Vet - Looking to fill gaps

[Zieg217]

Hello all. I was looking for some additional perspective and where gaps may exist in my application. Here are my stats.

6 years of Navy service as a nuclear electronics technician on a submarine. I have very high performance reviews from that time and became the lead of my division and a supervisor. Left the Navy to work at Westinghouse Electric Company as an engineer and instructor where I still work full time while completing my post bacc pre-med program. With Westinghouse, I have done some R&D that I plan to use as research hours although I recognize this is not in an academic setting and I have no pubs. I have about 100 hours or so of non-clinical volunteer time while in the military, about 200 hours of hospice volunteer time, 50 hours of shadowing (MD general practice, MD radiation oncologist, and DO ophthalmologist), and about 60 hours of volunteer time at a hospital where I still continue to volunteer and intend to do so until I submit applications next year by which time I should be around 150-200 hours there. My degree is in computer science with a 3.82 cGPA and a 3.0 sGPA (only based on 1 math class I got a B in). In my Navy nuclear education I was top of my class, but I doubt that will count for anything. In my post bacc program I have completed gen chem (1, 2, and labs for both), gen bio (1, 2 and labs for both), biostats 1, and o-chem (1, 2, and labs for both) with a 4.0. I am currently taking physics 1 (and lab), biochem 1, and cell & molecular biology.

I intend to apply next year with the following planned between now and then. I will be taking physics 2 (and lab), biochem 2, and human genetics in the spring. I will be scheduling the MCAT in late winter/early spring next year. Practice exam scores so far are 510 (taken 1/2/23) and 519 (taken 7/27/23). I will continue to shadow (have some others lined up for the near future including MD pediatric surgeon, MD pediatric cardiologist, and DO general practice. As stated above, I will continue to volunteer ~4 hours per week at the hospital ER.

I would sincerely appreciate any advice or insight. This could include suggestions on filling any gaps you may see or schools you think I would be able to apply to.

Thank you,

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[Mr.Smile12]

Good for you. What is your state of residence? Have you started thinking about where you want to practice as a physician? (Military care or civilian?)

 

[Zieg217]

Good for you. What is your state of residence? Have you started thinking about where you want to practice as a physician? (Military care or civilian?)

Thank you for your reply. I am in Pennsylvania and am very interested in rejoining the military as a physician. This has put USUHS at the top of my list and using the HPSP for any civilian school I manage to get accepted to if not USUHS.

 

[schmoob]

Hello all. I was looking for some additional perspective and where gaps may exist in my application. Here are my stats.

6 years of Navy service as a nuclear electronics technician on a submarine. I have very high performance reviews from that time and became the lead of my division and a supervisor. Left the Navy to work at Westinghouse Electric Company as an engineer and instructor where I still work full time while completing my post bacc pre-med program. With Westinghouse, I have done some R&D that I plan to use as research hours although I recognize this is not in an academic setting and I have no pubs. I have about 100 hours or so of non-clinical volunteer time while in the military, about 200 hours of hospice volunteer time, 50 hours of shadowing (MD general practice, MD radiation oncologist, and DO ophthalmologist), and about 60 hours of volunteer time at a hospital where I still continue to volunteer and intend to do so until I submit applications next year by which time I should be around 150-200 hours there. My degree is in computer science with a 3.82 cGPA and a 3.0 sGPA (only based on 1 math class I got a B in). In my Navy nuclear education I was top of my class, but I doubt that will count for anything. In my post bacc program I have completed gen chem (1, 2, and labs for both), gen bio (1, 2 and labs for both), biostats 1, and o-chem (1, 2, and labs for both) with a 4.0. I am currently taking physics 1 (and lab), biochem 1, and cell & molecular biology.

I intend to apply next year with the following planned between now and then. I will be taking physics 2 (and lab), biochem 2, and human genetics in the spring. I will be scheduling the MCAT in late winter/early spring next year. Practice exam scores so far are 510 (taken 1/2/23) and 519 (taken 7/27/23). I will continue to shadow (have some others lined up for the near future including MD pediatric surgeon, MD pediatric cardiologist, and DO general practice. As stated above, I will continue to volunteer ~4 hours per week at the hospital ER.

