Welp, see ya later medical school

[PL198]

This would make sense except owning your own clinic is near impossible with the convoluted regulations from obamacare. So your whole hypothetical falls apart.

-rolls up sleeves-

It's not impossible. It's certainly more difficult than the past, but it's not like there's only two choices where it's A) own your own clinic B) work for a hospital . There's something called having partners, which is still a private practice. I'm not saying it's easy to do private practice and honestly I think it generally takes an understanding of business that the average medical student doesn't even dream of, but saying near impossible is pretty far off.

I don't understand why pre-meds always are on the extremes of everything. Like either you're going to be a specialist and make billions of dollars and have 10 million dollars in your retirement by the time you're 65, or it's nearly impossible to operate a private practice. In life, nearly everything is in the gray, not the black and white of yes or no. It's silly to assume that someone who is 32 years old and a licensed physician is going to live like a 22 yr old that got a 50k /yr paying job. Prolonged gratitude is good, but too long and you lose your mind. At some point, you have to be able to bear the fruits of your labor. If that's 5 years after you're done with residency, then honestly I feel like you'd have a pretty terrible life. That means you can't live financially better than a 22 yr old until you are 37, even though you're a doctor. Not gonna happen, unless you enjoy torturing yourself for fun.

-sleeves left rolled up

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[coldpheet]

there is definitely a glass ceiling. He will also graduate with college debt,

She*
there is no glass ceiling for male engineers, just ceiling

your salary estimates are too generous. soils the whole thing

 

[Internationalinterest]

This is not forever - just for four years. I know many doctors that have suggested that living like a resident for a few years is a good idea in order to pay off debt. However, if you feel that this is unreasonable, you can lengthen the time spent paying off that debt a few more years in order to increase the money you are spending on lifestyle.

 

[coldpheet]

Read my thing. I am not -$100k in loans right now. I am +$30k.

 

[Internationalinterest]

-rolls up sleeves-

That means you can't live financially better than a 22 yr old until you are 37, even though you're a doctor. Not gonna happen, unless you enjoy torturing yourself for fun.

-sleeves left rolled up

I totally agree, but at the same time many seem to think that the life of a doctor is complete poverty, which it is not. I believe that becoming a doctor has many merits. Among them: Nearly assured success after entering medical school (work hard and you have it made), meritocracy, very livable salary, secured employment for the rest of your life, fulfilling job (taking care of people can sometimes suck tho i agree.), and also prestige.

I think these are the qualities that make it attractive to premeds, and I think a decent amount of these qualities are true.

 

[Internationalinterest]

She*
there is no glass ceiling for male engineers, just ceiling

your salary estimates are too generous. soils the whole thing

Salary estimates for what? Engineer or Doctor? Do you have any suggestions to replace?

Also after looking up the term glass ceiling, I agree that I misused the term. You learn something new every day.

 

[PL198]

This is not forever - just for four years. I know many doctors that have suggested that living like a resident for a few years is a good idea in order to pay off debt. However, if you feel that this is unreasonable, you can lengthen the time spent paying off that debt a few more years in order to increase the money you are spending on lifestyle.

There's a difference in the thought of "living like a resident" but still enjoying some splurging, due to the fact that you have worked your a*ss off for the past 12 years of your life to get to this point, vs living on 30k a year. I don't think most pre-meds understand and think it's just like a fun little game where everyone is happy and cheerful and needs no reminders about the benefits of their situation. I would bet anything those docs meant just to stay generally frugal, don't go out and buy a new house, new car, new boat, clothes, etc etc vs actually living on 30k a year, which might not even be possible in some areas unless you want to eat ramen as a physician. However you're certainly going to have to reward yourself somehow in a fairly significant way or you'll lose your mind. The journey is incredibly hard and demanding, and undergrad is by far the easiest part.

I totally agree, but at the same time many seem to think that the life of a doctor is complete poverty, which it is not. I believe that becoming a doctor has many merits. Among them: Nearly assured success after entering medical school (work hard and you have it made), meritocracy, very livable salary, secured employment for the rest of your life, fulfilling job (taking care of people can sometimes suck tho i agree.), and also prestige.

I think these are the qualities that make it attractive to premeds, and I think a decent amount of these qualities are true.

