What is a Surgeon?

[Winged Scapula]

I contend that doing surgical procedures does not make a surgeon. I say that you have to complete surgical training to call yourself a surgeon.

What if you retire and end up doing something non-surgical. Are you still a surgeon?

This was prompted by a discussion about hair transplantation in the Gen Residency forum in which I objected to a Family Practitioner who does HT calling himself a surgeon: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=564503

Am I wrong?

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[ekimsurfer]

I think you are absolutely correct. You have to pay your dues in anything to claim the fame.

 

[GreatSaphenous]

I agree totally. Doing a procedure or two does not make one a surgeon, because surgery is not operating it is a specialty that requires a specific knowledge base and takes a specific approach to patient care.

Of course, people love to wrap themselves in the surgical mantle. I went to a friend's wedding a while back and sat next to a gastroenterologist. This guy made sure that he always introduced himself as "Dr. so-so-so." As we were chatting he kept referring to the OR and taking patients there. Of course when I asked him what he does in the OR, he said "scopes." The conversation grew cold when I asked him why he doesn't just do those in the GI suite.

All for now, go back to your chowda!

I remain faithfully, the Great Saphenous!!!!!

 

[roja]

Surgeon= someone who completed a surgical residency
Internist=someone who completed an internal medicine residency
Pediatrician=someone who completed a pediatric residency...


you get the picture. An FP who does biopsies, hair transplants, whatever is still that: an FP who does X, Y or Z.

 

[JackADeli]

...Doing a procedure or two does not make one a surgeon, because surgery is not operating it is a specialty that requires a specific knowledge base and takes a specific approach to patient care...

I must agree as well. I would hope people have pride in their careers and NOT try to cover up what they are and hide behind an innacurate "title".

An FP can do a surgical procedure. That does not make them a "surgeon". I would go one step further and say trying to call yourself a surgeon because you do some procedures sells yourself short. A "real" FP should really be so much more then the lipoma removal/sebaceous cyst removal procedure they performed (or watched a med-student perform). Their base of training and experience to graduate from an FP program should be so much more. I would say it is the same for all specialties. A gastroenterologist should have so much more knowledge and training beyond what they do in the endo-suite. Why degrade your true profession by all but hiding it and pretending you are something you are not.

 

[JackADeli]

As a GMO...I should now refer to myself as a Family Practitioner.

I guess the question is...GMO, ?general medical officer? ?Did you complete any formal training program or just enough years to be licensed to practice? If the later, I would suggest the title would be "general practitioner". Family practitioner suggests you have completed a full FP training program. Surgeon suggests one completed a full training program in a predominant surgically based field require most training in the areas of diagnosis of surgical disease (and recognition of non-surgical Dz), pre-operative care, operative care, post-operative care, and longterm follow-up, etc...

 

[Castro Viejo]

In my mind, a surgeon is a person of last resort who can pick up a knife and fix a problem. Does it mean that one had to have gone through a surgical residency? Ideally, yes. If a gastroenterologist wants to refer to himself as a "surgeon," or even better, an "endoscopic surgeon," I challenge him to fix his own damn bowel perforation the next time he causes one.

I've met interventional radiologists who conveniently label their IR suites as "Operating Rooms" or "Image Guided Operating Theater" and refer to themselves as "surgeons" and interventional cardiologists who think they're "cardiac surgeons," but let's face it, when these guys run into problems, they'll call you, or me, or the next guy who's formally trained in the art of surgery. We can't do such a thing. We're it and it's our show when we get involved.

Call it ego-manical, pig-headed, narcissistic, or whatever other name you can come up with, but I am always the last line between a patient and certain death because I am a surgeon.

 

[mountainman123]

What about Ob/Gyn? They have not completed a "surgical residency" but claim themselves to be surgeons. Yay or nay

 

[smq123]

What about Ob/Gyn? They have not completed a "surgical residency" but claim themselves to be surgeons. Yay or nay

I'm going into OB/gyn, and I actually don't think that they should call themselves surgeons. I may be in the minority about this, though, among OB/gyns.

