know what the future holds but I would rather go to a higher ranked school now just in case it matters more in the future. If competition for jobs increases I want to be as competitive as possible on all variables so I can work where I want. I know if the ranking system changes to more legitimate methodology the rankings as they exist now could change tremendously. Yet, I can only work with the information available to me now and I am confident I am going to attend a great quality program. Luckily, I was fortunate enough to get into a highly ranked school with a scholarship which made the tuition on par with my in state public schools. So I did not have to make the difficult decision to go to a lower ranked school because it would save me money in the long run.
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"My 7 jeans are the MOST comfortable jeans, not to discount the basic stitch and fabric of more basic jeans. My boss who has worn jeans for over 40 years, told me to place consideration from whatever.com's rankings because that's what people will look up. Even though everyone in the industry knows that the website does not measure fabric quality, constructions, etc. When you meet new clients, they will ask you what type of jeans you wear and their patronage depends on your answer."
The reason why everyone is stating that the measurements are unreliable, is because it is. It's easy to disregard those comments when you have not been through EBP or learned how to critically appraise literature based on their research methods, data/meta-data, and statistical reasoning.
I'm not even going to address the comparison of PT to food. As for medical doctors, ask if it matters at the Allo forum and then come back so that we can help de-feather and tar you. Residency matters. Law's rankings are heavily tied to BAR pass rates. Both law and business are more focused on networking. That has a lot to do with starting salaries. I'm not discounting the importance of networking, it's very important. However I will argue that the school a PT attended will have insignificant bearing on their referral source or their starting pay -- that's what matters.
I'm from the SF Bay Area, not once have I met anyone, professional or layperson who looked up where their PTs graduated from and then compared it from US News before making an appointment. If they ask (many do) during sessions, they either have heard of your school or not. Out of the top 50 schools ranked on US News, most laypeople would probably have heard of 5-6 (USC, Columbia, Emory, NYU, UCSF, etc.) that have made their reputation in other areas other than local or state schools. As much as some may want rankings to matter to the public, the reality is that they don't, and for good reason.
Now if we bring in all these developing private for profits, IMO those can go to the bottom of any ranking until otherwise proven.
The reason why everyone is stating that the measurements are unreliable, is because it is. It's easy to disregard those comments when you have not been through EBP or learned how to critically appraise literature based on their research methods, data/meta-data, and statistical reasoning.
I'm not even going to address the comparison of PT to food. As for medical doctors, ask if it matters at the Allo forum and then come back so that we can help de-feather and tar you. Residency matters. Law's rankings are heavily tied to BAR pass rates. Both law and business are more focused on networking. That has a lot to do with starting salaries. I'm not discounting the importance of networking, it's very important. However I will argue that the school a PT attended will have insignificant bearing on their referral source or their starting pay -- that's what matters.
I'm from the SF Bay Area, not once have I met anyone, professional or layperson who looked up where their PTs graduated from and then compared it from US News before making an appointment. If they ask (many do) during sessions, they either have heard of your school or not. Out of the top 50 schools ranked on US News, most laypeople would probably have heard of 5-6 (USC, Columbia, Emory, NYU, UCSF, etc.) that have made their reputation in other areas other than local or state schools. As much as some may want rankings to matter to the public, the reality is that they don't, and for good reason.
Now if we bring in all these developing private for profits, IMO those can go to the bottom of any ranking until otherwise proven.
Very good discussion we're having! To add on, I've worked (as a tech) with therapists from all the schools in GA, including the highly ranked Emory and some out of state schools like USA at an enormous private outpt ortho corporation in the south east. The reason why I think rankings do not matter much is bc I have seen new grads from both Emory (ranked 5th, 100k tuition) and for example, Georgia State (lower ranked, 50k tuition) hired and paid the same salary. Also, there are so many continuing ed courses after graduating and numerous opportunities to learn after receiving your license.
Food for thought - besides maybe connections/networking, many physicians refer patients according to the therapist's credentials and skills, not their alma mater. For example, a therapist could have gone to the lowest ranked PT school in the state, but if he/she is the only board certified specialist in the local area, wouldn't you (as a consumer) be more comfortable being treated by him/her? I'd also think physicians would be more confident in sending patients to a therapist who is an expert in that respective area. Just some additional thoughts.
Food for thought - besides maybe connections/networking, many physicians refer patients according to the therapist's credentials and skills, not their alma mater. For example, a therapist could have gone to the lowest ranked PT school in the state, but if he/she is the only board certified specialist in the local area, wouldn't you (as a consumer) be more comfortable being treated by him/her? I'd also think physicians would be more confident in sending patients to a therapist who is an expert in that respective area. Just some additional thoughts.
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Uh oh, someone got hurt. Wait, I shouldn't make that assumption. Let me clarify something for you. When I Yelp, I look for reviews of the food, you're absolutely correct. The restaurant (institution in this case) would be where I would like to visit for my patronage, absolutely correct. Not once have I called to ask WHERE the chefs received their credentials to provide this service. Be honest, have you? To the very few, it may matter but to the vast majority, not so much. You can't even make a valid analogy and I'm suppose to assume that you have competent appraisal skills? You're right, I totally missed its simplicity. I don't want you getting upset over a forum so I'll just take your word for it. Also, research what happened when the Mayo Clinic and other organizations attempted to have providers post their outcomes online (an actual objective measure) and ask why those rankings never caught on. Can it be that people cared more about how the front office looked? Or proximity (within 30 min) of an in-network clinic to their home? Hmmm...