I don't see how that references my post. No one thinks a doctor is the life of complete poverty, except pre-meds who can delude themselves into living like a 22 yr old teacher while being a fully-fledged practicing physician and 15 yrs older. The argument isn't about the merits. It's that you have to be realistic with these merits or you will never get an applicable appraisal of where you stand or a viable plan for your future..

 

[Internationalinterest]

What do you think is a reasonable livable salary ignoring taxes and debt? Just cold hard cash per year.

 

[PL198]

What do you think is a reasonable livable salary ignoring taxes and debt? Just cold hard cash per year.

For who? Again we're being reasonable, so what is reasonable for a doctor is different than reasonable for a teacher, fresh out of school. Again, these calculations are so difficult to make because of things like taxes and debt. With someone's relative position on the food chain, there are difference in quality of life expectations. This is completely normal and totally acceptable. You just make it sound like there are living expenses and then debt and contributions to retirement. I can name 10 things not encompassed by those 3. Rainy day fund for instance, or a new(to you, not necessarily brand new) car. It's unlikely your car is going to make it through medical school and residency and even into your attending days. There is going to be regional variance. If I'm living in LA or anywhere near, that's probably gonna cost me way more on average than living in Michigan.

If we're talking cold hard cash, then that would be including taxes, unless you plan to operate some pill dispensary in the back of a truck. Gross figures mean very little.

You shouldn't be thinking of this in terms of " if I save X amount and pay off Y amount on my loans I'll be A-OK" What you should be thinking is : " If I go to a medical school that isn't overly expensive, and land a job that pays me right around the average for a physician, and manage my money acceptably, I will be in a good place financially for the rest of my life." You're simply way too early in your career to be assigning numerical values to anything, as all of this stuff is constantly changing, so you're just wasting your time for more inaccuracy. Managing your money acceptably is much different than living on 30k a year. Maybe you'll be able to do it and I'm wrong, but you'd be in the HUGE minority. Just go to a mid-priced school, get a mid-paying job, don't buy a new house and new car immediately after finishing residency ( honestly a car is probably fine depending on its cost, just saying don't go on a huge spree), and you will be in a very good spot financially. Anything more(loan forgiveness, scholarships, high paying job) is icing on the cake and simply way too difficult to accurately calculate.

 

[coldpheet]

Salary estimates for what? Engineer or Doctor? Do you have any suggestions to replace?

I appreciate you taking the time to response and offering a different point of view. However, please refer to the original post where I estimate my salary to be less than $250,000. I sure would like to strike it rich, but not everyone can open cash only mohs practices. Half of us will end up in a primary care specialty. Ain't nobody making $400,000. Specialize within IM and you can have a much higher salary. But that also comes with years lost of potential income.

Replace physician's salary with $250,000, please.

 

[Internationalinterest]

OK I think I totally agree with everything you are saying. I was just talking about the cash because I was trying to extrapolate from that how long it would take to pay off debts. I agree that it is too early in the game for me to even think about trying to assign cash values to anything, but I think we have all seen articles where they compare the amount earned by a doctor to that of a teacher, and that is just not true. And I agree that a PC doctor is probably in far worse shape when it comes to money.

 

[amad01]

And we all learn not to apply to schools that we wouldn't realistically attend.... an MSAR would've saved a lot of headache

The first thing I did with my school list is cross off every school that would put me in ridiculous debt and make me feel hopeless...

 

[coldpheet]

And we all learn not to apply to schools that we wouldn't realistically attend.... an MSAR would've saved a lot of headache

The first thing I did with my school list is cross off every school that would put me in ridiculous debt and make me feel hopeless...

unless you're from TX, CA, or NY that's a short list! state school or bust, is that right?

public schools: https://services.aamc.org/tsfreports/report.cfm?select_control=PUB&year_of_study=2014

private schools: https://services.aamc.org/tsfreports/report.cfm?select_control=PRI&year_of_study=2014

 

[coldpheet]

And we all learn not to apply to schools that we wouldn't realistically attend.... an MSAR would've saved a lot of headache

The first thing I did with my school list is cross off every school that would put me in ridiculous debt and make me feel hopeless...

I'm genuinely interested in your list. Do you mind sharing?

 

[Silent Cool]

I was accepted this cycle c/o 2018. 3.6 gpa, 37 MCAT, BS (biomed E) from Ivy league school. California resident. Accepted at a private school in Boston (only school I got into).

