VMD/MBA and DVM/MBA

[deleted1125995]

Hello,

Has anyone considered or completed an MBA with a vet degree?

I am specifically looking at the program offered through Penn. I understand that this program is NOT geared toward running a practice. If I were to complete the program, I would be more interested in a finance position for veterinary medical devices or pharmaceuticals, life-science venture capital, or hospital administration.

Is anyone else considering this particular dual-degree track? Has anyone gone on to do it? Is there much of a market for VMD/MBA or DVM/MBA degree holders, and what are some paths you could take with it? What salary could one expect with these types of jobs?

Thank you in advance!

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[JaynaAli]

My school (not Penn) offers a dual DVM/MBA program. Essentially the MBA portion was 32 credits and was free or had very minimal costs. I know at least one of my classmates did it, but as far as I know this person just works a typical vet job.

 

[supershorty]

I would be more interested in a finance position for veterinary medical devices or pharmaceuticals, or life-science venture capital

Why do you need a DVM if this is your goal?

This is a serious question. You’d be completing a lengthy program that will land you with an enormous amount of student debt for positions where you wouldn’t be practicing medicine anyway. I’d urge you to consider what your interests truly are and whether a DVM is necessary for your goals.

 

[deleted1125995]

Why do you need a DVM if this is your goal?

This is a serious question. You’d be completing a lengthy program that will land you with an enormous amount of student debt for positions where you wouldn’t be practicing medicine anyway. I’d urge you to consider what your interests truly are and whether a DVM is necessary for your goals.

This has been the most significant consideration I've incurred over the past few years. Here's some context:

I've always wanted to be a clinician (not for humans though): I love working with my hands and love the process of watching an ill animal get better. I also understand that becoming a veterinarian is somewhat of a financial sacrifice: lots of time and lots of money, accompanied by not-great compensation and lots of work. However, I find it to be a very noble profession, I'm don't feel great about the sacrifice though.

I figured that a dual degree may allow me to explore other related avenues that make more financial sense. But yes, maybe vet school isn't necessarily the correct path. I'm still figuring it out. Maybe one option is practicing for a few years and then attempting to transition to an administrative role. Another aspiration I have is to create an animal-focused company.

Luckily I've set myself up nicely where I can do a DVM or an MBA (or maybe both). I have an undergrad degree in economics and a master's in bioengineering. Over the past year, I've worked as an assistant at a veterinary hospital, forgoing a decent salary that comes with a master's degree. However, I'm 29 now and don't have time or money to waste (I've already wasted a lot of that throughout my 20's). I just know that deep down helping animals, by becoming a veterinarian, feels like a satisfying endeavor, albeit not really financially responsible.

My application for vet school is submitted and I'm currently studying for the GMAT, but I'm at a crossroads in my life right now.

 

[supershorty]

This has been the most significant consideration I've incurred over the past few years. Here's some context:

I've always wanted to be a clinician (not for humans though): I love working with my hands and love the process of watching an ill animal get better. I also understand that becoming a veterinarian is somewhat of a financial sacrifice: lots of time and lots of money, accompanied by not-great compensation and lots of work. However, I find it to be a very noble profession, I'm don't feel great about the sacrifice though.

I figured that a dual degree may allow me to explore other related avenues that make more financial sense. But yes, maybe vet school isn't necessarily the correct path. I'm still figuring it out. Maybe one option is practicing for a few years and then attempting to transition to an administrative role. Another aspiration I have is to create an animal-focused company.

Luckily I've set myself up nicely where I can do a DVM or an MBA (or maybe both). I have an undergrad degree in economics and a master's in bioengineering. Over the past year, I've worked as an assistant at a veterinary hospital, forgoing a decent salary that comes with a master's degree. However, I'm 29 now and don't have time or money to waste (I've already wasted a lot of that throughout my 20's). I just know that deep down helping animals, by becoming a veterinarian, feels like a satisfying endeavor, albeit not really financially responsible.

My application for vet school is submitted and I'm currently studying for the GMAT, but I'm at a crossroads in my life right now.

I'm going to be really blunt with you: if you can see yourself doing anything else that isn't practicing veterinary medicine in some capacity (which includes the non-clinical aspects of it, like government or research), and finding fulfillment in that, you really should not go for a DVM. The financial aspect of it is ridiculous and the amount of debt that you'll take on is going to affect your life for a very, very long time. The bolded statements make me feel like a DVM is not the best path for you to do what you want with your career.