They're OB/gyns, and not surgeons. And that's fine - the two specialties do totally different things. They may choose a surgical solution to a patient's problem, but that still doesn't make them surgeons. [Edit: As Pilot Doc pointed out, my opinion runs contrary to the ACS, which DOES list Ob/gyns as "surgeons." Whatever. That's up to them.]

I agree that calling yourself a "surgeon" seems to be an ego thing....which is kind of pathetic. You should be proud of the specialty that you chose, and not try to call it something else.

 

[Pilot Doc]

What about Ob/Gyn? They have not completed a "surgical residency"

The American College of Surgeons doesn't share your opinion...

 

[Winged Scapula]

I'm going into OB/gyn...

What?!?!!

You know its not too late to switch to general surgery.

 

[Blade28]

Complete a surgical residency. Nothing less.

Edit: a little surprised to see smq123 agree with me here.

 

[PeepshowJohnny]

I agree, I believe the only people who should be able to identify themselves as a "surgeon" is one who has completed a surgical residency, General Surgery or a residency in a subspecialty (ENT, Ortho, Urology, Neurosurg, etc.).

However (And this is coming from an outsider, so feel free to tear me apart) I have to wonder if this pride about being a surgeon and all it entails is going to become detrimental to the field, and in particular generla surgery.

Here's my logic: The pride and sense of belonging that comes from calling oneself a surgeon seems to be most dominant in general surgeons. Sure, all surgeon makes fun of medicine for rounding until infinite etc., but in my limited experience, I notice this pride and protectiveness about the idea of being a surgeon comes most from general surgeons. I don't see it as much from specialists like ENT and Ortho..if anything they seem to self identify in their own groups and draw distinctions between themselves and general surgeons.

So why is this a problem, that general surgeons are so fiercely protective of being a surgeon? Because I think it's used to not address issues in the field. You think surgerical residents aren't treated correctly? Well, that's because you're not man/woman enough to be a surgeon. The top medical students aren't going into surgery as much as they used to? Screw 'em! They don't have what it takes to be a surgeon! Reimbursements are down in general surgery compared to to other surgical specialties? Well, if you're a good enough surgeon you shouldn't care about those things!

Now I know the discussion of general surgery's attractiveness has come up on this forum before, and the idea that is reached is "Surgery residencies still fill" and "Lots of students are willing to put up with rough training and decreasing compensation because they get pride in being in such a select fraternity". And I agree, that is definitely the case now. But I have to wonder if this is sustainable, especially since the trend among students for more lifestyle, more money is going to continue. I have to wonder if the allure of identifying oneself as a "surgeon" is going to stand the test of time.

 

[Just Applied]

Tired and crabby

 

[LovelyRita]

I answered with "tired and crabby", but agree that it's completing residency.

I don't like 3rd year, guys, I just don't. I'll have to find some of those happy surgery threads that talk about how cool things are when you're done.

 

[Winged Scapula]

I answered with "tired and crabby", but agree that it's completing residency.

I don't like 3rd year, guys, I just don't. I'll have to find some of those happy surgery threads that talk about how cool things are when you're done.

Really? 3rd year was the best at my program. Electives, very little call, you knew enough not to be an idiot but you didn't have the responsibilities of the 4th and 5th years.

It is better being done in some ways, although I miss the camaraderie of residency.

 

[JayDoc06]

I thought about this discussion the other day when taking care of a very ungrateful patient- I'm too important (and wealthy) to be injured like this and certainly too good for this hospital (University/Public) type patient. Are the treating residents who operate on and take care of patients considered surgeons enough to identify themselves as such to their patients if asked? This patient tried to refuse to be treated by anyone "in training" and only wanted "the surgeon" to treat them. The patient was informed that this entire hospital- top to bottom operated by heavily utilizing the services of residents/physicians in training and that the round the clock care provided will improve his outcome... He was totally unconvinced, jerk. Our exceedingly calm, never-excited attending calmed them down.

Got me thinking- can surgery residents refer to themselves as surgeons? After all, they do the operation, take of them, etc... My opinion is still no b/c despite taking all responsibilities pre/intra/post op we are still in a position of training to be surgeons.