This school is about $85k/yr and I did not receive any financial aid. No aid from family or friends either. With unsubsidized loans at 5.4% and 6.4% interest, I'm looking at $450k in debt by the time I finish a residency (4 yrs).

At a 10 yr repayment period, I would pay 40% of my month salary (assuming $250k/yr salary...probably a generous estimate ) in loan repayment with a total repayment of $560k. I could pay back on an IBR plan and only pay about 15% of my salary, but I would likely pay this off for the rest of my career and total repayment would be $750k.

This just doesn't make sense financially. Being a physician is really the only thing I would like to do, but I don't want to be an indentured servant to do it. Even the best career would turn sour if I feel like I am forced to do it because of suffocating debt.

I'm going to drop my offer. Good luck to whoever is on the waiting list licking their chops. I figure with my degree and undergrad school I can get an interesting job and make a decent salary and not kill myself in the process. I really admire you SDNers who have the guts to follow your dreams, debt and all.

You should totally go into family medicine or pediatrics.

Seriously, though, as an allopathic student you shouldn't have too much trouble matching high quality IM programs or into other higher paying specialties if your Step 1 is 220+.

good luck.

 

[mrh125]

I love this thread because I may be in a similar scenario in about a year. What is a prospective medical school student at an OOS school like University of Illinois is astronomically high (if you factor in living costs you're looking at 100k per year) to do? It's a good MD school, but how can one possibly recover from that? I don't think the school even offers much financial aid to OOS students.

 

[medschoolmyname]

kinda funny how OP's name is coldpheet and that the account was made only a few days ago and that your post is literally an account of you getting cold feet over the med school process

 

[amad01]

unless you're from TX, CA, or NY that's a short list! state school or bust, is that right?

public schools: https://services.aamc.org/tsfreports/report.cfm?select_control=PUB&year_of_study=2014

private schools: https://services.aamc.org/tsfreports/report.cfm?select_control=PRI&year_of_study=2014

I'm genuinely interested in your list. Do you mind sharing?

Albert Einstein
Baylor
Creighton
UCLA
Loyola
MCW
Mnt Sinai
NYMC
Northwestern
Rosalind Frank
St Louis
Ohio St
Miami
AZ Tucson
Cincinnati
Michigan
Rochester

Wisconsin
Vanderbilt
Wake Forest
All Texas Schools in TMDSAS


None of my schools are state schools.... All are OOS and tuition is under 50k, except Creighton who seem generous with fin aid and is right on the border at 50,775 . Also, the Ohio schools offer resident tuition after first year... other schools do this too if you research it out... I would love to apply to some more expensive schools such as temple, boston, tulane, vermont, oregon, albany, jefferson, Colorado, W virg, Georgetown, but I'm afraid of debt like you. I know that worst case scenario I will take out 200k in loans (I have a wife who will work full-time and ~20-30k in savings so living expenses will not need to be borrowed). I am going into this knowing that if I get any acceptance I will be able to commit because I already looked at it financially. You seem so together with everything and it makes no sense how/why you didn't see the dreadful numbers on the front end rather than the back end....

 

[coldpheet]

Albert Einstein
Baylor
Creighton
UCLA
Loyola
MCW
Mnt Sinai
NYMC
Northwestern
Rosalind Frank
St Louis
Ohio St
Miami
AZ Tucson
Cincinnati
Michigan
Rochester

Wisconsin
Vanderbilt
Wake Forest
All Texas Schools in TMDSAS


None of my schools are state schools.... All are OOS and tuition is under 50k, except Creighton who seem generous with fin aid and is right on the border at 50,775 . Also, the Ohio schools offer resident tuition after first year... other schools do this too if you research it out... I would love to apply to some more expensive schools such as temple, boston, tulane, vermont, oregon, albany, jefferson, Colorado, W virg, Georgetown, but I'm afraid of debt like you. I know that worst case scenario I will take out 200k in loans (I have a wife who will work full-time and ~20-30k in savings so living expenses will not need to be borrowed). I am going into this knowing that if I get any acceptance I will be able to commit because I already looked at it financially. You seem so together with everything and it makes no sense how/why you didn't see the dreadful numbers on the front end rather than the back end....

interesting. I figured that the tuition difference between the cheap private schools vs. expensive private schools is at most $10,000 a year. Factor in difference in living expenses and travel costs and attending a cheaper tuition school could be just as expensive as the more expensive schools. Where did you draw the line? $50,000 tuition? What's an extra $20,000 on top of $200,000? The differences between OOS tuition wasn't great enough for me to strike schools from my list, especially since I'll be taking out the full COA. Of course, I got accepted to the most expensive school in the lower 48, without aid. Tufts could have given me a $10k grant and now I'm on par with your cheapest schools. Crazy deal.