There are other ways that you can help animals without driving yourself into crippling debt. Volunteering, for example, whether that's at a shelter, within a hospital, is a great way to do so.

Similarly, you can have a career devoted to helping animals (and people) without a DVM. I'll use an example that's local to me - this company is founded by someone who does not have a DVM. They're making cancer immunotherapies that are currently in clinical trials at multiple university veterinary oncology services now. Please don't think that to help animals, you need a DVM.

I'm going to tag some of the vets who are already done and living with paying back their loans, and maybe some of them will have time to comment, but from what you've said here so far, I strongly encourage you to do some deep soul-searching about whether your desire to help animals is worth as much as half a million dollars to you, and if you truly need that degree and those years of your life (not just in school, but the ones where you're living like a student afterward to pay off your loans) in order to do what you want to do. Because from what you've said here so far, I'm not at all sure that you do, and think you could be both quite successful and possibly happier long-term if you pursued something adjacent to it (be that biomechanical research, administration, etc.).

Maybe @DVMDream, @dyachei, @KCgophervet, @battie, @SkiOtter, @that redhead, @Barkley13, @WildZoo, @SportPonies, and others are willing to comment.

 

[dyachei]

If you don't feel great about the sacrifice, don't do it. Look, I paid ahead on my loans and refinanced to better rates. I was still paying off my loans for 9 years. I had to put a lot of my life on hold to do it. I mean, I started a family at 37 because I wanted to be financially solvent before bringing a child into my life. Are you prepared for a minimum of roughly 10 years of paying back loans AFTER another 4 years of education loans?

 

[battie]

@JahRastaPark I graduated in 2021 with somewhere around 170-180k in debt OOS from Illinois. My dead great-grandfather paid for my first year tuition through an education trust, but then I had to repeat first year. Then I ended up inheriting my sister's life insurance policy after she died during second year. So my loans were cost of living first year 1.0, tuition and COL first year 2.0, and tuition and COL second year. I used my sister's life insurance money to pay for third year, fourth year, and then my highest interest loans after that. I paid off all the interest through COVID that had accrued. So I'm sitting at 121k ish.

My interest per month starting Sept 1 will be $550 per month. So I'm going to put $1000/month towards student loans; I've requested an extra shift per month of ER to help pay for that new bill.

Even at 121k, I would have been screwed the last few months and had to have made some hard decisions. Everything happened in this order starting April:
1. We put a deposit down to remodel our kitchen (~10k)
2. My transmission died in my 2006 Ford escape; approx $4800 to fix (parents had a spare car they "sold" me)
3. My Pittie blew her left ACL (the same evening of the Ford dying); approx $2500 (between professional discount and employee discount)
4. The heating unit in our heater died; $300 because part was under warranty but not the labor (it was still snowing)
5. We got a squirrel infestation; $1600
6. The kitchen remodel itself with complications that has spanned the last 13 weeks; additional $55k
7. The Pittie blew her right ACL; approx $2500

This has all happened while our monthly bills are approximately 3700-4100. That would have all been impossible to do with my $1000/month student loan bill I'll have. And it is cheaper at this point for me to aggressively pay it off rather than save for the tax bomb at the end. I'm by far the bread winner; my husband's take home is $100/shift.

You absolutely never know what's going to happen. You don't know if you'll have to repeat a year (additional 55-65k in tuition alone). You don't know if you'll finish the program. And you don't know if you're going to have a ****-tacular 13 weeks with one thing after another. I also was in a near miss accident with the guy running the red light, swerving last minute, and me *not* going to the hospital and being unable to work to support my husband and one year old.

So if you could do what you want to do without getting the DVM, do it. I don't regret my job or degree; but I'm fully aware I'm super fortunate that I basically got a lot of money from a couple of dead people. 🤷🏼‍♀️

/Soapbox

 

[that redhead]

Hello,

Has anyone considered or completed an MBA with a vet degree?

I am specifically looking at the program offered through Penn. I understand that this program is NOT geared toward running a practice. If I were to complete the program, I would be more interested in a finance position for veterinary medical devices or pharmaceuticals, life-science venture capital, or hospital administration.

Is anyone else considering this particular dual-degree track? Has anyone gone on to do it? Is there much of a market for VMD/MBA or DVM/MBA degree holders, and what are some paths you could take with it? What salary could one expect with these types of jobs?

Thank you in advance!