I would sincerely appreciate any advice or insight. This could include suggestions on filling any gaps you may see or schools you think I would be able to apply to.

Thank you,

Ugh a Nuke 🤮 and a Bubblehead 😃
I kid! I kid! I know how intelligent you folks are.

I too was prior enlisted CT, similar path, LPO etc. and I got in. it sounds like you have a great shot depending on your MCATs. Based on your service I agree that USUHS is your best bet. Good luck shipmate!

 

[Zieg217]

Ugh a Nuke 🤮 and a Bubblehead 😃
I kid! I kid! I know how intelligent you folks are.

I too was prior enlisted CT, similar path, LPO etc. and I got in. it sounds like you have a great shot depending on your MCATs. Based on your service I agree that USUHS is your best bet. Good luck shipmate!

Haha, certainly no stranger to getting poked at for being a nuke submariner. But thank you for your reply. How long ago did you attend USUHS? I am trying to gather as much information as possible and weigh out a civilian medical career vs. a military medical career. It is clear that, in most cases, everything depends on an individual's circumstances and luck of command. How has your military medicine career been?

 

[schmoob]

Haha, certainly no stranger to getting poked at for being a nuke submariner. But thank you for your reply. How long ago did you attend USUHS? I am trying to gather as much information as possible and weigh out a civilian medical career vs. a military medical career. It is clear that, in most cases, everything depends on an individual's circumstances and luck of command. How has your military medicine career been?

Thank you for the nice words. I was accepted to a USU program but did not go. I decided Dentistry was right for me. But I’m familiar with the process. You can potentially have:
-6 years already active
4 years of USUHS that doesn’t count until retirement, like the naval academy. But you will be paid as an O1E. No loans.
-At least 3years of residency making +$100K as an O3E
-7 years repayment
-4 more years with lots of bonuses.

Now you’re at 20 years active and can retire with 24 years because of USUHS. So basically at least CDR pay 60%. My buddy put on full bird before 20 years so it all depends.

If you get any VA disabilities that’s even more. And don’t forget that if you have any student loans right now those will go away in 10 years.

IMO it’s a no-brainer. Things aren’t exactly awesome in the private side.

 

[chssoccer7]

Hello all. I was looking for some additional perspective and where gaps may exist in my application. Here are my stats.

6 years of Navy service as a nuclear electronics technician on a submarine. I have very high performance reviews from that time and became the lead of my division and a supervisor. Left the Navy to work at Westinghouse Electric Company as an engineer and instructor where I still work full time while completing my post bacc pre-med program. With Westinghouse, I have done some R&D that I plan to use as research hours although I recognize this is not in an academic setting and I have no pubs. I have about 100 hours or so of non-clinical volunteer time while in the military, about 200 hours of hospice volunteer time, 50 hours of shadowing (MD general practice, MD radiation oncologist, and DO ophthalmologist), and about 60 hours of volunteer time at a hospital where I still continue to volunteer and intend to do so until I submit applications next year by which time I should be around 150-200 hours there. My degree is in computer science with a 3.82 cGPA and a 3.0 sGPA (only based on 1 math class I got a B in). In my Navy nuclear education I was top of my class, but I doubt that will count for anything. In my post bacc program I have completed gen chem (1, 2, and labs for both), gen bio (1, 2 and labs for both), biostats 1, and o-chem (1, 2, and labs for both) with a 4.0. I am currently taking physics 1 (and lab), biochem 1, and cell & molecular biology.

I intend to apply next year with the following planned between now and then. I will be taking physics 2 (and lab), biochem 2, and human genetics in the spring. I will be scheduling the MCAT in late winter/early spring next year. Practice exam scores so far are 510 (taken 1/2/23) and 519 (taken 7/27/23). I will continue to shadow (have some others lined up for the near future including MD pediatric surgeon, MD pediatric cardiologist, and DO general practice. As stated above, I will continue to volunteer ~4 hours per week at the hospital ER.

I would sincerely appreciate any advice or insight. This could include suggestions on filling any gaps you may see or schools you think I would be able to apply to.