 

[coldpheet]

I appreciate your argument. I would say: maybe one of the schools you didn't apply to would find you a compelling applicant and give you money, making it a cheaper option than everything else. Then again, you could end up like me and get accepted to only one very expensive school, not get any money, and not be able to back out with the whole reapply stigma.

IN SUM, in my opinion tuition differences for OOS students aren't significant enough to outweigh other factors, namely location, admissions numbers, mission, etc. Take St. Louis/Creighton vs. UCLA/Northwestern. These schools are way too different to be basing a big part of your criteria on (what may end up being an insignificant total) savings.

Knowing what I know now, I still wouldn't advise students to strike schools from their list based on cost alone. Wait until you are accepted and financial aid packages come out and hope you have more than one option.

 

[amad01]

interesting. I figured that the tuition difference between the cheap private schools vs. expensive private schools is at most $10,000 a year. Factor in difference in living expenses and travel costs and attending a cheaper tuition school could be just as expensive as the more expensive schools. Where did you draw the line? $50,000 tuition? What's an extra $20,000 on top of $200,000? The differences between OOS tuition wasn't great enough for me to strike schools from my list, especially since I'll be taking out the full COA. Of course, I got accepted to the most expensive school in the lower 48, without aid. Tufts could have given me a $10k grant and now I'm on par with your cheapest schools. Crazy deal.

You're absolutely right 20k more wouldn't be so bad but the way I see it is why? I'm not necessarily "in love" with any school I just want to become a doctor and not drown more than I have to in the process. ... I did basically draw the line at 50,000... although living in NY vs midwest would be way different, but hopefully the spouse income would be higher to balance it out somewhat... I am approaching it expecting to get nothing in grants or scholarships or anything. The thought of over 200k compounding just makes me sick. It seems so wrong that it costs so much to become a doctor, yet they will keep raising prices. I can't imagine your situation and if 450k+ is realistic, I wouldn't step foot in that school myself if I were you.

 

[coldpheet]

I can't imagine your situation and if 450k+ is realistic, I wouldn't step foot in that school myself if I were you.

I hear ya, brozymandias

 

[amad01]

I appreciate your argument. I would say: maybe one of the schools you didn't apply to would find you a compelling applicant and give you money, making it a cheaper option than everything else. Then again, you could end up like me and get accepted to only one very expensive school, not get any money, and not be able to back out with the whole reapply stigma.

IN SUM, in my opinion tuition differences for OOS students aren't significant enough to outweigh other factors, namely location, admissions numbers, mission, etc. Take St. Louis/Creighton vs. UCLA/Northwestern. These schools are way too different to be basing a big part of your criteria on (what may end up being an insignificant total) savings.

Knowing what I know now, I still wouldn't advise students to strike schools from their list based on cost alone. Wait until you are accepted and financial aid packages come out and hope you have more than one option.

There is always room for maybes and what ifs... I have good but not phenomenal stats and don't expect a dime from anyone. I guess I just have a realistic approach. I made a spread sheet for every school and included cost, oos acceptance %, # seats, # applicants, odds if lotto system, etc and all this went into my list as well. Location and mission are minimal factors to me, except I would be a little scared of Chicago. My thoughts are there are plenty of quality schools that won't drown you in debt that can offer anything that the expensive schools will. I have 29 schools on my list..... Basically my biggest fear is being in your exact situation.

 

[amad01]

I appreciate your argument. I would say: maybe one of the schools you didn't apply to would find you a compelling applicant and give you money, making it a cheaper option than everything else.

Wait until you are accepted and financial aid packages come out and hope you have more than one option.

Your situation is a prime example of why you shouldn't do this. Unless you have full-tuition merit type stats 4.0/40+, you should only apply to schools you for sure would attend even if offered nothing.