I think MBAs are becoming the new bachelor’s degree - not much value to them in the job market anymore. Not to say they’re completely worthless - they can be a way to pursue further, more formal education on business for a specific circumstance, etc. But getting one to tack on to an advanced degree that is pretty unrelated in most aspects (aside from the obvious practice ownership) doesn’t make a lot of sense to me. I can see where your niche interests could make it somewhat worth it, but at that point you’re getting the DVM to lad your business’s look, and that’s a crap ton of money, time and tears for that purpose alone. If you’re interested in those vet-adjacent fields, maybe look for a partner or consultant to work with.

The costs of these MBA programs are generally tailored toward their perceived “prestige” and the snoots don’t think any MBA except those from the fanciest programs are worth anything. So you’re forced to try to get into a fancy, costly program to impress some fussy elites who don’t even value the degree that much anyway. Or you can go to a cheaper but lesser known program and fall short in the networking category because all the cool MBAers go to Harvard or whatever.

I’d pick one path for now and circle back later to see if you really need the other degree. I had $249k of purely tuition at graduation (my parents paid my living expenses) that I paid off in 6 years because I put my entire monthly paycheck toward them while my husband covered our bills. It’s not a trivial matter to just take out more loans.

 

[deleted1125995]

I'm going to be really blunt with you: if you can see yourself doing anything else that isn't practicing veterinary medicine in some capacity (which includes the non-clinical aspects of it, like government or research), and finding fulfillment in that, you really should not go for a DVM. The financial aspect of it is ridiculous and the amount of debt that you'll take on is going to affect your life for a very, very long time. The bolded statements make me feel like a DVM is not the best path for you to do what you want with your career.

There are other ways that you can help animals without driving yourself into crippling debt. Volunteering, for example, whether that's at a shelter, within a hospital, is a great way to do so.

Similarly, you can have a career devoted to helping animals (and people) without a DVM. I'll use an example that's local to me - this company is founded by someone who does not have a DVM. They're making cancer immunotherapies that are currently in clinical trials at multiple university veterinary oncology services now. Please don't think that to help animals, you need a DVM.

I'm going to tag some of the vets who are already done and living with paying back their loans, and maybe some of them will have time to comment, but from what you've said here so far, I strongly encourage you to do some deep soul-searching about whether your desire to help animals is worth as much as half a million dollars to you, and if you truly need that degree and those years of your life (not just in school, but the ones where you're living like a student afterward to pay off your loans) in order to do what you want to do. Because from what you've said here so far, I'm not at all sure that you do, and think you could be both quite successful and possibly happier long-term if you pursued something adjacent to it (be that biomechanical research, administration, etc.).

Maybe @DVMDream, @dyachei, @KCgophervet, @battie, @SkiOtter, @that redhead, @Barkley13, @WildZoo, @SportPonies, and others are willing to comment.

Sorry for the delayed response. Thank you so much for taking the time and providing this insight.

Yes, this has been the question that has been looming over me for a long time: does the fulfillment of helping animals outweigh the financial burden of becoming a veterinarian?

For me, a fulfilling career is something that is meaningful (i.e. helping animals), I'm passionate about, and I can be very involved and work autonomously. Attending vet school and starting an animal-centric company of some sort is my ideal career/life. Becoming a veterinarian would give me knowledge of the profession, meaning, experience, confidence, and security.

However, I'm still pretty lost. As of now, I don't feel at all confident about starting a business, nor would I know what type of company I would start if asked today. Maybe, I'm just romanticizing too much about that idea.

I think the best thing for me right now is to keep doing my research and gaining info on all possibilities I can. That's why this thread is amazing, I really appreciate your perspective and involving others in the conversation

 

[deleted1125995]

I think MBAs are becoming the new bachelor’s degree - not much value to them in the job market anymore. Not to say they’re completely worthless - they can be a way to pursue further, more formal education on business for a specific circumstance, etc. But getting one to tack on to an advanced degree that is pretty unrelated in most aspects (aside from the obvious practice ownership) doesn’t make a lot of sense to me. I can see where your niche interests could make it somewhat worth it, but at that point you’re getting the DVM to lad your business’s look, and that’s a crap ton of money, time and tears for that purpose alone. If you’re interested in those vet-adjacent fields, maybe look for a partner or consultant to work with.

The costs of these MBA programs are generally tailored toward their perceived “prestige” and the snoots don’t think any MBA except those from the fanciest programs are worth anything. So you’re forced to try to get into a fancy, costly program to impress some fussy elites who don’t even value the degree that much anyway. Or you can go to a cheaper but lesser known program and fall short in the networking category because all the cool MBAers go to Harvard or whatever.