Curious what everyone thinks.

 

[JackADeli]

...Are the treating residents who operate on and take care of patients considered surgeons enough to identify themselves as such to their patients if asked?

No. You are a resident. You should identify yourself as such. Declaring yourself to the patient as "surgeon" serves only one purpose and that is some sort of facade/disguise or over elevation of status on your part.

...This patient tried to refuse to be treated by anyone "in training" and only wanted "the surgeon" to treat them.

Your example just demonstrates my point. The patient was clear. He/she did NOT want a trainee (i.e. student or resident). He/she did not consider a resident "the surgeon". If you enter declaring yourself a surgeon or "the surgeon", you are deceiving this patient.

...can surgery residents refer to themselves as surgeons? After all, they do the operation, take of them, etc... My opinion is still no b/c despite taking all responsibilities pre/intra/post op we are still in a position of training to be surgeons...

Correct. The answer is "No". Also, do not fool yourself in believing your own "opinion" above. A resident by definition does NOT take all the responsibilities pre/intra/post op. If this is the case where you are training, your patients are being cheated, the residents are being cheated, insurance companies/etc... are being cheated. Short of gross negligence and failure (of resident) to communicate with the attending, ultimate/all responsibility really should fall to "the surgeon". Keep in mind... there are many nurses that have the "opinion" that since they are at bedside all day "caring for the patient" they are taking "all responsibility".

 

[GreatSaphenous]

The patient was clear. He/she did NOT want a trainee (i.e. student or resident). He/she did not consider a resident "the surgeon". [/QUOTE]

I agree that we should not deceive our patients by hiding our title, but we also should correct their underestimations of our skills whenever possible.

I am training at a community program, so I understand when a patient who sees a private surgeon in a private office hesitates when they meet the surgical resident. Typically though, they are receptive to another doctor helping to take care of them, especially if you come across as confident and knowledgeable.

However I do not think any patient can reasonably expect to walk into an university hospital and expect to be seen only by the "real doctor." On my surgery rotation as a MS3 I was less than impressed by the program director until the day I heard him tell a patient that if she would object to residents taking part in her care, she would have to go somewhere else.

Bottom line, know who you are, do your best for your patients, and don't let any man of dust make you feel small.

Now go back to your potatos au gratin.
I am the Great Saphenous

 

[radslooking]

i agree with correcting misperceptions about your role. i think patients get the feeling that we are there to practice on them, like a sort of science experiment. if only life were that much fun.

 

[H_Caulfield]

I'm going into OB/gyn, and I actually don't think that they should call themselves surgeons. I may be in the minority about this, though, among OB/gyns.

They're OB/gyns, and not surgeons. And that's fine - the two specialties do totally different things. They may choose a surgical solution to a patient's problem, but that still doesn't make them surgeons. [Edit: As Pilot Doc pointed out, my opinion runs contrary to the ACS, which DOES list Ob/gyns as "surgeons." Whatever. That's up to them.]

I agree that calling yourself a "surgeon" seems to be an ego thing....which is kind of pathetic. You should be proud of the specialty that you chose, and not try to call it something else.

I'd have to say that an OB/Gyn being considered a surgeon would depend entirely on whether they'd done a gyn onc fellowship. It's hard to watch somebody to a total abdominal hysterectomy and then deny that they're a surgeon.

In all other instances, I agree: OB/Gyn = no surgeon.

 

[SLUser11]

I'd have to say that an OB/Gyn being considered a surgeon would depend entirely on whether they'd done a gyn onc fellowship. It's hard to watch somebody to a total abdominal hysterectomy and then deny that they're a surgeon.

In all other instances, I agree: OB/Gyn = no surgeon.

OB/GYNs are surgeons. I say this because they perform surgery. It's ridiculous to think that we are the only ones with the right to this precious title........

Anyway, since when do you have to do a gyn onc fellowship to do a hysterectomy?