 

[Hemorrage]

How many people work this hard and get the stats that OP had just to suddenly drop an offer from one of the schools in boston? Tufts, BU and Harvard are all very difficult to get into and fairly prestigious institutions. OP is either a troll or a complete fool for not looking at the finances regarding medical school before applying

 

[masaraksh]

Please be joking. You need soft skills in medicine more than you do in many other professions, unless you're doing gas or rads.

You forgot path. And you need soft skills te most in Uro or Gyn, am I right?

 

[masaraksh]

kinda funny how OP's name is coldpheet and that the account was made only a few days ago and that your post is literally an account of you getting cold feet over the med school process

Yes. This is kinda funny. I am laughing so hard right now.

 

[masaraksh]

How many people work this hard and get the stats that OP had just to suddenly drop an offer from one of the schools in boston? Tufts, BU and Harvard are all very difficult to get into and fairly prestigious institutions. OP is either a troll or a complete fool for not looking at the finances regarding medical school before applying

Dislike.

 

[RogueUnicorn]

How many people work this hard and get the stats that OP had just to suddenly drop an offer from one of the schools in boston? Tufts, BU and Harvard are all very difficult to get into and fairly prestigious institutions. OP is either a troll or a complete fool for not looking at the finances regarding medical school before applying

if my only acceptance meant that much debt i'd drop it like it's fcking hot

why is this thread still going on?

 

[WhippleWhileWeWork]

why is this thread still going on?

Same.

 

[circulus vitios]

You forgot path. And you need soft skills te most in Uro or Gyn, am I right?

You don't need soft skills for path, just soft hands and a deep throat because that's the only way you're getting a job.

 

[Fabio Lanzoni]

None of my schools are state schools.... All are OOS and tuition is under 50k, except Creighton who seem generous with fin aid and is right on the border at 50,775 . Also, the Ohio schools offer resident tuition after first year... other schools do this too if you research it out... I would love to apply to some more expensive schools such as temple, boston, tulane, vermont, oregon, albany, jefferson, Colorado, W virg, Georgetown, but I'm afraid of debt like you. I know that worst case scenario I will take out 200k in loans (I have a wife who will work full-time and ~20-30k in savings so living expenses will not need to be borrowed). I am going into this knowing that if I get any acceptance I will be able to commit because I already looked at it financially. You seem so together with everything and it makes no sense how/why you didn't see the dreadful numbers on the front end rather than the back end....

Just FYI, Creighton is not generous with financial aid (and their tuition this year is 53K). And @coldpheet is right, you never know what tuition will look like until you get that financial aid letter. I had very surprising financial aid packages that made my expensive schools very cheap and my "cheap" schools not so cheap in the end.

 

[coldpheet]

why is this thread still going on?

Exhibit A:

(New account, numbered school names to keep anonymous).
School 1 -

Pros :

- Would come out of this school with anywhere from 0 - 80k debt.
Full tuition scholarship (50k x 4yrs = 200k)
Parents can help with living expenses (20k/yr)

- Prefer this school's curriculum and hospital

Cons :

- Lived in this city for my entire life (all of my college friends left the city and I couldn't wait to leave once I got into medical school)
Do not like the city/environment at all

- Didn't like the students at revisit as much as students I've met at School 2

- Ranked/pre-clinical grades

All in all, very simply the only thing that would keep me here is the prospect of coming out with minimal to no debt. Other than that I'd probably be significantly more stressed in this environment, less happy, and less integrated with the student body.


School 2 -

Pros :

Perfect campus and environment for me

School culture is more aligned with my preferences/feel much more of a fit here

Opportunities here are greater for what I want to do in the future

Loved the students here

Completely new environment/specific city that I've always wanted to move to

Opportunities to work to offset loans (10k-20k during pre clinical years)

Cons :

Significantly more expensive
400 k in loans at graduation (all federal unsubsidized loans)


* Both are top 10 schools with comparable reputations (School 1 is probably a bit more reputable in medicine, School 2 probably a bit more reputable as an overall institution).


Any thoughts on this comparison would be very much appreciated, especially from those farther down the road (medical students, residents) with a better perspective on these parameters. How important would you weigh happiness versus this extent of debt? Crude calculations show that in a standard 10 yr repayment plan I'd be paying at least 6k per month which seems completely crippling. But I also know that I'll never have these years back, and so happiness may in this sense out weigh the price I'd have to pay.

 

[deleted307836]

Wait, you now have have the opportunity to go to a school where you can limit your debt to 80k? What am I missing?