I’d pick one path for now and circle back later to see if you really need the other degree. I had $249k of purely tuition at graduation (my parents paid my living expenses) that I paid off in 6 years because I put my entire monthly paycheck toward them while my husband covered our bills. It’s not a trivial matter to just take out more loans.

Thank you for sharing and for your perspective! I hadn't considered that view.

 

[deleted1125995]

@JahRastaPark I graduated in 2021 with somewhere around 170-180k in debt OOS from Illinois. My dead great-grandfather paid for my first year tuition through an education trust, but then I had to repeat first year. Then I ended up inheriting my sister's life insurance policy after she died during second year. So my loans were cost of living first year 1.0, tuition and COL first year 2.0, and tuition and COL second year. I used my sister's life insurance money to pay for third year, fourth year, and then my highest interest loans after that. I paid off all the interest through COVID that had accrued. So I'm sitting at 121k ish.

My interest per month starting Sept 1 will be $550 per month. So I'm going to put $1000/month towards student loans; I've requested an extra shift per month of ER to help pay for that new bill.

Even at 121k, I would have been screwed the last few months and had to have made some hard decisions. Everything happened in this order starting April:
1. We put a deposit down to remodel our kitchen (~10k)
2. My transmission died in my 2006 Ford escape; approx $4800 to fix (parents had a spare car they "sold" me)
3. My Pittie blew her left ACL (the same evening of the Ford dying); approx $2500 (between professional discount and employee discount)
4. The heating unit in our heater died; $300 because part was under warranty but not the labor (it was still snowing)
5. We got a squirrel infestation; $1600
6. The kitchen remodel itself with complications that has spanned the last 13 weeks; additional $55k
7. The Pittie blew her right ACL; approx $2500

This has all happened while our monthly bills are approximately 3700-4100. That would have all been impossible to do with my $1000/month student loan bill I'll have. And it is cheaper at this point for me to aggressively pay it off rather than save for the tax bomb at the end. I'm by far the bread winner; my husband's take home is $100/shift.

You absolutely never know what's going to happen. You don't know if you'll have to repeat a year (additional 55-65k in tuition alone). You don't know if you'll finish the program. And you don't know if you're going to have a ****-tacular 13 weeks with one thing after another. I also was in a near miss accident with the guy running the red light, swerving last minute, and me *not* going to the hospital and being unable to work to support my husband and one year old.

So if you could do what you want to do without getting the DVM, do it. I don't regret my job or degree; but I'm fully aware I'm super fortunate that I basically got a lot of money from a couple of dead people. 🤷🏼‍♀️

/Soapbox

I really appreciate your detailed description of your situation! That really helps me take better aspect of my own situation.

 

[runningwithriley]

This has been the most significant consideration I've incurred over the past few years. Here's some context:

I've always wanted to be a clinician (not for humans though): I love working with my hands and love the process of watching an ill animal get better. I also understand that becoming a veterinarian is somewhat of a financial sacrifice: lots of time and lots of money, accompanied by not-great compensation and lots of work. However, I find it to be a very noble profession, I'm don't feel great about the sacrifice though.

I figured that a dual degree may allow me to explore other related avenues that make more financial sense. But yes, maybe vet school isn't necessarily the correct path. I'm still figuring it out. Maybe one option is practicing for a few years and then attempting to transition to an administrative role. Another aspiration I have is to create an animal-focused company.

Luckily I've set myself up nicely where I can do a DVM or an MBA (or maybe both). I have an undergrad degree in economics and a master's in bioengineering. Over the past year, I've worked as an assistant at a veterinary hospital, forgoing a decent salary that comes with a master's degree. However, I'm 29 now and don't have time or money to waste (I've already wasted a lot of that throughout my 20's). I just know that deep down helping animals, by becoming a veterinarian, feels like a satisfying endeavor, albeit not really financially responsible.

My application for vet school is submitted and I'm currently studying for the GMAT, but I'm at a crossroads in my life right now.

I have a slightly different perspective. If you want to own/run a practice or be involved in a business that involves vet med, depending on what state you live in a veterinarian is required. It does not necessarily have to be you, but you would need to involve a partner if not. I actually tried to get into an animal/ vet med business and in the end decided Vet School was the right path for me.