Thank you,

I was also a nuke, albeit of the ETN variety. It sounds like you've been out for a bit so this may not that helpful but one of the hardest parts of the app for me was quantifying all the things I did in the military as a nuke, putting them in terms a civilian would understand, and remembering names/contact numbers for people that would be able to verify them. I would do this now so that you aren't scrambling when the app opens up trying to remember who your LPO/LCPOs were at various commands when you did things. Also, read up on how to enter your JST into AMCAS- it's a real pain in the ass due to how much credit we get "recommended" for the pipeline and any schools you went to and makes your year-by-year GPA look incredibly weird on the application.

 

[pawprint]

I’d be cautious about applying to USUHS or HPSP, depending on your life circumstances and what you want to do.

Looking at retirement numbers, especially with your prior service can sound enticing, but I’d challenge you to think about what it actually means to be an active duty doctor with required payback considering the current state of military medicine (especially in the Navy).

You will likely end up at a duty station you don’t want to be at, doing a type of medicine you don’t want to do. If you are okay with that to get your retirement, great. If not, think long and hard. Even if you end up in a speciality to you want, the Navy is notorious for pulling you to an operational billet where you’ll be doing basic sick call. Especially right now where we are hurting for active duty doctors. Deployment op tempo is high because we don’t have the manning to keep up.

In my 4 years of Hpsp payback, I spent most of that time deployed. I’d get back from a 7 month deployment and find out another unit needed a doctor 3 months later and so I’d get sent out again with a different one. We are burning through people at the moment.

 

[Zieg217]

I’d be cautious about applying to USUHS or HPSP, depending on your life circumstances and what you want to do.

Looking at retirement numbers, especially with your prior service can sound enticing, but I’d challenge you to think about what it actually means to be an active duty doctor with required payback considering the current state of military medicine (especially in the Navy).

You will likely end up at a duty station you don’t want to be at, doing a type of medicine you don’t want to do. If you are okay with that to get your retirement, great. If not, think long and hard. Even if you end up in a speciality to you want, the Navy is notorious for pulling you to an operational billet where you’ll be doing basic sick call. Especially right now where we are hurting for active duty doctors. Deployment op tempo is high because we don’t have the manning to keep up.

In my 4 years of Hpsp payback, I spent most of that time deployed. I’d get back from a 7 month deployment and find out another unit needed a doctor 3 months later and so I’d get sent out again with a different one. We are burning through people at the moment.

Thank you very much for your reply. I understand the risks of being in the military, with the caveat that my understanding comes from being an enlisted submariner. This is undoubtedly a different experience than being a commissioned physician, so talking to those of you who have been in that specific role is extremely valuable.

With that said, I have a few questions regarding your experience. One of the things that was clear to me during my enlistment was that there are a lot of different variables that contribute to an individual's experience in the military. These could include (but certainly not limited to) family, location, finances, and command. This makes it very difficult to judge how my experience may be in the same or similar role as others in the military. May I ask what your specialty is and where you were stationed?

Additionally, you said:

You will likely end up at a duty station you don’t want to be at, doing a type of medicine you don’t want to do

The duty station location is an aspect I understand I would have to be willing to forgo any control of if I joined the military. However, the second part of your statement is something that goes counter to what I understood. What you said implies the military would force me into a specialty I do not want to go into. I understood the residency process as being similar to civilian residency (assuming I go to USUHS) in that I would apply to a residency of my choice, and if I matched, I would go there. If not, I may go on a GMO (or OMO) tour before trying to apply for a residency again. That said, I also understand there are very limited spots for a given specialty to apply to for residency. This may be oversimplified, but the basic premise is, that I would not be forced to go into a specialty against my will. If this is inaccurate, could someone please clarify this process for me?

Last, the op tempo is another area I have been considering very heavily as I go through this process, and it is absolutely a factor for me to (or not to) apply to USUHS/HPSP. I am familiar with the Navy and how it handled rotations for enlisted submariners. For example, we had sea tour and shore tour rotations. Typically, a sea tour rotation was ~4 years, and a shore tour was ~3 years. During a sea tour, deployments were expected and how often you deployed depends on command, world events, and your job. For example, while on a sea tour on my submarine, I had two 7-month deployments and many smaller underway tours (these could be for training, testing, or other tasks) that would last anywhere from a week to a few months. During a shore tour, individuals typically did not deploy, and it was basically just a 9-5. With that said, is this the normal type of rotation to expect for a Navy physician? If not, I would really appreciate any additional information anyone could provide on this.