 

[lowbudget]

Man, I'm an FP, and I say, screw that, you don't get to call yourself anything until you're Board Certified! Any numbnut can call themselves anything, pay for an ad, and market themselves as such... there are laws that checks these types of practices. This HT guy really is toeing a very fine line.

Here's the kicker for me:
If you look at his CV, he's "board certified" in hair restoration surgery by some non-ABMS board. That's where he can get away with the title of "surgeon", like it or not. And skin procedures are within the scope of family medicine. And the hospital he has privileges at probably credentialed him on those grounds.

A lot of dermatologists will call themselves surgeons also, but we tend to let them get away with it. Don't know why.

When Howard Dean was running for president, he was trying to get all grassroots, down-in-the-trenches by calling himself a family physician. Dude is an internist, but America doesn't understand "internal medicine" much less what the word "internist" mean.

People call themselves all sorts of crap. There's this guy in my town who was trained as a pathologist, got in trouble with some governing body, lost his hospital privileges, etc., and now works at a cash-only clinic that serves the uninsured. He calls himself a GP... which, I guess is allowed, since he did complete 1 year of internship and he has a license (albeit, restricted...).

There's this other guy in town who was an anesthesiologist, and oops, got addicted to opioids, got in trouble, and now has a clinic where he works as a GP.

People don't know the difference between GP and FP. These guys aren't asked to keep with the latest standard of care or evidence that the board does with all the CME and tests.

Scary.

Well, I'm not surprised that surgeons are pissed this FP guy calls himself a surgeon. I would be too if some numbnut who didn't train and board certify FM calls themselves a family doc.

Anyways, interesting thread... trivial, but interesting.

 

[radslooking]

I'd have to say that an OB/Gyn being considered a surgeon would depend entirely on whether they'd done a gyn onc fellowship. It's hard to watch somebody to a total abdominal hysterectomy and then deny that they're a surgeon.

In all other instances, I agree: OB/Gyn = no surgeon.

huh? OB/Gyn definitely does surgery. They may not perform the full scope of things that some others do, but what the hell, they are doing surgeries.

but no, any FP who does anything cannot call himself a surgeon. as someone said above, he/she is an FP who does some surgery. You have to have primary training in a surgical field to be called a surgeon. (and complete a residency)

 

[GreatSaphenous]

huh? OB/Gyn definitely does surgery. They may not perform the full scope of things that some others do, but what the hell, they are doing surgeries.

but no, any FP who does anything cannot call himself a surgeon. as someone said above, he/she is an FP who does some surgery. You have to have primary training in a surgical field to be called a surgeon. (and complete a residency)

Don't your two paragraphs contradict? OB/Gyn = surgeon because they are definitely doing surgeries, but an FP doing surgeries can't call himself the same?

Now if you wish to argue that OB/Gyn residents do their training in a "surgical field" then that's a different issue. But I may still beg to disagree.

I realize there are OB/Gyns who do fine work and are well trained. Yet the bottom line is that this is a four year residency, which (at least at my med school) was split equally between clinic, L&D, and surgery. That calculates out to 1 1/3 years of surgical training. In other words look at the second year residents in your program. By the end of this month, they should be qualified to operate independently.

All for now, go back to your root beer floats.
I am the Great Saphenous!!!!!

 

[radslooking]

Don't your two paragraphs contradict? OB/Gyn = surgeon because they are definitely doing surgeries, but an FP doing surgeries can't call himself the same?

Now if you wish to argue that OB/Gyn residents do their training in a "surgical field" then that's a different issue. But I may still beg to disagree.

I realize there are OB/Gyns who do fine work and are well trained. Yet the bottom line is that this is a four year residency, which (at least at my med school) was split equally between clinic, L&D, and surgery. That calculates out to 1 1/3 years of surgical training. In other words look at the second year residents in your program. By the end of this month, they should be qualified to operate independently.

All for now, go back to your root beer floats.
I am the Great Saphenous!!!!!

what FP do you know who is doing true surgical procedures often?? If they are doing 5 appy's and gallbladders a week, ok. But not rinky-dink stuff on the skin.