An MBA from a good school and Penn is one, usually has financial value- not if you are going to be a clinician but if you were to get a finance job. An MBA from a not so great school is usually not worth the paper it is printed on.

Vet med is a complete career change for me. I think it is normal to question any path in life. Life is definitely full of twists and turns.

 

[battie]

I really appreciate your detailed description of your situation! That really helps me take better aspect of my own situation.

Just to add, my husband totalled his car last night. 😅

 

[runningwithriley]

Just to add, my husband totalled his car last night. 😅

Is he ok?

 

[battie]

Is he ok?

Physically, yes. Mentally/emotionally, no one is 😅

 

[runningwithriley]

Physically, yes. Mentally/emotionally, no one is 😅

Glad you guys are at least physically ok. Hopefully everyone mends mentally/emotionally as soon as possible.

 

[deleted1125995]

I have a slightly different perspective. If you want to own/run a practice or be involved in a business that involves vet med, depending on what state you live in a veterinarian is required. It does not necessarily have to be you, but you would need to involve a partner if not. I actually tried to get into an animal/ vet med business and in the end decided Vet School was the right path for me.

An MBA from a good school and Penn is one, usually has financial value- not if you are going to be a clinician but if you were to get a finance job. An MBA from a not so great school is usually not worth the paper it is printed on.

Vet med is a complete career change for me. I think it is normal to question any path in life. Life is definitely full of twists and turns.

Thanks for the information! Definitely something to consider. I'm not sure if running a practice is in the cards for me right now, but I don't want to rule it out. I would like to get more experience however, to see exactly what practice management entails.

 

[deleted1125995]

Just to add, my husband totalled his car last night. 😅

Oh no, I'm sorry to hear that. I hope everybody is okay.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Sorry for the delayed response. Thank you so much for taking the time and providing this insight.

Yes, this has been the question that has been looming over me for a long time: does the fulfillment of helping animals outweigh the financial burden of becoming a veterinarian?

For me, a fulfilling career is something that is meaningful (i.e. helping animals), I'm passionate about, and I can be very involved and work autonomously. Attending vet school and starting an animal-centric company of some sort is my ideal career/life. Becoming a veterinarian would give me knowledge of the profession, meaning, experience, confidence, and security.

However, I'm still pretty lost. As of now, I don't feel at all confident about starting a business, nor would I know what type of company I would start if asked today. Maybe, I'm just romanticizing too much about that idea.

I think the best thing for me right now is to keep doing my research and gaining info on all possibilities I can. That's why this thread is amazing, I really appreciate your perspective and involving others in the conversation

Because I like to play devil's advocate.....

A fulfilling career does not have to have some deep-seated meaning in the career itself. It does not even have to be your number one "passion". Heck, my biggest passion is reading and literature....but I knew that a career in that area would be extremely difficult.

A fulfilling career (to me at least) is one that provides you with 1)enough financial stability and 2)work-life balance so that you can put money and energy into all the other parts of your life outside of work. In my opinion, it is those things that truly have "meaning" compared to a job. My hobbies, my friends, my experiences, my travels, all of that is SO much more important to me than my work. That is where I get my "meaning". Tl;dr - Your career is there to (eventually of course, depending on program and field) provide you support so that you can live the life you want to live.

Of course, I'm not suggesting to go work a job you hate just for the stability and money. You want to, of course, at least enjoy your work and have it tick those boxes. But there are many, many other ways to find "meaning" in life that do not also entail putting yourself in a difficult financial position.

 

[deleted1125995]

Because I like to play devil's advocate.....

A fulfilling career does not have to have some deep-seated meaning in the career itself. It does not even have to be your number one "passion". Heck, my biggest passion is reading and literature....but I knew that a career in that area would be extremely difficult.

A fulfilling career (to me at least) is one that provides you with 1)enough financial stability and 2)work-life balance so that you can put money and energy into all the other parts of your life outside of work. In my opinion, it is those things that truly have "meaning" compared to a job. My hobbies, my friends, my experiences, my travels, all of that is SO much more important to me than my work. That is where I get my "meaning". Tl;dr - Your career is there to (eventually of course, depending on program and field) provide you support so that you can live the life you want to live.

Of course, I'm not suggesting to go work a job you hate just for the stability and money. You want to, of course, at least enjoy your work and have it tick those boxes. But there are many, many other ways to find "meaning" in life that do not also entail putting yourself in a difficult financial position.

Thanks, this is great advice! Perhaps I need to do some deep digging.