Thank you and everyone else for your replies. They are sincerely appreciated and very valuable as I consider the next steps of my journey.

 

[Zieg217]

Thank you for the nice words. I was accepted to a USU program but did not go. I decided Dentistry was right for me. But I’m familiar with the process. You can potentially have:
-6 years already active
4 years of USUHS that doesn’t count until retirement, like the naval academy. But you will be paid as an O1E. No loans.
-At least 3years of residency making +$100K as an O3E
-7 years repayment
-4 more years with lots of bonuses.

Now you’re at 20 years active and can retire with 24 years because of USUHS. So basically at least CDR pay 60%. My buddy put on full bird before 20 years so it all depends.

If you get any VA disabilities that’s even more. And don’t forget that if you have any student loans right now those will go away in 10 years.

IMO it’s a no-brainer. Things aren’t exactly awesome in the private side.

What you stated here are all absolutely on my list of positives as far as rejoining the Navy through USUHS. Getting paid O1E through school and O3E in residency is an incredible benefit, especially when considering my spouse and any possible children we may have. Being able to be in a strong support role during those ~8 years is one of the main reasons I am even considering rejoining. Additionally, I personally have a strong call to service and sincerely look forward to putting on the uniform again.

The negatives are also something I need to consider, and the most important person I am worried about is my spouse and how it may affect them with me being a Navy physician. I know what it feels like to be away from the ones I love for an extended period of time for deployments, but my spouse does not and the best I can do is try to prepare them for that inevitability should I join. Looking at the reply I posted just above this one to pawprint lists some of the challenges I also need to consider. Do you have any additional insight on the post above?

 

[Zieg217]

I was also a nuke, albeit of the ETN variety. It sounds like you've been out for a bit so this may not that helpful but one of the hardest parts of the app for me was quantifying all the things I did in the military as a nuke, putting them in terms a civilian would understand, and remembering names/contact numbers for people that would be able to verify them. I would do this now so that you aren't scrambling when the app opens up trying to remember who your LPO/LCPOs were at various commands when you did things. Also, read up on how to enter your JST into AMCAS- it's a real pain in the ass due to how much credit we get "recommended" for the pipeline and any schools you went to and makes your year-by-year GPA look incredibly weird on the application.

Thank you for this insight. This is something I have also noticed to be a large pain in the butt but jumping through hoops is something I've become pretty accustomed to at this point so I suppose that helps. I can thank the Navy and the nuclear field for training me to be such a good circus animal. As I start filling out my AMCAS application next year, I am sure I will come across issues/questions so you may hear from me again regarding that if that is okay with you.

I am assuming you went through USUHS? Also, I was curious if you had any additional insight you could provide regarding my reply to pawprint two posts above this one, please.

 

[schmoob]

What you stated here are all absolutely on my list of positives as far as rejoining the Navy through USUHS. Getting paid O1E through school and O3E in residency is an incredible benefit, especially when considering my spouse and any possible children we may have. Being able to be in a strong support role during those ~8 years is one of the main reasons I am even considering rejoining. Additionally, I personally have a strong call to service and sincerely look forward to putting on the uniform again.

The negatives are also something I need to consider, and the most important person I am worried about is my spouse and how it may affect them with me being a Navy physician. I know what it feels like to be away from the ones I love for an extended period of time for deployments, but my spouse does not and the best I can do is try to prepare them for that inevitability should I join. Looking at the reply I posted just above this one to pawprint lists some of the challenges I also need to consider. Do you have any additional insight on the post above?

I love wise posts like this. It’s a big decision and you’re putting your family first.

I think your specialty would really dictate deployment rotations, unless I’m wrong. My buddy is an AF Colonel. He did peds then neonatology. Not much of a demand for that. He has literally never deployed. ED, Surgery, orthopedic, etc all have a higher deployment rate

Also consider a Fellowship. It’ll bring you closer to 20 and that’s 3 less years chancing a deployment. Normally I wouldn’t say this to someone joining the military but I know you’ve done your time at sea.