I never said I knew why certain physicians refer patients to certain facilities. Maybe word of mouth, in-network insurance, good past communication/ relationship, or patient choice... But PT graduating institution, most likely insignificant.
I never said I knew why certain physicians refer patients to certain facilities. Maybe word of mouth, in-network insurance, good past communication/ relationship, or patient choice... But PT graduating institution, most likely insignificant.
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First, let me apologize. The last thing I want to do is create an environment where students feel unwelcome from posting their views.
I graduated from a reputable private school, large liberal arts, med, nursing, dentistry, etc. While going through the program I grew pretty tired of the name being thrown around like we should be grateful to have their name on our diplomas. This would be the case with or without US New's list. By the time I graduated, I had networked the SF Bay Area in all 4 major hospital systems: UC, Kaiser, Sutter, and Stanford. My classmates that came back to CA now work for a larger private chain. Other graduates from preceding years held a gathering for us for a meet and greet and for us to ask questions and continue our networking. One of our questions were, "Do you think we can negotiate a higher starting salary?" We got a 'ohhh, you're so cute and naive' laughter with a "No". No is correct, wages remained the same as someone who graduated elsewhere. This was the same for all the sites I interviewed with, with the exception of a private OP, where the owner had more leverage. Unlike medical programs, we do not require residency where an institution may actually verify our psychomotor and patient care skills, not to mention a more rigorous boards exam. We rely on short rotations to which our experiences and quality of education can vary greatly. I believe that placing your bets on the higher ranking program 'just in case' there were changes in the future that may otherwise validate such rankings may put you in the same mentality of some of us when we graduated. I understand that your views may be encouraged by your experiences and mentoring, but just keep in mind that there are fewer real world examples. If anything, a residency at a well known institution would be more beneficial.
In a laymen consumer's view, the primary method to finding a provider is an in-network list. Second, believe it or not, is how the facility looks. Patients relate cleanliness, presentation, and organization (of the lobby) to patient care more than outcome measures. I'm hoping that changes with education. Third, word of mouth by another provider, or family/friends. We have tried a ranking system based on outcomes, very few paid attention to it. As steveyk mentioned, there has been no connection (in literature) that supports referrals being made for a therapists due to their alma mater. However, like he mentioned, the specialty may have a large influence, especially with more rare specialities such as the WCS, pelvic floor, or TMJ.
It was also brought up that US News has been a problem, not only have they been misrepresenting what schools may or can offer students, they even have a service for schools to access their data (for a fee) in which schools may use to up their rankings. They have also been glorifying PT (I guess I don't blame them), based on BLS estimates, to the point where private education corporations have began opening up private for-profit schools. This will lead to the over saturation of our field, and if the University of Phoenix is any example, you may just have your rankings. US News is a marketing scam and it disheartens me that they have such an impact factor on young students and the public. That is why I would like to have more informed patients based on outcome versus an unreliable ranking.
I graduated from a reputable private school, large liberal arts, med, nursing, dentistry, etc. While going through the program I grew pretty tired of the name being thrown around like we should be grateful to have their name on our diplomas. This would be the case with or without US New's list. By the time I graduated, I had networked the SF Bay Area in all 4 major hospital systems: UC, Kaiser, Sutter, and Stanford. My classmates that came back to CA now work for a larger private chain. Other graduates from preceding years held a gathering for us for a meet and greet and for us to ask questions and continue our networking. One of our questions were, "Do you think we can negotiate a higher starting salary?" We got a 'ohhh, you're so cute and naive' laughter with a "No". No is correct, wages remained the same as someone who graduated elsewhere. This was the same for all the sites I interviewed with, with the exception of a private OP, where the owner had more leverage. Unlike medical programs, we do not require residency where an institution may actually verify our psychomotor and patient care skills, not to mention a more rigorous boards exam. We rely on short rotations to which our experiences and quality of education can vary greatly. I believe that placing your bets on the higher ranking program 'just in case' there were changes in the future that may otherwise validate such rankings may put you in the same mentality of some of us when we graduated. I understand that your views may be encouraged by your experiences and mentoring, but just keep in mind that there are fewer real world examples. If anything, a residency at a well known institution would be more beneficial.
In a laymen consumer's view, the primary method to finding a provider is an in-network list. Second, believe it or not, is how the facility looks. Patients relate cleanliness, presentation, and organization (of the lobby) to patient care more than outcome measures. I'm hoping that changes with education. Third, word of mouth by another provider, or family/friends. We have tried a ranking system based on outcomes, very few paid attention to it. As steveyk mentioned, there has been no connection (in literature) that supports referrals being made for a therapists due to their alma mater. However, like he mentioned, the specialty may have a large influence, especially with more rare specialities such as the WCS, pelvic floor, or TMJ.
It was also brought up that US News has been a problem, not only have they been misrepresenting what schools may or can offer students, they even have a service for schools to access their data (for a fee) in which schools may use to up their rankings. They have also been glorifying PT (I guess I don't blame them), based on BLS estimates, to the point where private education corporations have began opening up private for-profit schools. This will lead to the over saturation of our field, and if the University of Phoenix is any example, you may just have your rankings. US News is a marketing scam and it disheartens me that they have such an impact factor on young students and the public. That is why I would like to have more informed patients based on outcome versus an unreliable ranking.