 

[Habeed]

When you hit on the hot chick in the bar, and you are a surgical resident somewhere in the middle of your training, are you a surgeon then?

I would argue for a yes : exaggerating your accomplishments when you are feeling horney is a tradition that goes back hundreds of thousands of years. And anyways, it is mostly true...a surgical resident in the middle of training has done lots of surgeon stuff, even if they can't handle big cases on their own.

 

[Winged Scapula]

When you hit on the hot chick in the bar, and you are a surgical resident somewhere in the middle of your training, are you a surgeon then?

I would argue for a yes : exaggerating your accomplishments when you are feeling horney is a tradition that goes back hundreds of thousands of years. And anyways, it is mostly true...a surgical resident in the middle of training has done lots of surgeon stuff, even if they can't handle big cases on their own.

Coming from the Pre-Med.

Interesting that you are the ONLY one who considers this scenario to be true. Everyone else who is actually a medical student, surgical resident or attending think you have to finish a surgical residency to call yourself a surgeon.

Besides, given the pedantics you engaged in within the thread about what makes a surgeon excellent (ie, an excellent surgeon = only the one with the best outcomes resulting in longer life for patients [a sometimes impossible outcome], why would you allow for a less than accurate definition here?

 

[Habeed]

Coming from the Pre-Med.

Oh, snap.

You have a point. In one thread, I am saying there is one true definition for a person who is excellent at surgery. And I didn't say the excellent surgeon gets impossible outcomes, I said that they have the best chance of adding the most usable years to someone on average. The best surgeon in the world will have mortalities, some on the table even. He or she just has a better chance than anyone else, and he or she will not risk a surgery that could result in disability or death if the risk:reward ratio is not the best available for that specific patient.

I argue that this life and death aspect of it wipes any other definition off the map.

A surgeon performs surgery as his or her primary purpose. Yes, that means a resident surgeon is a surgeon. Same with a junior attending. But the question is not whether someone is a surgeon, it is when it is appropriate to call oneself one. And that depends entirely on situation, there is no universal definition.

And WS, I agree : a resident surgeon shouldn't call himself a surgeon to a patient without making it clear that he is a resident. That is completely different than telling a drunk chick at a bar that you are a surgeon.

 

[Winged Scapula]

And WS, I agree : a resident surgeon shouldn't call himself a surgeon to a patient without making it clear that he is a resident. That is completely different than telling a drunk chick at a bar that you are a surgeon.

I fail to see how it is different. You are presupposing that the definition of a surgeon depends on the utility of the situation. I say if you define it as "A", it stays "A" regardless of the situation. You are not a surgeon when convenient and only a resident when you are legally obligated to be truthful.

Its ok to tell the drunk chick at a bar you are a surgeon, even when you aren't, because it might help you get laid? AFAIK, its lying and no different than telling the patient you are the surgeon who will be performing their surgery when you are a resident or medical student (which would be a lie as well).

 

[Leukocyte]

The way I see it,

a "Surgeon" = a physician (regardless of specialty) who does a surgical procedure...Limited by his training/knowledge.

a "General Surgeon" = a physicain who COMPLETED a general surgery residency...with a WIDE, standardized, and specific knowledge base in the field of general surgery.

a "General Practitioner" = a physician (regardless of specialty) who does some primary care medicine....Limited by his training/knowledge.

a "Family Practitioner" = a physician who COMPLETED a Familiy Medicine residency and practices the full spectrum of primary care medicine.....with a WIDE, standardized, and specific knowledge base in the field of family medicine.

 

[Eyesore]

Let me preface this post by saying that I don't really care about the title "surgeon" or any of the ego issues that go along with it.

However, after reading some of these posts, I wondered if you surgeons had objections to ophthalmologists calling themselves "eye surgeons," or to take it a step further, retina doctors calling themselves "vitreoretinal surgeons?" If so, what should they call themselves? I mean, surely you guys realize that some of the procedures they do aren't just piddly skin biopsies. They include repair of ruptured globes, enucleations, cataract surgery, retinal detachment repair, orbital reconstruction, etc.

Anyway, I was just curious as to what the "surgeons" thought about this.