 

[heartsink]

Didn't have time to read the whole thread so I apologize if this was dismissed but what options for repayment or loan forgiveness do the military offer? I thought I read about an agreement that can be made where you sign on for x number of years after your training and become a military doc at the rank of Captain and they pay your loans.

Is that still a thing?

 

[coldpheet]

and, like a dying star, this thread is finally imploding on itself

/thread

 

[Hemorrage]

if my only acceptance meant that much debt i'd drop it like it's fcking hot

why is this thread still going on?

Right because 600-700k long run debt is worth giving up a career that on average makes 10-15 million in a lifetime

 

[PL198]

Right because 600-700k long run debt is worth giving up a career that on average makes 10-15 million in a lifetime

You clearly have 0 understanding of present vs future value. Nor do you have any understanding of taxes. On average makes 10-15 million? If we say they make 250k/ yr gross, that's a net income of 165k a year, which only includes federal income tax and leaves things such as property tax and state income tax (roughly 5 % in the 41/50 states that have a state tax), so we'll play the numbers with 160k/ yr which is still an overestimate.

How many physicians do you know that work 63 years? 94 years? There's a really crude estimate at your whole 10-15 million comment. not to mention the value of this 10-15 million is significantly less than 10-15 million now. Plus the 10000 other expenses we aren't even talking about. Keep living in dream world though.

Seriously. You have 1500 posts, and you can't give an actual realistic earnings for a physician? How is that possible? Regardless, you have a lot to learn about how money works.

 

[RogueUnicorn]

Right because 600-700k long run debt is worth giving up a career that on average makes 10-15 million in a lifetime

refer to the post below yours hurdurr

some of us have enough outside interests and talents to pursue other careers

 

[katiemaude]

If you are having doubts this strong, I think you are doing the right thing ... even if people here are saying you should have thought of it sooner. If you know it's not for you, then getting out before you start borrowing is a smart decision. As long as you are OK with never becoming an MD, now that you've been accepted and are planning to turn down your offer, and you don't think you will have strong regrets, then go forth and prosper. Smart people can make a lot more money doing other things.

Anyone who is going to an inexpensive state school, has parents who can afford to help them pay, or is getting scholarships is very fortunate indeed. I am in the same boat ($80-90K COA) and I am terrified of the debt I am taking on. I am also a career changer and I know I cannot see myself doing something else. I have tried the other thing and I don't want it.

Best of luck.

 

[amad01]

Just FYI, Creighton is not generous with financial aid (and their tuition this year is 53K). And @coldpheet is right, you never know what tuition will look like until you get that financial aid letter. I had very surprising financial aid packages that made my expensive schools very cheap and my "cheap" schools not so cheap in the end.

So you can't trust tuition numbers on the MSAR or posted on the school's website? They just send out a surprise letter saying they hiked up the price? The cost of tuition can only go DOWN with financial aid packages, and if you steer clear of schools that are EXPENSIVE TO START WITH it can't get worse than you expect. Applying on a whim that you 'might get some aid' is foolish and can get you stuck like OP is. Don't apply to anywhere you wouldn't commit to based on the worst case scenario financial aid.

 

[lmn]

So you can't trust tuition numbers on the MSAR or posted on the school's website? They just send out a surprise letter saying they hiked up the price? The cost of tuition can only go DOWN with financial aid packages, and if you steer clear of schools that are EXPENSIVE TO START WITH it can't get worse than you expect. Applying on a whim that you 'might get some aid' is foolish and can get you stuck like OP is. Don't apply to anywhere you wouldn't commit to based on the worst case scenario financial aid.

If you're talking about the tuition going up, you probably looked at the 13-14 school year cost, pretty much every school's tuition increases a couple of percent every year. And just going by COA (unless you're talking about home state vs OOS private) isn't necessarily a good factor since it is fairly common for high tier schools especially to give a significant amount of scholarship to lower the cost to you. Sure you can use the average indebtedness from MSAR for a rough idea, but you can't accurately guess what schools are going to be cheaper for you until you have multiple acceptances and receive your financial aid package/scholarship offers. Ya it sucks, but that is just the way it is.