 

[chssoccer7]

Thank you for this insight. This is something I have also noticed to be a large pain in the butt but jumping through hoops is something I've become pretty accustomed to at this point so I suppose that helps. I can thank the Navy and the nuclear field for training me to be such a good circus animal. As I start filling out my AMCAS application next year, I am sure I will come across issues/questions so you may hear from me again regarding that if that is okay with you.

I am assuming you went through USUHS? Also, I was curious if you had any additional insight you could provide regarding my reply to pawprint two posts above this one, please.

Of course, feel free to reach out with any application questions.

For the first part of your reply, I did 5 years in Norfolk, VA (do not recommend) and then my shore tour was at NNPTC in Charleston thankfully. I did not do USUHS, I did a regular app and all my interviews thus far have been regular MD schools. For me, the decision came down to if I had the energy and patience to put up with all the non job related BS the military puts you through again, and the simple answer for me is I don't and my family doesn't. I did 11 years and got out in 2021, I'm just ready to live where I want (as an attending, obviously there's some hoops to jump through in medicine as well during the training path but it has an end) make my own decisions, and grow a beard if I want to. It has many good benefits, but for me it just wasn't worth it.

 

[Zieg217]

I love wise posts like this. It’s a big decision and you’re putting your family first.

I think your specialty would really dictate deployment rotations, unless I’m wrong. My buddy is an AF Colonel. He did peds then neonatology. Not much of a demand for that. He has literally never deployed. ED, Surgery, orthopedic, etc all have a higher deployment rate

Also consider a Fellowship. It’ll bring you closer to 20 and that’s 3 less years chancing a deployment. Normally I wouldn’t say this to someone joining the military but I know you’ve done your time at sea.

Thank you. I certainly hope to make the best decision given my circumstances. It is a big decision that will essentially take me into my 50s and I hope to make it as painless as possible for the ones I care about.

Does a fellowship count towards time served? I thought residency and fellowships count for retirement years but not for the time served for ADSO. So, after my residency (or fellowship), I would have to serve 14 years for retirement.

 

[Zieg217]

Of course, feel free to reach out with any application questions.

For the first part of your reply, I did 5 years in Norfolk, VA (do not recommend) and then my shore tour was at NNPTC in Charleston thankfully. I did not do USUHS, I did a regular app and all my interviews thus far have been regular MD schools. For me, the decision came down to if I had the energy and patience to put up with all the non job related BS the military puts you through again, and the simple answer for me is I don't and my family doesn't. I did 11 years and got out in 2021, I'm just ready to live where I want (as an attending, obviously there's some hoops to jump through in medicine as well but it has an end) make my own decisions, and grow a beard if I want to. It has many good benefits, but for me it just wasn't worth it.

Thank you very much for this information. I have heard several of my friends who got stationed at Norfolk hated their experience there as well. What was it you didn't like about it? Also, I have just two more questions. What is your specialty and what kind of op tempo did you see during your time at Norfolk? Sorry to bombard you with so many questions.

 

[schmoob]

Thank you. I certainly hope to make the best decision given my circumstances. It is a big decision that will essentially take me into my 50s and I hope to make it as painless as possible for the ones I care about.

Does a fellowship count towards time served? I thought residency and fellowships count for retirement years but not for the time served for ADSO. So, after my residency (or fellowship), I would have to serve 14 years for retirement.

Residency and fellowship are considered active duty and count towards retirement only if you do a military residency and training. It does not count towards USUHS payback. If you do a civilian residency it does not count, it just adds on to your payback.

I’m about 85% sure of this. If anyone finds I’m mistaken please correct me.

 

[chssoccer7]

Thank you very much for this information. I have heard several of my friends who got stationed at Norfolk hated their experience there as well. What was it you didn't like about it? Also, I have just two more questions. What is your specialty and what kind of op tempo did you see during your time at Norfolk? Sorry to bombard you with so many questions.

I'm not a physician, I applied this year.