 

[Winged Scapula]

I do not have a problem with ophthalmologists calling themselves eye surgeons.

 

[Leukocyte]

I do not have a problem with ophthalmologists calling themselves eye surgeons.

Yes...the same applies to the use of the word "physician" or "doctor".

Imagine there is a pregnant lady on board a plane. She is G5P3104, diabetic, and her water suddenly broke. Ten minutes later, her large baby's head is sticking out her vaginal vault...and it is turning blue, very blue, very fast. The flight attendant anxiously calls "is there a doctor on the plane!" Who should answer her call, AND identify himself as a "physician" who CAN help solve this VERY DANGEROUS medical emergency!

-An ophthalmologist?
-A Pathologist?
-A Radiologist?
-An Orthopedic Surgeon?
-An Internist?
-A Family Practitioner?

Who is "the doctor" in THIS situation?

 

[Castro Viejo]

Yes...the same applies to the use of the word "physician" or "doctor".

Imagine there is a pregnant lady on board a plane. She is G5P3104, diabetic, and her water suddenly broke. Ten minutes later, her large baby's head is sticking out her vaginal vault...and it is turning blue, very blue, very fast. The flight attendant anxiously calls "is there a doctor on the plane!" Who should answer her call, AND identify himself as a "physician" who CAN help solve this VERY DANGEROUS medical emergency!

-An ophthalmologist?
-A Pathologist?
-A Radiologist?
-An Orthopedic Surgeon?
-An Internist?
-A Family Practitioner?

Who is "the doctor" in THIS situation?

Turn on your iPod and read the in-flight magazine.

It's not worth the headache to play superhero when you're "The Doctor" who can't do **** in this situation. You could just push it back in or yank on it until the head falls off, as I would imagine a well trained OB/GYN would be limited to doing.

 

[smq123]

Yes...the same applies to the use of the word "physician" or "doctor".

Imagine there is a pregnant lady on board a plane. She is G5P3104, diabetic, and her water suddenly broke. Ten minutes later, her large baby's head is sticking out her vaginal vault...and it is turning blue, very blue, very fast. The flight attendant anxiously calls "is there a doctor on the plane!" Who should answer her call, AND identify himself as a "physician" who CAN help solve this VERY DANGEROUS medical emergency!

-An ophthalmologist?
-A Pathologist?
-A Radiologist?
-An Orthopedic Surgeon?
-An Internist?
-A Family Practitioner?

Who is "the doctor" in THIS situation?

Uhhh...the physician who is level-headed enough to try and logically figure out what to do next.

Worst case scenario, find a sharp knife or scissors (which, granted, is hard to do in the post-9/11 airplane industry), splash it with alcohol, and cut the episiotomy. If you have to, break the baby's clavicles and deliver it.

Even if she's diabetic, that baby would have to be pretty freaking huge in order to have CPD with a mom that's had 4 other kids. Unless they were c-sections, or they were all 5-pound babies (which is doubtful), she'll shoot that kid right out.

I think that, particularly in the scenario given, it's a mistake to assume that FPs in particular have an advantage when it comes to emergent OB situations. (What about the OB/gyns?! ) Honestly, if a med student can come up with some sort of plan for that example, I would imagine that other physicians could too.

 

[MossPoh]

Yes...the same applies to the use of the word "physician" or "doctor".

Imagine there is a pregnant lady on board a plane. She is G5P3104, diabetic, and her water suddenly broke. Ten minutes later, her large baby's head is sticking out her vaginal vault...and it is turning blue, very blue, very fast. The flight attendant anxiously calls "is there a doctor on the plane!" Who should answer her call, AND identify himself as a "physician" who CAN help solve this VERY DANGEROUS medical emergency!

-An ophthalmologist?
-A Pathologist?
-A Radiologist?
-An Orthopedic Surgeon?
-An Internist?
-A Family Practitioner?

Who is "the doctor" in THIS situation?