 

[circulus vitios]

You clearly have 0 understanding of present vs future value. Nor do you have any understanding of taxes. On average makes 10-15 million? If we say they make 250k/ yr gross, that's a net income of 165k a year, which only includes federal income tax and leaves things such as property tax and state income tax (roughly 5 % in the 41/50 states that have a state tax), so we'll play the numbers with 160k/ yr which is still an overestimate.

How many physicians do you know that work 63 years? 94 years? There's a really crude estimate at your whole 10-15 million comment. not to mention the value of this 10-15 million is significantly less than 10-15 million now. Plus the 10000 other expenses we aren't even talking about. Keep living in dream world though.

Seriously. You have 1500 posts, and you can't give an actual realistic earnings for a physician? How is that possible? Regardless, you have a lot to learn about how money works.

Finish residency at 30 and practice full time to age 65 yields $5.67 million in post-tax earnings on a $250k/yr salary ($162k/yr after federal and state taxes.) $300k between undergrad and med school loans for a ~$400k balance at the end of residency. It's hard to determine cumulative payments so let's say it's ~$730k at the most, which is the amount for a 20 year payment plan. Adjusted lifetime earnings of $4.94 million.

A career with a lifetime average of $100k/yr ($68k/yr post-tax), working from age 22 to 65, yields $2.92 million in post-tax earnings. Assume $30k in undergrad loans on the PAYE plan for cumulative payments of $37k and an adjusted lifetime earnings of $2.89 million.

 

[PL198]

Yet those comparisons mean nothing. They don't consider hours, stress, present value vs future value and many other factors. They sound cute in theory, but tell very little that is actually applicable.

 

[circulus vitios]

If you're talking about the tuition going up, you probably looked at the 13-14 school year cost, pretty much every school's tuition increases a couple of percent every year. And just going by COA (unless you're talking about home state vs OOS private) isn't necessarily a good factor since it is fairly common for high tier schools especially to give a significant amount of scholarship to lower the cost to you. Sure you can use the average indebtedness from MSAR for a rough idea, but you can't accurately guess what schools are going to be cheaper for you until you have multiple acceptances and receive your financial aid package/scholarship offers. Ya it sucks, but that is just the way it is.

Don't ever use average indebtedness figures because they figure in kids with rich parents. Per the AAMC, the average and median indebtedness for private US MD schools in 2013 was $181,058 and $190,000, respectively. The average tuition and fees alone for private schools in 2013 was $50,476/yr, so figure an average COA in the $70k/yr range. The numbers are total bull****.

Yet those comparisons mean nothing. They don't consider hours, stress, present value vs future value and many other factors. They sound cute in theory, but tell very little that is actually applicable.

In terms of raw earnings the physician will earn more.

 

[lmn]

Don't ever use average indebtedness figures because they figure in kids with rich parents. Per the AAMC, the average and median indebtedness for private US MD schools in 2013 was $181,058 and $190,000, respectively. The average tuition and fees alone for private schools in 2013 was $50,476/yr, so figure an average COA in the $70k/yr range. The numbers are total bull****.

People's parents pay for their COA at all schools, if one school has an average of $250k and the other $150k, either the school is overall cheaper/gives better aid/scholarships, or that school has a crap ton more of people with wealthy parents...

 

[circulus vitios]

People's parents pay for their COA at all schools, if one school has an average of $250k and the other $150k, either the school is overall cheaper/gives better aid/scholarships, or that school has a crap ton more of people with wealthy parents...

The vast majority of medical students receive little to no aid. It's all about rich parents.

 

[Fabio Lanzoni]

So you can't trust tuition numbers on the MSAR or posted on the school's website? They just send out a surprise letter saying they hiked up the price? The cost of tuition can only go DOWN with financial aid packages, and if you steer clear of schools that are EXPENSIVE TO START WITH it can't get worse than you expect. Applying on a whim that you 'might get some aid' is foolish and can get you stuck like OP is. Don't apply to anywhere you wouldn't commit to based on the worst case scenario financial aid.

lol dude feel free to do what you want. No need to get worked up. I told you the truth about the tuition at creighton since I actually got a financial aid package from them. That was for your own benefit. You can choose to believe or not; not my problem.

 

[lmn]

The vast majority of medical students receive little to no aid. It's all about rich parents.

Care to show some evidence of only a small minority receiving any kind of aid or scholarships?

 

[masaraksh]

Care to show some evidence of only a small minority receiving any kind of aid or scholarships?

I think the average indebtedness is the evidence. amirite?