For Norfolk, the #1 complaint was traffic. The carriers stagger their start times, ours was 0800. For me to be there at 08 and not risk traffic making me late, I would have to leave my house no later than 615 (I lived ~30 mins away). Leaving work at 1730-1800, it was not uncommon for it to take me an hour or more to get home. Outside of that, I just generally did not like the area much. Granted, I didn't have a ton of free time to enjoy it.

For op tempo, I was on a pre-com carrier, so for the first few years I did not see any sea time. I did have to do initial crit in both plants, fill testing, power range testing, all the other fun stuff that comes with brand new plants and was 3 section duty for most of this. Then the last two years were just constant in and outs for sea trials, flight deck trials, out for a few weeks in for a few days then back out, over and over. All in all, I didn't see a ton of time at sea but I sure spent a hell of a lot of time on board the ship as all nukes do.

No worries about the questions! There are not a ton of people from the nuke community who have tread the medicine path, so i'm happy to help with anything I can.

 

[pawprint]

Thank you very much for your reply. I understand the risks of being in the military, with the caveat that my understanding comes from being an enlisted submariner. This is undoubtedly a different experience than being a commissioned physician, so talking to those of you who have been in that specific role is extremely valuable.

With that said, I have a few questions regarding your experience. One of the things that was clear to me during my enlistment was that there are a lot of different variables that contribute to an individual's experience in the military. These could include (but certainly not limited to) family, location, finances, and command. This makes it very difficult to judge how my experience may be in the same or similar role as others in the military. May I ask what your specialty is and where you were stationed?

Additionally, you said:

The duty station location is an aspect I understand I would have to be willing to forgo any control of if I joined the military. However, the second part of your statement is something that goes counter to what I understood. What you said implies the military would force me into a specialty I do not want to go into. I understood the residency process as being similar to civilian residency (assuming I go to USUHS) in that I would apply to a residency of my choice, and if I matched, I would go there. If not, I may go on a GMO (or OMO) tour before trying to apply for a residency again. That said, I also understand there are very limited spots for a given specialty to apply to for residency. This may be oversimplified, but the basic premise is, that I would not be forced to go into a specialty against my will. If this is inaccurate, could someone please clarify this process for me?

Last, the op tempo is another area I have been considering very heavily as I go through this process, and it is absolutely a factor for me to (or not to) apply to USUHS/HPSP. I am familiar with the Navy and how it handled rotations for enlisted submariners. For example, we had sea tour and shore tour rotations. Typically, a sea tour rotation was ~4 years, and a shore tour was ~3 years. During a sea tour, deployments were expected and how often you deployed depends on command, world events, and your job. For example, while on a sea tour on my submarine, I had two 7-month deployments and many smaller underway tours (these could be for training, testing, or other tasks) that would last anywhere from a week to a few months. During a shore tour, individuals typically did not deploy, and it was basically just a 9-5. With that said, is this the normal type of rotation to expect for a Navy physician? If not, I would really appreciate any additional information anyone could provide on this.

Thank you and everyone else for your replies. They are sincerely appreciated and very valuable as I consider the next steps of my journey.

You are correct that the military cannot necessarily “force” you into a specialty. However, our residencies have a MUCH smaller number compared to the civilian world, so typically non-competitive specialities (like pediatrics) become very competitive. I did pediatrics, and our match rate each year was around 20%.

If you don’t match into the specialty you want, you’ll “match” into a transitional year. After your TY, you’ll go out to the fleet as a General Medical Officer (GMO), Flight Surgeon, or Undersea Medical Officer. All of these are jobs where you do basic sick call consisting of mostly MSK and psych issues.

If you do match into the speciality you want, you still have a very high chance you’ll end up as a GMO somewhere as those billets need to be filled and the navy is switching to using board certified people to fill those billets. So if you want to be a GI specialist, or a OB/GYN, understand that there is a very strong chance that you won’t be doing scopes or delivering babies, but instead be evaluating chronic back pain and ankle injuries for years of your career.

Navy medicine’s version of ship/shore rotation is specialty/GMO rotation. Which is terrible for your career as a doctor. Good luck not doing your specialty for multiple years while you do basic sick call and then trying to go back.