A similar situation happened to my dad on the plane. My mom elbowed my dad real hard and said "You're a doctor, go help!". He simply turned his head to her and replied "I'm a radiologist. What the hell am I going to do? Give me her CT and I will help.". Luckily someone else stood up, because I assume he still would've felt guilty. It might seem like an easy fix when it is still in recent memory, but remove yourself from medical school by 44 years and you begin to worry about forgetting something critical.

 

[wkv2101]

What do you guys think about OMFS (with an MD)? Surgeons? Also, are they even doctors or more like highly trained dentists?

 

[Winged Scapula]

They are Max-Facs surgeons. We've discussed this before.

 

[wkv2101]

So is that a yes on the surgeon question?

 

[aphistis]

What do you guys think about OMFS (with an MD)? Surgeons? Also, are they even doctors or more like highly trained dentists?

MD or none, an OMFS is a surgeon. The best way to decide, of course, is to see for yourself. Go watch a double-jaw orthognathic case, or a face-vs.-steering wheel trauma reconstruction, and see what you think at the end.

 

[ESU_MD]

What do you guys think about OMFS (with an MD)? Surgeons? Also, are they even doctors or more like highly trained dentists?

where I come from, we called them dental surgeons- which is a compliment. I used to think they were just glorified dentists, but I saw they do some involved complex cases, thus earning an attenuated surgeon status. They have trained hard in their field and are indeed Doctors. In fact, I think in the dental world, these guys are the top guns.

That being said, most of these guys DID NOT try to pass themselves off as medical surgeons. 99% of the time, they just wanted to do their cases and go home like the rest of us, and are pretty cool.

They are certainly much more advanced than a general dentist, but in my mind they dont meet the threshold of being called a surgeon without a qualifier of dental surgeon, OMFS surgeon, maxfac surgeon or whatever is in vogue at your hospital to give them their props.

A surgeon has graduated medical school and completed surgical residency.

 

[Winged Scapula]

So is that a yes on the surgeon question?

Yes, they are dental or Max-Facs surgeons.

Telling people you are a surgeon without that qualifier is obsfucation, IMHO, as it implies you are a general surgeon.

 

[ChandutheMagici]

exaggerating your accomplishments when you are feeling horney is a tradition that goes back hundreds of thousands of years. And anyways, it is mostly true...

That's hilarious. Especially when the discussion started about this guy..


http://www.hairdr.com/images/staff.jpg


Chandu The Veterinary Surgeon (I cut my dog's toe nails today)

 

[JaggerPlate]

Just wanted to say a few things, as I have done quite a bit of research in HT.

1. No, this guy is not a surgeon. He is an FP who did a preceptorship with the late PC Chambers (big papa of original plugs). Where a lot of the confusion comes in, in my opinion, is the 'American Board of Hair Restoration Surgery,' which is an ORGANIZATION, not abms, which sets up guidelines for people doing the procedue to be certified by the board. It's very misleading in my opinion to call it a 'board' instead of an 'academy' or 'organization' like the cosmetic pepole do. However, people become certified by the board, I think this is where the need to use the 'surgeon' title comes in. Is it accurate? No. However, HT is a business where you don't get paid unless you are operating, and some of the marketing schemes make this point crystal clear.
(www.abhrs.com)

However, I will say one thing about the board, and that is at least they are trying to establish some set of standards (you can read about them) for people doing HT, as it is a wildly unregulated field that leads to many people ditch life-long fields in order to make (what they think) will be easy cash.

2. HT is funny. Some people are very, very legit and others are flat out crooks/hacks who honestly disfigure people. The guys who are legit have 2 month waiting lists, do one procedue a day, make an average of 6-10k per procedure, working 9-5 with (what I can only assume) is farily low over head (you do the math). The shady guys suffer and slump down to bad, bad things to keep their practices afloat. The best orginization to see the good guys is www.hairtransplantnetwork.com. The guy who runs it, Pat, is very genuine and wants to help people through the process. The site recommends surgeons (which Pat personally visits, makes them post pictures every few weeks, regulates etc) and the docs on the site are ones who dedicate themselves to HT, and produce natural results. A few of the best in my opinion:

Alan Feller, DO : www.fellermedical.com
Robert M. Bernstein, MD, FAAD (prof of derm at Columbia): www.bernsteinmedical.com
Scott Alexander, MD: www.biltmoresurgical.com/
Victor Hasson and Jerry Wong, MDs : www.hassonandwong.com/ ... etc
(all of the doctors on the site are very good, these are just a few that produce amazing results).

3. With that said, most of these guys refer to themsevles in different ways and a lot come from different backgrounds (derm, PRS, facial plastics, g-surg, FP, Rads, intership -> straight into HT training etc). Some more controversary with the 'what makes a surgeon' question in my opinion comes from some past problems in CA where non-physicians were doing follicular unit grafting via the strip procedure, which involves cutting the scalp, which was illegal for a non-physician ... and defined surgery as any cutting of the skin, which had to be done by a physician. So again, there is another reason where the surgeon lines become blurred.

4. With all that said, I don't believe that the guys who didn't complete a surgical residency are surgeons, but I also don't believe that you need to be a surgeon to do HT surgery or call yourself a hair restoration specialist (which I know really isn't the argument). I don't think the non-surgeons should be advertising themselves as surgeons, but I also think putting that you are ABHRS certified or did a 'fellowship' in HT surgery is false, and will lead people to believe that you are a 'surgeon.' Also, if anyone is thinking about going into HT ... if you do it right, you will probably find success. If you try to half-ass it or jump without figuring a few things out, you'll probably fail or become a shady doc ... which is why there is a lot of questionable stuff happening around the field.

 

[Black Surgeon]

What about Ob/Gyn? They have not completed a "surgical residency" but claim themselves to be surgeons. Yay or nay

YAY (do your research)

Ob/GYN get surgical training during their residency. Furthermore, everyone names the Ob/Gyns doing Gynecologic Oncology but don't forget the female Pelvic Medicine and Reconstructive Surgery fellows and the gender-reassigment guys.

The Ob/GYNs are def surgeons.

 

[Winged Scapula]

NAY (do your research)

Ob/GYN get surgical training during their residency. Furthermore, everyone names the Ob/Gyns doing Gynecologic Oncology but don't forget the female Pelvic Medicine and Reconstructive Surgery fellows and the gender-reassigment guys.

The Ob/GYNs are def surgeons.

So I am confused.

Is it a yay or nay?

Most gender reassignment surgeons, of which there are few, are not Ob-Gyns but rather Uro or Plastics trained. I would venture that once you are primarily doing gender reassignment you are no longer an Ob-Gyn.

 

[Black Surgeon]

So I am confused.

Is it a yay or nay?

Most gender reassignment surgeons, of which there are few, are not Ob-Gyns but rather Uro or Plastics trained. I would venture that once you are primarily doing gender reassignment you are no longer an Ob-Gyn.

lol my fault, I MEANT YAY!!!. Ok you may be right about the fact that most are "Uro or plastic trained". However, one of top gender re-assigment surgeons in the US is an OB/GYN: Dr. Marci Bowers who is listed as a top American surgeon. I don't even think she did a fellowship in reconstructive.

 

[Winged Scapula]

lol my fault, I MEANT YAY!!!. Ok you may be right about the fact that most are "Uro or plastic trained". However, one of top gender re-assigment surgeons in the US is an OB/GYN: Dr. Marci Bowers who is listed as a top American surgeon. I don't even think she did a fellowship in reconstructive.

Funny you should mention her. I originally included her name in my response as she is one of the few Ob-Gyn trained gender reassignment surgeons (and trained many others).

 

[Black Surgeon]

Funny you should mention her. I originally included her name in my response as she is one of the few Ob-Gyn trained gender reassignment surgeons (and trained many others).

So wait, now I'm confused.

Do you agree that OB/GYNs are surgeons or not?

Yes, they are dental or Max-Facs surgeons.

Telling people you are a surgeon without that qualifier is obsfucation, IMHO, as it implies you are a general surgeon.

So would it be safe to say that OB/GYNs are Gynecologic surgeons?

are the OB/GYN trained Urogynecology guys not surgeons?